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UAOC and KP are not uniting however

mike

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Metropolitan Makariy (Maletych): unification council may fail to occur
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/orthodox_relations/60274/

<popcorn>
 

cossack 316

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This may shed some light as to why. The article is in Ukrainian but google translate helps ...http://pravyysektor.info/news/moskva-namahajetsya-zirvaty-protses-objednannya-ukrajinskyh-tserkov/
 

Iconodule

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cossack 316 said:
This may shed some light as to why. The article is in Ukrainian but google translate helps ...http://pravyysektor.info/news/moskva-namahajetsya-zirvaty-protses-objednannya-ukrajinskyh-tserkov/
"From the available sources..." Which would be? Somehow I'm not inclined to give much credence to a fascist website.
 

mike

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cossack 316 said:
This may shed some light as to why. The article is in Ukrainian but google translate helps ...http://pravyysektor.info/news/moskva-namahajetsya-zirvaty-protses-objednannya-ukrajinskyh-tserkov/
some here can read Ukrainian without google.

404 however.
 
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I also got a 404.

no political comments in Christian News.  You have been warned. 

Yurysprudentsiya
 

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Yurysprudentsiya said:
I also got a 404.
Trying to summarize, and I do need at least some help from machines, the Pravy Sektor' article seems to say that Moscow should be blamed for any failure in the unification of the UOAC & the UOC-KP. 


My posting of this should in no way be seen as an endorsement of Pravy Sektor or - only for the benefit of those who are not connecting. 


МОСКВА НАМАГАЄТЬСЯ ЗІРВАТИ ПРОЦЕС ОБ’ЄДНАННЯ УКРАЇНСЬКИХ ЦЕРКОВ

Із оперативних джерел нам стало відомо про зустріч, яка відбулася між митрополитом Української Автокефальної Православної Церкви Макарієм (Малетичем) та проросійським олігархом Вадимом Новинським. Зустрівшись із Главою УАПЦ, московський резидент запропонував йому значну суму в обмін на припинення переговорного процесу між УАПЦ та УПЦ КП.

Зрозуміло, що, бачачи щирість прагнень митрополита об’єднати українське православ’я, нам важко уявити, що він прийме пропозицію агента російського впливу. Але факт залишається фактом: Москву серйозно турбує процес об’єднання українських Церков і вона готова докласти максимум зусиль, аби цей процес зірвати.

Військово-політичний рух «Правий сектор» бажає Святішому патріарху Філарету і Блаженнішому митрополиту Макарію, а також усім учасникам переговорного процесу Божого благословення у розпочатій справі. Віримо, що на тлі нинішнього протистояння з Москвою, а також усіх викликів, перед якими опинилася українська нація, об’єднання УПЦ КП та УАПЦ в єдину помісну Церкву матиме позитивні наслідки як у площині дочасних благ нашого народу, так і в площині спасіння Божого люду України.

Водночас хочемо наголосити, що дії В. Новинського – це черговий приклад антидержавної діяльності олігархів. У нормальній, національній, державі такі дії неминуче потягнули б за собою кримінальне переслідування. Проте ми не плекаємо ілюзій щодо того, що нинішній режим дасть цим діям адекватну оцінку. Навести порядок в Україні зможе лише переможне завершення Національної революції.

Провід Військово-політичного руху «Правий сектор»

Moscow is trying to disrupt the process of unification UKRAINIAN CHURCHES

From the available sources we learned about the meeting that took place between Metropolitan of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church Macarius (MALETYCH) and pro-Russian oligarch Vadim Novinsky. After meeting with the Head of Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, the Moscow resident offered him a substantial sum in exchange for the termination of negotiations between the UAOC and the UOC-KP.

Clearly, seeing the sincerity of intentions Metropolitan unite Ukrainian Orthodoxy, it is hard to imagine that it will offer the agent of Russian influence. But the fact remains that Moscow is seriously concerned about the process of unification of Ukrainian Churches and is ready to make every effort to derail the process.

The military-political movement "Right Sector" wishes of His Holiness Patriarch Filaret and Beatitude Metropolitan Macarius, and all participants of negotiations God's blessing on the work begun. We believe that despite the current confrontation with Moscow, as well as all the challenges before which was Ukrainian nation union UOC-KP and UAOC in one national church will have a positive impact in the plane of temporal goods of our people and in the plane of the salvation of God's people Ukraine.

At the same time we want to emphasize that the actions of Vladimir Novinsky - is another example of anti oligarchs. In normal, national, state the following would inevitably drew to a criminal prosecution. However, we do not cherish illusions about the fact that the current regime will give an adequate assessment of these actions. Bring order to Ukraine will only victorious completion of the National Revolution.

Wires military-political movement "Right Sector"
 

IreneOlinyk

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This is just too far-fetched for me to believe.  The oligarch Vadim Novinsky was a supporter of the previous president Viktor Yanukovych, but this is too much even for him.
You can read his bio here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vadim_Novinsky
 

ICXCNIKA

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And if they did unite? What then? Instead of 2 Schismatic Churches you would have one. All the same people would still be in Schism from the Orthodox Church. The likelihood that they will be able to join the EP is slim to none.
 

IreneOlinyk

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ICXCNIKA said:
And if they did unite? What then? Instead of 2 Schismatic Churches you would have one. All the same people would still be in Schism from the Orthodox Church. The likelihood that they will be able to join the EP is slim to none.
Let me guess; you also predicted that the ROCOR & the MP would never unite too.
 

TheTrisagion

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At some point, I think UAOC and KP will return from schism. I don't know if it will be through this venture, but I think it will happen fairly soon. Ukrainian parishes are fleeing the MP over the ongoing war and I can't see a way that Ukraine will be broken off from the Church indefinitely particularly when it isn't a point of doctrine, but rather a political disagreement that is causing the schism.
 

ICXCNIKA

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IreneOlinyk said:
ICXCNIKA said:
And if they did unite? What then? Instead of 2 Schismatic Churches you would have one. All the same people would still be in Schism from the Orthodox Church. The likelihood that they will be able to join the EP is slim to none.
Let me guess; you also predicted that the ROCOR & the MP would never unite too.
Quite the opposite. Was there a point to this comment?
 

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TheTrisagion said:
At some point, I think UAOC and KP will return from schism. I don't know if it will be through this venture, but I think it will happen fairly soon. Ukrainian parishes are fleeing the MP over the ongoing war and I can't see a way that Ukraine will be broken off from the Church indefinitely particularly when it isn't a point of doctrine, but rather a political disagreement that is causing the schism.
I hope they do return from schism. I understand their frustration. I just don't think that they will be able to return from schism via the EP. We need a concrete and objective criteria for the realization of autocephaly.
 

TheTrisagion

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ICXCNIKA said:
TheTrisagion said:
At some point, I think UAOC and KP will return from schism. I don't know if it will be through this venture, but I think it will happen fairly soon. Ukrainian parishes are fleeing the MP over the ongoing war and I can't see a way that Ukraine will be broken off from the Church indefinitely particularly when it isn't a point of doctrine, but rather a political disagreement that is causing the schism.
I hope they do return from schism. I understand their frustration. I just don't think that they will be able to return from schism via the EP. We need a concrete and objective criteria for the realization of autocephaly.
I don't know how else it would happen. The MP isn't going to let them willingly go, and I doubt that he would break communion with the EP, although it would create some serious friction between the two.

I do agree with you on the need for criteria and a plan towards autocephaly. There are many areas of the world that similarly flounder with the ambiguity.
 

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TheTrisagion said:
ICXCNIKA said:
TheTrisagion said:
At some point, I think UAOC and KP will return from schism. I don't know if it will be through this venture, but I think it will happen fairly soon. Ukrainian parishes are fleeing the MP over the ongoing war and I can't see a way that Ukraine will be broken off from the Church indefinitely particularly when it isn't a point of doctrine, but rather a political disagreement that is causing the schism.
I hope they do return from schism. I understand their frustration. I just don't think that they will be able to return from schism via the EP. We need a concrete and objective criteria for the realization of autocephaly.
I don't know how else it would happen. The MP isn't going to let them willingly go, and I doubt that he would break communion with the EP, although it would create some serious friction between the two.

I do agree with you on the need for criteria and a plan towards autocephaly. There are many areas of the world that similarly flounder with the ambiguity.
I don't see how the MP would have any choice but to excommunicate the EP for interfering in what they consider their canonical territory if the EP were to establish an autonomous church or diocese for itself. I don't think the EP is interested in creating an autocephalous church in Ukraine.

I think negotiation is the only way that normalcy can return to the situation and that should be done by appealing for temporary oversight to either the Polish Orthodox Church  or The Czech and Slovak Orthodox Church. This way the it won't be dragged into the EP vs MP turf war.
 

Cyrillic

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ICXCNIKA said:
TheTrisagion said:
ICXCNIKA said:
TheTrisagion said:
At some point, I think UAOC and KP will return from schism. I don't know if it will be through this venture, but I think it will happen fairly soon. Ukrainian parishes are fleeing the MP over the ongoing war and I can't see a way that Ukraine will be broken off from the Church indefinitely particularly when it isn't a point of doctrine, but rather a political disagreement that is causing the schism.
I hope they do return from schism. I understand their frustration. I just don't think that they will be able to return from schism via the EP. We need a concrete and objective criteria for the realization of autocephaly.
I don't know how else it would happen. The MP isn't going to let them willingly go, and I doubt that he would break communion with the EP, although it would create some serious friction between the two.

I do agree with you on the need for criteria and a plan towards autocephaly. There are many areas of the world that similarly flounder with the ambiguity.
I don't see how the MP would have any choice but to excommunicate the EP for interfering in what they consider their canonical territory if the EP were to establish an autonomous church or diocese for itself. I don't think the EP is interested in creating an autocephalous church in Ukraine.

I think negotiation is the only way that normalcy can return to the situation and that should be done by appealing for temporary oversight to either the Polish Orthodox Church  or The Czech and Slovak Orthodox Church. This way the it won't be dragged into the EP vs MP turf war.
Theoretically Ukraine is still under the EP. The Czars snatching it away from the EP in the 17th century doesn't have too much ecclesiastical validity. IIRC, the EP never approved of Kiev leaving its synod to join that of the Muscovites.
 

ICXCNIKA

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Cyrillic said:
ICXCNIKA said:
TheTrisagion said:
ICXCNIKA said:
TheTrisagion said:
At some point, I think UAOC and KP will return from schism. I don't know if it will be through this venture, but I think it will happen fairly soon. Ukrainian parishes are fleeing the MP over the ongoing war and I can't see a way that Ukraine will be broken off from the Church indefinitely particularly when it isn't a point of doctrine, but rather a political disagreement that is causing the schism.
I hope they do return from schism. I understand their frustration. I just don't think that they will be able to return from schism via the EP. We need a concrete and objective criteria for the realization of autocephaly.
I don't know how else it would happen. The MP isn't going to let them willingly go, and I doubt that he would break communion with the EP, although it would create some serious friction between the two.

I do agree with you on the need for criteria and a plan towards autocephaly. There are many areas of the world that similarly flounder with the ambiguity.
I don't see how the MP would have any choice but to excommunicate the EP for interfering in what they consider their canonical territory if the EP were to establish an autonomous church or diocese for itself. I don't think the EP is interested in creating an autocephalous church in Ukraine.

I think negotiation is the only way that normalcy can return to the situation and that should be done by appealing for temporary oversight to either the Polish Orthodox Church  or The Czech and Slovak Orthodox Church. This way the it won't be dragged into the EP vs MP turf war.
Theoretically Ukraine is still under the EP. The Czars snatching it away from the EP in the 17th century doesn't have too much ecclesiastical validity. IIRC, the EP never approved of Kiev leaving its synod to join that of the Muscovites.
Theoretically Constantinople is neither autocephalous nor a patriarchate since it is not the capital of the empire.
 

Orest

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TheTrisagion said:
ICXCNIKA said:
TheTrisagion said:
At some point, I think UAOC and KP will return from schism. I don't know if it will be through this venture, but I think it will happen fairly soon. Ukrainian parishes are fleeing the MP over the ongoing war and I can't see a way that Ukraine will be broken off from the Church indefinitely particularly when it isn't a point of doctrine, but rather a political disagreement that is causing the schism.
I hope they do return from schism. I understand their frustration. I just don't think that they will be able to return from schism via the EP. We need a concrete and objective criteria for the realization of autocephaly.
I don't know how else it would happen. The MP isn't going to let them willingly go, and I doubt that he would break communion with the EP, although it would create some serious friction between the two.
But it has happened in the past: the Orthodox Church of Finland, the Orthodox Church of Estonia, the Orthodox Church of Poland etc. all turned to the EP.
 

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I think the numbers are what set Ukraine apart.
 

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Jeffrey said:
Yurysprudentsiya said:
I also got a 404.
Trying to summarize, and I do need at least some help from machines, the Pravy Sektor' article seems to say that Moscow should be blamed for any failure in the unification of the UOAC & the UOC-KP. 


My posting of this should in no way be seen as an endorsement of Pravy Sektor or - only for the benefit of those who are not connecting. 


МОСКВА НАМАГАЄТЬСЯ ЗІРВАТИ ПРОЦЕС ОБ’ЄДНАННЯ УКРАЇНСЬКИХ ЦЕРКОВ

Із оперативних джерел нам стало відомо про зустріч, яка відбулася між митрополитом Української Автокефальної Православної Церкви Макарієм (Малетичем) та проросійським олігархом Вадимом Новинським. Зустрівшись із Главою УАПЦ, московський резидент запропонував йому значну суму в обмін на припинення переговорного процесу між УАПЦ та УПЦ КП.

Зрозуміло, що, бачачи щирість прагнень митрополита об’єднати українське православ’я, нам важко уявити, що він прийме пропозицію агента російського впливу. Але факт залишається фактом: Москву серйозно турбує процес об’єднання українських Церков і вона готова докласти максимум зусиль, аби цей процес зірвати.

Військово-політичний рух «Правий сектор» бажає Святішому патріарху Філарету і Блаженнішому митрополиту Макарію, а також усім учасникам переговорного процесу Божого благословення у розпочатій справі. Віримо, що на тлі нинішнього протистояння з Москвою, а також усіх викликів, перед якими опинилася українська нація, об’єднання УПЦ КП та УАПЦ в єдину помісну Церкву матиме позитивні наслідки як у площині дочасних благ нашого народу, так і в площині спасіння Божого люду України.

Водночас хочемо наголосити, що дії В. Новинського – це черговий приклад антидержавної діяльності олігархів. У нормальній, національній, державі такі дії неминуче потягнули б за собою кримінальне переслідування. Проте ми не плекаємо ілюзій щодо того, що нинішній режим дасть цим діям адекватну оцінку. Навести порядок в Україні зможе лише переможне завершення Національної революції.

Провід Військово-політичного руху «Правий сектор»

Moscow is trying to disrupt the process of unification UKRAINIAN CHURCHES

From the available sources we learned about the meeting that took place between Metropolitan of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church Macarius (MALETYCH) and pro-Russian oligarch Vadim Novinsky. After meeting with the Head of Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, the Moscow resident offered him a substantial sum in exchange for the termination of negotiations between the UAOC and the UOC-KP.

Clearly, seeing the sincerity of intentions Metropolitan unite Ukrainian Orthodoxy, it is hard to imagine that it will offer the agent of Russian influence. But the fact remains that Moscow is seriously concerned about the process of unification of Ukrainian Churches and is ready to make every effort to derail the process.

The military-political movement "Right Sector" wishes of His Holiness Patriarch Filaret and Beatitude Metropolitan Macarius, and all participants of negotiations God's blessing on the work begun. We believe that despite the current confrontation with Moscow, as well as all the challenges before which was Ukrainian nation union UOC-KP and UAOC in one national church will have a positive impact in the plane of temporal goods of our people and in the plane of the salvation of God's people Ukraine.

At the same time we want to emphasize that the actions of Vladimir Novinsky - is another example of anti oligarchs. In normal, national, state the following would inevitably drew to a criminal prosecution. However, we do not cherish illusions about the fact that the current regime will give an adequate assessment of these actions. Bring order to Ukraine will only victorious completion of the National Revolution.

Wires military-political movement "Right Sector"
Well, UAOC always was considered by true True Ukrainians (especially those associaced with the KP) as cryptoagents of Russia. Wasn't that the reason Isichenko started his own one?
 

ialmisry

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Cyrillic said:
ICXCNIKA said:
TheTrisagion said:
ICXCNIKA said:
TheTrisagion said:
At some point, I think UAOC and KP will return from schism. I don't know if it will be through this venture, but I think it will happen fairly soon. Ukrainian parishes are fleeing the MP over the ongoing war and I can't see a way that Ukraine will be broken off from the Church indefinitely particularly when it isn't a point of doctrine, but rather a political disagreement that is causing the schism.
I hope they do return from schism. I understand their frustration. I just don't think that they will be able to return from schism via the EP. We need a concrete and objective criteria for the realization of autocephaly.
I don't know how else it would happen. The MP isn't going to let them willingly go, and I doubt that he would break communion with the EP, although it would create some serious friction between the two.

I do agree with you on the need for criteria and a plan towards autocephaly. There are many areas of the world that similarly flounder with the ambiguity.
I don't see how the MP would have any choice but to excommunicate the EP for interfering in what they consider their canonical territory if the EP were to establish an autonomous church or diocese for itself. I don't think the EP is interested in creating an autocephalous church in Ukraine.

I think negotiation is the only way that normalcy can return to the situation and that should be done by appealing for temporary oversight to either the Polish Orthodox Church  or The Czech and Slovak Orthodox Church. This way the it won't be dragged into the EP vs MP turf war.
Theoretically Ukraine is still under the EP. The Czars snatching it away from the EP the Poles and their Unia in the 17th century doesn't have too much ecclesiastical validity. IIRC, the EP never approved of Kiev leaving its synod to join that of the Muscovites.
fixed that.
 

Cyrillic

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ialmisry said:
Cyrillic said:
ICXCNIKA said:
TheTrisagion said:
ICXCNIKA said:
TheTrisagion said:
At some point, I think UAOC and KP will return from schism. I don't know if it will be through this venture, but I think it will happen fairly soon. Ukrainian parishes are fleeing the MP over the ongoing war and I can't see a way that Ukraine will be broken off from the Church indefinitely particularly when it isn't a point of doctrine, but rather a political disagreement that is causing the schism.
I hope they do return from schism. I understand their frustration. I just don't think that they will be able to return from schism via the EP. We need a concrete and objective criteria for the realization of autocephaly.
I don't know how else it would happen. The MP isn't going to let them willingly go, and I doubt that he would break communion with the EP, although it would create some serious friction between the two.

I do agree with you on the need for criteria and a plan towards autocephaly. There are many areas of the world that similarly flounder with the ambiguity.
I don't see how the MP would have any choice but to excommunicate the EP for interfering in what they consider their canonical territory if the EP were to establish an autonomous church or diocese for itself. I don't think the EP is interested in creating an autocephalous church in Ukraine.

I think negotiation is the only way that normalcy can return to the situation and that should be done by appealing for temporary oversight to either the Polish Orthodox Church  or The Czech and Slovak Orthodox Church. This way the it won't be dragged into the EP vs MP turf war.
Theoretically Ukraine is still under the EP. The Czars snatching it away from the EP the Poles and their Unia in the 17th century doesn't have too much ecclesiastical validity. IIRC, the EP never approved of Kiev leaving its synod to join that of the Muscovites.
fixed that.
Valid point, but it isn't worth much legally.
 

ialmisry

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Orest said:
TheTrisagion said:
ICXCNIKA said:
TheTrisagion said:
At some point, I think UAOC and KP will return from schism. I don't know if it will be through this venture, but I think it will happen fairly soon. Ukrainian parishes are fleeing the MP over the ongoing war and I can't see a way that Ukraine will be broken off from the Church indefinitely particularly when it isn't a point of doctrine, but rather a political disagreement that is causing the schism.
I hope they do return from schism. I understand their frustration. I just don't think that they will be able to return from schism via the EP. We need a concrete and objective criteria for the realization of autocephaly.
I don't know how else it would happen. The MP isn't going to let them willingly go, and I doubt that he would break communion with the EP, although it would create some serious friction between the two.
But it has happened in the past: the Orthodox Church of Finland, the Orthodox Church of Estonia, the Orthodox Church of Poland etc. all turned to the EP.
Because the Bolsheviks had their boot on the Patriarchate of Moscow.
The Metropolia of Kiev turned to the Czar only a few decades after being transferred to Constantinople in 1589. That is how Ukraine ended up reattached to Moscow in the first place.
There is nothing at present recommending turning to the Phanar: it has no strong backing, and Moscow isn't prostrate.
 
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