To the Orthodox Apologists

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Oblio

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Whew, I've just been noticing the crackdown. Both Monkey and Linus have had some of their posts edited by moderators for violating TOS
: sniff :

I had an entire post deleted simply because I posted a link to the online Jordanville Prayerbook and asked God to be Lavis on his journey ... A clear violation of the TOS ::)

They have also started to close threads on a whim ...


 

Monkey

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In anticipation of our banishment, I have extended invitations to Bro_Gecko and Lavis to investigate this site. Both have expressed interest in Orthodoxy.

 

prodromos

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Did you get a response? They may be monitoring our PM's for TOS violations ;)

John

Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they are not out to get me.
 

Elisha

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Since (not that I know of) I haven't gotten one of thos threatening pm or edits yet, what has changed? Did they change the TOS's recently? I never read them to begin with. What are the diffs?
 

Monkey

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They have always had a TOS banning the promotion of religions/doctrines opposed to Evangelicalism. They have not always enforced it.

It seems things changed because of the "Where Were the Evangelicals?" thread. After an open challenge to offer any evidence of a pre-Reformation Evangelical, they started clamping down.

Part of it may be that some of the vocal anti-Catholics/Orthodox have not posted as much recently. There hasn't been much to balance us.

 

Oblio

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Part of it may be that some of the vocal anti-Catholics/Orthodox have not posted as much recently. There hasn't been much to balance us.
Not to fear ... berean showed up today on the Praying to Saints & Mary thread. He learned a new word, we are now an Occultic Church ::)
 

Elisha

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[quote author=Oblio Not to fear ... berean showed up today on the Praying to Saints & Mary thread. He learned a new word, we are now an Occultic Church ::)
That's funny. Sad, but funny.

It's only speculation, but I think that maybe they are more likely to clamp down when someone says "...that's why The Orthdox Church is the true Church (even though we of course know it is)..." as opposed to maybe concluding your argument with for example, "...studying this [insert topic] leads me to believe that the Easter Orthodox Church adheres closest to the ancient Faith." Or maybe just omitting your conclusion entirely. I'm only speculating this since I think that it would make me get defensive if I were a Protestant. You say things to get them to think, but not to put them off or sound you know it all and they're just inferior. Even though he's not Orthodox, Lavis does this well w/o offending anyone.
 

Aklie Semaet

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Christianity as articulated by the historic creeds, as understood by Evangelicalism
And what are those and how does ChristianBBS.com/Christianity.com ‘understand them?’ I’ll put a buck on it that they don’t have any consistent answer or position.

Historic Creeds of Protestantism:

1)   Veneration of Mary
2)   Real Presence in the Eucharist

Does ChristianBBS.com hold to these creeds? Then it does not hold to the articulated historic creeds of Evangelicalism.

See how Protestants react with confronted by Orthodox who knows their stuff. They buckle up and start running like a bunch of puppies with their tails between their legs. They could not respond with consistent, clear and convincing commentary so they resort to censorship.

They quickly run to Orthodox countries suffering from economic difficulty, poorly catechized and therefore vulnerable people and engage in the most horrendous proselytization against Orthodox followers. They bribe, promise broke people visas to western countries, set up corporate style PR campaigns (with some hard American currency) that no one can compete with. They are dead set on breaking the Orthodox Church and converting all of her followers.

But here, in America, it is different. Most of the Orthodox are converts and are thusly well catechized. Nobody cares about the conversion bribes and money because we already live here. So the playing field is leveled and Evangelicals cannot defend their system against Apostolic Tradition at face value. So they resort to other means.

That kind of contradictory arrogance is irritating to the nth degree. While it goes against my usual stance I am starting to see the value of the Russian and Eritrean positions. Just recently Eritrea banned ‘cults’ originating from missionaries. That would include most of the dominations dominant on ChristianBBS.com. They said that there is to only be Orthodoxy, Catholicism (both Roman and Eastern), mainline Protestants (Anglican, Lutheran and Presbyterian) and Islam allowed to spread in Eritrea. No more confusing new comers with their confusing instant burger salvation message, no more evangelical frenzy whipping. Maybe they are on to something. If we have to get banned from websites then maybe they should be banned from countries, they are of no use there anyway.

"...that's why The Orthdox Church is the true Church (even though we of course know it is)..." as opposed to maybe concluding your argument with for example, "...studying this [insert topic] leads me to believe that the Easter Orthodox Church adheres closest to the ancient Faith."
Heck no, don’t make that kind of compromise. Remember Orthodoxy being the ‘true’ Church or not is not something that we initially advanced. It was framed that way in a question by New in Christ and we kept responding. But it is fruitless to have a debate on if Orthodoxy is the ‘true’ Church or not or ‘which Church is the real Church.’ The Orthodox Church is just the Church that the Apostles established, call it what you want ‘real,’ ‘true’ or whatever but that is what it is, we call it Yetint Yetewatu, best translated as ancient and authentic, ‘original.’ There can be no ‘true’ Church in Christianity because there is no false Church. There is only the Church, deposit of the faith once and for all delivered to the saints. Denomination is a non-concept and a non-term in Apostolic Christianity. You are either in the Church or you are not. There is no ‘true’ Church.

Now is just the time to correspond, via private mail, with people that are interested in Orthodoxy. Occasionally correct outlandish and incorrect statements by Evangelicals as they may appear on the forum, but don’t bother engaging in long polemics. I have seen cliquish moves like this before and it is not going to stop, they days of Orthodoxy on that board are numbered so start wrapping things up.

In Christ,

A. Semaet
 

Elisha

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Aklie Semaet said:
"...that's why The Orthdox Church is the true Church (even though we of course know it is)..." as opposed to maybe concluding your argument with for example, "...studying this [insert topic] leads me to believe that the Easter Orthodox Church adheres closest to the ancient Faith."
Aklie,
I don't mean this as a compromise, but as a way to get the message to the non-Orthodox. When you say that "my church is the true church and your's sucks", the person you're telling it to just isn't going to list to a d*mn thing you tell them. For, example, I don't think Fr. Seraphim Rose compromises anything in his short booklet on "God's Revelation to the Human Heart.", but he doesn't flat out say "the Orthodox Church is the True Churhch and the multitudes of Protestant denominations are wrong." What someone means to say and how they actually come across to an audience are frequently two different things.


Aklie Semaet said:
Now is just the time to correspond, via private mail, with people that are interested in Orthodoxy. Occasionally correct outlandish and incorrect statements by Evangelicals as they may appear on the forum, but don’t bother engaging in long polemics. I have seen cliquish moves like this before and it is not going to stop, they days of Orthodoxy on that board are numbered so start wrapping things up.
I'm pretty much in agreeance. I'd go further and say that the days (if not hours) are very shortly numbered.
 

Linus7

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From Elisha:
Aklie,
I don't mean this as a compromise, but as a way to get the message to the non-Orthodox. When you say that "my church is the true church and your's sucks", the person you're telling it to just isn't going to list to a d*mn thing you tell them. For, example, I don't think Fr. Seraphim Rose compromises anything in his short booklet on "God's Revelation to the Human Heart.", but he doesn't flat out say "the Orthodox Church is the True Churhch and the multitudes of Protestant denominations are wrong." What someone means to say and how they actually come across to an audience are frequently two different things.
I believe you are wrong here.

For one thing, no one posted anything even remotely like "my church is the true church and yours sucks."

Nor were there any gratuitous or frequent, pushy assertions made about the Orthodox Church.

When I first began posting over at "Protestants R Us," anyone could view a member's profile and see to what denomination or church they belong. The issue came up and I gave the honest answer: the Holy Orthodox Church is the original, one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

As a result, some were offended. Others, however, suddenly knew where I stood and why I was posting the things I was posting. Consequently, a number of people expressed interest in Orthodoxy, and a few have even converted.

What is the alternative?

Most of our arguments assert the truth of the Apostolic Tradition as opposed to the very limited and relatively recent (16th century) traditions of Protestantism. In this, our arguments strongly resemble those of the Roman Catholics.

Were we to totally avoid mention of the Orthodox Church, the force of our arguments would lead seekers STRAIGHT TO ROME.

Is that what we want?

Most Protestants are familiar only with the Roman Catholic alternative. They know little or nothing about Orthodoxy.

Once we have knocked the very pillars of Protestantism - Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide - out from under them, they may begin looking for the historic faith.

What "historic faith" are they going to find if the only one they know about is the RCC?

To ask us to discuss the concept of authority in Christianity without being able to mention the Orthodox Church is like asking someone to go on living without a heart.

There is no Christianity without the Orthodox Church.

If the heretics (and that IS what they are, friends) over at "Protestants R Us" want to ban us, so be it. The devil has been trying to shut us up for about 2000 years.

He will fail, as he always has.

Meanwhile let us look upon this as an honor. We have been having an effect, so we are being persecuted.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
 

Elisha

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Linus (and Aklie),

You really misunderstand what I'm trying to say. Fr. Seraphim Rose's style is an example. When dealing with foaming-at-the-mouth Protestants, you can't just be completely blunt and forceful back. They'll become instantly defensive and completely blind to anything you have to say. Subtley and tact are needed to make them re-think their presuppositions. I'm completely aware that all the Protestants their think anything before the Reformation points to Rome and are extremely and ignorantly biased againts Rome. You need to spoon feed information to them. They need to see and research it themselves to believe it. I freely admit that my writing ability sucks and that's I let you guys do it ;D. It's a shame that CBBS is turning against us thought - a bunch of fools they are. God help us all.
 

Linus7

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Understood.

I tried some of that approach, but sometimes the situation simply forced the complete truth out of me.

I have noticed in my time at CBBS that many of the old contributors have moved on or been run off.

There used to be a contingent of atheists/agnostics, as well as some young and goofy pagans who visited that site. They were run off, too.

There was at one time an old guy from Texas who called himself "Baptist" (surprise!). He complained loudly that there was too much controversy at CBBS, but at the time the moderators didn't seem to notice.

Now they are evidently listening to such whining.

It is pretty obvious that Protestants cannot defend their doctrines in open debate. They generally resort to name-calling pretty early on.

Now they have resorted to censorship.

 

Ebor

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This is something that was on a newsgroup sometime back that I find good to remember:

SAINT SILOUAN
THE ATHONITE, by Archimandrite Sophrony, published in 1991 by the
Monastery of St. John the Baptist in Tolleshunt Knights, Maldon,
Essex, England, pp. 62-65.


"I remember a conversation [Father Silouan] had with a certain
Archimandrite who was engaged in missionary work. This Archimandrite
thought highly of the Staretz and many a time went to see him during
his visits to the Holy Mountain. The Staretz asked him what sort of
sermons he preached to people. The Archimandrite, who was still young
and inexperienced, gesticulated with his hands and swayed his whole
body, and replied excitedly,
"I tell them, 'Your faith is all wrong, perverted. There is
nothing right, and if you don't repent, there will be no salvation for
you.'"
The Staretz heard him out, then asked, "Tell me, Father
Archimandrite, do they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, that He is
the true God?"
"Yes, that they do believe."
"And do they revere the Mother of God?"
"Yes, but they are not taught properly about her."
"And what of the Saints?"
"Yes, they honour them, but since they have fallen away from
the Church, what saints can they have?"
"Do they celebrate the Divine Office in their churches? Do
they read the Gospels?"
"Yes, they do have churches and services but if you were to
compare their services with ours ? how cold and lifeless theirs are!"
"Father Archimandrite, people feel in their souls when they
are doing the proper thing, believing in Jesus Christ, revering the
Mother of God and the Saints, whom they call upon in prayer, so if you
condemn their faith they will not listen to you... But if you were to
confirm that they were doing well to believe in God and honour the
Mother of God and the Saints; that they are right to go to church, and
say their prayers at home, read the Divine word, and so on; and then
gently point out their mistakes and show them what they ought to
amend, then they would listen to you, and the Lord would rejoice over
them. And this way by God's mercy we shall all find salvation... God
is love, and therefore the preaching of His word must always proceed
from love. Then both preacher and listener will profit. But if you do
nothing but condemn, the soul of the people will not heed you, and no
good will come of it."

Ebor

 

Linus7

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Ebor -

Very good advice from St. Silouan, but the Archimandrite was very evidently not dealing with Protestants.

Since when have they begun to revere the Mother of God and the saints?

They refer to the Eucharist as the "Lord's Supper," call it an "ordinance" rather than a sacrament, and strip it of all but merely symbolic significance.

I and the other Orthodox posters over at Protestants R Us have never ranted at those with whom we disagree, nor have we condemned them.

We deal with their erroneous beliefs and oppose them from Scripture and Holy Tradition. For many of them this has been a painful experience, it is true, but a liberating one.

Since you supplied some good advice from St. Silouan, I will supply an example from the life of St. Polycarp, who was dealing with someone a little more extreme than those to whom Silouan's Archimandrite was preaching:

On his visit to Rome Polycarp met the heretic Marcion, who called on Polycarp to recognize him, to which Polycarp replied, "I recognize, I recognize, the first-born of Satan." (From Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, quoted in Penguin Books' Early Christian Writings, p. 115).

I think the difference between St. Silouan's advice and what Polycarp had to say to Marcion is that evidently Silouan's Archimandrite was dealing with some folks who were essentially Orthodox (maybe Roman Catholics?), and Polycarp was dealing with a genuine soul-endangering heretic.

Obviously it would not do any good to call Fundamentalist Protestants "sons of Satan."

But it might be good to recall that many of the Fathers of the Church were not as easy-going as we are today.


 

Ebor

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I don't think it's evident at all that the archimandrite wasn't dealing with "Protestants". They could have been Lutheran, or Anglican or some other variety. If you are going by the persons at the other forum, they are not the sum total of Protestantism. You would get different reactions from people in other churches/fora; they are not all alike. Revering St. Mary the Virgin may mean to them respecting her as Jesus' mother. Using "Lord's Supper" vs. Eucharist may just be a naming custom. I don't know. There are plenty of "Protestant's" who hold to more then symbolism in it.

No, it wouldn't help to call people "Sons of Satan". St. Polycarp could get away with it, but he was also addressing the leader not some ordinary member. Would he have been so harsh with them? I'm no Polycarp either, so I try to remember St. Silouns gentleness (not easygoing) and courtesy to other human souls.

Ebor
 

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Ebor -

I agree with you about the necessity for kindness.

But I disagree that Silouan's Archimandrite was dealing with Protestants, except for the extremely remote possibility that he was dealing with high-church Anglicans.

In general, except for high-church Anglicans, there are NO Protestants who revere the Mother of God or the saints.

Except for some Anglicans and the Lutherans, the vast majority of Protestants absolutely deny the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Reformed/Presbyterians believe Christ is "spiritually present" in the Eucharist and that one receives grace thereby, but they deny the essential transformation that is the heart of the Christian eucharistic doctrine.

Those sects that descend from the Radical Reformation make denial of the Real Presence a point of faith and condemn those who believe in it as "idolaters."

Protestantism is a dangerous and deceptive heresy that elevates the individual and his private opinions above the authority of Christ's Church.

It has split western Christendom asunder into a multitude of conflicting sects whose members would have trouble agreeing on the color of grass.

Some of those sects even deny the very deity of Christ, and the modernists deny almost everything essentially Christian.

Perhaps very conservative Anglicans, being nearly Roman Catholic, are the exceptions to all this, and such exceptions should be recognized. But an Anglican of that type is not going to be mounting the same sorts of arguments and doing the sorts of things that other, more extreme, Protestants do.

 

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Hullo friends,

OK, so I'm nibbling. Don't be suprised if the hook comes back clean. ;)

Seriously, I appreciate much of your work at the "other" place. I like what Staretz had to say. Amazing how that works. Just like St. Paul; first praise for what is done right and then correct that which is not. You have to first "know" the one you're talking to in order to do that. Something I really need to work on.

I remember, many years ago, the process of joining the Air Force. Going to "boot camp" is a process of tearing down one's individualism and building up a unity with those who are in it with you. It would seem that there is more tearing going on in my life. Can't ever get away from it.

Still, God is gracious and merciful. Linus, thanks for praying.

Humbly,
Steve
 

Linus7

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Hey, Steve!

Man, I'm glad you're here!

I guess you have seen what is going over at CBBS?

Any comments on it?

I hope the hook does not come back clean! We need you up on board the ark of the Orthodox Church.

Please don't just nibble. Get involved in the discussions here and stick around.

I appreciate your prayers, too.
 

gecko

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Linus7 said:
I guess you have seen what is going over at CBBS?

Any comments on it?
--------------------
Hmmm. Any comments? Mostly opinion and y'all know what they're worth.;) Non-the-less:

My views do not necessarily reflect anyone elses views, etc., etc....

  • :( Observation 1: Only the rare member of those I've talked with are seeking. They're embedded in their own world/god/religious view (I used a lower case for a reason) and simply want to "test" their suppositions on others. They cannot fathom that God is wanting them to come into all truth because they aren't willing to accept that they simply don't know it all. Or they believe that the "truth" that they do know is sufficient (sola etc.)If we, in our walking in the Way, don't continue to seek we will soon end up on the broad road.
  • :( Observation 2: Those who don't wish to seek surely don't want to hear a different view that tears at their beliefs. That will force them to take another look at the religion they've been in and, ultimately, the only conclusion they'll come up with will be that they've been duped. And nobody likes being duped.
  • :( Observation 3: Safety in numbers and anonimity. It's amazing how the CBBS fosters a lack of fellowship and family. Conversely, it supports the opposite unless, of course, you strictly adhere to their mind set.

I hope the hook does not come back clean! We need you up on board the ark of the Orthodox Church.
-------------------
Ya know, if you use a fly you never have to re-bait the hook. 8)

I can't say that you "need me on the ark" but that "I need the Father and His grace through Christ Jesus". Obviously, where that leads is where it leads. In a song by Rich Mullins called "Creed", he said:

"And I believe what I believe is what makes me what I am
I did not make it, no it is making me
It is the very truth of God and not the invention of any man"


How arrogant to say that I can be the maker of my beliefs or any such thing. "Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word of God..." I'm listening, Lord.

Please don't just nibble. Get involved in the discussions here and stick around.

I appreciate your prayers, too.
----------------
You know me better than that I hope. ;)

Message only modified to fix problem with quotes.--anastasios
 

Linus7

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Steve -

I think your observations are very astute.

In a way I am glad about what has happened over at "Protestants R Us."

I was getting tired of beating my head against the brick wall over there, and the prolonged contact with heresy was wearing me down and making me feel kind of spiritually sick.

The Divine Liturgy each Sunday was my anti-venom.

Now I understand the master heresiarch (Berean53) is back at CBBS and in fine form, referring to all apostolic Christians as "cultists" and "idolaters," etc.

With the new constraints that have been imposed over there, it is now next to impossible to deal with people like him. Our deleted posts would only make him look good and make others think we had resorted to swearing and were being censored for that reason.
 

Linus7

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A news flash from the front:

A moderator over at "Protestants R Us" has officially declared that it is okay to criticize the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches, but that RCs and Orthodox are only allowed to "clarify their perspective" in response and must not criticize Evangelical Protestant beliefs.

This statement came in response to a post by a Roman Catholic complaining of the extremely offensive comments of a Fundamentalist.

This is just more evidence that Evangelical Protestants are not competent to defend their beliefs in open debate and must resort to censorship.


 

Linus7

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Well, I understand why the folks over at CBBS have begun censoring our posts.

They cannot defeat us in open debate.

They regard us as apostate "sheep stealers."

Their loss.

Now my goal is to imitate my heroes here and rack up enough posts to become a "Patriarch." ;D
 
H

Hypo-Ortho

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Linus 7<<Now my goal is to imitate my heroes here and rack up enough posts to become a "Patriarch.">>

Go for it, just so long as you don't try to take away my patriarchal territory, Linus! ;)

Hypo-Ortho
 

gecko

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Linus7 said:
Steve -

I think your observations are very astute.

In a way I am glad about what has happened over at "Protestants R Us."

I was getting tired of beating my head against the brick wall over there, and the prolonged contact with heresy was wearing me down and making me feel kind of spiritually sick.

The Divine Liturgy each Sunday was my anti-venom.

Now I understand the master heresiarch (Berean53) is back at CBBS and in fine form, referring to all apostolic Christians as "cultists" and "idolaters," etc.

With the new constraints that have been imposed over there, it is now next to impossible to deal with people like him. Our deleted posts would only make him look good and make others think we had resorted to swearing and were being censored for that reason.
Ya know, TOS #17 is getting REALLY annoying. I can't follow the one sided conversations like this. What did you say to warrant the censoring?

This reminds me of my wife's experience with the new age occultisms. Seems that ANY religion but Christianity is a valid path to follow. And you can just mix and match as you go. Hey, if it works for you it works for me too. Hoo boy!

Steve
 

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This reminds me of my wife's experience with the new age occultisms. Seems that ANY religion but Christianity is a valid path to follow.
If that's the ONLY path they reject, ISTM that's evidence it's true. It's the only one they're afraid of.
 

Linus7

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From gecko: Ya know, TOS #17 is getting REALLY annoying. I can't follow the one sided conversations like this. What did you say to warrant the censoring?
I think you are referring to my post over on the thread Baptist vs. Catholic, in which I advised a young Catholic man who was dating a Baptist girl that she should convert or he should seek a new girlfriend.

That was evidently not my chief "sin," however.

The moderator in question sent me a PM advising me that I am not allowed to recommend Catholic books at CBBS.

I had recommended Karl Keating's Fundamentalism and Catholicism: the Attack on "Romanism" by "Bible Christians," and David Currie's Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic.

The OP had requested we suggest books he could read on the subject.

At CBBS that evidently means only certain kinds of books.
 

Oblio

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: sigh :

I couldn't remember exactly what you had posted Linus, now I remember ...

What despicable actions by the staff & managment at CBBS.

I am waiting for my link (to fatheralexander.org) in the Lent, Fish & Mardi Gras thread to get deleted. Never mind that the OP asked what Lent was, and I made it clear that my reply was in response to the OP. I was even going to post a link to Fr. Schmemann's book on Great and Holy Lent, good thing I didn't.
 

Linus7

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Oblio -

Yeah, I saw your Mardi Gras, etc. post. It was a great post, very informative and superbly written. I smiled when I saw it and waved a mental "bye-bye" to it (sorry!). ;)

If we had recommended Reverend Ima Goober's Manual for West Virginia Pentecostal Snake Handlers, our posts would no doubt have solicited a hearty round of "amens!"
 

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I'm wondering, do you all think I've been sufficiently non-evangelical to be censored, or am I still a "viable" agent on that board?
 

Linus7

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Good question, steve.

You have exposed yourself pretty well, at least to those who saw your posts at Tradition, Bible, & Church Authority.

However, I think the witch hunt is based on complaints received and by the personal animus of wintercrow. He absolutely hates me and Monkey and is none too fond of Oblio and dadof10.

He may not have "made" you yet, so you may have time.

Once he figures you out, however, you're a gone goose.

 

Linus7

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May the Lord shield you, Steve!

May you escape the "Butcher of Gag-dad" (and he's gagged Linus7, Oblio, and several others, too!)! ;D
 

gecko

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How's this. Just posted to "baptism that now saves":

-----------------
In Reply To:
If you want another exercise in futility, try making this one fit:

"And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety." (1Tim 2:14-15)


What would you say dad of 10?
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Gee, may I?

Consider that Paul, in Romans, speaks very eloquently that through Adam sin came and through Christ righteousness came, and salvation. Sin .vs salvation. I see this very same thought in the above:

That the woman was deceived, thus playing her part in bringing sin into the world. Yet, by Mary's obedience in childbearing, salvation came to all the world through Jesus Christ. The qualifier that Paul uses for the salvation of women is "Continue[ing] in faith, love and holiness with propriety" which really applies to all fo us doesn't it?

OK. I'm ready to be shot. Wink

Humbly,
Steve
 

Linus7

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You used the forbidden name - Mary! 8)

You may indeed be shot!

 

Linus7

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Steve -

Be careful. He may have been one of the ones who complained about us. NiC was pretty upset about his failure at Tradition, Bible, & Church Authority.

If you see Monkey over there, tell him to get over here and post a bit! ;D

I need to get to bed. :(
 
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