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Western Rite - Pictures & Videos

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I could care less for statues (not to say I dislike them). But I can not undo the decision of my ancestors...to a certain extent I accept what is and live with it, therefore if they are there and symbolize an important saint, I'm obliged to venerate them as would anyone else. I like the western rite of orthodoxy because it has less and often no statues, but I recognize and respect some exceptions. I prefer images over statues personally. yet a parish, like a culture, it is a delicate thing, it can only take so much change.

I trust that God allowed these statues to be there, despite my own limited interest in that form of expression.
I do not think I can "play God".
 

LBK

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Christopher McAvoy said:
The Western Church never recognized the 102 disciplinary canons of this council, although later statements by some of the bishops of Rome, notably Popes Constantine and Hadrian I, seem to show an acceptance that could be summed up as expressed by Pope John VII: that he accepted all those canons which did not contradict the true faith, good morals, and decrees of Rome. The Orthodox Churches consider this council as ecumenical and adds its canons to the decrees of the Fifth and Sixth Councils.
I wonder what the old Orthodox Pope John VII would have said to you about that, LBK.
Does not the church of Rome accept the Quinisext Council? If it does, it's blithely ignored Canon 82, which sowed the seeds of the eventual estrangement of western religious art with the traditions, liturgical and canonical, of iconography.

I stand by what I write on iconography, even if it causes discomfort to some.
 
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I admit more canons on images (and statues) is needed in the west. The degree of variety that exists within it is a bit overwhelming, there has been far too much individual innovation from particular artists.  Trullo's iconography canons are generally good. I only think/wish an exception could be made in its strictness against newly made images of the Agnus Dei, within the Latin rite only. To a certain extent I believe it was an unfortunate turn of history that the latin church deviated in it's art and architecture from it's old roman/syrian/hellenic roots. Some will say gothic architecture is great, and uniquely western. I sympathize with this view. Perhaps..but perhaps also it reflects some purely carolingian scholastic cultural ideas. Gothic architecture never totally dominated Italy, so at least Italy is truer to it's roots in fresco and mosaic.

I am glad you have principles you stand by.  ;D
 

LBK

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Christopher McAvoy said:
I could care less for statues (not to say I dislike them). But I can not undo the decision of my ancestors...to a certain extent I accept what is and live with it. I like the western rite of orthodoxy because it has less and often no statues, but I recognize and respect some exceptions. A parish is a delicate thing, it can only take so much change.

I trust that God allowed these statues to be there, despite my own limited interest in that form of expression.
I do not think I can "play God".
Nobody can undo the errors of our ancestors, and many were made in genuine and honest ignorance. However, when we have the knowledge of what is true and proper, pleading "cultural ties" is a hollow argument for the perpetuation of error.

Do not think that I am unaware of the power of sentimental ties with what is familiar. Over the years, I have spent much time and effort in educating individuals and groups (including clergy  :eek: ) on the whys and wherefores of proper iconography. I have even been approached by iconographers for advice. It takes much time, effort and patience, but changing hearts and minds is not impossible. Difficult, but not impossible.
 

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LBK said:
Does not the church of Rome accept the Quinisext Council?
It's my understanding that the Church of Rome never accepted Trullo etc., and those few Western individuals/churches that were favorable toward it were just that - few, and temporary.
 

LBK

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Christopher McAvoy said:
I admit more canons on images (and statues) is needed in the west.
The West did not need "more canons". Those from the Quinisext was quite sufficient, but the west chose to not implement them.

The degree of variety that exists within it is a bit overwhelming, there has been far too much individual innovation from particular artists.
See above. When religious art became subservient to artistic creativity, esthetics, and the demands of patrons, instead of being a reflection and proclamation of Church teaching, what do you expect?

I only think/wish an exception could be made in its strictness against newly made images of the Agnus Dei, within the Latin rite only.
Why? Should Canon 82 be trumped for cultural sentimentality?

 

Nephi

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LBK said:
The West did not need "more canons". Those from the Quinisext was quite sufficient, but the west chose to not implement them.
Since the entire Council of Trullo seems to have been little more than an exercise in Byzantine triumphalism, which is certainly how almost all of the Latin West perceived it at the time and forever after, it's no surprise they never implemented its canons.

In fact, wasn't Trullo around the time that Rome and Constantinople started having an endless tit-for-tat struggle over whose traditions were better? Eventually culminating three centuries later with the active Latinizing of Southern Italy and Byzantinizing of Constantinople's Latins.
 

podkarpatska

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Like probably thirty percent of all.North American Orthodox Christians today, my ancestors in Europe were pious, faithful Eastern Catholics for centuries. They didn't wake up one day and say, "Yurko, let's stop being Pravoslavs  today and submit to that Pope guy in Rome.  " "OK, Vasil, sounds  good to me."  Nor did the reverse occur in the late 19th through middle 20th centuries when a crisis in faith caused a large shift to return to Orthodoxy.

I mention this because all of my life I've put up with the well intentioned (I presume) but tone deaf proclamations of "This or THAT is not Orthodox  -enough!" Churches came over to Orthodoxy from the Unia intact, many with tiered altars and new ones, built as the faithful remembered them from Europe , often as a labor of love, by simple hard working people who not only chose to leave family and parishes they built twenty years before. They weren't retrofitted to.meet some arbitrary schedule.

To say it was disheartening for them to hear other Orthodox stand and condescendingly judge them as being "inferior" or not really Orthodox is an understatement. Like it or not, that attitude hardened feelings for generations and has much to do with our continuing  lack of unity today in North America.

First Communion morphed into First Confession as a familial and cultural rite of passage. New facilities built across the OCA, ACROD and the UOCUSA reflected a correct vision of culture and faith as the people's understanding of why and how blossomed. Service books were gradually brought into compliance with Orthodox norms.

Thousands though who came to Orthodoxy but who were discouraged and disgusted by the unwelcoming "embrace" of the naysayers gave up and returned to the Greek Catholic faith.

Thanks be to God for wise and patient leaders like Patriarch Athenagoras, Archbishop Iakovas and the Metropolia' s Metropolitan Leonty and others, including hard working priests (who had to learn and adapt at the same time they led) who had the wisdom to know that Rome wasn't built in a day and a teaching patience would bear fruit in future generations.

Leave these people be to the pastoral counsel of their God fearing priests and Bishops as they learn to know and love Orthodoxy. Stop being like BOTH the Latinizing Romans and the judgmental Orthodox who played the role of the Pharisees in my story. Give them a break.

Also, in Slavic, non Russian tradition floral adornment of churches, including altar areas, is a small t tradition through the Carpathian lands including Romanian, Rusyn, Lemko,Slovak  and Ukrainian Christians - both Orthodox and Eastern Catholic. Likewise one will find ornate hand embroidered vestments and altar covers with both floral and geometric regional patterning in such communities as well.

I wasn't going to comment, but you all struck a raw nerve.
 

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Maybe this comment is slightly random, but I will make it anyway.

Personally, too many Orthodox Catholic churches which adopt an occidental liturgy look Eastern in both look and feel. I understand that these parishes often have few resources, but the Western rite is in severe need of liturgical renewal and beautification.

I have a deep and profound love of icons, do understand that. I carry a small one portraying the events of Whitsunday (Pentecost) in my pocket every day without fail. However, the practice of iconography is foreign to the West, and therefore, I am not too sure as to the role icons can or should have in Western liturgies. What needs to be enriched and cultivated is the usage of traditional Western liturgical elements such as chant in all its forms, the organ, and hymns. Let the Western use churches celebrate what is part of their cultural patrimony. That means allowing statues, correct colour liturgical vestments (blue used liturgically in the West during Advent only, not on feasts of the Blessed Virgin like in the East), and stopping Byzantisations.
 

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Apparently "Western" equates with "post-reformation Roman Catholicism". Which is of course a fairly silly idea. Icons have always been part of Western christianity whereas wide use of statues are of more recent origin.
 

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Alpo said:
Apparently "Western" equates with "post-reformation Roman Catholicism". Which is of course a fairly silly idea. Icons have always been part of Western christianity whereas wide use of statues are of more recent origin.
It hasn't been for quite some time, and until I discovered Orthodox Catholicism, icons were foreign to me. Icons, to put it plain and simple, have no place in traditional Western liturgical worship, or at least have not for some time. Icons are very much Eastern, not Western. Maybe it's my liturgical taste, but icons and the West seem to be things that have no relationship to one another.
 

Alpo

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You might be suprised if you made a pilgrimage to, say, Spain and Italy. Or frankly any other European country.

 

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Alpo said:
You might be suprised if you made a pilgrimage to, say, Spain and Italy. Or frankly any other Southern European country.
There are two icons, one of the Theotokos and one of Christ, in Westminster Abbey in London. Icons are beautiful, indeed so, but if they are to be used in the Western churches, I would like to see them incorporated smartly into the design of the church, not placed on the choir screen so as to recreate an iconostasis. Anything of substance that can adore the sacraments with beauty should be explored, whether it be a mass setting by Schubert, stain glass, hymns, or a cantata by Bach.

On that note, is there an iconography tradition that is organically Western in nature?
 

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I think all of the Catholic churches I've attended have had some degree of icons, even if the laity may just think they're decorative pictures.

Most Catholic parishes have some sort of setup like this:


A FSSP church in OH:
 

Nephi

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Jules_Grant said:
Oh, those are considered icons? There is a Western iconographic tradition!



I would think this stricter in appearance, but it seems to be of the type of design the Orthodox Catholic Church would prefer.
I don't know about the style of that icon in particular, but I've read that the Antiochian Archdiocese has deemed Romanescque icons to be the preferred style of Western Rite parishes. Do a Google search for "Romanesque icons" and you'll see quite a few examples, modern and ancient.
 

podkarpatska

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When in Rome two years ago, my brother was amazed at the number of pre-schism Roman basilicas and neighborhood churches with extant examples of first millenium iconography - where it was preserved as a tradition from prior to that of the eastern iconoclasts.

Commissioned in the ninth century, here is one 9th century apse mosaic commissioned by Pope Paschal I in the Church of Santa Maria in Domnica in Rome :

 

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LBK said:
Maria said:
LBK said:
Don't forget that there are a lot of inter-faith marriages between Roman Catholics & Orthodox.
How does this affect Orthodox liturgical practice? More to the point, why should it affect Orthodox liturgical practice?
Well, I have heard some of the "Roman Catholic godparents" say that they are going to take their godchild to the Catholic Church for their First Confession and First Communion. And then we tell this RC Godparent that the child has just received Baptism, Chrismation, and First Holy Communion as an Orthodox Christian. And their response: "Well they should still participate in the First Communion Ceremony, like a coming of age ceremony."   :eek:

::)
Which has precisely no bearing on proper Orthodox liturgical practice, and neither should it. The honest ignorance of certain people should never trump what is right and proper.
What is "right and proper" has varied widely from time to time and from place to place.  It doesn't make sense to absolutize current Byzantine practice as normative for all Orthodox.  East and West have both changed a great deal over time, including pre-schism time.
 
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As a student of art history, I assure everyone that the latin rite art and architecture from the years 300 AD to 1200 AD was consistently unified and similar, as far as the prototypes. The only way it which it has diversity was through localized variation which occured mostly because of the different tribes that had invaded and conquered the western roman empire. This means that "insular" or so-called barbaric , more primitive artistic expression existed with also the more refined late antique roman/hellenic influence, which never disappeared in Italy.


It lacked profound diversity. between 950 and 1200 statues became known, but for veneration purposes, it was rare to find very many in a single church until later. Athough after 1150 in the early stages of gothic/norman architecture the use of 3d statuary for decorative purposes came to be more common.

While I sympathise that iconography and images of the latin west from the earlier middle ages are often not known to the average person in the united states in anglican or roman catholic churches, they did in fact once exist more prominently .
Yes the west and western iconography was always unique and always different than the east, but not in such a profound way, not in such a drastic way as perhaps it became in the later middle ages and present age. So yes, a distinct latin rite iconography that is ancient is worth reviving. It is easy to find examples from the past and it compliments byzantine traditions quite nicely, even if it is not always neatly canonical or perfectly according to councils such as trullo, it is historically what was used. All westerners owe it to themselves to have more familiarity if they are so priviledged with time or resources/.


The entry of Jesus into Jerusalem - L'Epistolario miniato di Giovanni da Gaibana, 1259 AD, (Padova, Italia)


The Entry into Jerusalem - Benedictional of St. Aethelwold (971-984 AD), f.45v - BL Add MS 49598 (England)


(same 13th c. italian MS as above)

(same 10th c. english ms as above)

Edited to re-size images.  Mor.
 

LBK

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It is easy to find examples from the past and it compliments byzantine traditions quite nicely, even if it is not always neatly canonical or perfectly according to councils such as trullo, it is historically what was used. All westerners owe it to themselves to have more familiarity if they are so priviledged with time or resources/.
As I said before, the presence of uncanonical imagery in pre-Trullo churches is a matter of history. Any "revival" must not include such imagery. Iconography is a matter of expressing proper doctrine. Period.
 

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Alpo said:
The latter seems very, very Latin. What's the background of the parish? Was it born as a WRO parish or did it convert from some other denomination?
It's a Spanish-language Cuban parish. This is patron saint feast day, so they process outside all around the neighborhood, with instruments and singing. It's a typical Latin parish, and these are their customs.
 

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ilyazhito said:
It's kind of odd to see clergy vested as Eastern Rite clergy in a Western Rite service! In one of the pictures by Nephi, a priest wears an epitrachelion, and a deacon and subdeacon are vested in the Eastern manner.
These are visiting clergy from the Miami area invited to attend the Parrish's patronal feast day. There was an outdoor procession, so they look like they were dressed appropriately
 

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Maria said:
Mor Ephrem said:
In the second photo, what's with the ripidia with bells?  How OO of them!  :)
What is going on with the band? Is that part of the procession?
Yes. It's done in Latino parishes. You see that a lot in Italy in some regions too.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
LBK said:
The "first communion" business on the second site is just wrong, wrong, wrong.
The caption on the photo says "First Confession and Communion", which, to me, doesn't necessarily imply "First Communion".  If the WRO have the same practice as the rest of the Orthodox re: communing infants and children, perhaps this is just a way of bringing in as much of a type of popular, cultural rite of passage as possible?
There is no first Communion at this or any AWRV parish. I went to this parish for a year, so I know.
 

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Alpo said:
I like the blue chasuble. It's beautiful.

Statues are not traditionally to be used liturgically. Nothing wrong with them otherwise but IMO they shouldn't have any liturgical function.
Blue is used on Marian feast days, like this one. Russians blue too on those feast days. When I was at St. Nicholas OCA Cathedral in DC, they used blue for Dormition.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Reader KevinAndrew said:
There is no first Communion at this or any AWRV parish. I went to this parish for a year, so I know.
Excellent, I figured this was the case.  
 

Alpo

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Reader KevinAndrew said:
Alpo said:
I like the blue chasuble. It's beautiful.

Statues are not traditionally to be used liturgically. Nothing wrong with them otherwise but IMO they shouldn't have any liturgical function.
Blue is used on Marian feast days, like this one.
That seems more like turquoise than blue. Not that there would be anything wrong with turquoise but that caught my attention. I haven't seen turquoise vestments before this.
 

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Alpo said:
Reader KevinAndrew said:
Alpo said:
I like the blue chasuble. It's beautiful.

Statues are not traditionally to be used liturgically. Nothing wrong with them otherwise but IMO they shouldn't have any liturgical function.
Blue is used on Marian feast days, like this one.
That seems more like turquoise than blue. Not that there would be anything wrong with turquoise but that caught my attention. I haven't seen turquoise vestments before this.
It's blue enough. Most small places like this take what they can get.
 

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Reader KevinAndrew said:
Alpo said:
The latter seems very, very Latin. What's the background of the parish? Was it born as a WRO parish or did it convert from some other denomination?
It's a Spanish-language Cuban parish. This is patron saint feast day, so they process outside all around the neighborhood, with instruments and singing. It's a typical Latin parish, and these are their customs.
One of the few books I enjoyed reading last semester was on Hispanic spirituality/theology (with nice detail of Holy Week practices), so I think it's great seeing such a sight in a AWRV parish.
 

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There is a Hispanic spirituality? ???
 

Nephi

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Alpo said:
There is a Hispanic spirituality? ???
Well, compared to American Catholics, they have a very distinct religious culture that shows from their homes, to how they celebrate feast days, to their processions, Holy Week observances, etc. St. Juan Diego and his interactions with Our Lady of Guadalupe have a significant importance for Hispanic Catholic practice and theology, although I'm not sure how much this would carry over into the AWRV.
 

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Alpo said:
There is a Hispanic spirituality? ???
Well, St. James DID evangelize the Iberian peninsula and his relics are at Santiago de Compostella. This spirituality has its roots in Spain.
 

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Reader KevinAndrew said:
Alpo said:
There is a Hispanic spirituality? ???
Well, St. James DID evangelize the Iberian peninsula and his relics are at Santiago de Compostella. This spirituality has its roots in Spain.
I fail to understand what this has to do with my question. Please elaborate.

Also, please note that I'm not criticizing the idea of Hispanic spirituality. I just don't understand it what it means.
 

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Alpo said:
Reader KevinAndrew said:
Alpo said:
There is a Hispanic spirituality? ???
Well, St. James DID evangelize the Iberian peninsula and his relics are at Santiago de Compostella. This spirituality has its roots in Spain.
I fail to understand what this has to do with my question. Please elaborate.

Also, please note that I'm not criticizing the idea of Hispanic spirituality. I just don't understand it what it means.
I guess not. There has been Hispanic spirituality since apostolic times was my point. An apostle buried in Spain, for crying out loud. The things previously described are the direct descendants of that spirituality. So I guess I fail to understand what your "Hispanic spirituality????" means. I was pointing that it's been around since almost time that there was even a Church.
 

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Reader KevinAndrew said:
Alpo said:
I fail to understand what this has to do with my question. Please elaborate.

Also, please note that I'm not criticizing the idea of Hispanic spirituality. I just don't understand it what it means.
I guess not. There has been Hispanic spirituality since apostolic times was my point. An apostle buried in Spain, for crying out loud. The things previously described are the direct descendants of that spirituality. So I guess I fail to understand what your "Hispanic spirituality????" means. I was pointing that it's been around since almost time that there was even a Church.
I think Alpo just wonders what is distinct enough about Hispanic spirituality to speak of it separately from other forms of spirituality. I.e., what makes "Hispanic spirituality" different from just "Catholic spirituality" or something along those lines.
 

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Nephi said:
Reader KevinAndrew said:
Alpo said:
I fail to understand what this has to do with my question. Please elaborate.

Also, please note that I'm not criticizing the idea of Hispanic spirituality. I just don't understand it what it means.
I guess not. There has been Hispanic spirituality since apostolic times was my point. An apostle buried in Spain, for crying out loud. The things previously described are the direct descendants of that spirituality. So I guess I fail to understand what your "Hispanic spirituality????" means. I was pointing that it's been around since almost time that there was even a Church.
I think Alpo just wonders what is distinct enough about Hispanic spirituality to speak of it separately from other forms of spirituality. I.e., what makes "Hispanic spirituality" different from just "Catholic spirituality" or something along those lines.
Makes sense. Thanks, Nephi
 
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