Update on trevor72694

Jetavan

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Rufus said:
Jetavan said:
Rufus said:
Jetavan said:
Rufus said:
Jetavan said:
Rufus said:
Jetavan said:
Rufus said:
OK, logic isn't my thing, but let's just take a look at this. We'll create a model scenario that simplifies the problem for us.

You have a universe in which there are one billion different possibilities. Only one of them can happen. Lo and behold! one of them happens.
Which possibility happened?
That's not part of the argument presented. But we can go there.

Tell me which possibility happened.
I asked first. 8)
OK, I'll pick, then. The most amazing possibility.
Are you saying, then, that at each moment in time, out of billions of possibilities, the most amazing possibility happens?
Yes. I picked the most amazing possibility.

Let's cut to the chase.

Would you say that life is the most amazing possibility?
If the dinosaurs had survived in all of their glory up to today, then I would consider that possibility more amazing than the current state of affairs.
OK. As I said before: wizards.

So what are you working towards? ???
Are you saying that this is the best of all possible worlds?
 

Quinault

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Well, from my standpoint it was off the tracks from the start

You don't need to tell anyone that you identify as a homosexual. It doesn't really seem to matter IMO since you aren't actually in a relationship. You are a homosexual in theory, not practice. You could have your first sexual encounter with a man and HATE it. So you identifying as homosexual doesn't mean diddly squat to me. Feeling tingly at the thought, doesn't mean enjoyment in the act ;)

And as far as your faith goes; you don't need to tell strangers online about that either. If I posted online every time my faith was high or low, my post count would be 5x what it is now :D
 

Cavaradossi

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Quinault said:
Well, from my standpoint it was off the tracks from the start

You don't need to tell anyone that you identify as a homosexual. It doesn't really seem to matter IMO since you aren't actually in a relationship. You are a homosexual in theory, not practice. You could have your first sexual encounter with a man and HATE it. So you identifying as homosexual doesn't mean diddly squat to me. Feeling tingly at the thought, doesn't mean enjoyment in the act ;)
It's a pretty good indicator...
 

trevor72694

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Quinault said:
Well, from my standpoint it was off the tracks from the start

You don't need to tell anyone that you identify as a homosexual. It doesn't really seem to matter IMO since you aren't actually in a relationship. You are a homosexual in theory, not practice. You could have your first sexual encounter with a man and HATE it. So you identifying as homosexual doesn't mean diddly squat to me. Feeling tingly at the thought, doesn't mean enjoyment in the act ;)

And as far as your faith goes; you don't need to tell strangers online about that either. If I posted online every time my faith was high or low, my post count would be 5x what it is now :D
Quinault, you're awesome.  :laugh: I never thought of it that way.
 

Quinault

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Cavaradossi said:
Quinault said:
Well, from my standpoint it was off the tracks from the start

You don't need to tell anyone that you identify as a homosexual. It doesn't really seem to matter IMO since you aren't actually in a relationship. You are a homosexual in theory, not practice. You could have your first sexual encounter with a man and HATE it. So you identifying as homosexual doesn't mean diddly squat to me. Feeling tingly at the thought, doesn't mean enjoyment in the act ;)
It's a pretty good indicator...
I don't think so, at least not for teens in the modern age. When you factor in the desire for a positive relationship with a parent of the same sex, things get muddled further. Yes, I believe there are people that are indeed homosexual. But I also think there are people that crave a healthy relationship with a person of the same sex, and mistake it for sexual attraction. Not that I think everyone should "try it" to know. But I have known plenty of people that mistook those desires for a relationship for sexual attraction like bi-sexuality, or homosexuality. After actually having a homosexual/heterosexual relationship for awhile, they figured out it wasn't what they really wanted.

The cook where I used to work was very, very gay. He had a fling with a female teacher. They had this relationship briefly, but ultimately he didn't really want to have a relationship with a woman outside of friendship.

Conversely, I have met plenty of people that "tried out" being gay for awhile, only to discover that they didn't really enjoy a homosexual relationship as much as a heterosexual relationship.

There is a certain amount of involuntary arousal with so much sexual content around you 24/7. Even if your thoughts remain pure, I think there is some sort of pavlovian response on some level. I would be surprised if any teen can make it out of their formative years without wondering at some point if they are homosexual with homosexual content being so prevalent. Not that I think homosexual content makes one homosexual. But it would cause one to wonder more about it than if you never saw any homosexual content at all.
 

dzheremi

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I've never been gay, but I have been in heterosexual relationships where I thought I wanted to be with the lady, but found out after entering the relationship that I didn't really feel that way outside of thinking I wanted that. I think this sort of thing is more common than most people want to admit. I remember when my father got engaged to the woman who would eventually become his third ex-wife, I asked her point blank why they were getting married (since they didn't seem to actually love each other very much, as far as I could tell) and her response was, I kid you not, "Well, we've been together for a while now and haven't killed each other yet, so it seems like the thing to do."

Granted it's not a perfect analogy, but I think the same "X, therefore Y" thinking is at work in both situations. "I am attracted to men and I am a man, therefore I am a homosexual". I'm not so sure one actually follows the other, though certainly every man who is actually/actively gay would also describe themselves as attracted to men.
 

JamesRottnek

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I am curious to hear what exactly the two of you think a gay person is (in more depth than "human").
 

Quinault

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A homosexual person is a person attracted to a person of the same sex, who also receives enjoyment from said relationship emotionally, and sexually. If you just like the idea in theory, I don't think you really know.

In theory a food can sound AWESOME. It can look wonderful, it can even smell perfect. But you can take a bite of that food and be unsatisfied, or even repulsed. So while you thought you really wanted said food item, you really only wanted the idea of that item- not the actual food itself.

If you are celibate, you are celibate. It doesn't matter which sex you are attracted to. If you lust after anyone (same sex, or opposite sex) it is a sin. So ultimately I don't see any difference between a heterosexual lust, and a homosexual lust.
 

dzheremi

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JamesRottnek said:
I am curious to hear what exactly the two of you think a gay person is (in more depth than "human").
Quinault's post summarizes what is also my view.
 

Quinault

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I think girls/women are often the most confused. Girls will do those stupid videos for "girls gone wild" or go to a bar/party where they perform lesbian acts. But ultimately they did that to get the heterosexual men to have a response, and their enjoyment was in that response moreso than the act itself. In general heterosexual women don't find gay men having sex as attractive as heterosexual men find women having sex. So you won't see a "Dudes gone wild" franchise directed at heterosexual women anytime soon.
 

JamesRottnek

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Quinault said:
A homosexual person is a person attracted to a person of the same sex, who also receives enjoyment from said relationship emotionally, and sexually. If you just like the idea in theory, I don't think you really know.

In theory a food can sound AWESOME. It can look wonderful, it can even smell perfect. But you can take a bite of that food and be unsatisfied, or even repulsed. So while you thought you really wanted said food item, you really only wanted the idea of that item- not the actual food itself.

If you are celibate, you are celibate. It doesn't matter which sex you are attracted to. If you lust after anyone (same sex, or opposite sex) it is a sin. So ultimately I don't see any difference between a heterosexual lust, and a homosexual lust.
So would you also say that a heterosexual person is a person attracted to a person of the opposite sex, who also receives enjoyment from said relationship emotionally, and sexually?

If so, are you willing to say that there are a significant number of asexual persons?

And also, I would point out that a failure to receive enjoyment, either emotional or sexual, from a single relationship with a person of the same or opposite sex does not necessarily preclude that enjoyment with a different person of that sex.  I have known many people who had extremely un-enjoyable relationships with, say, a woman (in the case of a man) who then went on to have a very enjoyable relationship with a different women, and I've also known gay men who had a series of very un-enjoyable relationships with other men, and then begun a very enjoyable relationship with a man.

EDIT: And in case I come across as angry, or dismissive, of your post(s), I do not mean to do so.  I think this is a(n at least potentially) genuinely interesting discussion.
 

dzheremi

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I have known people who have gone from straight to asexual to gay, and people who have done the opposite. I have known people who have gone from being lesbians to being heterosexual "men" via drugs and surgeries. Sexual identity is complicated, I suppose. There are asexual people, but I don't really know what that has to do with homosexuality other than that they're both forms of sexual self-identification and self-expression.
 

Quinault

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In the end I think if a person is homosexual, they will only really enjoy sex with someone of the same sex, and if one is heterosexual, they will only really enjoy sex with someone of the opposite sex. For a homosexual, "bad sex" with someone of the same sex will be better than any sex with someone of the opposite sex. The same would be true of heterosexuals; "bad sex" with someone of the opposite sex would be better than any sex with someone of the same sex.

And I agree with dzheremi on asexuality. But I have to caveat that I do think an asexual person can have a fulfilling relationship. Their fulfillment is more dependent upon an individual person/relationship than anything else. So for them temptation isn't about the gender of the person, but the person themselves.
 

Rufus

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Jetavan said:
Rufus said:
Jetavan said:
Rufus said:
Jetavan said:
Rufus said:
Jetavan said:
Rufus said:
Jetavan said:
Rufus said:
OK, logic isn't my thing, but let's just take a look at this. We'll create a model scenario that simplifies the problem for us.

You have a universe in which there are one billion different possibilities. Only one of them can happen. Lo and behold! one of them happens.
Which possibility happened?
That's not part of the argument presented. But we can go there.

Tell me which possibility happened.
I asked first. 8)
OK, I'll pick, then. The most amazing possibility.
Are you saying, then, that at each moment in time, out of billions of possibilities, the most amazing possibility happens?
Yes. I picked the most amazing possibility.

Let's cut to the chase.

Would you say that life is the most amazing possibility?
If the dinosaurs had survived in all of their glory up to today, then I would consider that possibility more amazing than the current state of affairs.
OK. As I said before: wizards.

So what are you working towards? ???
Are you saying that this is the best of all possible worlds?
No, I am preempting that argument. This world may be superlative in some way, but how would anyone know that?
 

ialmisry

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JamesRottnek said:
Quinault said:
A homosexual person is a person attracted to a person of the same sex, who also receives enjoyment from said relationship emotionally, and sexually. If you just like the idea in theory, I don't think you really know.

In theory a food can sound AWESOME. It can look wonderful, it can even smell perfect. But you can take a bite of that food and be unsatisfied, or even repulsed. So while you thought you really wanted said food item, you really only wanted the idea of that item- not the actual food itself.

If you are celibate, you are celibate. It doesn't matter which sex you are attracted to. If you lust after anyone (same sex, or opposite sex) it is a sin. So ultimately I don't see any difference between a heterosexual lust, and a homosexual lust.
So would you also say that a heterosexual person is a person attracted to a person of the opposite sex, who also receives enjoyment from said relationship emotionally, and sexually?

If so, are you willing to say that there are a significant number of asexual persons?

And also, I would point out that a failure to receive enjoyment, either emotional or sexual, from a single relationship with a person of the same or opposite sex does not necessarily preclude that enjoyment with a different person of that sex.  I have known many people who had extremely un-enjoyable relationships with, say, a woman (in the case of a man) who then went on to have a very enjoyable relationship with a different women, and I've also known gay men who had a series of very un-enjoyable relationships with other men, and then begun a very enjoyable relationship with a man.

EDIT: And in case I come across as angry, or dismissive, of your post(s), I do not mean to do so.  I think this is a(n at least potentially) genuinely interesting discussion.
Asexuals are about 1% of the general population, i.e. just a little less than the number of homosexuals in the general population.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexual

I became aware of them when they had a drive at colleges for a support group, selling T-shirts saying "Asexuality: It's not just for amoebas any more."  They do want human relationships, but not sex, which causes a lot of relationship problems (although they are the perfect human beings for St. Jerome and his ilk).
 
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