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UOC-KP and UAOC Taking Concrete Steps Toward Merger

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On April 22, the Press-Center of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyivan Patriarchate issued a press release:
http://www.cerkva.info/uk/news/patriarkh/6717-uaoc.html

In the press release, the UOC-KP invited the UAOC to reconcile with it and pledged a willingness to keep the ecclesiastical form, "Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church."  It expressed a desire to begin the dialogue immediately.

The following day, on April 23, the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church responded:
http://patriarchia.org.ua/?cat=3

The UAOC has appointed five persons to a commission to begin serious negotiations of unification after the UAOC's June 4-5 Sobor in Kyiv, at which they will elect a new hierarch to replace Met. Mefodij of blessed memory.  The UAOC, in response to the solicitation by the UOC-KP, has expressed a preference that the united church be called, "The Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church of the Kyivan Patriarchate."  They invite the UOC-KP to agree with their proposal or to formulate its own counterproposal for discussion.

The UAOC further proposed that, once details are worked out, a joint Sobor be called to elect a new primate of the new UAOC-KP.

The UAOC also addressed the UOC-MP:

If the UOC-MP wants to participate in the unification process, we are ready to negotiate on terms of sincere, brotherly, Christian love.
Time will tell what becomes of this.  But the news is interesting and worth following.
 

Cyrillic

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Is it that they as Ukrainians don't want to be governed from Moscow or do they really want autocephaly for its own sake? Would they, theoretically speaking, agree to be under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate?
 

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If they only wanted autocephaly there wouldn't be 3 (or 5) autocephalous Ukrainian Churches already.
 
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That's the nature of schisms. They splinter apart rather quickly. While I guess it's good that they're burying the hatchet, it would be better if they reconciled themselves with the canonical Church. 
 

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Cyrillic said:
Is it that they as Ukrainians don't want to be governed from Moscow or do they really want autocephaly for its own sake? Would they, theoretically speaking, agree to be under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate?
Historically they were (up until the 1700s or so, when Tsarist Russia defeated the Zaporizhian Host, the precursor to Ukraine). I'm not exactly sure how, or why, Ukraine went from the EP to the MP, or even if the MP acted canonically in seizing control. Not sure how they would feel about going back, although I suspect they would prefer that over submitting to the Strelkovs of the world.

Given that the small Greek community in Turkey is demographically in dire straits, I even wonder if it might be possible to move the EP's residence to Kiev (in the same way that Antioch's patriarchate was moved to Damascus). The Turks might throw a hissy fit, though (or else they might be secretly relieved; I'm not sure).

Ukrainians in diaspora are under the EP.
 

Cyrillic

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I can imagine Ukrainians not wanting to be under the MP, with the Moscow Patriarch becoming ever closer to the Russian state. Giving Ukraine to the EP could very well be the pastoral thing to do, but such a thing would be unpopular in Russia, for it would shatter the pan-slavist dream.
 

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Minnesotan said:
Cyrillic said:
Is it that they as Ukrainians don't want to be governed from Moscow or do they really want autocephaly for its own sake? Would they, theoretically speaking, agree to be under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate?
Historically they were (up until the 1700s or so, when Tsarist Russia defeated the Zaporizhian Host, the precursor to Ukraine). I'm not exactly sure how, or why, Ukraine went from the EP to the MP, or even if the MP acted canonically in seizing control. Not sure how they would feel about going back, although I suspect they would prefer that over submitting to the Strelkovs of the world.

Given that the small Greek community in Turkey is demographically in dire straits, I even wonder if it might be possible to move the EP's residence to Kiev (in the same way that Antioch's patriarchate was moved to Damascus). The Turks might throw a hissy fit, though (or else they might be secretly relieved; I'm not sure).

Ukrainians in diaspora are under the EP.
Moving the Greek Ecumenical Patriarchate to cradle city of Slavic Orthodoxy and merging two of the main Orthodox cultural streams would be an interesting, though unlikely, turn of events. :)
 

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The UAOC has for years petitioned the EP to come under the EP umbrella similiarly to the UOCUSA and UOCC. The EP will not upset Mosocw and therefor will not accept any church in Ukraine under her Omophoron. She preaches that all 3 branches in Ukraine must unite, but the Moscow branch will never unite with the KP and UAOC unless the KP and UAOC agree to go under Moscow and renounce autocephally which of course will never happen. Even if/when the UAOC and KP unite, the EP and rest of the Canonical Orthodox World will not recognize it due to fear and pressure from Moscow.
 

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cossack 316 said:
The UAOC has for years petitioned the EP to come under the EP umbrella similiarly to the UOCUSA and UOCC. The EP will not upset Mosocw and therefor will not accept any church in Ukraine under her Omophoron. She preaches that all 3 branches in Ukraine must unite, but the Moscow branch will never unite with the KP and UAOC unless the KP and UAOC agree to go under Moscow and renounce autocephally which of course will never happen. Even if/when the UAOC and KP unite, the EP and rest of the Canonical Orthodox World will not recognize it due to fear and pressure from Moscow.
So it is as I feared. What a shame.
 
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Cossack 316 has a point, but I think that there is more to the story.  The relationship between Constantinople and Moscow is an important one and that factor is a key consideration.

There have been overtures in the past from the Ecumenical Patriarchate to the Patriarchate of Kyiv, but these did not progress to any kind of mutually agreeable scenario.  To answer the original question, the issue of whether it would be acceptable for the non-MP Orthodox in Ukraine to affiliate with the EP has proponents on both sides.  It is true that the UAOC has historically been more receptive to this scenario, but none has been more so than Archbishop Ihor (Isichenko) of the Kharkiv-Poltava Diocese of the UAOC.  (This Diocese became administratively severed from the rest of the UAOC because of some problems in that Communion over the past decade or so.  I don't know exactly what the current situation is although I think I saw something somewhere about the proposed plan of union coming out of the UAOC addressing the Kharkiv-Poltava Diocesan priests in some scenario.  I'd need to go back and look at that.)  Some time ago, if I recall, I read that Archbishop Ihor, who enjoys an exceptionally good relationship with the Ukrainian Diaspora Church, affirmatively requested that Metropolitan Antony of the UOC-USA exercise his prerogative under the 2000 testament of Patriarch Dmitry of blessed memory of the UAOC to assume authority in the UAOC and bring it under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, which he himself is under.  Nothing concrete came of this request, but it was noted.  There was, I think, some dissension between Archbishop Ihor and Metropolitan Mefodij.  Most recently, in the first week of April, it appears that Archbishop Ihor gave an interview to RISU in which he announced that, following a decision by a Sobor of the Kharkiv-Poltava Eparchy, he had approached Patriarch Sviatoslav of the UGCC regarding advice on "Eucharistic communion and administrative unity," although on what basis, remains unclear; he did not come out and say, as far as I could read, that he hoped to bring his diocese into the UGCC, only that he was seeking advice.

I don't know how strong the appetite was in the rest of the UAOC to affiliate with the Ecumenical Patriarchate, although their desire to heal the split was apparently the reason why they stopped naming Patriarchs in 2000.  I think that, as a whole, they are by far more willing to affiliate with the Ecumenical Patriarchate than is the UOC-KP, however, which waits for a recognition of its autocephaly.  Other than stating the facts I'm not going to go into the "what-ifs" that exist among the UOC-USA, UOCC, UOC-KP, and UAOC to this day.  There are strong views on many sides there.

But it is not telling tales out of school (this was all published on the UOC-USA website and/or its journal, the Ukrainian Orthodox Word) to say that there are some signs toward reconciliation amongst some of these groups.  A month or two ago, the hierarchs of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Diaspora (the ones under the Ecumenical Patriarchate) made a pilgrimage to Ukraine to commemorate the events of the Maidan, to visit homeless shelters, orphanages, and soup kitchens, and to distribute aid and blessings to wounded veterans, orphans, the homeless, and the displaced.  Thousands of dollars, if not tens of thousands, were distributed.  During the course of that trip, which lasted a week or more, the hierarchs visited, and were well received by, the UAOC and the UOC-KP bishops, including Archbishop Ihor, the late Metropolitan Mefodij, and Patriarch Filaret.  They also met with Metropolitan Onufry's delegate at the Kyiv Pecherska Lavra, who stressed the MP's position that the only solution was a "canonical one."  They also held a public session, together with other religious leaders of Ukraine, with President Poroshenko (himself a member of the UOC-MP).  Lengthy meetings occurred and there was much discussion.  Following this, in March, they traveled to Constantinople and met with His All-Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch to discuss the situation in detail.  I have no further knowledge of this, but the visit itself is public knowledge from the website.

I think, however, that the domestic situation may drive circumstances more than the directions of external hierarchs, and I think that this is true whether the hierarchs are in the Diaspora, in Moscow, or in Constantinople.  By that, I mean that in the past year or so, there has been a decided shift among the faithful in Ukraine.  There was an incident a few weeks ago where some UOC-MP hierarchs caused a stir in parliament.  (Since this is not politics, I will leave it at that.)  But soon thereafter, at least two parishes of the UOC-MP voted to withdraw from that Communion and to affiliate with the UOC-KP.  There is a decided trend in this direction -- at one point last year, I read that more than 30 parishes had done the same thing.  I don't have the most recent statistics.

A poll was taken over December 2014-January 2015 regarding religious affiliation in Ukraine by the International Centre for Policy Studies, a non-governmental Ukrainian polling institute founded in 1994, showed a remarkable shift:  44.2% of Ukrainians now identify with the UOC-KP, 20.8% of Ukrainians now identify with the UOC-MP, 2.4% of Ukrainians identify with the UAOC, 11% identify with the UGCC, 9.5% identify as atheists, and smaller percentages identify with other faiths.  Again, this is a gauge of popular adherence and has nothing to do with whether people actually go to the church of their profession on a regular basis or if the church itself would count them as members (i.e., having received the sacraments).  Of those who counted themselves as Orthodox, a majority reported adherence to the UOC-KP except in Donbass, which was 55% MP to 9% KP, and the area around Transcarpathia, which was 31% MP to 23% KP, but both of which were outnumbered by the Greek Catholics, 33%, second only to Galicia, which had 66% self-reporting as Greek Catholics.

The study is described here (in the Russian language):
http://apostrophe.com.ua/article/society/2015-04-09/kak-voyna-povliyala-na-religioznyie-vzglyadyi-ukraintsev/1557#.VSl7nJuP7uY.vk

These statistics, I think, are worth watching and what happens on the ground will inform the decision-making to a great degree.  Most recently, I heard rumors (only rumors, the rumbling of the rumor mill which can be quite unreliable) that there are those who are interested in pursuing a switch of affiliation from the Pochayiv Lavra from the UOC-MP to the UOC-KP.  Again, worth watching. 
 

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Minnesotan said:
Historically they were (up until the 1700s or so, when Tsarist Russia defeated the Zaporizhian Host, the precursor to Ukraine). I'm not exactly sure how, or why, Ukraine went from the EP to the MP, or even if the MP acted canonically in seizing control.
"I know nothing but I will still comment."

Yurysprudentsiya said:
I don't know exactly what the current situation is although I think I saw something somewhere about the proposed plan of union coming out of the UAOC addressing the Kharkiv-Poltava Diocesan priests in some scenario.
IIRC not long ago there was a movement of parishes that used to be within Abp. Isichenko's UAOC to move to the "mainstream" UAOC. Wasn't interested in that so I didn't follow the details. seen only headline on RIsU.
 

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Yurysprudentsiya said:
Of those who counted themselves as Orthodox, a majority reported adherence to the UOC-KP except in Donbass, which was 55% MP to 9% KP, and the area around Transcarpathia, which was 31% MP to 23% KP, but both of which were outnumbered by the Greek Catholics, 33%, second only to Galicia, which had 66% self-reporting as Greek Catholics.
and where is Met. Onufriy from?

A shame.
 

ialmisry

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mike said:
Minnesotan said:
Historically they were (up until the 1700s or so, when Tsarist Russia defeated the Zaporizhian Host, the precursor to Ukraine). I'm not exactly sure how, or why, Ukraine went from the EP to the MP, or even if the MP acted canonically in seizing control.
"I know nothing but I will still comment."
To comment from the Phanar's alleged Tomos to Poland, which the UAOC claims
Examining this request with love, taking into consideration the structions of the holy canons, which have established that the system of church affairs should correspond with the political and community forms (IV Ecumenical Council, canon 17, VI Ecumenical Council, canon 38), as well as the reasoning of Photius: "It is acceptable that laws which relate to church affairs, and especially parish matters, should correspond with political and administrative changes", from another point of view, bowing before the demands of canonical obligations, which impose upon our Holy Ecumenical See concern for Orthodox Churches, who are in need;
http://www.ukrainianorthodoxchurchworldwide.com/tomos.html
 

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ialmisry said:
Yurysprudentsiya said:
Of those who counted themselves as Orthodox, a majority reported adherence to the UOC-KP except in Donbass, which was 55% MP to 9% KP, and the area around Transcarpathia, which was 31% MP to 23% KP, but both of which were outnumbered by the Greek Catholics, 33%, second only to Galicia, which had 66% self-reporting as Greek Catholics.
and where is Met. Onufriy from?
And where is Patriarch Philaret from?
 

ialmisry

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mike said:
ialmisry said:
Yurysprudentsiya said:
Of those who counted themselves as Orthodox, a majority reported adherence to the UOC-KP except in Donbass, which was 55% MP to 9% KP, and the area around Transcarpathia, which was 31% MP to 23% KP, but both of which were outnumbered by the Greek Catholics, 33%, second only to Galicia, which had 66% self-reporting as Greek Catholics.
and where is Met. Onufriy from?
And where is Patriarch Philaret from?
it doesn't matter.
 
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ialmisry said:
Yurysprudentsiya said:
Of those who counted themselves as Orthodox, a majority reported adherence to the UOC-KP except in Donbass, which was 55% MP to 9% KP, and the area around Transcarpathia, which was 31% MP to 23% KP, but both of which were outnumbered by the Greek Catholics, 33%, second only to Galicia, which had 66% self-reporting as Greek Catholics.
and where is Met. Onufriy from?

A shame.
His Eminence was born in Chernivtsi region of Ukraine, in the southwest, where he lived for his first 25 years.  He then entered the seminary in Moscow, and lived and served in Russia from 1969 to 1988.  He has lived in Ukraine for the past 27 or or so years, serving first for a few years at Pochayiv Lavra and then mostly as Bishop (Archbishop, Metropolitan) in Chernivtsi Eparchy, and since became Metropolitan of Kyiv in 2014.
 
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mike said:
ialmisry said:
Yurysprudentsiya said:
Of those who counted themselves as Orthodox, a majority reported adherence to the UOC-KP except in Donbass, which was 55% MP to 9% KP, and the area around Transcarpathia, which was 31% MP to 23% KP, but both of which were outnumbered by the Greek Catholics, 33%, second only to Galicia, which had 66% self-reporting as Greek Catholics.
and where is Met. Onufriy from?
And where is Patriarch Philaret from?
His Holiness Patriarch Filaret is a native of a village in Donets'k oblast, Ukraine (in Donbass) in 1929.  He studied in Odessa, Ukraine, and also studied in Moscow, where he lived from 1950 to 1956, spending also about a year in Saratov, Russia.  He returned to Ukraine in 1957, to the Kyiv Theological Seminary.  From 1960 to 1966 he served at Kyiv, later at Leningrad, in Vienna, and in Moscow.  He returned to Kyiv in 1966 and has been there since. 
 

ialmisry

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Yurysprudentsiya said:
ialmisry said:
Yurysprudentsiya said:
Of those who counted themselves as Orthodox, a majority reported adherence to the UOC-KP except in Donbass, which was 55% MP to 9% KP, and the area around Transcarpathia, which was 31% MP to 23% KP, but both of which were outnumbered by the Greek Catholics, 33%, second only to Galicia, which had 66% self-reporting as Greek Catholics.
and where is Met. Onufriy from?

A shame.
His Eminence was born in Chernivtsi region of Ukraine, in the southwest, where he lived for his first 25 years.  He then entered the seminary in Moscow, and lived and served in Russia from 1969 to 1988.  He has lived in Ukraine for the past 27 or or so years, serving first for a few years at Pochayiv Lavra and then mostly as Bishop (Archbishop, Metropolitan) in Chernivtsi Eparchy, and since became Metropolitan of Kyiv in 2014.
It was a rhetorical question, but you answered the OP.
 
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Remember, folks:  Discussion only, no debate.  Let's keep it civil.

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As a footnote to this discussion, I just came across a news article regarding a parish which switched from UOC-MP to UOC-KP this month:

Parishioners of the only church in the village of Preobrazhenka, in the Kherson Oblast in southern Ukraine, have decided  to join the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyiv Patriarchate.
. . .
The villagers say they were offended by their former priest’s bigotry and reached their decision at a community meeting after the priest refused to pray for fellow countrymen who are protecting their country in the ATO zone.

Father Bohdan, the new priest, reports that representatives of the Moscow patriarchate tried to prevent the transfer of the church and organized various provocations, including visits by priests from Moscow, who tried to frighten the villagers with “medieval curses.”
. . .
Source:  http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/05/09/kherson-parishioners-vote-to-join-kyiv-patriarchate/
 

ialmisry

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Yurysprudentsiya said:
As a footnote to this discussion, I just came across a news article regarding a parish which switched from UOC-MP to UOC-KP this month:

Parishioners of the only church in the village of Preobrazhenka, in the Kherson Oblast in southern Ukraine, have decided  to join the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyiv Patriarchate.
. . .
The villagers say they were offended by their former priest’s bigotry and reached their decision at a community meeting after the priest refused to pray for fellow countrymen who are protecting their country in the ATO zone.

Father Bohdan, the new priest, reports that representatives of the Moscow patriarchate tried to prevent the transfer of the church and organized various provocations, including visits by priests from Moscow, who tried to frighten the villagers with “medieval curses.”
. . .
Source:  http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/05/09/kherson-parishioners-vote-to-join-kyiv-patriarchate/
Anyone know the statue/law on such things in Ukraine? In the US, for instance, the old priest would keep the Church and the former parishioners would have to leave.
 
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Here is the 1991 law on Freedom of Conscience and Religious Organizations of Ukraine:
http://zakon4.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/987-12

It doesn't really seem to speak to this issue; it provides generally for deregistration and registration of religious organizations, which presumably could include parishes.

In a December 2014 interview, a UOC-MP official maintained that a unanimous vote of the congregation was required to re-affiliate.  I don't know what he was basing that on, however.

I will post if I find something more concrete.
 
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Apparently, from what I can pick up, this is what was done in Preobrazhenka - signatures were collected to re-register the parish under the Kyivan Patriarchate.
 

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Yurysprudentsiya said:
... the priest refused to pray for fellow countrymen who are protecting their country in the ATO zone.
...
Glory to God and thanks for an orthodox priest!
 

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Here's to hoping it happens! A renewed UAOC-KP may still be in formal schism from the rest of Orthodoxy, but the fewer players on that side of the fence the better, no?
 

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A comment. It is easy to sit thousands of miles away and pontificate on canonical regularity. "This should be"..."that must be"..etc..but when one is in the middle of a boiling cauldron, dispassionate observations and concerns about "the canons" are usually not in the mix...on any side.
 

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hayabusa said:
Yurysprudentsiya said:
... the priest refused to pray for fellow countrymen who are protecting their country in the ATO zone.
...
Glory to God and thanks for an orthodox priest!
Jingoism and ultranationalism are damaging the cause of Orthodoxy. Not only in the Ukraine, where it has caused schism after schism (case in point: the ethnic pride of this priest has caused an entire parish to schism), or in the Balkans, where it has caused an entire nation to have gone over to schism, but also in the rest of the world, where Orthodoxy is seriously risking primarily being associated with raving lunatics with AK-47s and the crimes of the Putins and Karadzices of this world. That is going to push potential converts away from the Church. Grab your AK and keep on cheering, though; if that's what you want.
 

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Cyrillic said:
hayabusa said:
Yurysprudentsiya said:
... the priest refused to pray for fellow countrymen who are protecting their country in the ATO zone.
...
Glory to God and thanks for an orthodox priest!
Jingoism and ultranationalism are damaging the cause of Orthodoxy. Not only in the Ukraine, where it has caused schism after schism (case in point: the ethnic pride of this priest has caused an entire parish to schism), or in the Balkans, where it has caused an entire nation to have gone over to schism, but also in the rest of the world, where Orthodoxy is seriously risking primarily being associated with raving lunatics with AK-47s and the crimes of the Putins and Karadzices of this world. That is going to push potential converts away from the Church. Grab your AK and keep on cheering, though; if that's what you want.
Thank you, Cyrillic. I have been thinking of posting as much for some time.  Not only is the faith of converts at risk, I fear. But I take heart that life at most parishes, unlike life here on the web, remains vibrant and far from such matters.
 

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Cyrillic said:
hayabusa said:
Yurysprudentsiya said:
... the priest refused to pray for fellow countrymen who are protecting their country in the ATO zone.
...
Glory to God and thanks for an orthodox priest!
Jingoism and ultranationalism are damaging the cause of Orthodoxy. Not only in the Ukraine, where it has caused schism after schism (case in point: the ethnic pride of this priest has caused an entire parish to schism), or in the Balkans, where it has caused an entire nation to have gone over to schism, but also in the rest of the world, where Orthodoxy is seriously risking primarily being associated with raving lunatics with AK-47s and the crimes of the Putins and Karadzices of this world. That is going to push potential converts away from the Church. Grab your AK and keep on cheering, though; if that's what you want.
Well said.
 

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Cyrillic said:
hayabusa said:
Yurysprudentsiya said:
... the priest refused to pray for fellow countrymen who are protecting their country in the ATO zone.
...
Glory to God and thanks for an orthodox priest!
Jingoism and ultranationalism are damaging the cause of Orthodoxy. Not only in the Ukraine, where it has caused schism after schism (case in point: the ethnic pride of this priest has caused an entire parish to schism), or in the Balkans, where it has caused an entire nation to have gone over to schism, but also in the rest of the world, where Orthodoxy is seriously risking primarily being associated with raving lunatics with AK-47s and the crimes of the Putins and Karadzices of this world. That is going to push potential converts away from the Church. Grab your AK and keep on cheering, though; if that's what you want.
Since this is a news board, and having in mind that I ought to presume that I would be moderated in the case I respond appropriately, all I can say is that I am puzzled why would you think, being a heterodox, that any sane Orthodox would share your views?
 

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podkarpatska said:
Cyrillic said:
hayabusa said:
Yurysprudentsiya said:
... the priest refused to pray for fellow countrymen who are protecting their country in the ATO zone.
...
Glory to God and thanks for an orthodox priest!
Jingoism and ultranationalism are damaging the cause of Orthodoxy. Not only in the Ukraine, where it has caused schism after schism (case in point: the ethnic pride of this priest has caused an entire parish to schism), or in the Balkans, where it has caused an entire nation to have gone over to schism, but also in the rest of the world, where Orthodoxy is seriously risking primarily being associated with raving lunatics with AK-47s and the crimes of the Putins and Karadzices of this world. That is going to push potential converts away from the Church. Grab your AK and keep on cheering, though; if that's what you want.
Thank you, Cyrillic. I have been thinking of posting as much for some time.  Not only is the faith of converts at risk, I fear. But I take heart that life at most parishes, unlike life here on the web, remains vibrant and far from such matters.
Since so-called ATO are mostly heterodox, how could an Orthodox priest agree to pray for them in their war against Orthodox and Orthodoxy?
 

PeterTheAleut

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hayabusa said:
Cyrillic said:
hayabusa said:
Yurysprudentsiya said:
... the priest refused to pray for fellow countrymen who are protecting their country in the ATO zone.
...
Glory to God and thanks for an orthodox priest!
Jingoism and ultranationalism are damaging the cause of Orthodoxy. Not only in the Ukraine, where it has caused schism after schism (case in point: the ethnic pride of this priest has caused an entire parish to schism), or in the Balkans, where it has caused an entire nation to have gone over to schism, but also in the rest of the world, where Orthodoxy is seriously risking primarily being associated with raving lunatics with AK-47s and the crimes of the Putins and Karadzices of this world. That is going to push potential converts away from the Church. Grab your AK and keep on cheering, though; if that's what you want.
Since this is a news board, and having in mind that I ought to presume that I would be moderated in the case I respond appropriately, all I can say is that I am puzzled why would you think, being a heterodox, that any sane Orthodox would share your views?
Where did Cyrillic ever say he isn't Orthodox? ???
 

PeterTheAleut

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hayabusa said:
podkarpatska said:
Cyrillic said:
hayabusa said:
Yurysprudentsiya said:
... the priest refused to pray for fellow countrymen who are protecting their country in the ATO zone.
...
Glory to God and thanks for an orthodox priest!
Jingoism and ultranationalism are damaging the cause of Orthodoxy. Not only in the Ukraine, where it has caused schism after schism (case in point: the ethnic pride of this priest has caused an entire parish to schism), or in the Balkans, where it has caused an entire nation to have gone over to schism, but also in the rest of the world, where Orthodoxy is seriously risking primarily being associated with raving lunatics with AK-47s and the crimes of the Putins and Karadzices of this world. That is going to push potential converts away from the Church. Grab your AK and keep on cheering, though; if that's what you want.
Thank you, Cyrillic. I have been thinking of posting as much for some time.  Not only is the faith of converts at risk, I fear. But I take heart that life at most parishes, unlike life here on the web, remains vibrant and far from such matters.
Since so-called ATO are mostly heterodox, how could an Orthodox priest agree to pray for them in their war against Orthodox and Orthodoxy?
ATO? What does that acronym mean?
 

hayabusa

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PeterTheAleut said:
hayabusa said:
Cyrillic said:
hayabusa said:
Yurysprudentsiya said:
... the priest refused to pray for fellow countrymen who are protecting their country in the ATO zone.
...
Glory to God and thanks for an orthodox priest!
Jingoism and ultranationalism are damaging the cause of Orthodoxy. Not only in the Ukraine, where it has caused schism after schism (case in point: the ethnic pride of this priest has caused an entire parish to schism), or in the Balkans, where it has caused an entire nation to have gone over to schism, but also in the rest of the world, where Orthodoxy is seriously risking primarily being associated with raving lunatics with AK-47s and the crimes of the Putins and Karadzices of this world. That is going to push potential converts away from the Church. Grab your AK and keep on cheering, though; if that's what you want.
Since this is a news board, and having in mind that I ought to presume that I would be moderated in the case I respond appropriately, all I can say is that I am puzzled why would you think, being a heterodox, that any sane Orthodox would share your views?
Where did Cyrillic ever say he isn't Orthodox? ???
Somewhere on this board.
 

hayabusa

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PeterTheAleut said:
hayabusa said:
podkarpatska said:
Cyrillic said:
hayabusa said:
Yurysprudentsiya said:
... the priest refused to pray for fellow countrymen who are protecting their country in the ATO zone.
...
Glory to God and thanks for an orthodox priest!
Jingoism and ultranationalism are damaging the cause of Orthodoxy. Not only in the Ukraine, where it has caused schism after schism (case in point: the ethnic pride of this priest has caused an entire parish to schism), or in the Balkans, where it has caused an entire nation to have gone over to schism, but also in the rest of the world, where Orthodoxy is seriously risking primarily being associated with raving lunatics with AK-47s and the crimes of the Putins and Karadzices of this world. That is going to push potential converts away from the Church. Grab your AK and keep on cheering, though; if that's what you want.
Thank you, Cyrillic. I have been thinking of posting as much for some time.  Not only is the faith of converts at risk, I fear. But I take heart that life at most parishes, unlike life here on the web, remains vibrant and far from such matters.
Since so-called ATO are mostly heterodox, how could an Orthodox priest agree to pray for them in their war against Orthodox and Orthodoxy?
ATO? What does that acronym mean?
Ask your fellow moderator of this section. He was the one who brought the term in.
 

PeterTheAleut

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hayabusa said:
PeterTheAleut said:
hayabusa said:
Cyrillic said:
hayabusa said:
Yurysprudentsiya said:
... the priest refused to pray for fellow countrymen who are protecting their country in the ATO zone.
...
Glory to God and thanks for an orthodox priest!
Jingoism and ultranationalism are damaging the cause of Orthodoxy. Not only in the Ukraine, where it has caused schism after schism (case in point: the ethnic pride of this priest has caused an entire parish to schism), or in the Balkans, where it has caused an entire nation to have gone over to schism, but also in the rest of the world, where Orthodoxy is seriously risking primarily being associated with raving lunatics with AK-47s and the crimes of the Putins and Karadzices of this world. That is going to push potential converts away from the Church. Grab your AK and keep on cheering, though; if that's what you want.
Since this is a news board, and having in mind that I ought to presume that I would be moderated in the case I respond appropriately, all I can say is that I am puzzled why would you think, being a heterodox, that any sane Orthodox would share your views?
Where did Cyrillic ever say he isn't Orthodox? ???
Somewhere on this board.
I doubt that. AFAIK, Cyrillic joined the Church after joining this forum years ago and has never departed from the faith since.
 

hayabusa

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PeterTheAleut said:
hayabusa said:
PeterTheAleut said:
hayabusa said:
Cyrillic said:
hayabusa said:
Yurysprudentsiya said:
... the priest refused to pray for fellow countrymen who are protecting their country in the ATO zone.
...
Glory to God and thanks for an orthodox priest!
Jingoism and ultranationalism are damaging the cause of Orthodoxy. Not only in the Ukraine, where it has caused schism after schism (case in point: the ethnic pride of this priest has caused an entire parish to schism), or in the Balkans, where it has caused an entire nation to have gone over to schism, but also in the rest of the world, where Orthodoxy is seriously risking primarily being associated with raving lunatics with AK-47s and the crimes of the Putins and Karadzices of this world. That is going to push potential converts away from the Church. Grab your AK and keep on cheering, though; if that's what you want.
Since this is a news board, and having in mind that I ought to presume that I would be moderated in the case I respond appropriately, all I can say is that I am puzzled why would you think, being a heterodox, that any sane Orthodox would share your views?
Where did Cyrillic ever say he isn't Orthodox? ???
Somewhere on this board.
I doubt that. AFAIK, Cyrillic joined the Church after joining this forum years ago and has never departed from the faith since.
In that case, It must have been that I had read and old thread and hadn't been updated about the issue.

If that's the case, my question should be re-phrased to why does he think his (western) worldview bears any relevance to Orthodox?
 
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