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Ukraine-Russia tensions reach Greece’s holy Mount Athos

Agabus

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From here: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/14/ukraine-russia-tensions-reach-greeces-holy-mount-athos

Kirill has banned Russians from taking holy communion in the churches of Athos, calling any priests who bless the ecumenical patriarch schismatics, leading to a dilemma for those Russians who want to visit.
 

Luke

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Interesting.  I am not familiar with the Guardian, but posters have wondered if this issue has hit Mt. Athos yet.
 

Samn!

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Luke said:
I am not familiar with the Guardian
It's the UK's main center-left newspaper.
 

IreneOlinyk

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I think it would be better for a monk like  Father Alexander mentioned  to spend his time and "words" praying for peace rather than providing plans that led to death for some of those pilots of the planes shot down:

  When conflict broke out in his home region in 2014, he returned home to provide support to the separatists fighting Ukrainian government forces.

“The abbot gave me blessing to go to the war but said if you carry a weapon you will die. I asked what would I do in a war without a gun, and he said: ‘Fight with your words’. And thanks to my words, we destroyed half the Ukrainian aviation. I drew maps of how they would fly on a napkin and we shot them all down,” he said.
 

Iconodule

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Kirill has banned Russians from taking holy communion in the churches of Athos, calling any priests who bless the ecumenical patriarch schismatics

Has he really done that? That seems quite over-the-top. Doesn't every bishop (outside the MP of course)  normally commemorate the EP along with other patriarchs during hierarchical divine liturgy? That would seem to make every church apart from the MP schismatic.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Iconodule said:
Doesn't every bishop (outside the MP of course)  normally commemorate the EP along with other patriarchs during hierarchical divine liturgy?
No.
 

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I've been to Liturgy at ROCOR, OCA, Serbian, Greek (Canada), and UOCC parishes, and the only time I've heard the Ecumenical Patriarch commemorated was at the latter two, both of which are appropriately under Constantinople. Whenever he was mentioned in conversations that I was privy to with Russian clergy, he was referred to derogatorily, and that was some time before the announcement on Ukraine.

There seems to be an increase of commentary to the effect of "Constantinople is wrong, but Moscow is overreacting...". I think the latter's response is wholly measured. What's all the more astonishing is that not one other Orthodox jurisdiction has come out in support of the EP's position, none, with everyone either vocally supporting the MP or staying silent for their own reasons. And on the contrary, some EP parishes have, or have announced an intention to, secede. Embarrassing and absurd.
 

Iconodule

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Mor Ephrem said:
Iconodule said:
Doesn't every bishop (outside the MP of course)  normally commemorate the EP along with other patriarchs during hierarchical divine liturgy?
No.
Okay. I've been to hierarchical liturgies where the primate of every Orthodox church is commemorated- I had assumed this was the usual practice.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Iconodule said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Iconodule said:
Doesn't every bishop (outside the MP of course)  normally commemorate the EP along with other patriarchs during hierarchical divine liturgy?
No.
Okay. I've been to hierarchical liturgies where the primate of every Orthodox church is commemorated- I had assumed this was the usual practice.
No.  Typically the only Liturgies at which this would happen would be those celebrated by the Primate of one of those Churches.
 

Antonis

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It’s only a description of what breaking communion means in practical terms, but done by an ignorant news source that makes it sound like more than what it is.
 

Justin Kolodziej

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Saxon said:
I've been to Liturgy at ROCOR, OCA, Serbian, Greek (Canada), and UOCC parishes, and the only time I've heard the Ecumenical Patriarch commemorated was at the latter two, both of which are appropriately under Constantinople. Whenever he was mentioned in conversations that I was privy to with Russian clergy, he was referred to derogatorily, and that was some time before the announcement on Ukraine.
Claiming "First without equals" status will have that effect.
There seems to be an increase of commentary to the effect of "Constantinople is wrong, but Moscow is overreacting...". I think the latter's response is wholly measured. What's all the more astonishing is that not one other Orthodox jurisdiction has come out in support of the EP's position, none, with everyone either vocally supporting the MP or staying silent for their own reasons. And on the contrary, some EP parishes have, or have announced an intention to, secede. Embarrassing and absurd.
Even Metropolitan Kallistos is against the Patriarchate's actions. (transcript in English, video itself overdubbed in Russian) I'm actually a bit surprised, but good for him.

Of course he would like a Pan-Orthodox Synod to solve the issue instead of Russia going ahead and breaking communion with the offenders. No idea how one could be put together though.
 

Iconodule

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Yeah, I was surprised by Met. Kallistos too. I thought there must be some dissenters but didn’t think any of them would go public. I guess he’s in the stage of his career where he really couldn’t care less about where he fits in the Phanar pecking order.
 

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Justin Kolodziej said:
Saxon said:
I've been to Liturgy at ROCOR, OCA, Serbian, Greek (Canada), and UOCC parishes, and the only time I've heard the Ecumenical Patriarch commemorated was at the latter two, both of which are appropriately under Constantinople. Whenever he was mentioned in conversations that I was privy to with Russian clergy, he was referred to derogatorily, and that was some time before the announcement on Ukraine.
Claiming "First without equals" status will have that effect.
There seems to be an increase of commentary to the effect of "Constantinople is wrong, but Moscow is overreacting...". I think the latter's response is wholly measured. What's all the more astonishing is that not one other Orthodox jurisdiction has come out in support of the EP's position, none, with everyone either vocally supporting the MP or staying silent for their own reasons. And on the contrary, some EP parishes have, or have announced an intention to, secede. Embarrassing and absurd.
Even Metropolitan Kallistos is against the Patriarchate's actions. (transcript in English, video itself overdubbed in Russian) I'm actually a bit surprised, but good for him.

Of course he would like a Pan-Orthodox Synod to solve the issue instead of Russia going ahead and breaking communion with the offenders. No idea how one could be put together though.
The video is also available in English:  An Interview with Met. Kallistos by the web portal Slovo Bogoslova
 

Mercurius1

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Well now that the unification "council" is over, I wonder if the monks on Athos will continue to not say anything. Seems as though there should be a point where they either start commemorating schismatics, or, speak out against Patriarch Bartholomew
 

hecma925

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Iconodule said:
Yeah, I was surprised by Met. Kallistos too. I thought there must be some dissenters but didn’t think any of them would go public. I guess he’s in the stage of his career where he really couldn’t care less about where he fits in the Phanar pecking order.
What end of the pecking order was he ever in?  Being retired helps too.
 

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Iconodule said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Iconodule said:
Doesn't every bishop (outside the MP of course)  normally commemorate the EP along with other patriarchs during hierarchical divine liturgy?
No.
Okay. I've been to hierarchical liturgies where the primate of every Orthodox church is commemorated- I had assumed this was the usual practice.
I never saw this. Abp. Chrysostom only commemorates Bp. Ambrósio of Olinda-Recife and Met. Savas of Warsaw, and he commemorates the former discretionarily.
 

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hecma925 said:
Iconodule said:
Yeah, I was surprised by Met. Kallistos too. I thought there must be some dissenters but didn’t think any of them would go public. I guess he’s in the stage of his career where he really couldn’t care less about where he fits in the Phanar pecking order.
What end of the pecking order was he ever in?  Being retired helps too.
Wait, is he?
 

Ainnir

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Mercurius1 said:
Well now that the unification "council" is over, I wonder if the monks on Athos will continue to not say anything. Seems as though there should be a point where they either start commemorating schismatics, or, speak out against Patriarch Bartholomew
Mercurius1, we are still obligated to use proper titles.  This is a verbal warning only, but be mindful in the future to avoid points.  Thanks.  --Ainnir
 

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Ainnir said:
Mercurius1 said:
Well now that the unification "council" is over, I wonder if the monks on Athos will continue to not say anything. Seems as though there should be a point where they either start commemorating schismatics, or, speak out against Patriarch Bartholomew
Mercurius1, we are still obligated to use proper titles.  This is a verbal warning only, but be mindful in the future to avoid points.  Thanks.  --Ainnir
Whoops, I'm used to doing that for everyone, thanks for the heads up
 

Alpha60

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Justin Kolodziej said:
Saxon said:
I've been to Liturgy at ROCOR, OCA, Serbian, Greek (Canada), and UOCC parishes, and the only time I've heard the Ecumenical Patriarch commemorated was at the latter two, both of which are appropriately under Constantinople. Whenever he was mentioned in conversations that I was privy to with Russian clergy, he was referred to derogatorily, and that was some time before the announcement on Ukraine.
Claiming "First without equals" status will have that effect.
There seems to be an increase of commentary to the effect of "Constantinople is wrong, but Moscow is overreacting...". I think the latter's response is wholly measured. What's all the more astonishing is that not one other Orthodox jurisdiction has come out in support of the EP's position, none, with everyone either vocally supporting the MP or staying silent for their own reasons. And on the contrary, some EP parishes have, or have announced an intention to, secede. Embarrassing and absurd.
Even Metropolitan Kallistos is against the Patriarchate's actions. (transcript in English, video itself overdubbed in Russian) I'm actually a bit surprised, but good for him.

Of course he would like a Pan-Orthodox Synod to solve the issue instead of Russia going ahead and breaking communion with the offenders. No idea how one could be put together though.
Indeed so, that bit of news regarding the Metropolitan gives me some much needed cheer.
 

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Will the monasteries on Mt. Athos start communing the schismatics from Ukraine when they visit?
 

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Mercurius1 said:
Will the monasteries on Mt. Athos start communing the schismatics from Ukraine when they visit?
Only after they have been baptized.
 

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ICXCNIKA said:
Mercurius1 said:
Will the monasteries on Mt. Athos start communing the schismatics from Ukraine when they visit?
Only after they have been baptized.

If they are under the EP, don't they have to commune them? Just curious about how the logistics will work out since the Ukrainians have been regularized by Patriarch Bartholomew
 

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Mercurius1 said:
ICXCNIKA said:
Mercurius1 said:
Will the monasteries on Mt. Athos start communing the schismatics from Ukraine when they visit?
Only after they have been baptized.

If they are under the EP, don't they have to commune them? Just curious about how the logistics will work out since the Ukrainians have been regularized by Patriarch Bartholomew
I really have no idea. I just know that the Monks on Mt Athos do things their own way.
 

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Each monastery is under their abbot.
 

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hecma925 said:
Each monastery is under their abbot.
So they are not bound by the rules of the EP, only their abbot?
 

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Of course they must obey Patriarch Bartholomew as their bishop. On this Ukraine question I get the sense (from the little I've read online) that there is no consensus but a fair number of the monks will go along with the EP. Actually turning away members of the EP's Ukraine exarchate would be a clear act of disobedience.
 

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Iconodule said:
Of course they must obey Patriarch Bartholomew as their bishop. On this Ukraine question I get the sense (from the little I've read online) that there is no consensus but a fair number of the monks will go along with the EP. Actually turning away members of the EP's Ukraine exarchate would be a clear act of disobedience.
Can you provide any official proof of the alleged "EP's Ukraine exarchate"?
 

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StanislavU said:
Iconodule said:
Of course they must obey Patriarch Bartholomew as their bishop. On this Ukraine question I get the sense (from the little I've read online) that there is no consensus but a fair number of the monks will go along with the EP. Actually turning away members of the EP's Ukraine exarchate would be a clear act of disobedience.
Can you provide any official proof of the alleged "EP's Ukraine exarchate"?
Apart from the draft charter, which clearly envisions a church structure subordinate to Constantinople, no. However Archimandrite Cyril Hovorun gave a very interesting interview where he suspects that the new Ukrainian church will be guided by Constantinople for a very long time. Fr. Cyril is an MP priest but he is an outspoken supporter of the EP's actions in Ukraine and seems to have his finger pretty well on the pulse of the Phanar when it comes to Ukraine. He seems slightly pessimistic about the near future of the new church and does not think Ukrainian Orthodox, of any faction, have the maturity to manage the church independently. Without the strong guidance of Constantinople the thing could easily break apart. He also points out that any revision of the charter by the Ukrainian bishops would prompt Constantinople to rewrite or reconsider the tomos. What kind of autocephalous church does not write its own statutes?

Lastly, the EP itself has made it clear that it does not consider any church truly autocephalous until that autocephaly is approved at an ecumenical council (chaired by the EP, naturally). Until that point the EP reserves the right to revoke autocephaly- this is one of their indirect arguments justifying the intervention in Ukraine. The Bulgarians and Serbs learned this firsthand when, with the Sultan's enforcement, the EP abolished their autocephaly and reabsorbed them. Archbishop Job even made the threat that Russia's autocephaly could be revoked. Ukrainian autocephalists have been nodding along with all this so far, "Yeah, yeah, the EP can do all that stuff, stick it to Russia!" without taking a moment to think that it could just as well apply to them.
 

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Iconodule said:
StanislavU said:
Iconodule said:
Of course they must obey Patriarch Bartholomew as their bishop. On this Ukraine question I get the sense (from the little I've read online) that there is no consensus but a fair number of the monks will go along with the EP. Actually turning away members of the EP's Ukraine exarchate would be a clear act of disobedience.
Can you provide any official proof of the alleged "EP's Ukraine exarchate"?
Apart from the draft charter, which clearly envisions a church structure subordinate to Constantinople, no. However Archimandrite Cyril Hovorun gave a very interesting interview where he suspects that the new Ukrainian church will be guided by Constantinople for a very long time. Fr. Cyril is an MP priest but he is an outspoken supporter of the EP's actions in Ukraine and seems to have his finger pretty well on the pulse of the Phanar when it comes to Ukraine. He seems slightly pessimistic about the near future of the new church and does not think Ukrainian Orthodox, of any faction, have the maturity to manage the church independently. Without the strong guidance of Constantinople the thing could easily break apart. He also points out that any revision of the charter by the Ukrainian bishops would prompt Constantinople to rewrite or reconsider the tomos. What kind of autocephalous church does not write its own statutes?

Lastly, the EP itself has made it clear that it does not consider any church truly autocephalous until that autocephaly is approved at an ecumenical council (chaired by the EP, naturally). Until that point the EP reserves the right to revoke autocephaly- this is one of their indirect arguments justifying the intervention in Ukraine. The Bulgarians and Serbs learned this firsthand when, with the Sultan's enforcement, the EP abolished their autocephaly and reabsorbed them. Archbishop Job even made the threat that Russia's autocephaly could be revoked. Ukrainian autocephalists have been nodding along with all this so far, "Yeah, yeah, the EP can do all that stuff, stick it to Russia!" without taking a moment to think that it could just as well apply to them.
The EP has a long and disturbing history of bowing to pressure from non-Orthodox (and, in these cases, aggressively anti-Christian) political authorities in structuring the Church. Also, are you referring to Archbishop Job Getcha?
 

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Saxon said:
The EP has a long and disturbing history of bowing to pressure from non-Orthodox (and, in these cases, aggressively anti-Christian) political authorities in structuring the Church.
To be fair they are not alone in that.

Also, are you referring to Archbishop Job Getcha?
Yes, and his BBC interview.
 

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Iconodule said:
Saxon said:
The EP has a long and disturbing history of bowing to pressure from non-Orthodox (and, in these cases, aggressively anti-Christian) political authorities in structuring the Church.
To be fair they are not alone in that.

Also, are you referring to Archbishop Job Getcha?
Yes, and his BBC interview.
Archbishop Job is a Ukrainian-Canadian and, having been married to one and spent a great deal of time around that community, the anti-Russian sentiment is astounding. It's no small wonder that his tenure was contentious, both during and after.

I've seen some articles stating that the EP is considering granting autocephaly to the Macedonian Orthodox Church. The situation with the church in Serbia-Macedonia is highly analogous to Russia-Ukraine. Looks like the EP is planning on taking revenge on Serbia for vocally supporting the MP's position in Ukraine. Ohrid Archbishopric monasteries had better start hiding their valuables.
 

Iconodule

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I could be wrong but I think the EP is going to hold off on Macedonia for a while. I think Ukraine is going to keep them busy for a while.
 
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