Yirmiyahu
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- Joined
- Dec 1, 2002
- Messages
- 14
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<<I see them just as most Orthodox Jews see them, as
<<lunatics. See the attached link
<<http://www.jewishmediaresources.com/ncarticle/432/
Thank you for making your views clear, Jennifer. So let's recap. In your opinion:
Non-Jewish anti-Zionist = anti-Semite
Orthodox Jewish anti-Zionist = lunatic
Well, at least you don't mince words. The only thing I hope you will clarify is: does being opposed to a Palestinian state necessarily make one an anti-Arab racist? Is a Palestinian who supports the State of Israel necessarily a lunatic? Or do these things only work in one direction?
In any case, thank you for providing the link. As the article indicates, there are many anti-Zionist Jews who do not ally themselves with the Palestinians (though I am still unsure how being so allied would necessarily make one a "lunatic," but let that pass). As you evidently prefer more "moderate" anti-Zionists such as the members of Satmar, you will no doubt appreciate the comments of one of their Rav, Grand Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum:
"...it is our obligation to make it known in order that everyone should understand that the Zionists are not the nation of Israel...and it most definitely our holy obligation to announce before those nations of the world that the Zionists are not the spokespeople of the nation of Israel...it is a mitzvah (good deed) obligatory for each individual and group to protest and to proclaim with whichever means possible and to do everything within ones capability for the honor of the Lord which has been desecrated by the Zionists and one must protest at every occasion and at all times and at every place..."
<<I know you want to believe that the "good" religious
<<Jews are opposed to Israel because they don't
<<support secular Judaism but I'm afraid it's not true.
<<The strongest supporters of Israel in the US are the
<<Modern Orthodox.
I don't "want" to believe anything other than the truth, and the truth is that Zionism is a wholly secular ideology with no support in rabbinic Jewish tradition before the 19th century. This will not change no matter how loudly and how often some "Modern Orthodox" Jews say otherwise.
As for any group of people being "good," I tend to agree with my Solzhenitsyn that the "line between good and evil passes not through states, nor between political parties either - but right through every human heart."
<<So I take it you're moving then?
I won't play this game, Jennifer. The Americas are a lot further along in the process of conquest and subjugation than is Palestine/Israel, and what is feasible in one case may not be so in the other. In any case, I never said that all Jews should leave Palestine, or that the State of Israel should be entirely dismantled (though some Jews have). I have also never besought another nation to spend a great deal of tax-money defending my nation's sad treatment of its indigenous population, or my nations supposed "right to exist."
I get particularly annoyed when I see Christians and Jews defending Israel as if modern Jews had some kind of God-given right to establish a government there. Traditional Orthodox Jews and traditional Orthodox Christians, I think, can agree that this is not so, though for different reasons. Modernists in both groups, of course, are free to disagree.
<<BTW, are you concerned about the 800,000 Arab <<Jews expelled from Muslim countries?
I am of course concerned by injustice perpetrated against anyone, anywhere, but honestly I don't hold Muslim countries to the same standard as those countries which are supposed to be "western democracies." I also don't advocate foreign aid to those countries any more than I do for Israel.
<<I tell you what...when they're allowed to go home to
<<Egypt or Yemen, then the Palestinians can come
<<home too.
How very gracious of you.
<<lunatics. See the attached link
<<http://www.jewishmediaresources.com/ncarticle/432/
Thank you for making your views clear, Jennifer. So let's recap. In your opinion:
Non-Jewish anti-Zionist = anti-Semite
Orthodox Jewish anti-Zionist = lunatic
Well, at least you don't mince words. The only thing I hope you will clarify is: does being opposed to a Palestinian state necessarily make one an anti-Arab racist? Is a Palestinian who supports the State of Israel necessarily a lunatic? Or do these things only work in one direction?
In any case, thank you for providing the link. As the article indicates, there are many anti-Zionist Jews who do not ally themselves with the Palestinians (though I am still unsure how being so allied would necessarily make one a "lunatic," but let that pass). As you evidently prefer more "moderate" anti-Zionists such as the members of Satmar, you will no doubt appreciate the comments of one of their Rav, Grand Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum:
"...it is our obligation to make it known in order that everyone should understand that the Zionists are not the nation of Israel...and it most definitely our holy obligation to announce before those nations of the world that the Zionists are not the spokespeople of the nation of Israel...it is a mitzvah (good deed) obligatory for each individual and group to protest and to proclaim with whichever means possible and to do everything within ones capability for the honor of the Lord which has been desecrated by the Zionists and one must protest at every occasion and at all times and at every place..."
<<I know you want to believe that the "good" religious
<<Jews are opposed to Israel because they don't
<<support secular Judaism but I'm afraid it's not true.
<<The strongest supporters of Israel in the US are the
<<Modern Orthodox.
I don't "want" to believe anything other than the truth, and the truth is that Zionism is a wholly secular ideology with no support in rabbinic Jewish tradition before the 19th century. This will not change no matter how loudly and how often some "Modern Orthodox" Jews say otherwise.
As for any group of people being "good," I tend to agree with my Solzhenitsyn that the "line between good and evil passes not through states, nor between political parties either - but right through every human heart."
<<So I take it you're moving then?
I won't play this game, Jennifer. The Americas are a lot further along in the process of conquest and subjugation than is Palestine/Israel, and what is feasible in one case may not be so in the other. In any case, I never said that all Jews should leave Palestine, or that the State of Israel should be entirely dismantled (though some Jews have). I have also never besought another nation to spend a great deal of tax-money defending my nation's sad treatment of its indigenous population, or my nations supposed "right to exist."
I get particularly annoyed when I see Christians and Jews defending Israel as if modern Jews had some kind of God-given right to establish a government there. Traditional Orthodox Jews and traditional Orthodox Christians, I think, can agree that this is not so, though for different reasons. Modernists in both groups, of course, are free to disagree.
<<BTW, are you concerned about the 800,000 Arab <<Jews expelled from Muslim countries?
I am of course concerned by injustice perpetrated against anyone, anywhere, but honestly I don't hold Muslim countries to the same standard as those countries which are supposed to be "western democracies." I also don't advocate foreign aid to those countries any more than I do for Israel.
<<I tell you what...when they're allowed to go home to
<<Egypt or Yemen, then the Palestinians can come
<<home too.
How very gracious of you.