Theological hot takes that can get you in trouble with your fellow brethren

[Wandile]

So the thread is self explanatory. What theological positions do you hold about Christianity, your church or even an opposite church, or any matter of theology that could get you in trouble with your fellow Christians or communicants?

1) I think St Augustine was the greatest of the church fathers and God favored him the most which is why his writings became the most influential in Christianity of all the church fathers.

2) I think Origen might be in heaven (I certainly hope he is)

3) Vatican II was okay

4) Oreintal orthodox are much closer to catholics than they are to Eastern Orthodox and will establish communion
Rome first.

5) Modern Eastern Orthodoxy, in following Fr John Romanides, is pelagian and Romanides was honestly a heretic (This one will get me in trouble

6) Rome was better off translating the Tridentine rite into vernacular than letting Bugnini issue his reforms.

7) Russia will establish communion with Rome before Greece does.

8) The earth is only a few thousand years old and macro-evolution is nonsense from the pits of hell.

9) Moscow and Constantinople are two sides of the same coin. They hide behind theology but both just want top spot in the EO communion.

10) Constantinople is moving towards a more catholic understanding is primacy.

 

[Saxon]

I suspect that, for me, this thread will feature rolling contributions. For now, however:

1. The Roman Catholic Church possesses grace and valid sacraments.

2. There will never, ever, be reunification or restoration of communion between Rome and Orthodoxy, as it would require one party to acknowledge falling into error of dogma, which is impossible.

3. Ethnophyletism and ethnocentrism are rampant, more so than even most critics like to admit, and are threatening the viability of the church.

4. The EP is becoming a literal papacy.

5. The clergy and hierarchy don't possess any higher spiritual authority than the laypeople, and are not immune to criticism or rebuke by anyone.

6. Practices rooted in New Age spirituality, including white-washed western Yoga, are rooted in demonic paganism and false religion and cannot be practiced by Christians.

7. Fr. Seraphim Rose is a saint and his lack of official elevation is an embarrassment.

 

[Luke]

1. I would be OK with using multiple spoons, cups, or some other innovative way to distribute communion in a way to minimize the risk of infectious diseases.

2. Sometimes I also have concerns with the Ecumenical Patriarch trying to become an Eastern pope.

 

[Wandile]

Oh yeah

11) Extraordinary ministers of holy communion, pious people as they are, should never have been allowed and should be banned.

12) Allowing reception of communion in the hand diminished faith in the real presence.

 

[hecma925]

Rome is the Whore of Babylon.

 

[Maximus the Forgetful]

Catholic here.

1: There are seven Ecumenical Councils. Anything above seven is a synod of the Latin Church.

2: Post-schism Orthodox saints are worthy of veneration.

3: Communion in the hand isn't as bad as people think, assuming it is done reverently.

4: Today's "traditional Catholicism" is yesterday's modernism.

 

[Saxon]

8. Post-schism Catholic saints are worthy of veneration. I have particular affinities for St. Francis of Assisi, St. Thomas More and the British martyrs, St. John Henry Newman, and the wealth of Canadian saints, many of them martyrs, from the French Jesuit and Ursuline Orders in New France.

 

[Asteriktos]

1) I don't believe new doctrines get added to the faith, but I do believe in the development of the Church's collective understanding and articulation of doctrine

2) I don't believe that fundamental moral principles change, but I do acknowledge that the specifics of Christian moral codes have (and I believe were right to) change depending on circumstances

3) My views on the afterlife are... a whole thing

4) The Scriptural texts aren't inerrant but they are infallible; there isn't a set-in-stone list of books in the canon but the boundaries are fixed

 

[TheTrisagion]

1. I'm 60% Orthodox Christian and 40% agnostic
2. Nihilism is a necessary journey
3. It would probably be better for Orthodoxy if the Ecumenical Patriarchate no longer existed
4. I think that interpreting hell as the consuming fire of God is probably wishful thinking, although I hope I'm wrong.
5. EO and RC are never, ever, ever... getting back together
6. Christianity will probably be almost extinct within the next 100 years.

 

[biro]

I like naps.

Half of you should switch to decaf.

 

[noahzarc1]

1. Protestantism is beyond repair
2. The Catholic Church follows the Bible more than Protestants ever will
3. Western Rite Orthodoxy is the elephant in the room for Eastern Orthodox
4. Sedevacantism is a heresy
5. Eastern Orthodox will never accept the Filioque or Papal Supremacy
6. There will not be a reunion between East and West (though it is nice to imagine what a church that never split would be like.)
7. 1054 is not the date of the schism. Probably wasn't even really in the 13th century. Who knows if there really ever was a split.
8. When I think of the purest and most genuine form of Orthodoxy I think of the Copts.
9. I love the eastern monastic traditions.
10. Mor Ephrem for President. Hecma for Press Secretary.

 

[Ainnir]

I'd vote for them.

 

[Asteriktos]

Ima get my money's worth out of the new quote feature! But only one topic per person or this would get out of hand.

9) Moscow and Constantinople are two sides of the same coin. They hide behind theology but both just want top spot in the EO communion.

7. Fr. Seraphim Rose is a saint and his lack of official elevation is an embarrassment.

Why the delay, do you think?

1. I would be OK with using multiple spoons, cups, or some other innovative way to distribute communion in a way to minimize the risk of infectious diseases.

This seems to bring up several issues: can the eucharist transmit sickness, can the instruments used to provide the eucharist transmit sickness, and can sickness be received from being in the same space as the eucharist (as liquid turns to vapor). I don't claim to know.

Rome is the Whore of Babylon.

Evidence?

1: There are seven Ecumenical Councils. Anything above seven is a synod of the Latin Church.

This is as interesting as when Orthodox say there are more than seven. So in a scenario of coming together, would each side have to accept the councils of the other side totally, not at all, in spirit if not letter, or...?

1. I'm 60% Orthodox Christian and 40% agnostic

Yeah I know the feeling. I tried to think up an appropriate meme or joke or question, but I got nothing. You're always welcome here

I like naps.

Who would disagree with this? I say unto them: "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should [nap], bring hither, and slay them before me." (Lk. 19:27)

3. Western Rite Orthodoxy is the elephant in the room for Eastern Orthodox

How come?

 

[recent convert]

1. I think there was a certain, troubling psychology in the Church of Carthage that affected Western Christianity ( since Tertullian?). St. Augustine is clearly a saint but seems to pose deep problems too ( not blaming him of course). St. Augustine, inadvertently I think, sewed the seeds of Calvinism. Calvinism, I believe, is the bad fruit of Carthage.

2. Agree, Origen is a noble & deeply tragic figure.

3. Vatican II seemed to dispel superstition but also seemed to destroy positive aspects of folk traditions that contributed to bonds between faith in God and nature.

4. Disagree

5. Disagree. I often think Pelagius was distorted & probably just had a profound understanding of what St, Paul preached in Romans 2.

6. It almost seems blasphemous that the Tridentine Mass was not translated into vernaculars.

7. I think any formal reunification, as things stand, will be false & destroy Christian faith within both of our communions.

8. While I believe in a universe billions of years old, why should belief in a brief time span make salvation any more or less possible?

9. No comment.

10. Probably the tendency might superficially conform to what Rome has traditionally believed but it is probably more of a worldly power grab.

 

[Maximus the Forgetful]

This is as interesting as when Orthodox say there are more than seven. So in a scenario of coming together, would each side have to accept the councils of the other side totally, not at all, in spirit if not letter, or...?

I think the councils recognized by the Latin Church are perfectly valid synods, but they can't really be called ecumenical or be considered binding to the whole Church when the whole Church wasn't present. A council consisting of representatives from one church is, by definition, not ecumenical.

I hold the same view for any Orthodox councils beyond the first seven. I don't necessarily disagree with the councils themselves, I just don't think each sui iuris church should be forced to accept them.

Melkites maintain communion with Rome and only accept the first seven, so I don't see the issue from a Catholic perspective.

 

[Saxon]

Why the delay, do you think?

I believe that ROCOR fears official glorification would represent wholesale endorsement of some of his more controversial positions on things like toll houses, evolution, his somewhat argumentative attitude, and some of the residual controversies surrounding his life and Platina (especially what happened there after his repose). What's frustrating is that he did perhaps more than anyone ever to bring Orthodoxy to the faithful of North America, and is probably the reason why Orthodoxy isn't just seen as that funny-looking church with all those immigrants on the other side of town. For that reason, they're happy to always promote his writings, lectures, and image, but don't want to officially endorse them. That there are many saints whose teachings weren't perfect is lost on them, as is the absurdity that lesser people who reposed after Fr. Seraphim have since been glorified. For what it's worth, I have an icon of Fr. Seraphim - with a halo - and don't feel scandalized.

 

[melkite]

Rome is the Whore of Babylon.

Convert from Protestantism?

 

[melkite]

1. Orthodoxy really is a shaky federation of independent church bodies, not a cohesive Church.
2. The proper hierarchical order of the Church is a Petrine triarchy, and the pentarchy came into existence more from political motives than influence of apostolic tradition.
3. A few Eastern Catholic churches are the legitimate successors of the previous, unified Orthodox church more so than their modern Orthodox counterparts are.
4. Chalcedon is a stumbling block for the Orthodox understanding of how ecumenicity is established.
5. Traditional Latins have really departed from the heart of orthodox Christianity. In many ways, they display the veneer of it, but are just a hollowed-out shell.
6. Pope Francis is probably a heretic.
7. Eating meat isn't a sin, but Christians probably ought to be vegetarian.
8. Real Christians don't practice circumcision.

 

[hecma925]

Convert from Protestantism?

Yep, still shaking things off.

 

[noahzarc1]

Western Rite Orthodoxy is the elephant in the room for Eastern Orthodox

How come?

Western Rite Orthodox practice such things as the feast of Corpus Christi, Eucharistic Adoration and pray such things as the rosary. I am not saying all Eastern Orthodox are opposed to these practices, though some in the east have reviled the west for practices that are now practiced by Western Rite Orthodox. Orthodox theological understandings often seem to argue "the errors of the West" did not affect "liturgical" or "devotional practices" that grew out of the western tradition. Eucharistic Adoration is a uniquely Western devotion and Western Rite Orthodox look at this practice and advocate this practice for example can be Orthodox even though it is not Eastern. I have no problems with such reasoning, I suppose my only issue of why I call it "the elephant in the room" was that if it is not an error for the Orthodox to have it then the west was not in error as I examine the number of practice the Western Rite Orthodox now call their own.

 

[Jude1:3]

8) The earth is only a few thousand years old and macro-evolution is nonsense from the pits of hell.

Also, Heliocentrism is from hell and Geocentrism is the truth.

 

[melkite]

.

 

[melkite]

Also, Heliocentrism is from hell and Geocentrism is the truth.

Convert from Roman Catholicism?

 

[ROCORWRVUK]

I believe that ROCOR fears official glorification would represent wholesale endorsement of some of his more controversial positions on things like toll houses, evolution, his somewhat argumentative attitude, and some of the residual controversies surrounding his life and Platina (especially what happened there after his repose). What's frustrating is that he did perhaps more than anyone ever to bring Orthodoxy to the faithful of North America, and is probably the reason why Orthodoxy isn't just seen as that funny-looking church with all those immigrants on the other side of town. For that reason, they're happy to always promote his writings, lectures, and image, but don't want to officially endorse them. That there are many saints whose teachings weren't perfect is lost on them, as is the absurdity that lesser people who reposed after Fr. Seraphim have since been glorified. For what it's worth, I have an icon of Fr. Seraphim - with a halo - and don't feel scandalized.

My contacts tell me that the process of investigating his glorification is very advanced at this stage, so it appears that your analysis isn't quite right.

 

[HaydenTE]

Having a sort of “progression to sainthood” (i.e. Servant of God, Venerable, Blessed, and finally Saint) is completely meaningless and only confuses the faithful. Either we are confident they are in heaven, willing to intercede for us, and worthy of our veneration and emulation, or we aren’t.

Relatedly, having a “miracle requirement” for canonization totally misses the point of having saints for our edification and example, as well as God’s power to work through ordinary and natural means.

(I know this is more a gripe with Catholicism than Orthodoxy, but it still bothers me so I’ll post it.)

 

[Saxon]

My contacts tell me that the process of investigating his glorification is very advanced at this stage, so it appears that your analysis isn't quite right.

Tell your “contacts” they’ve had 38 years to look over arguably the most well-documented life within ROCOR. During my lifetime, please.

 

[Jude1:3]

Convert from Roman Catholicism?

Convert from Protestantism actually.

 

[sestir]

I take אֶחָד echad, in Shema Israel (Deut 6:4) to mean 'single' in the sense of God not having a wife. I might be biased of course. Maybe most of us like to think that popular persons we read about were like us.
Not translating אחד to 'one' would, unless I have missed something (which is likely), mean that unity isn't a divine characteristic.

 

[ROCORWRVUK]

Tell your “contacts” they’ve had 38 years to look over arguably the most well-documented life within ROCOR. During my lifetime, please.

It took about 30 years to glorify Saint Paisios the New. It took about 30 years to glorify Saint John of Shanghai and San Francisco. It took 50 years to glorify Saint Nektarios of Aegina. It took 60 years to glorify Saint John of Kronstadt. It took 500 years to glorify Saint Symeon of Thessaloniki.

Be patient; the Church works according to its own schedule, not yours.

 

[Saxon]

It took about 30 years to glorify Saint Paisios the New. It took about 30 years to glorify Saint John of Shanghai and San Francisco. It took 50 years to glorify Saint Nektarios of Aegina. It took 60 years to glorify Saint John of Kronstadt. It took 500 years to glorify Saint Symeon of Thessaloniki.

Be patient; the Church works according to its own schedule, not yours.

Less than 21 years for St. Paisios, who made xenophobic prophecies.

And please don’t talk about “contacts” or inside sources as if that’s verifiable or as if you’re someone with inside knowledge.

 

[youssef]

1. The union of churches is necessary if Christianity want to survive and to have a new world view.
2. Christian should be more comprehensive to gender question.
3. Liberation theology is a necessity today.
4. The catholics mew idea after the shism could be view as an accepted idea that a Christian could believe. All the discussion about the filioque are really waste of time(Xavier could write 1000 new posts about the filioque and every time you will have the same discussion).
5. The Russian orthodox church are delusional and the Ukrainian church has the right to be independent.

 

[ROCORWRVUK]

Less than 21 years for St. Paisios, who made xenophobic prophecies.

And please don’t talk about “contacts” or inside sources as if that’s verifiable or as if you’re someone with inside knowledge.

Well, the guy who used to run this account is now a monk in the EAD and actually spoke to the priest who is doing the research on the canonisation. He told me this. That's my "contact" as you put it.

Anyway, whatever. Take it as you will. I'll go in peace and leave you to do your thing.

 

[HaydenTE]

I experienced my very first low mass in the extraordinary form today, and I must confess that if that was all I ever saw, I'd want to be protestant too. It became painfully obvious that I was just watching a priest mutter to God in Latin. Mind you, I still believe it was efficacious in turning the bread and wine into the Body and Blood, but it very much felt like I could've popped in for the sermon and popped back in for communion and gotten the exact same spiritual benefit.

 

[LukeDM]

Okay, this thread is fun. I have a few here. I'm not willing to fall on the sword for any of these, but I find myself thinking them nonetheless.

1. Apocatastasis in a nuanced form, such as that expressed by St. Gregory of Nyssa or St. Isaac the Syrian, is not a heresy. It may not be dogmatically true, but nevertheless not heretical.

2. Orthodoxy is too quick to canonize political figures.

3. The tragic fall of traditionally Orthodox empires can be viewed as a blessing insofar as it forced the Church learn how to govern herself and to break the unhealthy attachment between the empire and the Church. I still believe that Christianity thrives the most as a persecuted group of believers, and the relationship between the emperor and the Church was toxic. Not unredeemable, but not ideal either.

4. The EP is in its death throes and may be willing to do damage to the Church to ensure its survival.

 

[PorphyriosK]

What the heck, I'm not winning any popularity contests around here anyway :

1) Mask mandates during worship, along with bans on kissing the icons, the chalice, and/or the priest's hand are an abomination and a sacrilege.
2) You cannot be an Orthodox Christian and vote for Leftist politicians that support abortion and infanticide (which is all of them).
PorphyriosK: I believe you've been asked a couple of times not to post political material on the public board. This time you're receiving a formal warning that will last for one month. As long as you abide by the rules over this period, your ability to post and interact with others etc. should not be affected. Please address any appeal to me. Thank you. Pravoslavbob, Section Moderator.
3) Papal apologists who continually and obstinately argue against Holy Orthodoxy, are heretics. Ordinary devout Catholics are cool and deserve sympathy.
4) Any apparent union in the near future established between Pope Francis and the EP will be based on politics and/or pure sentimentalism and will be a false union.
5) Rome is the rightful heir to the Western liturgical tradition. Eastern hierarchs should leave it alone and pray for its legitimate return.

 

[noahzarc1]

3. The tragic fall of traditionally Orthodox empires can be viewed as a blessing insofar as it forced the Church learn how to govern herself and to break the unhealthy attachment between the empire and the Church. I still believe that Christianity thrives the most as a persecuted group of believers, and the relationship between the emperor and the Church was toxic. Not unredeemable, but not ideal either.

1) Mask mandates during worship, along with bans on kissing the icons, the chalice, and/or the priest's hand are an abomination and a sacrilege.

I do not know what Vagantes and Old Calendarists in the East have done in response to COVID measures as opposed to the mainline Orthodox Churches? In the west, Traditionalists normally have a pretty bad name for their level of independence from the mainstream. However, this current COVID situation has brought some pretty troubling church government practices into sharp contrast with how the more independent organizations are handling this situation. I am not advocating for any of those group's positions on the church per se, but the mainstream of east and west have both taken some pretty sharp blows from their own congregations for following the herd on the COVID restrictions, particularly in how they were administered over against the normal worship life of their respective Churches.

The state of the church in the public's eyes is worse than it was 20 years ago and certainly has grown much worse in the last 10. I fear a true and all out assault on the churches is certainly much closer than at any time in my life. The capitulation of church leaders to government's mandates has certainly not helped during this time and is quite troubling.

 

[biro]

You want people in the congregation to die from a virus?

All the saints who are in Heaven have died. All of them.

I’d like to see the Lord when I die, but to paraphrase St. Augustine, not yet.

Ordinary people want to live, and I am pretty sure that is not a sin.

 

[PorphyriosK]

You want people in the congregation to die from a virus?

All the saints who are in Heaven have died. All of them.

I’d like to see the Lord when I die, but to paraphrase St. Augustine, not yet.

Ordinary people want to live, and I am pretty sure that is not a sin.

1) I suggest listening to the true Orthodox theology regarding the temple of God. God will not allow His people to become ill through kissing the holy icons, etc.

2) People who are sick should stay home and people who have weakened immune systems or are afraid should be allowed to either wear a mask or stay home if they choose. That is how most epidemics/pandemics have historically been handled. Forcing an entire population of healthy people to wear a mask is extreme government overreach and also relatively pointless from a medical perspective. As Fauchi pointed out before someone obviously forced him to alter his stance:

 

[Jude1:3]

1) I suggest listening to the true Orthodox theology regarding the temple of God. God will not allow His people to become ill through kissing the holy icons, etc.

Plus, healing and grace from God actually comes from The Holy Relics and Holy Icons of The Saints so it doesn't even make sense to say that they could make someone sick.

 

[hecma925]

You want people in the congregation to die from a virus?

All the saints who are in Heaven have died. All of them.

I’d like to see the Lord when I die, but to paraphrase St. Augustine, not yet.

Ordinary people want to live, and I am pretty sure that is not a sin.

Yes, I'm sure that's it! PorphyriosK just wants people to die!