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"Vatican II created Clown Masses"

Samn!

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It's astonishing that, even in 2021, there are those who keep talking about the supposed "clown masses."
It's shorthand for the strong tendency toward desacralization and self-trivialization in Roman Catholic liturgy. Not necessarily literal clowns.
 

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It's shorthand for the strong tendency toward desacralization and self-trivialization in Roman Catholic liturgy. Not necessarily literal clowns.
I may well be wrong, but I think that, even with the Vatican trying to suppress the TLM, the pendulum is swinging the other way--or at least beginning to. That's certainly the case at my parish.
 

biro

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Samn, have you been to an RCC Mass at all recently?
 

Samn!

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Samn, have you been to an RCC Mass at all recently?
Yeah, I go a few times a year. I'm not anti-RC by any means. I just (almost) always feel very, well, deflated by the experience. That said, I haven't been to a mass in the US in many, many years, and those arguing that there are bright spots in Catholic liturgical life seem to be pretty much exclusively American.
 
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Wyatt

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Yeah, I go a few times a year. I'm not anti-RC by any means. I just (almost) always feel very, well, deflated by the experience. That said, I haven't been to a mass in the US in many, many years, and those arguing that there are bright spots in Catholic liturgical life seem to be pretty much exclusively American.
If you feel "deflated," why do you continue to go a few times a year?
 

Samn!

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If you feel "deflated," why do you continue to go a few times a year?
Live in a Catholic country, have Catholic social obligations. And like one out of fifty times, you catch an actually reverent mass, which is the opposite of deflating.
 

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Live in a Catholic country, have Catholic social obligations. And like one out of fifty times, you catch an actually reverent mass, which is the opposite of deflating.
Well that is refreshing to hear. There were many on this forum and other Orthodox Christians in years past that I have encountered that really seem to see nothing good within our Church at all. Some even would say it is better not go to church at all than to dare set foot in a "Roman Catholic Church."
 

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Well that is refreshing to hear. There were many on this forum and other Orthodox Christians in years past that I have encountered that really seem to see nothing good within our Church at all.
Welcome to internet. Normal people turn morons online. Would include myself too but I'm not sure on the normal part. It's not how anyhow reflective how people are in their day to day lives.
 
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Well that is refreshing to hear. There were many on this forum and other Orthodox Christians in years past that I have encountered that really seem to see nothing good within our Church at all. Some even would say it is better not go to church at all than to dare set foot in a "Roman Catholic Church."
I don't know any Orthodox who view Catholicism like this. There is much good in Catholicism. Good people, good music, valuable things to learn from.

I will go to a Catholic Church for any funeral, wedding, or other similar obligation. I just won't go to a mass in replacement for an Orthodox liturgy.

Catholicism has heretical views from an Orthodox perspective thus we are not in Communion and Rome and the Orthodox Church both view each other as deficient. That is all the Orthodox opinion is. And it's nothing personal.
 

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Your sock is showing (more than usual)
 
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Why the need to bring up clown masses (which don't reflect a good number of Catholic parishes) as a possible strawman, when pope Francis worships the pachamama idol demon and is an obvious latae setentiae apostate according to Rome's own standard?
 

Deacon Lance

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Why the need to bring up clown masses (which don't reflect a good number of Catholic parishes) as a possible strawman, when pope Francis worships the pachamama idol demon and is an obvious latae setentiae apostate according to Rome's own standard?
It wasn’t a pachamama despite the hysteria in TLM crowd.
 
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It wasn’t a pachamama despite the hysteria in TLM crowd.
Pope Francis himself said it was a pachamama. Doesn't matter if it wasn't an exact pachamama anyway. It was a pagan fertility symbol used in a ritual (offering incense bowl) that wasn't part of a Christian liturgy or paraliturgy.
 

Deacon Lance

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“Years ago, in a CELAM meeting, which I had to coordinate in Cochabamba, Bolivia, on the different names of God in the native cultures of the Southern Cone, I asked an Aymara Indian woman if, for them, Pachamama (Mother Earth) and Inti (Father Sun) are gods, and she answered me: Those who haven’t received evangelization consider them gods; for those of us who have been evangelized, they aren’t gods, but God’s best gifts.”

 
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“Years ago, in a CELAM meeting, which I had to coordinate in Cochabamba, Bolivia, on the different names of God in the native cultures of the Southern Cone, I asked an Aymara Indian woman if, for them, Pachamama (Mother Earth) and Inti (Father Sun) are gods, and she answered me: Those who haven’t received evangelization consider them gods; for those of us who have been evangelized, they aren’t gods, but God’s best gifts.”

Syncretism. Just change Pachamama to Zeus and still see if it passes the smell test. The gods of the gentiles (demons) should be utterly rejected.
 

Deacon Lance

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Canticle of the Sun

Most High, all powerful, good Lord,
Yours are the praises, the glory, the honour, and all blessing.

To You alone, Most High, do they belong,
and no man is worthy to mention Your name.

Be praised, my Lord, through all your creatures,
especially through my lord Brother Sun,
who brings the day; and you give light through him.
And he is beautiful and radiant in all his splendour!
Of you, Most High, he bears the likeness.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Sister Moon and the stars,
in heaven you formed them clear and precious and beautiful.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Brother Wind,
and through the air, cloudy and serene,
and every kind of weather through which
You give sustenance to Your creatures.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Sister Water,
which is very useful and humble and precious and chaste.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Brother Fire,
through whom you light the night and he is beautiful
and playful and robust and strong.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Sister Mother Earth,
who sustains us and governs us and who produces
varied fruits with coloured flowers and herbs.

Praised be You, my Lord,
through those who give pardon for Your love,
and bear infirmity and tribulation.

Blessed are those who endure in peace
for by You, Most High, they shall be crowned.

Praised be You, my Lord,
through our Sister Bodily Death,
from whom no living man can escape.

Woe to those who die in mortal sin.
Blessed are those who will
find Your most holy will,
for the second death shall do them no harm.

Praise and bless my Lord,
and give Him thanks
and serve Him with great humility.
 
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Canticle of the Sun

Most High, all powerful, good Lord,
Yours are the praises, the glory, the honour, and all blessing.

To You alone, Most High, do they belong,
and no man is worthy to mention Your name.

Be praised, my Lord, through all your creatures,
especially through my lord Brother Sun,
who brings the day; and you give light through him.
And he is beautiful and radiant in all his splendour!
Of you, Most High, he bears the likeness.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Sister Moon and the stars,
in heaven you formed them clear and precious and beautiful.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Brother Wind,
and through the air, cloudy and serene,
and every kind of weather through which
You give sustenance to Your creatures.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Sister Water,
which is very useful and humble and precious and chaste.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Brother Fire,
through whom you light the night and he is beautiful
and playful and robust and strong.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Sister Mother Earth,
who sustains us and governs us and who produces
varied fruits with coloured flowers and herbs.

Praised be You, my Lord,
through those who give pardon for Your love,
and bear infirmity and tribulation.

Blessed are those who endure in peace
for by You, Most High, they shall be crowned.

Praised be You, my Lord,
through our Sister Bodily Death,
from whom no living man can escape.

Woe to those who die in mortal sin.
Blessed are those who will
find Your most holy will,
for the second death shall do them no harm.

Praise and bless my Lord,
and give Him thanks
and serve Him with great humility.
Has no relation to the worship of pagan deities. No incense bowl offered to said representation of "mother sun".
 

Deacon Lance

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Syncretism. Just change Pachamama to Zeus and still see if it passes the smell test. The gods of the gentiles (demons) should be utterly rejected.
Mother Earth and Zeus aren’t interchangeable. The religion of the Native Americans was very much a preparation for them to receive Christianity.
Has no relation to the worship of pagan deities. No incense bowl offered to said representation of "mother sun".
Incense is used to show reverence. The point being missed is Christianized Native people still show reverence to Mother Earth, Brother Sun, etc. realizing they aren’t gods. If bowing and using incense means one is worshiping then Catholics and Orthodox are the idol worshippers some Protestants accuse us of being.
 
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Mother Earth and Zeus aren’t interchangeable. The religion of the Native Americans was very much a preparation for them to receive Christianity.

Incense is used to show reverence. The point being missed is Christianized Native people still show reverence to Mother Earth, Brother Sun, etc. realizing they aren’t gods. If bowing and using incense means one is worshiping then Catholics and Orthodox are the idol worshippers some Protestants accuse us of being.
There is not one "native American religion". There are many different religions native to America. Pantheism, animism, and in Central and South America, polytheism of a most demonic sort. The sort of thing leading to Christ in some native religions was the idea of one great Spirit who was the creator, and likewise Aristotle and Plato's imperfect vision of the one God.
This is something distinct from idolatry.
An statue representing the embodied spirit of earth and fertility is most definitely an idol comparable to one of the Greek deities and not a seed of the Logos pointing to one God.

We do not offer incense to creatures. We cense the people and the icons to show that they are icons of God, thus honoring His image, but we offer incense directly to God. We do not offer
sacrificial bowls of incense to the saints. Just as bowing or hymning, the use of incense in itself is not worship per se, but whether it is used in the intent of δουλειά or λατρεια. If in reverential respect, it is the former. If in the form of sacrifice or offering or service, it is the latter. This is seen in scripture when "burning incense in the high places" or "sacrificed and burnt incense to the idols" is a connected idea in the act of idolatry even though incense isn't ontologically adoration. We do not offer bowls of incense to created things, let alone a statue representing a pagan deity previously invoked as pachamama.
 
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This situation is exactly the same as the Israelites and Ba'al. Some of the double-minded Israelites affirmed the reality of the supreme creator God YHWH but also worshipped and sacrificed to the nature god of the storm and rain Ba'al as the personification of the weather to reverence it in hopes of getting material blessings (an end to drought for instance). It does not matter if one affirms the existence of a higher deity - any offering of λατρεια other than to the one God is forbidden, especially when we know that this godess statue was worshipped in a polytheistic pantheon.
 

Deacon Lance

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But you are deciding it is latria rather than dulia when the people involved are saying it is dulia.
 
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We have two mechanisms to differentiate between latria and dulia:
1. To whom is the honor being given, and
2. To what mode is the honor given?

To the first point, what is being given honor is not God and His creation that He shares His glory with (the saints or His providential acts). What is being honored is a statue of a relic of polytheistic worship. The pachamama, despite the innocuous sounding translation of "mother earth" as if it was a simple nature symbol, was adored and worshipped by the Incas by sacrifice. This is the same as if Christians took a statue of Ba'al, censed it, and then claimed it wasn't latria simply because they deny it has divine attributes. It deserves no veneration because it is an idol, and thus even to treat it with dulia is to partake in the table of demons and create a situation of idolatry. Compare to somethint like a vision of a demon pretending to be a saint and a monk venerating the apparition. It is a temptation to idolatry through a lack of discernment.

For two, the mode of worship denotes idolatry. We do not offer bowls of incense to the saints nor do we carve naked figures of earth deities. The mode of this worship is unlawful and derived from pagan and not Christian rituals. Thus, at the least it is strange incense in the appearance of idolatry.

This coincides with what your Church used to teach via Aquinas. Summae Second Part Q. 12. Apostasy is denoted by external act alone and not intent.
 
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Further commenting on the above principle given by Thomas Aquinas, it is something that is Catholic and Orthodox and not a medieval legalism. It's why even Christians who pretended to go along with pagan rituals during the persecutions - or even bribing to get certificates falsely claiming they worshipped idols to get a pardon - were considered apostates. Such as it is, the appearance of offering a sacrifice of incense and prayer to the pachamama demon is sufficient for apostasy (as is Pope John Paul II kissing the Quran, in veneration of Islam's false deity - Aquinas himself gave the example of venerating Mohammed's tomb as externally sufficient for apostasy).
 

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You stated their are many tribes and many faiths among Native Americans saying they can’t be lumped together and then proceed to lump them together. The Pachamama of the Incas has snakes for hands and other features which make it clear the carvings at the Vatican are not that. The tribes at the Synod were Amazonian not Incan. So no that accusation fails.
 

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Are all statues/ statuettes idols? No matter if they are wood, marble, clothed, naked, depict imaginary or real persons?
Was this thing you all speak of placed upon an altar? Was it present during prayers? How was it handled?
 
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Pope Francis said it was a pachamama. I take him at his word. It's a representation of a naked nature goddess.

@Stinky
No. A statue of our Lord or the saints is not an idol. Neither are statues of men or symbols that are not worshipped. What is idolatry is a figure of a nature deity and then offering sacrifices to it.

It was placed at St. Peters during mass. Outside of liturgy, the pope and some other bishops prayed in front of it and offered bowls of incense to it.
 

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The Diocese of San Bernardino posted this "Synod Mass" to their youtube page a few months ago:


The video is hard to watch, because it is so boring, but feel free to skip around and watch different parts of it.
 
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The Diocese of San Bernardino posted this "Synod Mass" to their youtube page a few months ago:


The video is hard to watch, because it is so boring, but feel free to skip around and watch different parts of it.
Do you have any time stamps?

You are correct, that is the name he gave to the statue.
I think it's ironic in the attempt to defend the actions of the Vatican, the ultramontanes and liberal Catholics have to claim Francis himself got it wrong when he said it was a pachamama.

They accuse us Orthodox and the remaining traditional Catholics of not taking the intent of those giving sacrifices of incense to a devil into consideration, even when the pope himself stated the intent was indeed veneration of the pagan deity pachamama.
 

Deacon Lance

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“Representatives of the indigenous nations brought some symbols from their culture. Among them, the statues that you have seen in the news of a woman with a baby in her womb, a canoe, and fishing nets. The symbols reminded them of their people and of the vulnerable situation in the Amazon. The statue of a woman with indigenous features, with the baby in her womb is how they represented the fertility of the Amazon and the vulnerability of all the Amazonian nations. This statue is not an idol, it does not exist in the Amazon as a goddess. It was a representation, a symbol, made specially for this synod.

Catholics coming from the Amazon did not, and do not, worship them. In the results of the synod you will not find anything that refers to a worship of what was called “idols.” But because Catholics share the land and are evangelizing these areas, the synod is calling to the Church there for an integral conversion: A pastoral, cultural, ecological, and synodal conversion.”

 

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“Representatives of the indigenous nations brought some symbols from their culture. Among them, the statues that you have seen in the news of a woman with a baby in her womb, a canoe, and fishing nets. The symbols reminded them of their people and of the vulnerable situation in the Amazon. The statue of a woman with indigenous features, with the baby in her womb is how they represented the fertility of the Amazon and the vulnerability of all the Amazonian nations. This statue is not an idol, it does not exist in the Amazon as a goddess. It was a representation, a symbol, made specially for this synod.

Catholics coming from the Amazon did not, and do not, worship them. In the results of the synod you will not find anything that refers to a worship of what was called “idols.” But because Catholics share the land and are evangelizing these areas, the synod is calling to the Church there for an integral conversion: A pastoral, cultural, ecological, and synodal conversion.”

It's really funny to see how all of RC online apologetics in the current year - whether "Trad" or "liberal" or even "Eastern Catholic" - is about coming up with angles on why this here is okay and somehow not utter apostasy and a rupture with 2,000 years of church tradition:

 

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“Representatives of the indigenous nations brought some symbols from their culture. Among them, the statues that you have seen in the news of a woman with a baby in her womb, a canoe, and fishing nets. The symbols reminded them of their people and of the vulnerable situation in the Amazon. The statue of a woman with indigenous features, with the baby in her womb is how they represented the fertility of the Amazon and the vulnerability of all the Amazonian nations. This statue is not an idol, it does not exist in the Amazon as a goddess. It was a representation, a symbol, made specially for this synod.

Catholics coming from the Amazon did not, and do not, worship them. In the results of the synod you will not find anything that refers to a worship of what was called “idols.” But because Catholics share the land and are evangelizing these areas, the synod is calling to the Church there for an integral conversion: A pastoral, cultural, ecological, and synodal conversion.”

Sorry Fr. Deacon Lance, no amount of strawmanning your opponents as a bunch of "irrational rad trads" changes the fact that

1. The Amazon Synod pamphlets had explicit prayers to Pachamama
Page 17
2. During a Q&A with the Bishops of the Amazon Synod, Papal apologist Austen Ivereigh explicitly asked one of the Archbishops if Pachamama was "Our Lady of the Amazon", and the Archbishop responded said "No...it's a symbol of life, fertility, and motherhood"
3. Pope Francis himself identified the idol as "Pachamama" himself.



All of this is ignoring, by the way, the very obvious New Age influence of "Gaia" worship. In those groups, "Pachamama" is one of the well-known "manifestations" of Gaia, and is the go-to idol for white hippies who want a Native American version of Gaia.

It's also ignoring the fact that tribes of the Amazon don't actually worship Pachamama, as she was an Andean goddess, not an Amazonian goddess.
 
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Deacon Lance

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It's really funny to see how all of RC online apologetics in the current year - whether "Trad" or "liberal" or even "Eastern Catholic" - is about coming up with angles on why this here is okay and somehow not utter apostasy and a rupture with 2,000 years of church tradition:

I didn’t say it was ok. It was a bad idea, if for no other reason the scandal it caused.
 

Deacon Lance

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It's also ignoring the fact that tribes of the Amazon don't actually worship Pachamama, as she was an Andean goddess, not an Amazonian goddess.
Well that is the point isn’t it? Pseudo-trads are claiming it is the Incan goddess which clearly it is not. These were Amazonians. It was a symbol of Mother Earth. Was it a good idea to use symbols of Mother Earth? No. I wouldn’t have done it. But I wouldn’t kiss the Koran either.
 
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