Virgen de Guadalupe (and other appiritions) in WRO

Agabus

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While weathering Tropical Storm Lee last night, our power went out and I was forced to duck around the corner to the dollar store to buy candles. Almost every candle except for some Virgen de Guadalupe week-long intention candles (these, to be exact) was sold, so I bought one and went home. It did its trick and made my apartment smell like roses.

Anyway, as I watched the candle burn, I got to wondering if there was a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe in the WRO. Most WR debates I have seen have centered around things like the Sacred Heart and Corpus Christi, but I haven't heard much discussion about various Marian apparitions (aside from generally suspicious comments about Lourdes and a general acceptance of Our Lady of Walsingham).

Since many WR folks tend to discuss the importance of patrimony, my thoughts turned to what would be my western Orthodox patrimony (since there is not likely to be a WRO rural southern fundamentalist rite any time soon ;)), and it is -- regionally, anyway -- Acadian Catholicism, which has a significant devotion to Our Lady of Prompt Succor.

How does someone in the WR determine what is and isn't acceptable for Orthodox veneration from the western tradition?
 

ialmisry

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Agabus said:
While weathering Tropical Storm Lee last night, our power went out and I was forced to duck around the corner to the dollar store to buy candles. Almost every candle except for some Virgen de Guadalupe week-long intention candles (these, to be exact) was sold, so I bought one and went home. It did its trick and made my apartment smell like roses.

Anyway, as I watched the candle burn, I got to wondering if there was a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe in the WRO. Most WR debates I have seen have centered around things like the Sacred Heart and Corpus Christi, but I haven't heard much discussion about various Marian apparitions (aside from generally suspicious comments about Lourdes and a general acceptance of Our Lady of Walsingham).

Since many WR folks tend to discuss the importance of patrimony, my thoughts turned to what would be my western Orthodox patrimony (since there is not likely to be a WRO rural southern fundamentalist rite any time soon ;)), and it is -- regionally, anyway -- Acadian Catholicism, which has a significant devotion to Our Lady of Prompt Succor.

How does someone in the WR determine what is and isn't acceptable for Orthodox veneration from the western tradition?
I don't know about from a WRO perspective, or official approval, but I've seen the Virgin of Guadalupe in Eastern Orthodox Churches (but IIRC, not in the sanctuary, but in the narthex or such).  As opposed to Lourdes or Fatima, there is nothing unorthodox or heterodox about Guadalupe, except Juan Diego wasn't Orthodox.
 

Alveus Lacuna

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I believe that in the OCA cathedral's nave in Mexico City there is a fresco of this apparition painted in with all of the Orthodox iconography.
 

Michał

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From another thread:
griego catolico said:
This version of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe was painted by a Greek Orthodox monk:


I even have a Russian Orthodox icon catalog that used to sell this icon.


There are several tropars and kondaks written for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Here is an example:

Troparion—Tone 6

The peasant joyfully held open his cloak to contain roses growing out of season, most Holy Mother, and he quickly carried the flowers to his bishop. In just such a way, you joyfully opened yourself to contain the Babe, growing before you had known man. The flowers carried by the peasant formed an image of you on his cloak. The Child carried by you formed you into an image of His grace. Therefore we cry out to you, Rejoice, most holy Mother of God.

Kontakion—Tone 4

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were promised that one would come that would crush the serpent. The serpent fled to the west, into a land of people that did not know God. But the serpent was not hidden from the wrath of God, and the Child that you so lightly carried in your arms was too heavy for the serpent’s skull. Therefore, we cry out to you, pray for us, most holy Theotokos.

Another Kontakion, Tone 8. Special melody: Ti hypermacho:
The precious mantle * of your Protection * which once pious Andrew saw * as you revealed yourself * to him praying * in the Emp’ror’s city * is now seen by all the faithful in the Tilma of Tepeyac * from which falls God’s grace * like a shower of roses from paradise * that will crush the ancient serpent’s head * as we all sing to you: * Rejoice, O Virgin of Guadalupe.
 

Volnutt

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ialmisry said:
Agabus said:
While weathering Tropical Storm Lee last night, our power went out and I was forced to duck around the corner to the dollar store to buy candles. Almost every candle except for some Virgen de Guadalupe week-long intention candles (these, to be exact) was sold, so I bought one and went home. It did its trick and made my apartment smell like roses.

Anyway, as I watched the candle burn, I got to wondering if there was a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe in the WRO. Most WR debates I have seen have centered around things like the Sacred Heart and Corpus Christi, but I haven't heard much discussion about various Marian apparitions (aside from generally suspicious comments about Lourdes and a general acceptance of Our Lady of Walsingham).

Since many WR folks tend to discuss the importance of patrimony, my thoughts turned to what would be my western Orthodox patrimony (since there is not likely to be a WRO rural southern fundamentalist rite any time soon ;)), and it is -- regionally, anyway -- Acadian Catholicism, which has a significant devotion to Our Lady of Prompt Succor.

How does someone in the WR determine what is and isn't acceptable for Orthodox veneration from the western tradition?
I don't know about from a WRO perspective, or official approval, but I've seen the Virgin of Guadalupe in Eastern Orthodox Churches (but IIRC, not in the sanctuary, but in the narthex or such).  As opposed to Lourdes or Fatima, there is nothing unorthodox or heterodox about Guadalupe, except Juan Diego wasn't Orthodox.
Doesn't "She who has vanquished the Serpent" stem from that terrible RC misstranslation of Genesis 3:15?
 

LBK

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I even have a Russian Orthodox icon catalog that used to sell this icon.


There are several tropars and kondaks written for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Here is an example:

Troparion—Tone 6

The peasant joyfully held open his cloak to contain roses growing out of season, most Holy Mother, and he quickly carried the flowers to his bishop. In just such a way, you joyfully opened yourself to contain the Babe, growing before you had known man. The flowers carried by the peasant formed an image of you on his cloak. The Child carried by you formed you into an image of His grace. Therefore we cry out to you, Rejoice, most holy Mother of God.

Kontakion—Tone 4

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were promised that one would come that would crush the serpent. The serpent fled to the west, into a land of people that did not know God. But the serpent was not hidden from the wrath of God, and the Child that you so lightly carried in your arms was too heavy for the serpent’s skull. Therefore, we cry out to you, pray for us, most holy Theotokos.

Another Kontakion, Tone 8. Special melody: Ti hypermacho:
The precious mantle * of your Protection * which once pious Andrew saw * as you revealed yourself * to him praying * in the Emp’ror’s city * is now seen by all the faithful in the Tilma of Tepeyac * from which falls God’s grace * like a shower of roses from paradise * that will crush the ancient serpent’s head * as we all sing to you: * Rejoice, O Virgin of Guadalupe.
There is no feast to this image in any Orthodox calendar I have on hand or have encountered; the troparia and kontakia must be of Eastern Catholic origin.
 
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LBK said:
I even have a Russian Orthodox icon catalog that used to sell this icon.


There are several tropars and kondaks written for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Here is an example:

Troparion—Tone 6

The peasant joyfully held open his cloak to contain roses growing out of season, most Holy Mother, and he quickly carried the flowers to his bishop. In just such a way, you joyfully opened yourself to contain the Babe, growing before you had known man. The flowers carried by the peasant formed an image of you on his cloak. The Child carried by you formed you into an image of His grace. Therefore we cry out to you, Rejoice, most holy Mother of God.

Kontakion—Tone 4

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were promised that one would come that would crush the serpent. The serpent fled to the west, into a land of people that did not know God. But the serpent was not hidden from the wrath of God, and the Child that you so lightly carried in your arms was too heavy for the serpent’s skull. Therefore, we cry out to you, pray for us, most holy Theotokos.

Another Kontakion, Tone 8. Special melody: Ti hypermacho:
The precious mantle * of your Protection * which once pious Andrew saw * as you revealed yourself * to him praying * in the Emp’ror’s city * is now seen by all the faithful in the Tilma of Tepeyac * from which falls God’s grace * like a shower of roses from paradise * that will crush the ancient serpent’s head * as we all sing to you: * Rejoice, O Virgin of Guadalupe.
There is no feast to this image in any Orthodox calendar I have on hand or have encountered; the troparia and kontakia must be of Eastern Catholic origin.
Forgive me, but it seems to me they are also of little poetic quality.
 

Volnutt

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Volnutt said:
ialmisry said:
Agabus said:
While weathering Tropical Storm Lee last night, our power went out and I was forced to duck around the corner to the dollar store to buy candles. Almost every candle except for some Virgen de Guadalupe week-long intention candles (these, to be exact) was sold, so I bought one and went home. It did its trick and made my apartment smell like roses.

Anyway, as I watched the candle burn, I got to wondering if there was a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe in the WRO. Most WR debates I have seen have centered around things like the Sacred Heart and Corpus Christi, but I haven't heard much discussion about various Marian apparitions (aside from generally suspicious comments about Lourdes and a general acceptance of Our Lady of Walsingham).

Since many WR folks tend to discuss the importance of patrimony, my thoughts turned to what would be my western Orthodox patrimony (since there is not likely to be a WRO rural southern fundamentalist rite any time soon ;)), and it is -- regionally, anyway -- Acadian Catholicism, which has a significant devotion to Our Lady of Prompt Succor.

How does someone in the WR determine what is and isn't acceptable for Orthodox veneration from the western tradition?
I don't know about from a WRO perspective, or official approval, but I've seen the Virgin of Guadalupe in Eastern Orthodox Churches (but IIRC, not in the sanctuary, but in the narthex or such).  As opposed to Lourdes or Fatima, there is nothing unorthodox or heterodox about Guadalupe, except Juan Diego wasn't Orthodox.
Doesn't "She who has vanquished the Serpent" stem from that terrible RC misstranslation of Genesis 3:15?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_of_Guadalupe

According to the account of Juan Diego, the Virgin Mary described herself using the Aztec Nahuatl word-name of Coatlaxopeuh (pronounced "quatlachupe") which the Spanish misunderstood as being the word "Guadalupe". In Nahuatl "Coa" meant serpent, "tla" the noun ending which can be interpreted as "the", and "xopeuh" means to crush or to stamp out, translating to mean: the one "who crushes the serpent,"

...

This reflects Catholic theology, in understanding that Mary is the woman described in the twelfth chapter of St. John's Apocalypse.
Yes, it definitely looks like we have an apparition endorsing false doctrine ("I am the Immaculate Conception," anyone?)
 

Deacon Lance

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LBK said:
I even have a Russian Orthodox icon catalog that used to sell this icon.


There are several tropars and kondaks written for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Here is an example:

Troparion—Tone 6

The peasant joyfully held open his cloak to contain roses growing out of season, most Holy Mother, and he quickly carried the flowers to his bishop. In just such a way, you joyfully opened yourself to contain the Babe, growing before you had known man. The flowers carried by the peasant formed an image of you on his cloak. The Child carried by you formed you into an image of His grace. Therefore we cry out to you, Rejoice, most holy Mother of God.

Kontakion—Tone 4

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were promised that one would come that would crush the serpent. The serpent fled to the west, into a land of people that did not know God. But the serpent was not hidden from the wrath of God, and the Child that you so lightly carried in your arms was too heavy for the serpent’s skull. Therefore, we cry out to you, pray for us, most holy Theotokos.

Another Kontakion, Tone 8. Special melody: Ti hypermacho:
The precious mantle * of your Protection * which once pious Andrew saw * as you revealed yourself * to him praying * in the Emp’ror’s city * is now seen by all the faithful in the Tilma of Tepeyac * from which falls God’s grace * like a shower of roses from paradise * that will crush the ancient serpent’s head * as we all sing to you: * Rejoice, O Virgin of Guadalupe.
There is no feast to this image in any Orthodox calendar I have on hand or have encountered; the troparia and kontakia must be of Eastern Catholic origin.
As far as I know my Metropolia is the only Eastern Catholic Church that has officially added the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe to the calendar and composed hymns for it.  The above are not from the Byzantine Catholic Church.

http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/sheetmusic/general/MenaionDecember
 

ialmisry

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Volnutt said:
ialmisry said:
Agabus said:
While weathering Tropical Storm Lee last night, our power went out and I was forced to duck around the corner to the dollar store to buy candles. Almost every candle except for some Virgen de Guadalupe week-long intention candles (these, to be exact) was sold, so I bought one and went home. It did its trick and made my apartment smell like roses.

Anyway, as I watched the candle burn, I got to wondering if there was a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe in the WRO. Most WR debates I have seen have centered around things like the Sacred Heart and Corpus Christi, but I haven't heard much discussion about various Marian apparitions (aside from generally suspicious comments about Lourdes and a general acceptance of Our Lady of Walsingham).

Since many WR folks tend to discuss the importance of patrimony, my thoughts turned to what would be my western Orthodox patrimony (since there is not likely to be a WRO rural southern fundamentalist rite any time soon ;)), and it is -- regionally, anyway -- Acadian Catholicism, which has a significant devotion to Our Lady of Prompt Succor.

How does someone in the WR determine what is and isn't acceptable for Orthodox veneration from the western tradition?
I don't know about from a WRO perspective, or official approval, but I've seen the Virgin of Guadalupe in Eastern Orthodox Churches (but IIRC, not in the sanctuary, but in the narthex or such).  As opposed to Lourdes or Fatima, there is nothing unorthodox or heterodox about Guadalupe, except Juan Diego wasn't Orthodox.
Doesn't "She who has vanquished the Serpent" stem from that terrible RC misstranslation of Genesis 3:15?
It does, but I'm not sure if this wasn't added by the Vatican's devout, just like the image of the moon etc. on the tilme are additions added on (perhaps to make it into the woman of Revelation):they are not part of the original image.
 

LBK

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The above are not from the Byzantine Catholic Church.
I can assure you they are not part of Orthodox hymnography, either.
 

Volnutt

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ialmisry said:
Volnutt said:
ialmisry said:
Agabus said:
While weathering Tropical Storm Lee last night, our power went out and I was forced to duck around the corner to the dollar store to buy candles. Almost every candle except for some Virgen de Guadalupe week-long intention candles (these, to be exact) was sold, so I bought one and went home. It did its trick and made my apartment smell like roses.

Anyway, as I watched the candle burn, I got to wondering if there was a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe in the WRO. Most WR debates I have seen have centered around things like the Sacred Heart and Corpus Christi, but I haven't heard much discussion about various Marian apparitions (aside from generally suspicious comments about Lourdes and a general acceptance of Our Lady of Walsingham).

Since many WR folks tend to discuss the importance of patrimony, my thoughts turned to what would be my western Orthodox patrimony (since there is not likely to be a WRO rural southern fundamentalist rite any time soon ;)), and it is -- regionally, anyway -- Acadian Catholicism, which has a significant devotion to Our Lady of Prompt Succor.

How does someone in the WR determine what is and isn't acceptable for Orthodox veneration from the western tradition?
I don't know about from a WRO perspective, or official approval, but I've seen the Virgin of Guadalupe in Eastern Orthodox Churches (but IIRC, not in the sanctuary, but in the narthex or such).  As opposed to Lourdes or Fatima, there is nothing unorthodox or heterodox about Guadalupe, except Juan Diego wasn't Orthodox.
Doesn't "She who has vanquished the Serpent" stem from that terrible RC misstranslation of Genesis 3:15?
It does, but I'm not sure if this wasn't added by the Vatican's devout, just like the image of the moon etc. on the tilme are additions added on (perhaps to make it into the woman of Revelation):they are not part of the original image.
But the word Guadalupe itself means, "She who has vanquished the Serpent." Unless you go with Gloria Anzaldua's syncretic translation- "Queen of the Serpents."
 

LBK

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ialmisry

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LBK said:
FatherGiryus said:
And so are "icons" of God the Father as an old man, the notorious "ark of salvation" picture, and any number of other images which are contrary to Orthodox doctrine and theology. Their mere presence in a bookstore inventory does not confer canonicity upon them.
It looks Turkish to me.
 

ialmisry

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Volnutt said:
ialmisry said:
Volnutt said:
ialmisry said:
Agabus said:
While weathering Tropical Storm Lee last night, our power went out and I was forced to duck around the corner to the dollar store to buy candles. Almost every candle except for some Virgen de Guadalupe week-long intention candles (these, to be exact) was sold, so I bought one and went home. It did its trick and made my apartment smell like roses.

Anyway, as I watched the candle burn, I got to wondering if there was a devotion to the Virgen de Guadalupe in the WRO. Most WR debates I have seen have centered around things like the Sacred Heart and Corpus Christi, but I haven't heard much discussion about various Marian apparitions (aside from generally suspicious comments about Lourdes and a general acceptance of Our Lady of Walsingham).

Since many WR folks tend to discuss the importance of patrimony, my thoughts turned to what would be my western Orthodox patrimony (since there is not likely to be a WRO rural southern fundamentalist rite any time soon ;)), and it is -- regionally, anyway -- Acadian Catholicism, which has a significant devotion to Our Lady of Prompt Succor.

How does someone in the WR determine what is and isn't acceptable for Orthodox veneration from the western tradition?
I don't know about from a WRO perspective, or official approval, but I've seen the Virgin of Guadalupe in Eastern Orthodox Churches (but IIRC, not in the sanctuary, but in the narthex or such).  As opposed to Lourdes or Fatima, there is nothing unorthodox or heterodox about Guadalupe, except Juan Diego wasn't Orthodox.
Doesn't "She who has vanquished the Serpent" stem from that terrible RC misstranslation of Genesis 3:15?
It does, but I'm not sure if this wasn't added by the Vatican's devout, just like the image of the moon etc. on the tilme are additions added on (perhaps to make it into the woman of Revelation):they are not part of the original image.
But the word Guadalupe itself means, "She who has vanquished the Serpent." Unless you go with Gloria Anzaldua's syncretic translation- "Queen of the Serpents."
Guadalupe means "Valley of the Wolf," a Arabic-Latin hybrid naming a town in central Spain.  The earliest account of Juan Diego are over a century after the event, and I don't know if this "Coatlaxopeuh" is part of the original story, or embellished, like the image, later to fit the Vatican's Marian expectations.
 

LBK

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My suspicions have been confirmed: the website to which Fr Giryus linked is Roman Catholic. The wares available in the icon section include an "icon" of the "Holy Family" (with St Joseph embracing the Mother of God - a definite no-no), and an image of the Nativity which is simply a neo-Byzantine rendering of western imagery, devoid of Orthodox doctrine and theology of the feast. Both images are quite unsuitable as Orthodox icons.
 

FatherGiryus

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How silly!  Everything you get from a Greek bookstore is perfect!  Just like everything you read in a book is absolutely true!  :D

LBK said:
FatherGiryus said:
And so are "icons" of God the Father as an old man, the notorious "ark of salvation" picture, and any number of other images which are contrary to Orthodox doctrine and theology. Their mere presence in a bookstore inventory does not confer canonicity upon them.
 
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