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Vatican is to rehabilitate "Liberation Theology"

Santagranddad

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Today's The Times reports that the Vatican's L'Osservatore Romano has devoted it's centre pages to a rehabilitation of so-called Liberation Theology in an apparent reversal reportedly by the current Pontiff from the line followed by his immediate predecessors.

The only exponents I have met of this bizarre phenomena were Chileans and the gulf I often experience in relation to Roman Catholic's was exceeded greatly. They regarded the Orthodox as ossified, superstitious in relation to its' worship and icons, and irrelevant. I in turn felt their so-called theology was more a political philosophy.

If the reports are accurate then the yawning gap between us looks set to get wider.
 

Shanghaiski

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Santagranddad said:
Today's The Times reports that the Vatican's L'Osservatore Romano has devoted it's centre pages to a rehabilitation of so-called Liberation Theology in an apparent reversal reportedly by the current Pontiff from the line followed by his immediate predecessors.

The only exponents I have met of this bizarre phenomena were Chileans and the gulf I often experience in relation to Roman Catholic's was exceeded greatly. They regarded the Orthodox as ossified, superstitious in relation to its' worship and icons, and irrelevant. I in turn felt their so-called theology was more a political philosophy.

If the reports are accurate then the yawning gap between us looks set to get wider.
Weird that they should see the Orthodox that way. It sort of better illustrates a widening gap in their own communion, that they think those Roman Catholics who venerate icons need to get with the modernist program and trade the cross for a tree branch, and frescoed walls for plain white--maybe with some mirrors, all the better to contemplate how great man is and celebrate how irrelevant God is to their lives.
 

dzheremi

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Gross. I thought this stuff was left behind in the 1980s outside of some select locations in Latin America (like prisons in Colombia and whatnot). I very rarely get to type, think, or say this particular sentence, but I greatly prefer the thinking of Pope John Paul II. He is recorded to have told priests in Sandinista-era El Salvador (after having been drowned out mid-mass by cries of left-wing political agitation by the local priests when visiting that country in the early 1980s) that they must regularize themselves within the church -- they could serve Jesus Christ or they could serve the left-wing populist regime, but they could not do both. This good lesson is apparently lost on the current leadership of the Vatican. Very sad and disturbing.
 

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The Times articles is blocked to non subscribers so I can't really comment. But considering the anti Roman bias of the News Corp. I would have to take its lead paragraph with a considerable grain of salt. This interview with the Pope's New Secretary of State appeared today:

"Archbishop Pietro Parolin, the newly appointed secretary of state for the Vatican, recently extolled the importance of education as the Church’s response to poverty and corruption throughout the world. He also rejected liberation theology and Marxist enthusiasm for class struggle.

In what is believed to be his final interview before his recent appointment by Pope Francis, Archbishop Parolin told an interviewer from Terre d’America (as translated by NCR):

“The [C]hurch must not assume Marxist categories, or class struggle. One of the points among the different problems that arose [with the Theology of Liberation] was the use of Marxist categories and the idea of class struggle that was proclaimed. The [C]hurch always proposes, as the first step, the education of persons in the idea of solidarity, a solidarity that allows the problems of society to be overcome both personally and structurally. On the subject of poverty, the [C]hurch has an enormous patrimony in its social doctrine"  http://www.aleteia.org/en/religion/news/new-vatican-secretary-of-state-emphasizes-education-as-fundamental-arena-for-church-3825001

More to come, I suppose...
 

augustin717

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dzheremi said:
Gross. I thought this stuff was left behind in the 1980s outside of some select locations in Latin America (like prisons in Colombia and whatnot). I very rarely get to type, think, or say this particular sentence, but I greatly prefer the thinking of Pope John Paul II. He is recorded to have told priests in Sandinista-era El Salvador (after having been drowned out mid-mass by cries of left-wing political agitation by the local priests when visiting that country in the early 1980s) that they must regularize themselves within the church -- they could serve Jesus Christ or they could serve the left-wing populist regime, but they could not do both. This good lesson is apparently lost on the current leadership of the Vatican. Very sad and disturbing.
Exactly. Because the Latin American clergy should only stay on the same side as the tiny local elite beholden to the US interests.
 

ialmisry

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augustin717 said:
dzheremi said:
Gross. I thought this stuff was left behind in the 1980s outside of some select locations in Latin America (like prisons in Colombia and whatnot). I very rarely get to type, think, or say this particular sentence, but I greatly prefer the thinking of Pope John Paul II. He is recorded to have told priests in Sandinista-era El Salvador (after having been drowned out mid-mass by cries of left-wing political agitation by the local priests when visiting that country in the early 1980s) that they must regularize themselves within the church -- they could serve Jesus Christ or they could serve the left-wing populist regime, but they could not do both. This good lesson is apparently lost on the current leadership of the Vatican. Very sad and disturbing.
Exactly. Because the Latin American clergy should only stay on the same side as the tiny local elite beholden to the US interests.
what did they do before 1776-and you and that tiny Cuban elite?
 

dzheremi

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augustin717 said:
dzheremi said:
Gross. I thought this stuff was left behind in the 1980s outside of some select locations in Latin America (like prisons in Colombia and whatnot). I very rarely get to type, think, or say this particular sentence, but I greatly prefer the thinking of Pope John Paul II. He is recorded to have told priests in Sandinista-era El Salvador (after having been drowned out mid-mass by cries of left-wing political agitation by the local priests when visiting that country in the early 1980s) that they must regularize themselves within the church -- they could serve Jesus Christ or they could serve the left-wing populist regime, but they could not do both. This good lesson is apparently lost on the current leadership of the Vatican. Very sad and disturbing.
Exactly. Because the Latin American clergy should only stay on the same side as the tiny local elite beholden to the US interests.
What a nonsensical response. Thank you for proving Pope John Paul II's point that some things out to be above the Marxist narrative.

What I saw in Mexico as a child is far more valuable than any of your silliness. The local priest took me and a few others out for a drive around the city (Jaurez; this was in the years before it became infamous for its many, many murders), focusing first on the rich houses (mostly owned by drug dealers and corrupt politicians), and then at the almost unbelievably huge city dump. There were people living in (on top of) the dump, and they would run cables from their cardboard/paper/plastic "houses" directly to the city power lines via telephone poles that ran alongside the border of the dump. The priest said that about once a week the police would come by, take the cables down, harass the people living in the dump for stealing the city's electricity, then drive off. Once night fell, the people would come out and reattach cables to the power lines, beginning the cycle all over again. The police apparently exerted pressure on the priest to help them catch and discipline the power-thieves, but the priest never did. At the same time, neither did he organize the dump-dwelling people to overthrow the local authorities who enforced the system that led these people to live in the dump in the first place. Instead, he visited them a few times a month, encouraged them to bring their children to the medical clinic he ran at the orphanage he oversaw, heard their confessions, exhorted them to come to Mass, etc. It's almost like he was a priest, and not a political leader. Go figure...in the face of extreme poverty and injustice, you don't have to be a Marxist revolutionary to make a difference in people's lives... ::)
 

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dzheremi said:
augustin717 said:
dzheremi said:
Gross. I thought this stuff was left behind in the 1980s outside of some select locations in Latin America (like prisons in Colombia and whatnot). I very rarely get to type, think, or say this particular sentence, but I greatly prefer the thinking of Pope John Paul II. He is recorded to have told priests in Sandinista-era El Salvador (after having been drowned out mid-mass by cries of left-wing political agitation by the local priests when visiting that country in the early 1980s) that they must regularize themselves within the church -- they could serve Jesus Christ or they could serve the left-wing populist regime, but they could not do both. This good lesson is apparently lost on the current leadership of the Vatican. Very sad and disturbing.
Exactly. Because the Latin American clergy should only stay on the same side as the tiny local elite beholden to the US interests.
What a nonsensical response. Thank you for proving Pope John Paul II's point that some things out to be above the Marxist narrative.

What I saw in Mexico as a child is far more valuable than any of your silliness. The local priest took me and a few others out for a drive around the city (Jaurez; this was in the years before it became infamous for its many, many murders), focusing first on the rich houses (mostly owned by drug dealers and corrupt politicians), and then at the almost unbelievably huge city dump. There were people living in (on top of) the dump, and they would run cables from their cardboard/paper/plastic "houses" directly to the city power lines via telephone poles that ran alongside the border of the dump. The priest said that about once a week the police would come by, take the cables down, harass the people living in the dump for stealing the city's electricity, then drive off. Once night fell, the people would come out and reattach cables to the power lines, beginning the cycle all over again. The police apparently exerted pressure on the priest to help them catch and discipline the power-thieves, but the priest never did. At the same time, neither did he organize the dump-dwelling people to overthrow the local authorities who enforced the system that led these people to live in the dump in the first place. Instead, he visited them a few times a month, encouraged them to bring their children to the medical clinic he ran at the orphanage he oversaw, heard their confessions, exhorted them to come to Mass, etc. It's almost like he was a priest, and not a political leader. Go figure...in the face of extreme poverty and injustice, you don't have to be a Marxist revolutionary to make a difference in people's lives... ::)
but wait!

he was not rendering unto Caesar what was Caesars!!!
 

Fabio Leite

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There is nothing to Liberation Theology but trying to manipulate the Roman Church into becoming yet another tool of communism. If anyone in the Vatican is entertaining the idea of trying to revert its discourse "for the poor" into a Christian thing, they're gonna have a bad time. According to its very founders Communism, that greatest genocidical killer of Christians, is the very heart of Liberation Theologian.

"(Leonardo Boff) became one of the best known (along with Gustavo Gutiérrez) of the early Liberation theologians. He was present in the first reflections that sought to articulate indignation against misery and marginalization with promissory discourse of the faith, leading to Liberation theology. " - Wikipedia

The ex-friar Boff gave the following declaration in an article for the newspaper Jornal do Brasil, April 6th, 1980:

"What we propose is not theology inside Marxism, but Marxism (historical materialism) inside theology".

And more: "The method of the Liberation Theology...is the dialectic method." (Leonardo e Clodovis Boff, Teologia da Libertação no Debate Atual, Vozes, Petrópolis, p. 22).

"Liberation theology starts up from this kind of interpretation of reality: social, radical and dialectic criticism, structuralist." (L. e Clodovis Boff, Da Libertação, Vozes, Petrópolis, 4a edição , p,17).

Boff explains the consequences of all this: "In Liberation Theory, the fundamental issue is not theology, but liberation" (L. Boff e Clodovis Boff , Teologia da Libertação no Debate Atual, Vozes, Petrópolis, 1985, p.17).

This pseudotheology proposes liberation from what?

"When I speak of liberation I positevely understand this: to end the system of injustice that is capitalism. It is to liberate oneself from capitalism to create in its place a new society, let's say, a socialist society." (Leonardo e Clodovis Boff, Da Libertação, Vozes, Petrópolis, 4a edição , p, 70).

And more: "It is necessary to say clearly and boldly: liberation is the emancipation of the socially oppressed. It is positevely for us to overcome the capitalist system in direction of a new society of the socialist kind" (L e C. Boff, Da Libertação, p. 113).

"If I so express myself it is because, for us, today, the Kingdom of God is positively socialism" (L. Boff e Cl. Boff. Da Libertação, p. 96).

"The therapy presented by this radical critical conscience is not the reform of the (capitalist) system; this would be to treat the symptom without noticing the source producing the disease; we propose a new way of organizing all society over new different fundaments; no more over having capital on the hands of few, but from the work of all, with the participation of all in the means of production and in the means of power; we speak of liberation" (L e Cl. Boff, Da Libertação, pp.16-17.)"

http://www.montfort.org.br/index.php?secao=cartas&subsecao=politica&artigo=20040729135508&lang=bra
 

Fabio Leite

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Besides, Liberation Theory never stopped being a major thing in Latin America. It was the Liberation Theology's "ecclesiatical communities of bases" that articulated and created support for PT, the Workers' Party, currently in government in Brazil. The "red priests" were a major force in influencing people in rural areas and in poor urban zones.

Being admonished by John Paull II, they simply ceased from manifesting in public but continued their demonic service. They even had some archbishops with them.

In fact, since there is a papal bull providing automatic excommunication to anyone who even provide support to communism, none of those are Roman Catholics, much less real clergy. I really hope RCs don't get a pope who supports communism through supporting liberation theology, because they would have a major theological and eclesiological problem in their hands, that of a presiding excomunicated pope.
 

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I'm not sure what to make of any of this. According to an Italian source:

"Archbishop Gerhard Müller, the German prelate who leads the Vatican doctrinal congregation,is now planning to appear with Gutiérrez in northern Italy on Sunday where the two will officially present a book they have co-authored together. The book, named On the side of the poor: Liberation theology, theology of the church, is a new Italian edition of a book the two co-authored in German in 2004. "The ecclesial and theological movement of Latin America, known as 'liberation theology' and which after Vatican II found a worldwide echo, is to be numbered, in my judgment, among the most significant currents of Catholic theology of the 20th century," Müller states among the book's first pages, according to a preview provided by Magister Thursday.

Contrast that with Ratzinger's (former Pope Benedict) assertion in a 1984 Vatican "instruction" that liberation theologians "accept a series of positions which are incompatible with the Christian vision of humanity." "

http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/key-vatican-bishop-signals-detente-disputed-theology

???

I'm confused and I'm not RCC. However can a serious Roman or Eastern Catholic take the Magesterium seriously these days when there is no consistent message? We Orthodox may not always sing in tune, but we at least use the same sheet music.

To my Catholic friends, especially the easterners, remember that our door is open, come home.
 

Fabio Leite

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podkarpatska said:
"Archbishop Gerhard Müller, the German prelate who leads the Vatican doctrinal congregation,is now planning to appear with Gutiérrez in northern Italy on Sunday where the two will officially present a book they have co-authored together. The book, named On the side of the poor: Liberation theology, theology of the church, is a new Italian edition of a book the two co-authored in German in 2004. "The ecclesial and theological movement of Latin America, known as 'liberation theology' and which after Vatican II found a worldwide echo, is to be numbered, in my judgment, among the most significant currents of Catholic theology of the 20th century," Müller states among the book's first pages, according to a preview provided by Magister Thursday.
The Decree against Communism is a 1949 Catholic Church document (by Pope Pius XII) which excommunicates all Catholics collaborating in communist organizations. The document resulted in one of the largest formal excommunications in the history of the Catholic Church (it could include more than several million Catholics).
(...)
On July 15, 1948, L’Osservatore Romano published a decree about communism, which excommunicated those who propagate "the materialistic and anti-Christian teachings of communism"
(...)
The Sanctum Officium continued to issue condemnations:
Membership in communist parties, July 1, 1949
Excommunication of Bishop Dechet, February 18, 1950
Membership in communist youth organizations, September 28, 1950
Usurpation of Church functions by the State, June 29, 1950
Illegitimate state ordered ordinations of bishops, April 9, 1951
Publications favouring totalitarian Communism, June 28 and July 22, 1955
The decree was confirmed in 1962 by Pope John XXIII when it was announced that Fidel Castro would be excommunicated for embracing Communism and persecuting members of the Catholic Church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decree_against_Communism
Probably Archbishop Müller is no longer a Roman Catholic according to these decrees.
 

Fabio Leite

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In the topic of communism, the Roman Church has been unambiguous:


DIVINI REDEMPTORIS
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI ON ATHEISTIC COMMUNISM TO THE PATRIARCHS, PRIMATES, ARCHBISHOPS, BISHOPS, AND OTHER ORDINARIES IN PEACE AND COMMUNION WITH THE APOSTOLIC SEE.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19031937_divini-redemptoris_en.html

Decretum Contra Communismum
Papa Pio XII

Q. 1 Utrum licitum sit, partibus communistarum nomen dare vel eisdem favorem praestare.

R. Negative: Communismum enim est materialisticus et antichristianus; communistarum autem duces, etsi verbis quandoque profitentur se religionem non oppugnare, se tamen, sive doctrina sive actione, Deo veraeque religioni et Ecclesia Christi sere infensos esse ostendunt.

Q. 2 Utrum licitum sit edere, propagare vel legere libros, periodica, diaria vel folia, qual doctrine vel actioni communistarum patrocinantur, vel in eis scribere.

R. Negative: Prohibentur enim ipso iure

Q. 3 Utrum Christifideles, qui actus, de quibus in n.1 et 2, scienter et libere posuerint, ad sacramenta admitti possint.

R. Negative, secundum ordinaria principia de sacramentis denegandis iis, Qui non sunt dispositi

Q. 4 Utrum Christifideles, Qui communistarum doctrinam materialisticam et anti Christianam profitentur, et in primis, Qui eam defendunt vel propagant, ipso facto, tamquan apostatae a fide catholica, incurrant in excommunicationem speciali modo Sedi Apostolicae reservatam.

R. Affirmative
http://www.montfort.org.br/old/index.php?secao=documentos&subsecao=decretos&artigo=anticomunismo&lang=bra
PIUS IX (1846-1878):
“Overthrow [of] the entire order of human affairs”
“You are aware indeed, that the goal of this most iniquitous plot is to drive people to overthrow the entire order of human affairs and to draw them over to the wicked theories of this Socialism and Communism, by confusing them with perverted teachings.” (Encyclical Nostis et Nobiscum, December 8, 1849)

LEO XIII (1878-1903):
Hideous monster
“...communism, socialism, nihilism, hideous deformities of the civil society of men and almost its ruin.” (Encyclical Diuturnum, June 29, 1881)

Ruin of all institutions
“... For, the fear of God and reverence for divine laws being taken away, the authority of rulers despised, sedition permitted and approved, and the popular passions urged on to lawlessness, with no restraint save that of punishment, a change and overthrow of all things will necessarily follow. Yea, this change and overthrow is deliberately planned and put forward by many associations of communists and socialists” (Encyclical Humanum Genus, April 20, 1884, n. 27).

A sect “that threatens civil society with destruction”

Leo XIII (1877-1903): Socialists assail the right of property sanctioned by natural law.
“…We speak of that sect of men who, under various and almost barbarous names, are called socialists, communists, or nihilists, and who, spread over all the world, and bound together by the closest ties in a wicked confederacy, no longer seek the shelter of secret meetings, but, openly and boldly marching forth in the light of day, strive to bring to a head what they have long been planning - the overthrow of all civil society whatsoever. Surely, these are they who, as the sacred Scriptures testify, ‘Defile the flesh, despise dominion and blaspheme majesty.’ (Jud. 8 ).” (Encyclical Quod Apostolici Muneris, December 28, 1878, n. 1)

Socialists debase the natural union of man and woman and assail the right of property
“They [socialists, communists, or nihilists] debase the natural union of man and woman, which is held sacred even among barbarous peoples; and its bond, by which the family is chiefly held together, they weaken, or even deliver up to lust. Lured, in fine, by the greed of present goods, which is ‘the root of all evils, which some coveting have erred from the faith’ (1 Tim. 6:10.3), they assail the right of property sanctioned by natural law; and by a scheme of horrible wickedness, while they seem desirous of caring for the needs and satisfying the desires of all men, they strive to seize and hold in common whatever has been acquired either by title of lawful inheritance, or by labor of brain and hands, or by thrift in one's mode of life.” (Encyclical Quod Apostolici Muneris, December 28, 1878, n. 1)

Destructive sect
“...socialists and members of other seditious societies, who labor unceasingly to destroy the State even to its foundations.” (Encyclical Libertas Praestantissimum, June 20, 1888)

Enemy of society and of Religion
“...there is need for a union of brave minds with all the resources they can command. The harvest of misery is before our eyes, and the dreadful projects of the most disastrous national upheavals are threatening us from the growing power of the socialistic movement. They have insidiously worked their way into the very heart of the community, and in the darkness of their secret gatherings, and in the open light of day, in their writings and their harangues, they are urging the masses onward to sedition; they fling aside religious discipline; they scorn duties; they clamor only for rights; they are working incessantly on the multitudes of the needy which daily grow greater, and which, because of their poverty are easily deluded and led into error. It is equally the concern of the State and of religion, and all good men

Saint Pius X (1903-1914)
should deem it a sacred duty to preserve and guard both in the honor which is their due.” (Encyclical Graves de Communi Re, January 18, 1901, n. 21)

SAINT PIUS X (1903-1914):
The dream of re-shaping society will bring socialism
“But stranger still, alarming and saddening at the same time, are the audacity and frivolity of men who call themselves Catholics and dream of re-shaping society under such conditions, and of establishing on earth, over and beyond the pale of the Catholic Church, ‘the reign of love and justice’ ... What are they going to produce? ... A mere verbal and chimerical construction in which we shall see, glowing in a jumble, and in seductive confusion, the words Liberty, Justice, Fraternity, Love, Equality, and human exultation, all resting upon an ill-understood human dignity. It will be a tumultuous agitation, sterile for the end proposed, but which will benefit the less Utopian exploiters of the people. Yes, we can truly say that the Sillon, its eyes fixed on a chimera, brings Socialism in its train.” (Apostolic Letter Notre Charge Apostolique ["Our Apostolic Mandate"] to the French Bishops, August 25, 1910, condemning the movement Le Sillon)



Benedict XVBENEDICT XV (1914-1922):
The condemnation of socialism should never be forgotten
“It is not our intention here to repeat the arguments which clearly expose the errors of Socialism and of similar doctrines. Our predecessor, Leo XIII, most wisely did so in truly memorable Encyclicals; and you, Venerable Brethren, will take the greatest care that those grave precepts are never forgotten, but that whenever circumstances call for it, they should be clearly expounded and inculcated in Catholic associations and congresses, in sermons and in the Catholic press.” (Encyclical Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum, November 1, 1914, n. 13)
 

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PIUS XI (1922-1939):

Pius XI (1922-1939): "No one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist."
Socialism, fundamentally contrary to Christian truth
“... For Socialism, which could then be termed almost a single system and which maintained definite teachings reduced into one body of doctrine, has since then split chiefly into two sections, often opposing each other and even bitterly hostile, without either one however abandoning a position fundamentally contrary to Christian truth that was characteristic of Socialism.” (Encyclical Quadragesimo Anno, May 15, 1931, n. 111)

Socialism cannot be reconciled with Catholic Doctrine
“But what if Socialism has really been so tempered and modified as to the class struggle and private ownership that there is in it no longer anything to be censured on these points? Has it thereby renounced its contradictory nature to the Christian religion? This is the question that holds many minds in suspense. And numerous are the Catholics who, although they clearly understand that Christian principles can never be abandoned or diminished seem to turn their eyes to the Holy See and earnestly beseech Us to decide whether this form of Socialism has so far recovered from false doctrines that it can be accepted without the sacrifice of any Christian principle and in a certain sense be baptized. That We, in keeping with Our fatherly solicitude, may answer their petitions, We make this pronouncement: Whether considered as a doctrine, or an historical fact, or a movement, Socialism, if it remains truly Socialism, even after it has yielded to truth and justice on the points which we have mentioned, cannot be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church because its concept of society itself is utterly foreign to Christian truth.” (Ibid. n. 117)

Catholic Socialism, a contradiction
“(Socialism) is based nevertheless on a theory of human society peculiar to itself and irreconcilable with true Christianity. Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.” (Ibid. n. 120)


Pius XII
PIUS XII (1939-1958):
The Church will fight to the end, in defense of supreme values threatened by socialism
“(The Church undertook) the protection of the individual and the family against a current threatening to bring about a total socialization which in the end would make the specter of the 'Leviathan' become a shocking reality. The Church will fight this battle to the end, for it is a question of supreme values: the dignity of man and the salvation of souls." (“Radio message to the Katholikentag of Vienna,” September 14, 1952 in Discorsi e Radiomessaggi, vol. XIV, p. 314)

The state can not be regarded as being above all
"To consider the State as something ultimate to which everything else should be subordinated and directed, cannot fail to harm the true and lasting prosperity of nations." (Encyclical Summi Pontificatus, October 20, 1939, n. 60)


John XXIII JOHN XXIII (1958-1963):
“No Catholic could subscribe even to moderate socialism”
“Pope Pius XI further emphasized the fundamental opposition between Communism and Christianity, and made it clear that no Catholic could subscribe even to moderate Socialism. The reason is that Socialism is founded on a doctrine of human society which is bounded by time and takes no account of any objective other than that of material well-being. Since, therefore, it proposes a form of social organization which aims solely at production, it places too severe a restraint on human liberty, at the same time flouting the true notion of social authority.” (Encyclical Mater et Magistra, May 15, 1961, n. 34)  

Paul VI

PAUL VI (1963-1978):
Too often Christians tend to idealize socialism
“Too often Christians attracted by socialism tend to idealize it in terms which, apart from anything else, are very general: a will for justice, solidarity and equality. They refuse to recognize the limitations of the historical socialist movements, which remain conditioned by the ideologies from which they originated.” (Apostolic Letter Octogesima Adveniens, May 14, 1971, n. 31)


John Paul II (1978-2005)
JOHN PAUL II (1978-2005):
Socialism: Danger of a “simple and radical solution”
“It may seem surprising that ‘socialism’ appeared at the beginning of the Pope's critique of solutions to the ‘question of the working class’ at a time when ‘socialism’ was not yet in the form of a strong and powerful State, with all the resources which that implies, as was later to happen. However, he correctly judged the danger posed to the masses by the attractive presentation of this simple and radical solution to the ‘question of the working class.’" (Encyclical Centesimus Annus − On the 100th anniversary of Pope Leo XIII's Rerum Novarum, May 1, 1991, n. 12)

Fundamental error of socialism: A mistaken conception of the person
“Continuing our reflections, ... we have to add that the fundamental error of socialism is anthropological in nature. Socialism considers the individual person simply as an element, a molecule within the social organism, so that the good of the individual is completely subordinated to the functioning of the socio-economic mechanism. Socialism likewise maintains that the good of the individual can be realized without reference to his free choice, to the unique and exclusive responsibility which he exercises in the face of good or evil. Man is thus reduced to a series of social relationships, and the concept of the person as the autonomous subject of moral decision disappears, the very subject whose decisions build the social order. From this mistaken conception of the person there arise both a distortion of law, which defines the sphere of the exercise of freedom, and an opposition to private property.” (Ibid, n. 13)

BENEDICT XVI (2005 - present):
“We do not need a State which regulates and controls everything”

Benedict XVI “The State which would provide everything, absorbing everything into itself, would ultimately become a mere bureaucracy incapable of guaranteeing the very thing which the suffering person − every person − needs: namely, loving personal concern. We do not need a State which regulates and controls everything, but a State which, in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, generously acknowledges and supports initiatives arising from the different social forces and combines spontaneity with closeness to those in need. … In the end, the claim that just social structures would make works of charity superfluous masks a materialist conception of man: the mistaken notion that man can live ‘by bread alone’ (Mt 4:4; cf. Dt 8:3) − a conviction that demeans man and ultimately disregards all that is specifically human.” (Encyclical Deus Caritas Est, December 25, 2005, n. 28)
http://www.tfp.org/tfp-home/catholic-perspective/what-the-popes-have-to-say-about-socialism.html
 

Santagranddad

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dzheremi said:
augustin717 said:
dzheremi said:
Gross. I thought this stuff was left behind in the 1980s outside of some select locations in Latin America (like prisons in Colombia and whatnot). I very rarely get to type, think, or say this particular sentence, but I greatly prefer the thinking of Pope John Paul II. He is recorded to have told priests in Sandinista-era El Salvador (after having been drowned out mid-mass by cries of left-wing political agitation by the local priests when visiting that country in the early 1980s) that they must regularize themselves within the church -- they could serve Jesus Christ or they could serve the left-wing populist regime, but they could not do both. This good lesson is apparently lost on the current leadership of the Vatican. Very sad and disturbing.
Exactly. Because the Latin American clergy should only stay on the same side as the tiny local elite beholden to the US interests.
What a nonsensical response. Thank you for proving Pope John Paul II's point that some things out to be above the Marxist narrative.

What I saw in Mexico as a child is far more valuable than any of your silliness. The local priest took me and a few others out for a drive around the city (Jaurez; this was in the years before it became infamous for its many, many murders), focusing first on the rich houses (mostly owned by drug dealers and corrupt politicians), and then at the almost unbelievably huge city dump. There were people living in (on top of) the dump, and they would run cables from their cardboard/paper/plastic "houses" directly to the city power lines via telephone poles that ran alongside the border of the dump. The priest said that about once a week the police would come by, take the cables down, harass the people living in the dump for stealing the city's electricity, then drive off. Once night fell, the people would come out and reattach cables to the power lines, beginning the cycle all over again. The police apparently exerted pressure on the priest to help them catch and discipline the power-thieves, but the priest never did. At the same time, neither did he organize the dump-dwelling people to overthrow the local authorities who enforced the system that led these people to live in the dump in the first place. Instead, he visited them a few times a month, encouraged them to bring their children to the medical clinic he ran at the orphanage he oversaw, heard their confessions, exhorted them to come to Mass, etc. It's almost like he was a priest, and not a political leader. Go figure...in the face of extreme poverty and injustice, you don't have to be a Marxist revolutionary to make a difference in people's lives... ::)

This response and the story of a Latin priest trying to be a conscientious pastor chimes in much more and seeks  to strive to live out the Gospel. Have spent a lot of time with those who feel they may fulfil the Gospel through a politically driven narrative, and been struck how far the model takes us away from anything that fits with the message of the Gospel. Have accompanied them on political demonstrations and nothing I witnessed there appeared to be anything other than political ideology, with Christian window dressing. Indeed too often the 'cause' seemed far, far more important than individuals, families or communities in need. These were simply 'posters' for the campaign to be tossed aside when the campaign moved on. This need not necessarily apply to left wing activists but right wing ones, too.

The Latin priest on the other hand demonstrated sustained love for his neighbour. I salute him and others like him, theirs' is try to minister to sinners in need, not to seek by human means a perfect society. An unachieveable goal and usually delivers simply a totalitarian one instead.
 

podkarpatska

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Santagranddad said:
dzheremi said:
augustin717 said:
dzheremi said:
Gross. I thought this stuff was left behind in the 1980s outside of some select locations in Latin America (like prisons in Colombia and whatnot). I very rarely get to type, think, or say this particular sentence, but I greatly prefer the thinking of Pope John Paul II. He is recorded to have told priests in Sandinista-era El Salvador (after having been drowned out mid-mass by cries of left-wing political agitation by the local priests when visiting that country in the early 1980s) that they must regularize themselves within the church -- they could serve Jesus Christ or they could serve the left-wing populist regime, but they could not do both. This good lesson is apparently lost on the current leadership of the Vatican. Very sad and disturbing.
Exactly. Because the Latin American clergy should only stay on the same side as the tiny local elite beholden to the US interests.
What a nonsensical response. Thank you for proving Pope John Paul II's point that some things out to be above the Marxist narrative.

What I saw in Mexico as a child is far more valuable than any of your silliness. The local priest took me and a few others out for a drive around the city (Jaurez; this was in the years before it became infamous for its many, many murders), focusing first on the rich houses (mostly owned by drug dealers and corrupt politicians), and then at the almost unbelievably huge city dump. There were people living in (on top of) the dump, and they would run cables from their cardboard/paper/plastic "houses" directly to the city power lines via telephone poles that ran alongside the border of the dump. The priest said that about once a week the police would come by, take the cables down, harass the people living in the dump for stealing the city's electricity, then drive off. Once night fell, the people would come out and reattach cables to the power lines, beginning the cycle all over again. The police apparently exerted pressure on the priest to help them catch and discipline the power-thieves, but the priest never did. At the same time, neither did he organize the dump-dwelling people to overthrow the local authorities who enforced the system that led these people to live in the dump in the first place. Instead, he visited them a few times a month, encouraged them to bring their children to the medical clinic he ran at the orphanage he oversaw, heard their confessions, exhorted them to come to Mass, etc. It's almost like he was a priest, and not a political leader. Go figure...in the face of extreme poverty and injustice, you don't have to be a Marxist revolutionary to make a difference in people's lives... ::)

This response and the story of a Latin priest trying to be a conscientious pastor chimes in much more and seeks   to strive to live out the Gospel. Have spent a lot of time with those who feel they may fulfil the Gospel through a politically driven narrative, and been struck how far the model takes us away from anything that fits with the message of the Gospel. Have accompanied them on political demonstrations and nothing I witnessed there appeared to be anything other than political ideology, with Christian window dressing. Indeed too often the 'cause' seemed far, far more important than individuals, families or communities in need. These were simply 'posters' for the campaign to be tossed aside when the campaign moved on. Those need not necessarily apply to left wing activists but right wing ones, too.

The Latin priest on the other hand demonstrated sustained love for his neighbour. I salute him and others like him, theirs' is try to minister to sinners in need, not to seek by human means a perfect society. An unachieveable goal and usually delivers simply a totalitarian one instead.
Amen.
 

Jetavan

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He is the father of liberation theology, condemned for decades and now rehabilitated in the person and life of Pope Francis with whom, according to various sources, Gustavo Gutiérrez met last Tuesday....

Afterwards, Gutierrez spoke informally with some reporters, stating that "the liberation theologians weren't Marxists", although he did acknowledge that there were "committed people who had an ideological base." "The poor themselves must be agents of their liberation," stressed the theologian who wanted to make it clear that neither John Paul II nor Benedict XVI ever condemned his theology, but rather solicited a "contextualization."
....
"With Ratzinger," the father of liberation theology continued, "the dialogue began when he was a cardinal. I've had a positive experience. Then it ended with a letter he sent to my superiors indicating that the dialogue had ended satisfactorily," and he wanted to specify that "moreover it was a dialogue and not a trial."
 
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