Woah there. Photios Kontoglou was one of Greek Orthodoxy's most famous modern Iconographers, and he is talking about Eastern Orthodox Iconography vs Western Christian Religious art. He is not talking specifically about Protestant asthetic- and neither am I. I was simply trying to say that, in context, Photios Kontoglou's quoted statement is in fact an accurate observation. He is comparing Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox devotional art.Keble said:It's not really fair to take a Caravaggio and some other Italian Catholic painter as representing a Protestant aesthetick,
They may have rejected the imagery, but being children of Roman Catholicism, have they rejected the philosophy and theology behind it?Keble said:It's not really fair to take a Caravaggio and some other Italian Catholic painter as representing a Protestant aesthetick, though. A really hardline Protestant would of course reject liturgical imagery at all.
It's not even about "artistic taste". I used western art to make the carnal aspect visible to the audience. But that's just the tip of the iceberg.Again, a Protestant might say (and with quite a bit of justification actually) that the differences in artistic taste between Constantinople and Rome are insignificant in comparison to their common acceptance of ornament and imagery in the church.
Well, I have noticed that you posted the same first two sentences on at least 2 other EO fora. While the E-cafe hasn't gotten involved, the other one that doesn't allow non-EO to engage in general discussions has given you some response (and you put it in a section that is supposed to be EO only). One wonders if you added your other sentences here since you knew that there are more no-EO/OO that would read it and that they are allowed to respond. :-\ One also wonders why you post the exact same things on more then one forum.Matthew777 said:Have you ever noticed how most Protestants, no matter how you address the truth of the Orthodox faith, refuse to listen? It's quite bothersome. Since when is closedmindedness a tenet of the Bible?
I have no anger nor hatred against our Protestant neighbors, but I hope they could be more open to new knowledge and perspectives. And it's not just me, I've spoken with Orthodox clergymen about how, in their own experiences, Protestants can be almost completely unreachable. What's the deal?
Indeed it will not. No one likes to be told such things.ozgeorge said:For example, calling an entire group of people "Willfully Ignorant" is not going to make them want to hear you out on anything.
An over-generalization to say the least. One might suggest that people may have considered many facts before making up their minds.Matthew777 said:I find that too many contemporary Americans in general share the mentality of "I've made up my mind, don't bother me with the facts."
Aren't able? There is much more subtlety and shades of grey in this world then you would seem to realize. As to "new information" how do you know that it is "new" to them? Perhaps they know more about it then you think, but do not agree with your particular point of view.Democrats and Republicans, Protestants and Catholics, Southerners and "Yankees," etc. Everything has become so polarized that people aren't able to consider new information that is contrary to their own worldview.
Well, people have their own experiences and lives and what they know. Why should anyone expect others to know the same things as oneself? I will give you an example. As people here know, I grew up in Montana. It is a huge state with a low population. There are, to my knowledge about 6 EO churchs in that state which is roughly the size of the mid-atlantic and New ENgland states with some room for Ohio and Virginia and all of them are in a major city/town. There are lots more RC churches as well as Lutheran (lots of settlers from Scandinavia and Germany) and some Episcopalian and others. Why would it be reasonable to expect a person who has grown up and lived hundreds of miles from an EO church or person to know much or anything about the subject? So if they see a church with candles and paintings and vestments, it's possible that the closest reference they have is something RC?serb1389 said:ME TOO!!!!!!!! I can't tell you how many times this has happened to me. I end up saying things like "RC's arn't really THAT bad" Actually, in a lot of ways they really have things going for them. And its not like we orthodox don't have our issues either...
Anyway, it really is amazing how a lot of Protestants that i've talked to automatically associate Orthodoxy with Catholicism (roman). Which brings me to the original question, why is it that they can't seam to break from their "world view"??
Could you explain this a bit more, please? The idea that someone would get upset with the information that Jesus is loving and caring etc is ummm alarming to me. Thank you.If you try telling a hard-core Serbian person who Christ REALLY is (loving, carring, wants you to take communion) they might flip a lid. So it goes for anyone who has entrenched themselves in one view.
Just speaking for myself, I wasn't always a Christian and making the change sort of required revising my worldview just a tad.Ebor said:How open are you to "new information" that is contrary to your "worldview"?
There's also the chance that the person talking to them is showing some missing threads or holes, as it were, depending on their attitude.calligraphqueen said:Just pulling on the many lose threads of their faith while they are at your door isn't enough. Most will walk away not even seeing their nakedness,
??? :-\ I can't say that that description fits most of the people I know who belong to any kind of a Protestant Church. It certainly doesn't apply to my family.It's FAR easier to remain a protestant that drives a mercedes, lives in a million dollar home and a vacation home, and has the rapture to hang onto.
And was it the case that making the change wasn't a matter of someone coming up to you, then calling you "willfully ignorant" if you didn't immediately agree? That it took some time and effort to work things through?BoredMeeting said:Just speaking for myself, I wasn't always a Christian and making the change sort of required revising my worldview just a tad.
I agree with you on this, Nektarios. Respecting another person leads to treating them with at least a modicum of charity and courtesy. But I've seen too many cases of patronizing disdain for the "Other".ÃŽÂÃŽÂµÃŽÂºÃâ€žÃŽÂ¬ÃÂÃŽÂ¹ÃŽÂ¿Ãâ€š said:This is one of the best things posted on this forum, IMO. Many Orthodox apologists seem to be lacking even basic respect for those whom they seek to convert.
It might have more impact it you asked that of someone who actually conducted themselves in such a manner, don't you think? :-\Ebor said:And was it the case that making the change wasn't a matter of someone coming up to you, then calling you "willfully ignorant" if you didn't immediately agree?
WIthout denying that something "resonates" with people converting to Protestantism, I would add that, particularly the Evangelicals, pur forth a strong marketing push for converts. I am not talking just about those people that knock on your door or stop you on the street. I am talking about marketing as in advertising, calling, appealing to the person. In fact the latter is the big one with Evangelicals. Come to Jesus and he'll meet your needs, heal your shame, get you a Cadillac, etc. It's great marketing and its focused on the person. Now even some Evangelical church services are tailored to appeal to "seekers." These services are light on theology and big on stage show type productions with music, skits, interpritive dance and preaching that comes right from the Comedy channel. This hyper focus on the individual removes primary focus from God. But it is appealing. Who doesn't like to attend a party, meeting, etc. where you are doted over, listened to, hugged. (Please, I know I've been hugged, kissed and doted over in an Orthodox church but this was not the main reason that I attend Orthodox liturgy. My biggest appeal to me about Orthodoxy is it seeks to focus one energies toward God, the saints and the church and away from the person or individual. Not entirely, but I think you get my drift. But I would go further to say that the focus on the individual is also an American cultural phenomenon. America was founded and built on rugged individualism. Our "icons" are the lone cowboy on the horse, easy rider on the motorcycle, the scrappy rags to riches millionaire. I do not know if we are failing so much as we are presenting, as someone noted earlier, a different brand of Orthodoxy. I am afraid that to some extent the brand that we represent is that a convert is a thoughtful person. Someone who has struggled with their faith and read about the history and sought more than the facile trappings of what passes for American Christianity and these people are a minority in this culture which wants everything fast and easy.What is it in Protestantism that resonates with these people and where are we failing? That seems like a worthy question for consideration.