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Video of Sarum Mass (2021)

FULK NERA

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Western Rite always poses many questions to me. I understand the Sarum Rite is a liturgy used in England from the Norman Conquest until the Reformation and that its celebration was not extant anywhere in contemporary Western Christendom, having been suppressed or otherwise discontinued. What is its relevance to the community worshipping here, that its minor specific details differentiating it from Latin Rite should be revived after half a millennium? What does revival of Sarum Rite, a fossil form of worship, have to do with Orthodox Christianity?
 
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In my opinion the Latin tridentine liturgy is more suitable for purpose in the Western Rite. WR is for evangelism and keeping organic Western heritage in Orthodoxy and thus an obscure rite from medieval England isn't the best choice.
 

WR-News

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I think Sarum has been revived because the majority of WR are former Anglicans, not former Roman Catholics, so have a preference for something 'English.'

That being said, it's not so different from the Tridentine Rite that it would make it difficult for those wishing to convert under the WR, IMO.
 
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I think Sarum has been revived because the majority of WR are former Anglicans, not former Roman Catholics, so have a preference for something 'English.'

That being said, it's not so different from the Tridentine Rite that it would make it difficult for those wishing to convert under the WR, IMO.
The Anglican-Orthodox service is the liturgy of St. Tikhon.
 
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That's true, but the Tikhon rite is based on the BCP, which was itself largely based on the Sarum Use. I think some people wish to be more traditional.
Fair enough. If it will attract people to practice Orthodoxy with something more fitting with their heritage rather than liturgical archeology then it's good.
 

FULK NERA

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In my opinion the Latin tridentine liturgy is more suitable for purpose in the Western Rite. WR is for evangelism and keeping organic Western heritage in Orthodoxy and thus an obscure rite from medieval England isn't the best choice.
Yes, I think lapidary is a term appropriate to Sarum Rite. But I disagree with the whole project of WR that describes an essential Westernness that it is supposed to address. That’s a notion as extinct as phrenology.
 
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Just from the outside looking in I don't understand the distrust of the Western Rite in Orthodoxy. To be honest if I was ever to become Orthodox I would search out a Western Rite Parish as the Western Rite feels more at home to me culturally. As of now I just hope and see for closer ties between traditional Anglicanism and Orthodoxy.
 
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Just from the outside looking in I don't understand the distrust of the Western Rite in Orthodoxy. To be honest if I was ever to become Orthodox I would search out a Western Rite Parish as the Western Rite feels more at home to me culturally. As of now I just hope and see for closer ties between traditional Anglicanism and Orthodoxy.
My distrust of it is only that it isn't western enough. St. Nicolas Cabasilas in his commentary on the divine liturgy wrote that the Latin rite has a valid ascending epiclesis, yet the current Western rite inserts the Byzantine rite in it as if the Latin form is deficient. I also don't like how some of the Russian Western rite doesn't involve Western holidays like Corpus Christi (which is just a feast to celebrate the Eucharist and the content is not heretical). The Antiochenes do a good job allowing for more of that sort of thing in the Church and letting the rite organicly develop. Not that everything Western then should be allowed, but no need to force the Western rite to be stuck in its early medieval form. The Antiochians do need to root out some of the people bringing in things like the sacred heart devotion, but better do that later than have a dead appendage of a Western rite at the mercy of anti Western rite bishops looking for any excuse to shut it down.

The sarum rite issue is quite minor, as long as it isn't a pet project for liturgical archeologists.

Imo if the Western rite really wants to get serious they need Tridentine rite trained priests to go start missions in Latin America, Italy, and other traditional Western Catholic countries ready for conversion and still strong on Latin heritage. The Anglo Protestant world for the most part has little interest in traditional Western Christian heritage in that sense. Perhaps in some corner of England, but the average American Episcopal or ELCA Lutheran could probably care less if it's Sarum rite or just Latin rite as long as it feels Western, and the American traditional Catholics would want Tridentine anyway.
 

augustin717

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Looks not merely Byzantinized, but Russified.
 

MalpanaGiwargis

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I also don't like how some of the Russian Western rite doesn't involve Western holidays like Corpus Christi (which is just a feast to celebrate the Eucharist and the content is not heretical).
The thinking seems to be that they take the 1054 date for the schism as a rule—before 1054 is OK, after 1054 is out; Corpus Christi is a 13th-century devotion, so it's out by this rule.
 
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The thinking seems to be that they take the 1054 date for the schism as a rule—before 1054 is OK, after 1054 is out; Corpus Christi is a 13th-century devotion, so it's out by this rule.
That rule is arbitrary and is against the whole point of the Western rite. Pre-1054 liturgy doesn't exist.. Not even the Sarum mass in totality is that old. Furthermore the Tridentine rite was remarkably conservative and actually purged a lot of medieval innovations. It could be argued that it may be closer to the pre schism mass than a 1300s or 1400s mass.

If it's not heretical or otherwise harmful, post schism developments should be allowed.
 

WR-News

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IIRC we used to forbid non-Orthodox from even entering the Church. That's kind of weird evangelism.
Times change.

We're not dealing with people who are going to torture us to death for not offering incense to idols - at least not yet - but people from a formerly Christian culture who may have memories of the old traditions.
 

FULK NERA

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Just from the outside looking in I don't understand the distrust of the Western Rite in Orthodoxy. To be honest if I was ever to become Orthodox I would search out a Western Rite Parish as the Western Rite feels more at home to me culturally. As of now I just hope and see for closer ties between traditional Anglicanism and Orthodoxy.
Ecumenical Patriarch Meletios I (Metaxakis) wished for closer ties of all the Greek-run patriarchates he controlled to the Anglicans. To effect this closeness he unilaterally changed the reckoning of liturgical time. The resultant split caused the falling away of a great part of Greek Orthodox people and an alienation between Orthodox who now do not worship according to the same calendar. I don’t see that the closeness to Anglicans has achieved any significant benefit to either confessional community.
 
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Ecumenical Patriarch Meletios I (Metaxakis) wished for closer ties of all the Greek-run patriarchates he controlled to the Anglicans. To effect this closeness he unilaterally changed the reckoning of liturgical time. The resultant split caused the falling away of a great part of Greek Orthodox people and an alienation between Orthodox who now do not worship according to the same calendar. I don’t see that the closeness to Anglicans has achieved any significant benefit to either confessional community.
I don't why the calendar issue hasn't been fixed yet. Both calendars are inherently flawed. The Julian calendar is inaccurate. The New calendar doesn't allow for the Apostles fast and is divisive. I think the first ecumenical council intended for the paschalion to be astronomically accurate.
 

Dominika

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I don't why the calendar issue hasn't been fixed yet. Both calendars are inherently flawed. The Julian calendar is inaccurate. The New calendar doesn't allow for the Apostles fast and is divisive. I think the first ecumenical council intended for the paschalion to be astronomically accurate.
I am in favour of Neo-Julian calendar. It allows for teh Apostles fast if we start it accoridng to the older tradition - i.e earlier. Actually old calendar is divisive and both communites (e.g. issue of the Polish Orthodox Church) but also reigaidn schizoephrenia between religious life and every day, public life. But it's an off topic.
 

FULK NERA

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I don't why the calendar issue hasn't been fixed yet. Both calendars are inherently flawed. The Julian calendar is inaccurate. The New calendar doesn't allow for the Apostles fast and is divisive. I think the first ecumenical council intended for the paschalion to be astronomically accurate.
The Julian Calendar is accurate sidereally but not terrestrially. I understand navigation is still done according to a version of it, because it functions as a reckoning of time that is more accurate in all spheres. If we survive this horrible century and get out into the solar system and beyond, we will reckon time sidereally and the New Calendar will be a relic of Earthbound existence. I can see someday people will call the Gregorian Calendar "Old".
 

WR-News

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Times change.

We're not dealing with people who are going to torture us to death for not offering incense to idols - at least not yet - but people from a formerly Christian culture who may have memories of the old traditions.
I don't understand the angry replies to this post...?
 

Alpo2

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Times change.

We're not dealing with people who are going to torture us to death for not offering incense to idols - at least not yet - but people from a formerly Christian culture who may have memories of the old traditions.
Fair enough. I'm all for WR but still wouldn't say that liturgy is about evangelism since technically speaking it's only for members of the Church. Agree to disagree I guess. 🤷‍♂️
 

Katechon

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I don't why the calendar issue hasn't been fixed yet. Both calendars are inherently flawed. The Julian calendar is inaccurate. The New calendar doesn't allow for the Apostles fast and is divisive. I think the first ecumenical council intended for the paschalion to be astronomically accurate.
The Old Calendar is much cooler tho, so there's that.
 

ICXCNIKA

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I don't see much from the Antiochian WRV. Maybe that is just my perception. What Liturgy do they use?
 

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I have never been to a WR service. Watching the video I am 21 minutes in and I noticed 2 things. First the priest seems to be praying silently for the first 14 minutes and toward the 21 minute mark they tell the catechumens to depart but also specifically pagans and Jews as well. That seemed a little grating to my ears as there might be Jewish visitors. Do they really expect them to leave? Catechumens no longer leave.
 
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