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Wanted: Catholics' thoughts on these 2 articles

Yirmiyahu

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<<I see them just as most Orthodox Jews see them, as
<<lunatics. See the attached link
<<http://www.jewishmediaresources.com/ncarticle/432/

Thank you for making your views clear, Jennifer. So let's recap. In your opinion:
Non-Jewish anti-Zionist = anti-Semite
Orthodox Jewish anti-Zionist = lunatic
Well, at least you don't mince words. The only thing I hope you will clarify is: does being opposed to a Palestinian state necessarily make one an anti-Arab racist? Is a Palestinian who supports the State of Israel necessarily a lunatic? Or do these things only work in one direction?
In any case, thank you for providing the link. As the article indicates, there are many anti-Zionist Jews who do not ally themselves with the Palestinians (though I am still unsure how being so allied would necessarily make one a "lunatic," but let that pass). As you evidently prefer more "moderate" anti-Zionists such as the members of Satmar, you will no doubt appreciate the comments of one of their Rav, Grand Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum:

"...it is our obligation to make it known in order that everyone should understand that the Zionists are not the nation of Israel...and it most definitely our holy obligation to announce before those nations of the world that the Zionists are not the spokespeople of the nation of Israel...it is a mitzvah (good deed) obligatory for each individual and group to protest and to proclaim with whichever means possible and to do everything within ones capability for the honor of the Lord which has been desecrated by the Zionists and one must protest at every occasion and at all times and at every place..."

<<I know you want to believe that the "good" religious
<<Jews are opposed to Israel because they don't
<<support secular Judaism but I'm afraid it's not true.
<<The strongest supporters of Israel in the US are the
<<Modern Orthodox.

I don't "want" to believe anything other than the truth, and the truth is that Zionism is a wholly secular ideology with no support in rabbinic Jewish tradition before the 19th century. This will not change no matter how loudly and how often some "Modern Orthodox" Jews say otherwise.
As for any group of people being "good," I tend to agree with my Solzhenitsyn that the "line between good and evil passes not through states, nor between political parties either - but right through every human heart."

<<So I take it you're moving then?

I won't play this game, Jennifer. The Americas are a lot further along in the process of conquest and subjugation than is Palestine/Israel, and what is feasible in one case may not be so in the other. In any case, I never said that all Jews should leave Palestine, or that the State of Israel should be entirely dismantled (though some Jews have). I have also never besought another nation to spend a great deal of tax-money defending my nation's sad treatment of its indigenous population, or my nations supposed "right to exist."
I get particularly annoyed when I see Christians and Jews defending Israel as if modern Jews had some kind of God-given right to establish a government there. Traditional Orthodox Jews and traditional Orthodox Christians, I think, can agree that this is not so, though for different reasons. Modernists in both groups, of course, are free to disagree.

<<BTW, are you concerned about the 800,000 Arab <<Jews expelled from Muslim countries?

I am of course concerned by injustice perpetrated against anyone, anywhere, but honestly I don't hold Muslim countries to the same standard as those countries which are supposed to be "western democracies." I also don't advocate foreign aid to those countries any more than I do for Israel.

<<I tell you what...when they're allowed to go home to
<<Egypt or Yemen, then the Palestinians can come
<<home too.

How very gracious of you.
 

Jennifer

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Aklie Semaet said:
Have you no sympathy for the Jews who lost their homes and who fought for their survival?

Did you even read what I wrote about the Jewish resistance movement against the Nazis or are you just babbling on without reading all the posts?

I'm a Christian and as such I accept that oppression is a part of human existence.

Then that’s is a worthless Christianity. I am a Christian and I don’t accept any oppression of anyone and will never live with it as a part of human existence. Oppression wasn’t always there so it does not need to remain.

My ancestors (yours too) conquered weaker people

Speak for yourself, you don’t know anything about my ancestors and no they did not conquer weaker people. If that sooths your ‘guilt’ psychology because you can only come to terms with the crimes of YOUR ancestors by implicating everyone else’s ancestors as well then that is your problem.

Maybe I should give my house back to the Native Americans but then that tribe destroyed another tribe that lived there before them and so on and so on.

Oh save the bull; the same bull that can be heard from the mouth of every conquering oppressor in the world. “Before we arrived your people fought each other” etc. Don’t just say things to say them. Yes, those Jews do deserve their houses and lands and bank accounts back.
I suspect that you're either very young or incredibly naive. If you live in the United States and participate in our society in any way then you live with the consequences of oppression. Where did the clothes that you wore today come from? Where did the money that paid your salary come from? America's natural resources were stolen from the Indians. A large part of our wealth came from the exploitation of African slaves. But yet you living in the modern world don't put up with oppression? If you it makes you feel better to live in that kind of a fantasy world then by all means continue on believing that you're not a part of the problem. And BTW every ethnic group that survives today 'ethnically cleansed' another ethnic group.

And when did oppression not exist? And when were we as Christians commended to fight against it at all costs? That's reducing Christianity to the social gospel. Jesus never advocated any revolution. He didn't stand up the Roman oppressors.

BTW, it's really easy for you to say that the Jews "deserve" what was stolen from them without actually doing anything about it.
 

Jennifer

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Yirmiyahu said:
<<Thank you for making your views clear, Jennifer. So let's recap. In your opinion:
Non-Jewish anti-Zionist = anti-Semite
Orthodox Jewish anti-Zionist = lunatic
Well, at least you don't mince words. The only thing I hope you will clarify is: does being opposed to a Palestinian state necessarily make one an anti-Arab racist? Is a Palestinian who supports the State of Israel necessarily a lunatic? Or do these things only work in one direction?
In any case, thank you for providing the link. As the article indicates, there are many anti-Zionist Jews who do not ally themselves with the Palestinians (though I am still unsure how being so allied would necessarily make one a "lunatic," but let that pass). As you evidently prefer more "moderate" anti-Zionists such as the members of Satmar, you will no doubt appreciate the comments of one of their Rav, Grand Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum:

"...it is our obligation to make it known in order that everyone should understand that the Zionists are not the nation of Israel...and it most definitely our holy obligation to announce before those nations of the world that the Zionists are not the spokespeople of the nation of Israel...it is a mitzvah (good deed) obligatory for each individual and group to protest and to proclaim with whichever means possible and to do everything within ones capability for the honor of the Lord which has been desecrated by the Zionists and one must protest at every occasion and at all times and at every place..."

<<I know you want to believe that the "good" religious
<<Jews are opposed to Israel because they don't
<<support secular Judaism but I'm afraid it's not true.
<<The strongest supporters of Israel in the US are the
<<Modern Orthodox.

I don't "want" to believe anything other than the truth, and the truth is that Zionism is a wholly secular ideology with no support in rabbinic Jewish tradition before the 19th century. This will not change no matter how loudly and how often some "Modern Orthodox" Jews say otherwise.
As for any group of people being "good," I tend to agree with my Solzhenitsyn that the "line between good and evil passes not through states, nor between political parties either - but right through every human heart."

<<So I take it you're moving then?

I won't play this game, Jennifer. The Americas are a lot further along in the process of conquest and subjugation than is Palestine/Israel, and what is feasible in one case may not be so in the other. In any case, I never said that all Jews should leave Palestine, or that the State of Israel should be entirely dismantled (though some Jews have). I have also never besought another nation to spend a great deal of tax-money defending my nation's sad treatment of its indigenous population, or my nations supposed "right to exist."
I get particularly annoyed when I see Christians and Jews defending Israel as if modern Jews had some kind of God-given right to establish a government there. Traditional Orthodox Jews and traditional Orthodox Christians, I think, can agree that this is not so, though for different reasons. Modernists in both groups, of course, are free to disagree.

<<BTW, are you concerned about the 800,000 Arab <<Jews expelled from Muslim countries?

I am of course concerned by injustice perpetrated against anyone, anywhere, but honestly I don't hold Muslim countries to the same standard as those countries which are supposed to be "western democracies." I also don't advocate foreign aid to those countries any more than I do for Israel.

<<I tell you what...when they're allowed to go home to
<<Egypt or Yemen, then the Palestinians can come
<<home too.

How very gracious of you.
I'm not a Hasidic Jew so I trust what other Hasidic Jews say about their fringe groups. BTW, I never said that non-zionists were anti-semetic. Unfortunately many people who condemn Israel are anti-semites but not all. Many are just ignorant but they don't hate the Jews. Although there is often an underlying dislike of Jews amongst non-Evangelical Christians.

And yes, I understand that zionism is secular but Israel is a nation full of Jews and Jews are commanded to love and support one another. The Modern Orthodox (do even know anything about the variations of Jewish Orthodoxy?) see the founding of Israel as part of divine providence that will bring about the Messiah. Ultra-Orthodox tend to believe that the Israel must be founded by the Messiah. But both groups support Israel because they love their fellow Jews.

I support the state of Israel not because I think they have a god-given right to exist but because I love the Jewish people. I love Jewish culture and traditions. I know the unfortunate facts of Jewish history. I know that if they don't have a place to hide then many of them will suffer persecutions and might be killed.
 

Aklie Semaet

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And BTW every ethnic group that survives today 'ethnically cleansed' another ethnic group.

OK, now your babbling and babbling nonsense.

And when were we as Christians commended to fight against it at all costs? That's reducing Christianity to the social gospel. Jesus never advocated any revolution.

Still babbling I see; no one said anything about ‘commanded’ or ‘all costs.’ No one, as far as I know, on this whole forum supports social gospel. And certainly no one claimed Jesus advocated any revolution. We are Orthodox Christians in case you haven’t noticed where you are posting. Are you capable of debate without resorting to straw man tactics?

BTW, it's really easy for you to say that the Jews "deserve" what was stolen from them without actually doing anything about it.

I hope you are not talking to me because you know absolutely zero about what I am doing about anything.

The rest of your post is sophomoric and not worth responding to.
 

Dan Lauffer

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Aklie,

I thought that you said you were going to stop ranting on about this subject. Please, do us all a favor and keep your word.

Dan Lauffer
 

Jennifer

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Aklie Semaet said:
And BTW every ethnic group that survives today 'ethnically cleansed' another ethnic group.

OK, now your babbling and babbling nonsense.

And when were we as Christians commended to fight against it at all costs? That's reducing Christianity to the social gospel. Jesus never advocated any revolution.

Still babbling I see; no one said anything about ‘commanded’ or ‘all costs.’ No one, as far as I know, on this whole forum supports social gospel. And certainly no one claimed Jesus advocated any revolution. We are Orthodox Christians in case you haven’t noticed where you are posting. Are you capable of debate without resorting to straw man tactics?

BTW, it's really easy for you to say that the Jews "deserve" what was stolen from them without actually doing anything about it.

I hope you are not talking to me because you know absolutely zero about what I am doing about anything.

The rest of your post is sophomoric and not worth responding to.
You know what's really "sophomoric" is to make a lot of noise about how you won't respond to someone's posts and then to do it only about an hour later. It's obvious that you're a young man. Probably college or maybe high school. All upset about the unfairness of the world. Luckily for you immaturity is something you can grow out of.

BTW, you never addressed any of the historical facts about the founding of Israel. Like for example, the fact that the majority of Israelis are of Arab descent. And that many Jews already lived in the Holy Land before the foundation of Israel. I know those are inconvenient facts for those you spew garbage like "my Palestinian brothers and sisters" and "zionist war criminals" but unfortunately for you they are the truth. The existence of the Jews are always inconvenient facts. Luckily for most Orthodox and Catholics, all of the Jews who lived among them were killed so they don't have to face the "Jewish problem."

Oh but you don't hate the Jews. Right. You just use terms like "zionist war criminal." And you think that it's so unfair that those poor European Jews were stripped of all of their property. That's wrong. How unfair. They deserve to get their stuff back. It should be that easy. But unfortunately in the real world it's not that easy and the people living in their homes back in Poland or Romania or Ukraine aren't budging.

 

Yirmiyahu

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<<The Modern Orthodox (do even know anything about
<<the variations of Jewish Orthodoxy?) see the founding
<<of Israel as part of divine providence that will bring
<<about the Messiah.

I'm not sure which part of my reply gave you the impression that I am unaware of the various groups of Orthodox Jews. (The fact that you seem to believe all "black hats" are Hassidim indicates that you may have some brushing up to do yourself.)
I will reiterate: the fact that certain Orthodox Jews took a fundamentally secular idea and tried to "baptize" it in a mikvah pool doesn't mean that Zionism is consistent with traditional Judaism. There is a reason they are called "Modern" Orthodox.

<<Ultra-Orthodox tend to believe that the Israel must
<<be founded by the Messiah. But both groups support
<<Israel because they love their fellow Jews.

As the articles both of us have linked would indicate, many Haredim (this is preferred term to "ultra-Orthodox" and will cover both the Hassidic and non-Hassidic varieties) do not support the State of Israel. The fact that some of them are more vocal than others does not change the fact that anti-Zionism is perhaps the dominant viewpoint among the Haredim.
In any case, you paint too rosy a picture with regard to the views of Haredim toward secular Jews. Some Haredim view secular Jews as fallen or heretical brethren, it is true, though others deny the name of Jew to those who have traded Torah Judaism for godlessness.

You have written to Aklie:

<<It's obvious that you're a young man. Probably
<<college or maybe high school. All upset about the
<<unfairness of the world. Luckily for you immaturity is
<<something you can grow out of.

Lucky for you it is possible to learn how to argue a point with using ad hominem attacks.

<<I know those are inconvenient facts for those you
<<spew garbage like "my Palestinian brothers and
<<sisters"

I am not sure why the phrase "my Palestinian brothers and sisters" is garbage. Many Palestinians are our coreligionists, as Orthodox and Catholics. You say you have a special love of the Jewish people- is it wrong that some others have a special love for the Palestinian people? Do you think that it is impossible to love both Jews and Palestinians, and to see them as brethren in some sense?

<<Oh but [/i]you don't hate the Jews. Right. You just
<<use terms like "zionist war criminal."

I thought you admitted that being an anti-Zionist doesn't make one an anti-Semite. The phrase "zionist war criminal" is just as accurate as "Palestinian terrorist" in many cases.
 

Jennifer

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Yirmiyahu said:
<<The Modern Orthodox (do even know anything about
<<the variations of Jewish Orthodoxy?) see the founding
<<of Israel as part of divine providence that will bring
<<about the Messiah.

I'm not sure which part of my reply gave you the impression that I am unaware of the various groups of Orthodox Jews. (The fact that you seem to believe all "black hats" are Hassidim indicates that you may have some brushing up to do yourself.)
I will reiterate: the fact that certain Orthodox Jews took a fundamentally secular idea and tried to "baptize" it in a mikvah pool doesn't mean that Zionism is consistent with traditional Judaism. There is a reason they are called "Modern" Orthodox.

<<Ultra-Orthodox tend to believe that the Israel must
<<be founded by the Messiah. But both groups support
<<Israel because they love their fellow Jews.

As the articles both of us have linked would indicate, many Haredim (this is preferred term to "ultra-Orthodox" and will cover both the Hassidic and non-Hassidic varieties) do not support the State of Israel. The fact that some of them are more vocal than others does not change the fact that anti-Zionism is perhaps the dominant viewpoint among the Haredim.
In any case, you paint too rosy a picture with regard to the views of Haredim toward secular Jews. Some Haredim view secular Jews as fallen or heretical brethren, it is true, though others deny the name of Jew to those who have traded Torah Judaism for godlessness.

You have written to Aklie:

<<It's obvious that you're a young man. Probably
<<college or maybe high school. All upset about the
<<unfairness of the world. Luckily for you immaturity is
<<something you can grow out of.

Lucky for you it is possible to learn how to argue a point with using ad hominem attacks.

<<I know those are inconvenient facts for those you
<<spew garbage like "my Palestinian brothers and
<<sisters"

I am not sure why the phrase "my Palestinian brothers and sisters" is garbage. Many Palestinians are our coreligionists, as Orthodox and Catholics. You say you have a special love of the Jewish people- is it wrong that some others have a special love for the Palestinian people? Do you think that it is impossible to love both Jews and Palestinians, and to see them as brethren in some sense?

<<Oh but [/i]you don't hate the Jews. Right. You just
<<use terms like "zionist war criminal."

I thought you admitted that being an anti-Zionist doesn't make one an anti-Semite. The phrase "zionist war criminal" is just as accurate as "Palestinian terrorist" in many cases.


First, I didn't write that all "black hats" were Hasidic. I wrote that there were many "black hats" at the recent pro-Israel rallies in DC and NYC. I've been to Boro Park many times and have seen the wide variety in the Chareidi community.

Second, I know that "ultra-Orthodox" is not the preferred term but it's a good descriptive term for a forum like this. In fact, most of the "ultra-Orthodox" Jews I know (Yeshivish or Hasidic) refer to themselves as "Ultra-Orthodox" to outsiders.

Third, I take offense at your assumption that the Modern Orthodox are somehow less Orthodox than the Haredi. Most Orthodox Jews outside of Brooklyn are Modern-O. The main difference between them and the Hareidi is the way they dress and their acceptance of secular education.

Fourth, while most Haredi Jews are not Zionists, they still support the state of Israel. I've never met a Haredi Jew who didn't have relatives living in Israel. Who didn't regularly visit the Holy Land. Last year, Agudah Israel sponsored a prayer service in Manhattan for the protection of Israel which was attended by many Boro Park Hasidim and Mitnagdim.

Fourth, no Orthodox Jew says that someone born to a Jewish mother is no longer a Jew because they are secular. The infamous Agudah Israel advertisement said that Reform and Conservative were not Judaism not that Reform and Conservative Jews were not Jews. Of course they don't believe that all adherents of Reform and Conservative are really Jews because they don't accept R or C conversions or patri-lineal descent like the Reform. And I'm well aware of the hostility between secular Israelis and religious Jews but they are united in their support of Israel's policies.

 
E

Economan

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Given the treatment of Christians under Muslim rule, why do people think that a Palestian state would treat its Christian minorities better than Israel?
Prior to 911 I could technically see how one could be anti-Israeli but not anti-Jewish. Now, I fail to see the difference.

 

Aklie Semaet

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Again,

I know those are inconvenient facts for those you spew garbage like "my Palestinian brothers and sisters" and "zionist war criminals" but unfortunately for you they are the truth.

I am sorry that to consider a Palestinian my brother is considered ‘garbage’ by you. I take that with a grain of salt because you have already proven yourself to be one of the fanatics that even deny the humanity of Palestinians and their very existence. So why did you choose to write Palestinian instead of “Palestinian” this time? I didn’t call all Israelis war criminals, but Ariel Sharon is a racist and is a Zionist war criminal. Go to http://www.indictsharon.net/frames.html and click on “Press Section” especially read the articles from the Sydney Morning Herald an article by Robert Fisk in the Independent.

the fact that the majority of Israelis are of Arab descent

Where did you get that wild ‘fact’ from?

Unfortunately for YOU there are facts. Arabs make up more than 1 million of Israel's 6.5 million citizens, that is no majority. The Arab Israelis are treated much like the Palestinians. They get shot by Israeli forces for having demonstrations and European Jews launch race riots against them. They are discriminated against much like all other Arabs (and non-European Jews) http://www.oneworld.net/ips2/apr98/11_04_013.html. Here is another interesting article on their plight and treatment http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/israel001010.html

The average Israeli is an Arab huh?! Most Israelis are Arab huh? Then why isn’t the Prime Minister an Arab; why isn’t the majority of the government Arab? Maybe because those racist Zionist imported their European racism with them to the Middle East?

Zionism is European racism and Israel is a racist state. How many other countries can we wake up and read an article like?:

July 9, 2002 Associated Press:

JERUSALEM (AP) - The Israeli government has approved a proposal that would prevent Arab citizens of Israel from purchasing land in some rural communities, effectively restricting them to Jewish residents.

Until a March 2000 decision of the Israeli Supreme Court Arabs were prevented from purchasing much rural land. And since that court decision it is still run that way and Arabs are still denied land, still denied citizenship. It doesn’t take much web surfing before coming across some racist Zionists crying about because those fertile Arab women keep having babies that by 2035 Israel will be destroyed because the Arabs will out vote them.

Oh but you don't hate the Jews. Right.

I am not going to bend over backwards to list my “I don’t hate Jews” credentials for you. Jews didn’t do anything to me and I have no reason to hate them. I talk no differently than my many anti-Zionist Jewish activists friends some of who are involved in Not in My Name http://www.nimn.org/ and some who are more radical than them and won’t even join that organization. What about Noam Chomsky? He’s a self-hating Jew? What about you? I think you are a racist and that you hate Black people. Prove me wrong, provide with your liberal list and resume of civil rights activities. See how absurd it is?

Down with Hate
Down with Racism
Down with Anti-Jewish discrimination
Down with Zionist apartheid

Spread the Love; one!
 

Dan Lauffer

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Aklie,

Stop!! Stop!! You're killing me! You say you are not going to post any longer and yet you can't stay away. Must be some psychological quirk on your part or perhaps a character disorder.

Dan Lauffer ::)
 

Jennifer

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Aklie Semaet said:
Again,

I know those are inconvenient facts for those you spew garbage like "my Palestinian brothers and sisters" and "zionist war criminals" but unfortunately for you they are the truth.

I am sorry that to consider a Palestinian my brother is considered ‘garbage’ by you. I take that with a grain of salt because you have already proven yourself to be one of the fanatics that even deny the humanity of Palestinians and their very existence. So why did you choose to write Palestinian instead of “Palestinian” this time? I didn’t call all Israelis war criminals, but Ariel Sharon is a racist and is a Zionist war criminal. Go to http://www.indictsharon.net/frames.html and click on “Press Section” especially read the articles from the Sydney Morning Herald an article by Robert Fisk in the Independent.

the fact that the majority of Israelis are of Arab descent

Where did you get that wild ‘fact’ from?

Unfortunately for YOU there are facts. Arabs make up more than 1 million of Israel's 6.5 million citizens, that is no majority. The Arab Israelis are treated much like the Palestinians. They get shot by Israeli forces for having demonstrations and European Jews launch race riots against them. They are discriminated against much like all other Arabs (and non-European Jews) http://www.oneworld.net/ips2/apr98/11_04_013.html. Here is another interesting article on their plight and treatment http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/israel001010.html

The average Israeli is an Arab huh?! Most Israelis are Arab huh? Then why isn’t the Prime Minister an Arab; why isn’t the majority of the government Arab? Maybe because those racist Zionist imported their European racism with them to the Middle East?

Zionism is European racism and Israel is a racist state. How many other countries can we wake up and read an article like?:

July 9, 2002 Associated Press:

JERUSALEM (AP) - The Israeli government has approved a proposal that would prevent Arab citizens of Israel from purchasing land in some rural communities, effectively restricting them to Jewish residents.

Until a March 2000 decision of the Israeli Supreme Court Arabs were prevented from purchasing much rural land. And since that court decision it is still run that way and Arabs are still denied land, still denied citizenship. It doesn’t take much web surfing before coming across some racist Zionists crying about because those fertile Arab women keep having babies that by 2035 Israel will be destroyed because the Arabs will out vote them.

Oh but you don't hate the Jews. Right.

I am not going to bend over backwards to list my “I don’t hate Jews” credentials for you. Jews didn’t do anything to me and I have no reason to hate them. I talk no differently than my many anti-Zionist Jewish activists friends some of who are involved in Not in My Name http://www.nimn.org/ and some who are more radical than them and won’t even join that organization. What about Noam Chomsky? He’s a self-hating Jew? What about you? I think you are a racist and that you hate Black people. Prove me wrong, provide with your liberal list and resume of civil rights activities. See how absurd it is?

Down with Hate
Down with Racism
Down with Anti-Jewish discrimination
Down with Zionist apartheid

Spread the Love; one!
Calm down. You're getting hysterical. I never "denied the humanity of the Palestinians." BTW, you keep writing "European Jews" when it's been proven that the majority of Israeli Jews are Sephardic and of Arab descent. The 800,000 expelled from Egypt and Iraq, etc have never been Europeans. BTW, one of the most powerful political parties in Israel is Shas which is the Sephardic Orthodox party. It's members are Sephardim kicked out of Arab countries. But you'll ignore that because it's another inconvenient fact.

 

nstanosheck

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Can we please state our opinions of the State of Israel issue without making personal attacks please? I don't have much of an opinion on the matter, but this conversation is likely to alienate people to the argued positions based on the behavior in this discussion.
 

Yirmiyahu

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<<Third, I take offense at your assumption that the
<<Modern Orthodox are somehow less Orthodox than
<<the Haredi.

I know it is difficult in heated discussions such as this, but please don't put words into my mouth (I will try to do the same for you). I am not saying that the Modern Orthodox are "less Orthodox;" I am saying that insofar as they are religious Zionists, they have departed from some important aspects of rabbinical Jewish tradition. The differences between the Haredim and Modern Orthodox go deeper than dress; they are based not only in certain historical factors, but also in different opinions concerning the mutability of tradition.

<<Fourth, while most Haredi Jews are not Zionists, they
<<still support the state of Israel.

As you no doubt know, the views of moderate Haredim are a bit more complicated than this. By definition, the fact that they are non-Zionists means that they cannot accept the validity of the State of Israel. However, some will even participate to some degree in the Israeli government because they view the establishment of that state as a historical fact which is not entirely welcome, but which can in some respects be beneficial. In this respect they have a similar view toward the secular state similar to the historical opinion of traditional Shi'ite Mullahs concerning the Shahs of Iran (before the Iranian revolution of 1979, of course).

<<Fourth, no Orthodox Jew says that someone born to
<<a Jewish mother is no longer a Jew because they are
<<secular. The infamous Agudah Israel advertisement
<<said that Reform and Conservative were not Judaism
<<not that Reform and Conservative Jews were not
<<Jews.

Yes. I concede that this is more accurate than what I first wrote. Sorry for not being more careful in my choice of words.

<<And I'm well aware of the hostility between secular
<<Israelis and religious Jews but they are united in their
<<support of Israel's policies.

To which of "Israel's policies" are you referring? Certainly not those concerning the Palestinians, right?! It is well known that there many dissenting viewpoints among Israelis on this point, and those who hold them come from a variety of different political and religious backgrounds. On the liberal side, there are non-Zionist activists and writers such as Uri Avnery who are strong advocates for the Palestinian cause.
 

Aklie Semaet

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Dan, I choose to think that you are joking so I will not take offense, God Bless you too. And I don’t wish for you to die so please cut that out :)

Jennifer, talk about ignoring facts! I just posted that more than one million (but less than 2 million) of Israelis are Arabs in a population approaching 7 million Israelis. They are also discriminated against and treated like other Palestinians, I provided links for this claim as well. If you have demographic data that refutes this mainstream view then please post it.
 

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Aklie Semaet said:
Dan, I choose to think that you are joking so I will not take offense, God Bless you too. And I don’t wish for you to die so please cut that out :)

Jennifer, talk about ignoring facts! I just posted that more than one million (but less than 2 million) of Israelis are Arabs in a population approaching 7 million Israelis. They are also discriminated against and treated like other Palestinians, I provided links for this claim as well. If you have demographic data that refutes this mainstream view then please post it.
The Arab citizens of Israel face difficulties but they are citizens of Israel and allowed access to education. They're allowed to vote. If Israel really had an racist apartheid system, the Arabs would not be allowed citizenship. Here's a link showing the world's population of Jews and that 60% of Israelis are Sephardic.
http://www.orthohelp.com/geneal/popul.HTM

Here are some more sites from many different perspectives.
http://www.sephardiccafe.com/split.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1998/10/98/middle_east/79650.stm
http://www.geocities.com/youth4sa/palestinehistory.html

BTW, what of the Jews who had lived in Israel for centuries? Did you know that in 1890 there were 43,000 Jews living in what is now Israel? The population of Jerusalem in 1900 was 28,000 Jewish and only 17,000 Muslim and Christian.
 

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I'm not a Hasidic Jew so I trust what other Hasidic Jews say about their fringe groups. BTW, I never said that non-zionists were anti-semetic. Unfortunately many people who condemn Israel are anti-semites but not all.
What kind of ludicrous blanket statement is this? Are you some diviner of hearts, Miss, able to glimpse the intents and motives of those who oppose this ideology of land piracy, and figure out how great a portion of people who hold this view are sinister individuals?

Many are just ignorant but they don't hate the Jews.
I see. So the unclean masses who don't concur with your convuluted convictions must be either anti-Semites or stupid (I take it the latter class is exclusively made up of Jews; any Gentile who opposes Zionism is ipso facto an antiSemite I suppose).
Brilliant, Watson!

Although there is often an underlying dislike of Jews amongst non-Evangelical Christians.
Miss, a Harvard professor of sociology could do better, really.

And yes, I understand that zionism is secular but Israel is a nation full of Jews and Jews are commanded to love and support one another.
And where the hell is your support for your fellow Christians who are suffering as victims of Israeli bloodlust?

Sorry. My country right or wrong does not sit well with basic and rudimentary moral principles. When your brother errs, you do not support him. And if you love him, you will correct him. Jews who do not support Zionism are outraged that murderous acts are being committed in their name; they aren't happy to support their fellow Jews by nodding in approval to the Israeli state's criminal acts and destructive behavior.

That Zionists assert their actions and cause are representative of the "Jewish people" is an insult to the Jews whose consciences cry out in violation against the actions of this butchering State.

The Modern Orthodox (do even know anything about the variations of Jewish Orthodoxy?) see the founding of Israel as part of divine providence that will bring about the Messiah. Ultra-Orthodox tend to believe that the Israel must be founded by the Messiah.
I don't give a rat's ass what their quaint little beliefs are. No trespassers allowed. Especially armed ones.

But both groups support Israel because they love their fellow Jews.
How can you insinuate that love for a people (which the Jews are not, Judaism coming from an entirely different class of categorization) is synonymous with love for a state? You obviously operate from a bizzare paradigm we Middle Easterners thankfully don't engage in. You imply by this statement that a Jew who doesn't support Israel, hates his fellow Jews, immediately delegitimizing the other side of the argument.

I support the state of Israel not because I think they have a god-given right to exist but because I love the Jewish people.
I find it incredible that an American such as yourself, hailing from a societal background that disavows the core concepts of culture, ethnicity, and tribe, can patronizingly encase "Palestinians" in mock quotations, an identity that designates the indigenous inhabitants of this piece of land (and that includes native Jews) who have a culture and history, while speaking of this rediculous concept of a Jewish "people" (which also implies a false dichotomy: Arabs/Jews), a "people" who share no ethnicity, no culture, and not even one religion (yes, the non-Talmudic Falashas for example), a "people" that are no less a freak social engineering experiment, a wildly heterogeneous society, and a chaotic collage when brought together to supplant the native inhabitants, than is a country where you plant Indians, Arabs, Russians, Germans, Englishmen, Africans, Asians, and Eskimos, who all speak a common language, into one place. Let's just say when pop culture thrives somewhere, it is an indication of a cultural void that has to be filled by something to establish some kind of common bond between people, and boy does it thrive there. The musical representative for Israel at one time was some freaking pervert who had a sex-change operation.

Let me say one thing: I deeply value the indigenous Palestinian Jewish population that had existed alongside us for centuries and long before Jewish migrations from the 1800's onwards took their toll. God knows what remains of those after flooding the place with Jews of all races and ethnicities. One can argue that the Zionist movement has effectively destroyed the native Palestinian Jews, who have been swallowed up by this the smorgasbord of different peoples settling in.

I love Jewish culture and traditions.
Hey lady, believe me I also enjoyed Fiddler on the Roof immensely and found its characters to be charming, though that film was a sub-moronic piece of Zionist propaganda and Topol was a friend to that bastard Rehavam Ze'evi.

This is your grand sweeping statement of clarification meant to justify land theft, and a reign of terror--and grave violations of the 6th and 8th commandments? Maybe you should know that being an "anti-Semite" is no less dangerous (a point well made in an column linked to at the bottom) and morally objectionable than being a Semito-phile, where grand delusions of every Jew being a charming and witty fellow absolves them of every heinous action under the sun. The way you rant against Christians makes me wonder whether you hail from the clan of libel-mongers who accuse Pope Pius XII of supporting the Nazis, when the man cared more for the Jews than the Allies ever did.

I know the unfortunate facts of Jewish history.
Jews are not unique in their history. Gypsies have a fully comparable history of suffering (a point also mentioned in the aforementioned column). Shall we go ahead and partition your home state to create a home for them? Maybe we should relocate you and your family to a neighboring state or across the border to Mexico. And in case you haven't noticed, Israel as it presently is, proves a damning defeat for the Zionist argument and purpose. It is probably the least safe place for a Jew to live in, and I assure you you won't be seeing pogroms in Europe or the First World countries anytime soon, unless you share the same hypochondriacal psychosis that exists amongst sensationalists who can't but see a dangerous submerged anti-Semitic bloodlust behind every thought, word, and deed.

The existance of Israel jeapordizes the very purpose of the Zionist project; not only this, this state's oppression breeds more hatred against Jews, many of whom have no fault in this matter (as the reckless galavanting and Herculian fits of madness of the American government intesifies hate against Americans who are blameless). In other words, the Zionist project as it is being implemented accomplishes the exact opposite of what it set out to do.

I know that if they don't have a place to hide then many of them will suffer persecutions and might be killed.
This sounds like the paranoic hysteria prevalent amongst homosexual activists. This is not World War II. The Western world does not do pogroms anymore. Jews should be more fearful for their lives in Israel than where many of them find themselves living today.

As for the above quote functioning as a pretext for the Zionist political legacy, the ends do not justify the means! Two wrongs don't make a right. What an obscenely rediculous and unCatholic view of the world you have! You have a soft spot for Jewish food, dances, and Yiddish accents, and that is around what morally heavy matters of stolen land, destruction of homes, and lost lives should revolve? Pathetic. And here you are accusing Aklie of being an immature little boy, when you sound as intellectually juvenile as a snotty nosed delinquint. You, whom I presume have had no experience living in the Middle East, can pontificate elsewhere. Yalla, imshee!

Oh yes, and as an Eastern Catholic, I am disgusted to even consider you my coreligionist when you set yourself up against Catholics, Orthodox, and Orientals who have lived on this soil for centuries, the descendants of the first Christians.

I would like to see you spout your vitriol in the faces of the Patriarchs and the Arab Christians who have lost loved ones.

Now for an inside view by a "self-loathing Jew" with Israeli citizenship, read the insightful columns of this gentleman:
http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/h-col.html

And this is something on Anti-Semitism, by a Jew as well:
http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann0604.html

In IC XC
Samer
 

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sinjinsmythe said:
I just love this!!! Here I am reading a discussion on Cardinal Law and it turns into a debate over the Jews in Israel. ??? I just love the internet and its discussion boards ::)
I hear you. Perhaps the participants could agree (Ha! Ha!) and take this discussion to the other 2 threads already about Zionists, Jews and Israel ???
 

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SamB said:
Jennifer said:
I'm not a Hasidic Jew so I trust what other Hasidic Jews say about their fringe groups. BTW, I never said that non-zionists were anti-semetic. Unfortunately many people who condemn Israel are anti-semites but not all.
What kind of ludicrous blanket statement is this? Are you some diviner of hearts, Miss, able to glimpse the intents and motives of those who oppose this ideology of land piracy, and figure out how great a portion of people who hold this view are sinister individuals?

I see. So the unclean masses who don't concur with your convuluted convictions must be either anti-Semites or stupid (I take it the latter class is exclusively made up of Jews; any Gentile who opposes Zionism is ipso facto an antiSemite I suppose).

Let's review the many ignorant statements we've seen posted on this thread. The Israelis are European. That's not true. Most Israelis speak Yiddish. Again, not true. Most people unfortunately believe many un-truths about Israel. They don't know why the camps exist. They don't know that the majority of Israelis are Sephardic. They don't know that the Palestinian refugees are forbidden from entering any Arab nation. And BTW, I have very clearly stated several times that I do not believe that everyone who opposes Israel is an anti-semite.

Miss, a Harvard professor of sociology could do better, really.

It's an unfortunate fact that many Christians have been anti-semitic. It is an unfortunate fact that many Catholic and Orthodox peoples have murdered Jews.

And where the hell is your support for your fellow Christians who are suffering as victims of Israeli bloodlust?

"Bloodlust?" The Jews just want to survive. Who straps bombs to themselves and blows up buses full of schoolchildren?

Jews who do not support Zionism are outraged that murderous acts are being committed in their name; they aren't happy to support their fellow Jews by nodding in approval to the Israeli state's criminal acts and destructive behavior.

And the Palestinian Authority is any better? Or any other Arab nation for that matter? Israel is at war with people who want to see them pushed into the sea (I believe a poster here wrote that he wanted to see the Holy Land free of zionist Jews). They're defending themselves. They're not doing anything different than other countries have done throughout the ages including mine and probably yours.

That Zionists assert their actions and cause are representative of the "Jewish people" is an insult to the Jews whose consciences cry out in violation against the actions of this butchering State.

The Jews are a realistic people and they know that they will always be persecuted and hated. They see that they need their own country so they will have someplace to hide when the pogroms start again.

I don't give a rat's ass what their quaint little beliefs are. No trespassers allowed. Especially armed ones.

Christian anti-semitism once again. BTW, do you live in the US? Are you a native person? Then you're a trespasser.

How can you insinuate that love for a people (which the Jews are not, Judaism coming from an entirely different class of categorization) is synonymous with love for a state?

I love the Jews and I know that without the state of Israel 6 million Jews have no place to live. I also know that without the state of Israel, Jews will be murdered.

"Palestinians" in mock quotations, an identity that designates the indigenous inhabitants of this piece of land (and that includes native Jews) who have a culture and history,

You've obviously bought the "Palestinian" myth. There is no such thing as "Palestinian" nationalism. It didn't exist until the last century. There are no such people as "Palestinians."

God knows what remains of those after flooding the place with Jews of all races and ethnicities. One can argue that the Zionist movement has effectively destroyed the native Palestinian Jews, who have been swallowed up by this the smorgasbord of different peoples settling in.

I guess the Ukrainian Jews fleeing the Chmielnicki pogroms should have stayed in the Ukraine where they might have been murdered so the indigenous "Palestinian" Jews and Arabs could maintain their ethnic purity. Why do think European Jews came to Palestine? Where else were they supposed to go? No one ever has an answer for that question.

Hey lady, believe me I also enjoyed Fiddler on the Roof immensely and found its characters to be charming, though that film was a sub-moronic piece of Zionist propaganda and Topol was a friend to that bastard Rehavam Ze'evi.

Again with the "zionist propaganda?" It's been awhile since I've seen it but I don't recall how it was "zionist propaganda" since the main characters emigrate to the United States when they are forced out of Russia. That's probably the objection. We don't deal with the persecution of the Jews by good Orthodox Russia.

This is your grand sweeping statement of clarification meant to justify land theft, and a reign of terror--and grave violations of the 6th and 8th commandments?

I know that we need to pretend that all true Christians loved their Jewish neighbors and never did anything to hurt them. That makes us feel better. And anyone who says otherwise is accused of "ranting" and being "liberal." I know what Pope Pius XII did to help the Jews but I also know what many Catholics and Orthodox didn't do the help the Jews. You talk about theft...well what the theft of Jewish property in Europe? Good Catholic Poles got a windfall from the Holocaust. Homes, businesses, farms, etc. that had belonged to Jews for centuries are not owned by Eastern Europeans. Is that not theft? Why no angry rants against the Poles or the Ukrainians?

Jews are not unique in their history. It is probably the least safe place for a Jew to live in, and I assure you you won't be seeing pogroms in Europe or the First World countries anytime soon, unless you share the same hypochondriacal psychosis that exists amongst sensationalists who can't but see a dangerous submerged anti-Semitic bloodlust behind every thought, word, and deed.

Jewish history is unique. They're the people of Christ. BTW, please explain the recent attacks against Jewish communities in Germany and France. Sorry I don't share your rose colored view of Europe. Europe has never come to grips with its role in the murder of the 6 million. Unfortunately anti-semitism is alive and well in Europe. Was is a French or English diplomat that recently said "F*ck the Jews?"

Let's go tell the Jews that they don't have to worry anymore. They can ignore 2000 years of history. They've been safe for what...fifty years? They should just get over their paranoia. BTW, do some reading about the dramatic increase of anti-semitism in Russia. No wonder so many Russian Jews are fleeing.

You know nothing about why I love the Jews. It's more than a "soft spot" for Jewish culture. Why no pontificating about the stolen land of the Jews in western Europe? You're in communion with the good Roman Catholics of Poland. Go tell them to give back what they stole from their Jewish neighbors. You can't scream about stealing from the "Palestinians" when you're not morally offended by stealing from the Jews. Maybe if no one stolen from the Jews, there would be no Israel. In fact, had not been the Holocaust, there would be no modern day state of Israel. But to you that's water under the bridge. Nobody seriously believes that millions of Jews should return to Poland. So where are they supposed to go?

Oh yes, and as an Eastern Catholic, I am disgusted to even consider you my coreligionist when you set yourself up against Catholics, Orthodox, and Orientals who have lived on this soil for centuries, the descendants of the first Christians.

I'm disgusted to be in communion with anti-semites. BTW, I didn't say you were an anti-semite although it's likely you've been influenced by anti-semitic literate and websites.

I would like to see you spout your vitriol in the faces of the Patriarchs and the Arab Christians who have lost loved ones.

I'd like to see you tell the 2 million survivors of the Holocaust living in displaced persons camps in Germany in 1946 that they will be "trespassors" in the Holy Land and that the Poles and the Ukrainians don't want them back and you won't lift a finger to get their land back so I guess they should just get used to living in the camps because there is no place in the world for them to go.
 

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Samer,

First of all that was a brilliant and well stated post you put up. But do you notice the hooligan method of argumentative trickery that was used in response? You speak of crimes by the Zionist against YOUR people and she responds by citing crimes against Jews by another people. You mention how the Zionist stole the land of YOUR people and she responds by pointing to land that was taken by Poles. See the problem, she thinks because Jews have been wronged somewhere else by some other people then that justifies Jews wronging another people who had nothing to do with those crimes. Talk about massacres the Zionist carried out yesterday against Palestinians and she is going to mention some massacre committed by Poles that had nothing to do with Palestinians seventy years ago. You who have first hand living experience and blood ties to the Middle East are caught in the spell binding wizardry of “anti-Semitic literate and websites” while she, who is so far to the right that she doesn’t even allow pro-Zionist yet liberal opinion and puts Palestinians in quotation marks is presumably open minded and not caught up in anti-Arab websites.

Oh yes, and as an Eastern Catholic, I am disgusted to even consider you my coreligionist when you set yourself up against Catholics, Orthodox, and Orientals who have lived on this soil for centuries, the descendants of the first Christians

I don’t think that she understood this statement Samer. She accused you, who speak more Semitic than she can dream about, of being an anti-Semite based on this comment.
 

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Again as stated in my other post, events in these topics are getting out of hand. Political rhetoric isn't part of Orthodoxy. If you want to discuss it though, go ahead just tone it down and quit with the ad hominems.

Bobby
 
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