• Please remember: Pray for Ukraine in the Prayer forum; Share news in the Christian News section; Discuss religious implications in FFA: Religious Topics; Discuss political implications in Politics (and if you don't have access, PM me) Thank you! + Fr. George, Forum Administrator

Weeping Icon at Chicago church thats going to be closed

CooperDog

Sr. Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2019
Messages
179
Reaction score
2
Points
0
Location
Illinois
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Midwest
https://abc13.com/community-events/crying-virgin-mary-attracts-crowds-as-historic-church-up-for-sale/5527885/

This is a blessing, Glory to God. We also cant overlook the timing of this blessed event. I pray that they save the church somehow.

I was so happy when i heard that last year an anonymous man pledged alot of money to save the church. But now, they are going to close. What is going on up there?
 

hecma925

Orthodox Taliban
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
21,477
Reaction score
1,380
Points
113
Age
161
Location
Wandering Fool
Faith
Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
Jurisdiction
Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Too many years of sub-par souvlaki sales.
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,557
Reaction score
260
Points
83
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
Immigrants usually start to move when they become financially stable.  This is clearly a situation like the Jeffersons . Moving on up. Problem is no more immigration from Greece and not enough converts to fill there shoes. It's kinda inevitable.
 

Saxon

High Elder
Joined
Sep 1, 2016
Messages
647
Reaction score
186
Points
43
Age
32
Location
Canada
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Discerning
The sale was approved. I saw the priest coyly speculating on why the Theotokos is crying. A safe bet is the industrial grade financial mismanagement of GOARCH right down to parish level.
 

admiralnick

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Messages
1,886
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
38
Location
Greater Milwaukee Area
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Serbian Orthodox Church - Midwest
Saxon said:
The sale was approved. I saw the priest coyly speculating on why the Theotokos is crying. A safe bet is the industrial grade financial mismanagement of GOARCH right down to parish level.
Ding Ding Ding WE HAVE A WINNER!

-Admiralnick
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,557
Reaction score
260
Points
83
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
Your not listening.  No mismanagement.  Greeks like other ethnic groups tend to move to the suburbs when they are financially stable.  What happens is they build new churches where they live. So the churches left behind do fall into dismay because the funding isn't there any longer.
 

Saxon

High Elder
Joined
Sep 1, 2016
Messages
647
Reaction score
186
Points
43
Age
32
Location
Canada
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Discerning
Tzimis said:
Your not listening.  No mismanagement.  Greeks like other ethnic groups tend to move to the suburbs when they are financially stable.  What happens is they build new churches where they live. So the churches left behind do fall into dismay because the funding isn't there any longer.
Greeks have long since relocated to the suburbs, like other Orthodox and Catholicos “ethnic” communities that have moved up the socioeconomic ladder in North America. Yet, most of those parishes aren’t closing. The problem with GOARCH is a lengthy and well-documented (use the search function on this forum) record of financial mismanagement, complemented by the tendency of Greeks to build gigantic and expensive churches that they cannot afford to maintain in the long run, relying on ethnic festivals, dance and language classes, and donations to pay the mortgage and property taxes. Again, they need to drop the ethnophyletism and “Hellenism” and start acting like a church, not an ethnic social club.
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,557
Reaction score
260
Points
83
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
Saxon said:
Tzimis said:
Your not listening.  No mismanagement.  Greeks like other ethnic groups tend to move to the suburbs when they are financially stable.  What happens is they build new churches where they live. So the churches left behind do fall into dismay because the funding isn't there any longer.
Greeks have long since relocated to the suburbs, like other Orthodox and Catholicos “ethnic” communities that have moved up the socioeconomic ladder in North America. Yet, most of those parishes aren’t closing. The problem with GOARCH is a lengthy and well-documented (use the search function on this forum) record of financial mismanagement, complemented by the tendency of Greeks to build gigantic and expensive churches that they cannot afford to maintain in the long run, relying on ethnic festivals, dance and language classes, and donations to pay the mortgage and property taxes. Again, they need to drop the ethnophyletism and “Hellenism” and start acting like a church, not an ethnic social club.
Hog wash. Churches are a non for profit and don't pay taxes.  The largest expense is heating,  upkeep of property and the priests salary. Unlike RC who have benefited from an influx of south Americans to continue funding these parishes.  Orthodoxy doesn't have that luxury.  So as communities move out there isn't viable candidates to fill them.
BTW: RC's are experiencing closure at an alarming rate.  Due to the laws sues being settled via the sale of prime real estate.
 

Saxon

High Elder
Joined
Sep 1, 2016
Messages
647
Reaction score
186
Points
43
Age
32
Location
Canada
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Discerning
Tzimis said:
Saxon said:
Tzimis said:
Your not listening.  No mismanagement.  Greeks like other ethnic groups tend to move to the suburbs when they are financially stable.  What happens is they build new churches where they live. So the churches left behind do fall into dismay because the funding isn't there any longer.
Greeks have long since relocated to the suburbs, like other Orthodox and Catholicos “ethnic” communities that have moved up the socioeconomic ladder in North America. Yet, most of those parishes aren’t closing. The problem with GOARCH is a lengthy and well-documented (use the search function on this forum) record of financial mismanagement, complemented by the tendency of Greeks to build gigantic and expensive churches that they cannot afford to maintain in the long run, relying on ethnic festivals, dance and language classes, and donations to pay the mortgage and property taxes. Again, they need to drop the ethnophyletism and “Hellenism” and start acting like a church, not an ethnic social club.
Hog wash. Churches are a non for profit and don't pay taxes.  The largest expense is heating,  upkeep of property and the priests salary. Unlike RC who have benefited from an influx of south Americans to continue funding these parishes.  Orthodoxy doesn't have that luxury.  So as communities move out there isn't viable candidates to fill them.
BTW: RC's are experiencing closure at an alarming rate.  Due to the laws sues being settled via the sale of prime real estate.
Several Greek parishes in my area have mixed-use zoning because there are community centres physically attached to them, meaning municipal taxes apply, and programs offered pay for the upkeep. When you get down to the third and fourth generations, as we are now, people of Greek ancestry are less interested in learning Greek language and dance. Other Orthodox jurisdictions in North America are growing, and the Greeks seem to be the exception. Start reaching out to converts and non-Greek Orthodox, who cares if they old yiayias don’t like English coming into the Liturgy.
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,557
Reaction score
260
Points
83
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
Saxon said:
Tzimis said:
Saxon said:
Tzimis said:
Your not listening.  No mismanagement.  Greeks like other ethnic groups tend to move to the suburbs when they are financially stable.  What happens is they build new churches where they live. So the churches left behind do fall into dismay because the funding isn't there any longer.
Greeks have long since relocated to the suburbs, like other Orthodox and Catholicos “ethnic” communities that have moved up the socioeconomic ladder in North America. Yet, most of those parishes aren’t closing. The problem with GOARCH is a lengthy and well-documented (use the search function on this forum) record of financial mismanagement, complemented by the tendency of Greeks to build gigantic and expensive churches that they cannot afford to maintain in the long run, relying on ethnic festivals, dance and language classes, and donations to pay the mortgage and property taxes. Again, they need to drop the ethnophyletism and “Hellenism” and start acting like a church, not an ethnic social club.
Hog wash. Churches are a non for profit and don't pay taxes.  The largest expense is heating,  upkeep of property and the priests salary. Unlike RC who have benefited from an influx of south Americans to continue funding these parishes.  Orthodoxy doesn't have that luxury.  So as communities move out there isn't viable candidates to fill them.
BTW: RC's are experiencing closure at an alarming rate.  Due to the laws sues being settled via the sale of prime real estate.
Several Greek parishes in my area have mixed-use zoning because there are community centres physically attached to them, meaning municipal taxes apply, and programs offered pay for the upkeep. When you get down to the third and fourth generations, as we are now, people of Greek ancestry are less interested in learning Greek language and dance. Other Orthodox jurisdictions in North America are growing, and the Greeks seem to be the exception. Start reaching out to converts and non-Greek Orthodox, who cares if they old yiayias don’t like English coming into the Liturgy.
I don't know about how other churches are run. All I can say is the church is a separate entity from schools and other organized events.  Sure the annual proceeds from the festival filters into the churchs confers.  Thats a given.
But most, if not all organizations within church property stand on there own.
 

augustin717

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
Messages
7,026
Reaction score
107
Points
63
Faith
Higher Criticism
Jurisdiction
Dutch
The fastest growing religion in the US lol. That’s what AFR was saying a decade ago.
 

hecma925

Orthodox Taliban
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
21,477
Reaction score
1,380
Points
113
Age
161
Location
Wandering Fool
Faith
Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
Jurisdiction
Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
augustin717 said:
The fastest growing religion in the US lol. That’s what AFR was saying a decade ago.
I always found it suspect.  How can America's best kept secret also be the fastest growing faith?
 

ttcmacro

Member
Joined
May 3, 2015
Messages
118
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
United States
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Antioch
Luckily we have our friends at Pulpit and Pen to set us straight on this:

https://pulpitandpen.org/2019/09/10/idolaters-flock-to-worship-a-crying-virgin-mary-in-chicago/

Their over the top commentary is always amusing.
 

Mor Ephrem

Hypatos
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 3, 2002
Messages
36,417
Reaction score
289
Points
83
Age
40
Location
New York!
Website
www.orthodoxchristianity.net
Faith
Mercenary Freudianism
Jurisdiction
Texas Feminist Coptic
ttcmacro said:
Luckily we have our friends at Pulpit and Pen to set us straight on this:

https://pulpitandpen.org/2019/09/10/idolaters-flock-to-worship-a-crying-virgin-mary-in-chicago/

Their over the top commentary is always amusing.
To confess Protestantism is to reject Christ.
 

augustin717

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
Messages
7,026
Reaction score
107
Points
63
Faith
Higher Criticism
Jurisdiction
Dutch
hecma925 said:
augustin717 said:
The fastest growing religion in the US lol. That’s what AFR was saying a decade ago.
I always found it suspect.  How can America's best kept secret also be the fastest growing faith?
it’s apophatic. Mystery solved.
 

Alpha60

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
5,793
Reaction score
16
Points
0
Location
Alphaville Zone Sud
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Orthodox
Tzimis said:
Your not listening.  No mismanagement.  Greeks like other ethnic groups tend to move to the suburbs when they are financially stable.  What happens is they build new churches where they live. So the churches left behind do fall into dismay because the funding isn't there any longer.
Actually it is a documented fact that GoArch membership is declining (fast) and the Archdiocese has become extremely financially unstable, bordering on bankruptcy.  Of course if they are like other churches the parishes should in many cases be financially independent, but the since according to Pew Research Group, GoArch is the fastest-shrinking Orthodox church, and I believe it also has the worst Sunday attendance (however, ACROD, which is also EP, has the best), and this is hitting the parishes hard.  The only really financially strong part of GoArch is the monastery system run by Elder Ephraim of Athos and Arizona.

It should be noted these problems appear confined to GoArch and are not afflicting ACROD or UOCNA, nor to my knowledge is the Greek Orthodox Church in general in trouble; although I would note the healthiest Greek church is probably the Church of Alexandria.  But as far as I am aware, the Greek Orthodox churches under the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Britain and Australia are making out alright.  So this post should not be interpreted as criticizing the Church of Constantinople at all; the problem here is GoArch, and the excellent performance of ACROD and even within GoArch the excellent liturgical performance, financial stability and breathtaking growth of the monasteries affiliated with Elder Ephraim the disciple of St. Joseph the Hesychast in Florence, AZ, show that the problem is confined to poor diocesan management on the part of some GoArch bishops, who at times seem to care more anout Hellenic culture than Orthodoxy, and who have allowed the Greek church in too many places to be hostile to converts and even other Orthodox. 

This was kind of satirized by the film My Big Fat Greek Wedding, which depicts the Greek Church as something only Greeks and a man who wants to marry a Grecian woman would be a part of; the film makes a mockery of baptism, by showing the fiance being baptized in a children’s inflatable swimming pool in front of the altar, and then depicts a Greek wedding as bizarre and incomprehensible, as the fiance’s mother tries to follow the service but gives up when her husband says “It’s Greek to me.” 

And there is tragically some truth in that biting satire, although I cannot condone it (Tom Hanks, who produced the film, joined the Greek Orthodox Church to marry a Greek woman and is a member of the splendid Cathedral on Pico St. in the Latin-Byzantine Quarter of Los Angeles (St. Demetrios, I think), which alas does a terrible job when it comes to the Divine Office and weekday liturgies. 

Las Vegas has a good Greek parish which does fill up on Sunday despite being very large, with a gracious priest and a robust schedule of services, even an annual Liturgy of St. James on his feast (October 23rd).  So there are some good GoArch parishes which are bucking the trend.
 

Eamonomae

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Jan 8, 2019
Messages
1,391
Reaction score
53
Points
48
Faith
Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction
Constantine's Lost Rome
Mor Ephrem said:
ttcmacro said:
Luckily we have our friends at Pulpit and Pen to set us straight on this:

https://pulpitandpen.org/2019/09/10/idolaters-flock-to-worship-a-crying-virgin-mary-in-chicago/

Their over the top commentary is always amusing.
To confess Protestantism is to reject Christ.
I don’t know if that’s 100% true. I’ve met some nice people in the LCMS, especially for those who were born and raised that way. Plus, why such arbitrariness? It seems you have implied in the past that Chalcedonians and some Roman Catholics have the Holy Spirit, so why a blanket condemnation of Protestantism as a whole?

But undeniably, there is this strand of both extreme ignorance and extreme arrogance that permeates through a large portion of so-called “Evangelical Christianity” which annoys the living hell out of me.
 

Samn!

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Sep 14, 2010
Messages
1,216
Reaction score
349
Points
83
Jurisdiction
Patriarchaat van Erps-Kwerps
Whelp, they got 2.5 million dollars for it... https://www.thenationalherald.com/260243/holy-trinity-in-chicago-second-oldest-greek-orthodox-church-in-u-s-sold-for-2-5-million/
 

hecma925

Orthodox Taliban
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
21,477
Reaction score
1,380
Points
113
Age
161
Location
Wandering Fool
Faith
Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
Jurisdiction
Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
I'm an ordained minister of the Universal Life Church.
 

IreneOlinyk

High Elder
Joined
Sep 28, 2009
Messages
930
Reaction score
18
Points
18
There is an official statement From the office of the Chicago Metropolitan about this icon dated Sept. 10th:

https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/comments/d2hlvj/a_statement_from_the_metropolis_of_chicago_on_the/

Sorry I cannot give you the Chicagogoarch website.  I can't seem to download on my computer.
 

hecma925

Orthodox Taliban
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
21,477
Reaction score
1,380
Points
113
Age
161
Location
Wandering Fool
Faith
Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
Jurisdiction
Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
IreneOlinyk said:
There is an official statement From the office of the Chicago Metropolitan about this icon dated Sept. 10th:

https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/comments/d2hlvj/a_statement_from_the_metropolis_of_chicago_on_the/

Sorry I cannot give you the Chicagogoarch website.  I can't seem to download on my computer.
The Metropolis of Chicago link:

http://chicago.goarch.org/news/statement-regarding-the-icon-of-the-virgin-mary-in-the-holy-trinity-greek-orthodox-church

http://chicago.goarch.org/news/statement-regarding-the-future-of-holy-trinity-greek-orthodox-church
 

Saxon

High Elder
Joined
Sep 1, 2016
Messages
647
Reaction score
186
Points
43
Age
32
Location
Canada
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Discerning
Aren’t there plenty of wealthy Greeks in the Chicago area who could have bailed that church out?
 

hecma925

Orthodox Taliban
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
21,477
Reaction score
1,380
Points
113
Age
161
Location
Wandering Fool
Faith
Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
Jurisdiction
Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Saxon said:
Aren’t there plenty of wealthy Greeks in the Chicago area who could have bailed that church out?
They couldn't promise to make them all Archons.
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,557
Reaction score
260
Points
83
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
Lets pray for a solution. LHM!
 

hecma925

Orthodox Taliban
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
21,477
Reaction score
1,380
Points
113
Age
161
Location
Wandering Fool
Faith
Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
Jurisdiction
Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Tzimis said:
Lets pray for a solution. LHM!
The solution has already been found.
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,557
Reaction score
260
Points
83
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
We don't want ULC's stepping foot on sacred grounds.
 

hecma925

Orthodox Taliban
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
21,477
Reaction score
1,380
Points
113
Age
161
Location
Wandering Fool
Faith
Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
Jurisdiction
Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Tzimis said:
We don't want ULC's stepping foot on sacred grounds.
You got 3 million to pay them off?
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,557
Reaction score
260
Points
83
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
hecma925 said:
Tzimis said:
We don't want ULC's stepping foot on sacred grounds.
You got 3 million to pay them off?
The figure is 1.6 and im sure someone will pop up.
 

LizaSymonenko

Hoplitarches
Staff member
Global Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
16,704
Reaction score
653
Points
113
Location
Detroit
Website
uocofusa.org
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
...but, it is already sold.

I believe someone did donate a huge amount a few years ago... but, the funds were not allocated wisely.
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,557
Reaction score
260
Points
83
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
Thats not necessarily true. Under Obama one cant be forced to vacate until 3.5 years.
 

hecma925

Orthodox Taliban
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
21,477
Reaction score
1,380
Points
113
Age
161
Location
Wandering Fool
Faith
Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
Jurisdiction
Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Tzimis said:
Thats not necessarily true. Under Obama one cant be forced to vacate until 3.5 years.
This isn't a house.  And the church was way down the foreclosure and bankruptcy (2 completely different things) processes to do anything.
 

hecma925

Orthodox Taliban
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
21,477
Reaction score
1,380
Points
113
Age
161
Location
Wandering Fool
Faith
Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
Jurisdiction
Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Tzimis said:
hecma925 said:
Tzimis said:
We don't want ULC's stepping foot on sacred grounds.
You got 3 million to pay them off?
The figure is 1.6 and im sure someone will pop up.
ULC bought the church for 2.5 mil.
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,557
Reaction score
260
Points
83
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP

Ainnir

Taxiarches
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
7,998
Reaction score
1,089
Points
113
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Antiochian
I'm pretty sure those icons are painted/written directly on the walls...how is that handled?  :(
 

JTLoganville

High Elder
Joined
Jan 19, 2015
Messages
848
Reaction score
196
Points
43
Location
Pennsylvania
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Greek Orthodox
Ainnir said:
I'm pretty sure those icons are painted/written directly on the walls...how is that handled?  :(
Many Icons which appear to be painted/written directly on walls, vaults, domes, and ceilings are in fact written on heavy gauge canvas which is then applied to the surface using techniques similar to installing wallpaper.

Removal is tedious and time consuming but it can--and certainly SHOULD--be done.
 

hecma925

Orthodox Taliban
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
21,477
Reaction score
1,380
Points
113
Age
161
Location
Wandering Fool
Faith
Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
Jurisdiction
Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
JTLoganville said:
Ainnir said:
I'm pretty sure those icons are painted/written directly on the walls...how is that handled?  :(
Many Icons which appear to be painted/written directly on walls, vaults, domes, and ceilings are in fact written on heavy gauge canvas which is then applied to the surface using techniques similar to installing wallpaper.

Removal is tedious and time consuming but it can--and certainly SHOULD--be done.
Depends on the church's budget.  If you have a lot of money, like this parish once had; you're not wasting your time on canvas.
 

platypus

High Elder
Joined
Apr 20, 2018
Messages
713
Reaction score
6
Points
0
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Orthodox Church in America
ttcmacro said:
Luckily we have our friends at Pulpit and Pen to set us straight on this:

https://pulpitandpen.org/2019/09/10/idolaters-flock-to-worship-a-crying-virgin-mary-in-chicago/

Their over the top commentary is always amusing.
It blows my mind the lengths they go to avoid learning the teachings of the faiths they decry. Surely, in conducting research for such an article, they must have run across an orthodox Christian or orthodox website that could tell them the basic teachings of the Church. But no, that's apparently far too much to ask.

This Sunday, they'll go worship their Jack Chick statue while singing hyms to Martin Luther and standing on one leg. I'd like them to prove me wrong without speaking to me, getting me to read their material, or having me go to their church.

 

123abc

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2017
Messages
79
Reaction score
3
Points
8
Location
Jersey
Faith
Anglican
Mor Ephrem said:
ttcmacro said:
Luckily we have our friends at Pulpit and Pen to set us straight on this:

https://pulpitandpen.org/2019/09/10/idolaters-flock-to-worship-a-crying-virgin-mary-in-chicago/

Their over the top commentary is always amusing.
To confess Protestantism is to reject Christ.
Quite the contrary.
 
Top