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Western Rite spreads to Rue Daru and OCA

WR-News

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According to a recent post on their site, it looks like the Rue Daru, also known as the Archdiocese of Parishes of Russian Tradition in Western Europe (MP) has received two WR clergy and three parishes/missions into their UK Deanery, seemingly from ROCOR's WR. I think that this their first foray into WR.

A previously reported WR mission in the OCA, Christ the King in Edmonton, Canada, has recently been re-established by OCA decree.


***Despite my username, I'm not affiliated with ROCOR or WR, although I have an interest in the latter. I run this account on behalf of its previous incumbent who is actually a monk in ROCOR now. Therefore, I cannot fill in the blanks regarding the ongoing situation with ROCOR/Rue Daru in the UK.
 

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This looks like the Sorouzh schism in retarded.
Ironically, Bp Irenei was very vocally, and in print, a strong partisan of the EP during that controversy.
 

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So let me get this straight: Archpriest Andrew Phillips, who is know by many in North America by his website: Orthodox England and, who from my reading of his many articles was an "uber" supporter of ROCOR, has tried to leave ROCOR (with others) to join the Moscow Patriarchate (the Mother Church of ROCOR)? If so, what is this all about????
 

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So let me get this straight: Archpriest Andrew Phillips, who is know by many in North America by his website: Orthodox England and, who from my reading of his many articles was an "uber" supporter of ROCOR, has tried to leave ROCOR (with others) to join the Moscow Patriarchate (the Mother Church of ROCOR)? If so, what is this all about????
He and some other clergy left to join the Rue Daru jurisdiction under the MP. On the basis of public statements, part of the problem is that Bp Irenei refuses to recognize the reception by vesting of a formerly Ukrainian Catholic priest into the Rue Daru jurisdiction and this has led to or compounded unspecified further conflict between the two jurisdictions and between Bp Irenei and his own clergy.
 

Katechon

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Ironically, Bp Irenei was very vocally, and in print, a strong partisan of the EP during that controversy.
Well, the issue at hand with the Sorouzh schism seemed a lot more grave than just the mode of reception of some "Eastern Catholic" clergyman.
And ironically, the now suspended by ROCOR Archpriest Andrew Phillips has been one of the sharpest and most vocal critics of Rue Daru in general and the Sorouzh schism in particular. This is so silly.
 

BasilCan

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To clarify a bit more and correct me if I am wrong..
1) Bp Irenai is the Bishop of the Russian Orthodox Church of the British Isles, that is an amalgamation of the previous ROCOR diocese and the Moscow Patriarchate Diocese of Britain also known as Sorouzh.
2) Rue Daru is the old jurisdiction of Russian Orthodox Churches that were under Constantiople but have since left to join the Russian Orthodox Church
3) Both "jurisdictions" are separate but report to the Moscow Patriarch.
Did I get this right?
If so, do both not have the same rules and guidelines on receiving converts etc?
 

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He and some other clergy left to join the Rue Daru jurisdiction under the MP. On the basis of public statements, part of the problem is that Bp Irenei refuses to recognize the reception by vesting of a formerly Ukrainian Catholic priest into the Rue Daru jurisdiction and this has led to or compounded unspecified further conflict between the two jurisdictions and between Bp Irenei and his own clergy.
Why? Fr Gabriel Bunge was received by vesting. That is the way the MP does it.
 

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To clarify a bit more and correct me if I am wrong..
1) Bp Irenai is the Bishop of the Russian Orthodox Church of the British Isles, that is an amalgamation of the previous ROCOR diocese and the Moscow Patriarchate Diocese of Britain also known as Sorouzh.
ROCOR and the diocese of Sourozh are still separate. In fact, Sourozh has its own Bishop based in London - Bishop Matthew.
3) Both "jurisdictions" are separate but report to the Moscow Patriarch.
Did I get this right?
Yes, that's right.
If so, do both not have the same rules and guidelines on receiving converts etc?
It would appear not.
 

augustin717

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Why? Fr Gabriel Bunge was received by vesting. That is the way the MP does it.
when the Romanian Greek Catholic were forced to become orthodox they weren’t even received by vesting, let alone chrismation, they were accepted as clergy by signing some papers .
 

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when the Romanian Greek Catholic were forced to become orthodox they weren’t even received by vesting, let alone chrismation, they were accepted as clergy by signing some papers .
Same in Ukraine and Slovakia.
 

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Why? Fr Gabriel Bunge was received by vesting. That is the way the MP does it.
That's the standard MP practice for Catholic clergy. They also, at least sometimes, still receive Catholic laity by confession of faith, which was long their official practice and may still be on paper. But ROCOR is still very independent from the MP in both its mentality and its day-to-day operation. I think it will be a long time before they fully shake the unfortunate influence of the Greek Old Calendarists.
 

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That's the standard MP practice for Catholic clergy. They also, at least sometimes, still receive Catholic laity by confession of faith, which was long their official practice and may still be on paper. But ROCOR is still very independent from the MP in both its mentality and its day-to-day operation. I think it will be a long time before they fully shake the unfortunate influence of the Greek Old Calendarists.
Mhm those MP practices are rooted in the Russian state's Ecumenistic desires of the synodal period however. I see things like "corrective" baptism of already received converts as an abuse, but atleast chrismation has been the ecumenical praxis since the failure of Florence if I am not mistaken.

It is noteworthy however that the Orthodox Church venerates atleast one clergyman received by vesting as a saint, namely St Alexis Toth.
 

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Mhm those MP practices are rooted in the Russian state's Ecumenistic desires of the synodal period however. I see things like "corrective" baptism of already received converts as an abuse, but atleast chrismation has been the ecumenical praxis since the failure of Florence if I am not mistaken.

It is noteworthy however that the Orthodox Church venerates atleast one clergyman received by vesting as a saint, namely St Alexis Toth.
It's also related to the issue of what to do when you have the occasion to receive large numbers of returning Uniates. So far as I can tell, the policy of receiving (at least Uniate) Catholics by profession of faith goes back at least to Peter Mogila.
 

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He and some other clergy left to join the Rue Daru jurisdiction under the MP. On the basis of public statements, part of the problem is that Bp Irenei refuses to recognize the reception by vesting of a formerly Ukrainian Catholic priest into the Rue Daru jurisdiction and this has led to or compounded unspecified further conflict between the two jurisdictions and between Bp Irenei and his own clergy.
Samn can you please provide a link to the "public statements" you mentioned above?
 

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Samn can you please provide a link to the "public statements" you mentioned above?
 

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Samn can you please provide a link to the "public statements" you mentioned above?
What Katechon linked, and then from the ROCOR side:
 

IreneOlinyk

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What Katechon linked, and then from the ROCOR side:
OK I guess I have not been clear in what I am asking you for:
In response to an announcement personally circulated in a public manner on the internet by Archpriest Andrew Phillips, containing a host of false information and announcing a personal schism from the Church,
Where is the link to Fr. Andrew's internet site on which he states he is leaving because of a Catholic priest received into the Orthodox Church "by vesting."
 

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Where is the link to Fr. Andrew's internet site on which he states he is leaving because of a Catholic priest received into the Orthodox Church "by vesting."
That was privately circulated. I've had it forwarded to me in an email and I think it went around on Facebook. He isn't leaving ROCOR because of a Catholic priest being received by vesting: he evidently left because of a series of problems that either started or came to a head after Bp Irenei forbid his priests from recognizing the priest who converted as being Orthodox, which obviously caused major problems with Rue Daru. That's alluded to in the Rue Daru statement linked above: "This started with the reception and ordination of a former Catholic priest by concelebration."
 

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So Bishop Irenei of ROCOR is out of step with MP. Seems like this sort of thing would have been hammered out when ROCOR went back under MP.
 

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I believe the larger effort is to have a Russian Church-wide review of its historical policies, which is a good thing, because circumstances have changed.

As for receiving Eastern Catholics, even baptism was employed at various times and places.

Term removed. --Ainnir
 
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Okay, back to the issue here..... There must be much more to the story besides Father Andrew being upset about the Bp Irenei banning him from concelebrating with another priest. Father Andrew was "uber" ROCOR and very critical of all other jurisdictions, especially Rue Daru. Can someone enlighten us more on this?
 

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Moral of the story: don't be uber critical or even miniscule critical. Be gracious and loving and hopeful in Gods grace in people's lives! Judge not lest ye be judged kind of thing.
 

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Moral of the story: don't be uber critical or even miniscule critical. Be gracious and loving and hopeful in Gods grace in people's lives! Judge not lest ye be judged kind of thing.
Be careful that you not judge the soul of people that are "critical" as you refer to them.
 

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Discerning poor behavior is not the same thing as judging someone’s soul. Thank God.
 

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Father Andrew was "uber" ROCOR and very critical of all other jurisdictions, especially Rue Daru.
Be careful that you not judge the soul of people that are "critical" as you refer to them.
I judge no one. I don't even know who all these people are nor their differences and jot and tittles in their churches. It seems that a cantankerous, hateful, devisive spirit that rejoices in others falling must take heed lest they also fall. We love and hope for all to be saved. Even you. Even me. Lord have mercy on this sinner.
 

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This would posted yesterday by the ROCOR In Cardiff Wales. It looks like the problem has not be resolved by Moscow,

Parish of the Kazan Icon of the Mother of God in Cardiff



The Russian Orthodox Church

Clarification regarding suspension and on-line prayers

Posted on September 11, 2021 by Hieromonk Mark

Dear brothers and sisters,

After some confusion regarding the suspension of clerics, and their subsequent activities, it seems necessary to clarify the situation.

A cleric who is suspended is banned for all ministry in whatever rank of the clerical order they occupy.

If they serve under this suspension, this disobedience is a sin, and one in which the faithful must not participate.

It does not matter whether a banned cleric serves in a temple or private space, with broadcast and inclusion of others on-line via social media. Not being physically present, but taking part on-line, makes no difference. A ban is a ban, and no faithful of our parishes may have any liturgical interaction with a banned cleric.

This is very difficult, as some of our faithful now feel very isolated, having been accustomed to on-line akathist hymns, memorial services and molebny, that have preserved parish life, and have been a great consolation during lockdown and the uncertainty of the last year and a half.

However, for rebellion against the order and peace of the Church, for creating discord and division, clergy in Colchester and Cheltenham are suspended.

The faithful may not pray with them if they are disobeying the suspension, and their suspensions may only be lifted by His Grace, Bishop Irenei.

Let us all pray for peace and reconciliation, and let us be careful in not being drawn into the rebellion that has occured.

Spasi Gospodi – Fr Mark
 

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Okay, back to the issue here..... There must be much more to the story besides Father Andrew being upset about the Bp Irenei banning him from concelebrating with another priest. Father Andrew was "uber" ROCOR and very critical of all other jurisdictions, especially Rue Daru. Can someone enlighten us more on this?
Yes.

Fr Andrew's attitude towards ROCOR has always been more nuanced than your assessment would seem to suggest. He has been quite vocal in his opposition to some of the elements of ROCOR culture that seem to be remnants of its association with Greek Old Calendarism, which have never been universal within ROCOR but have been prevalent in some parts of it. This was evidenced in many of his addresses and public postings from around the time of the rapprochement and discussions leading up to it in 2006/7. ROCOR GBI was heavily influenced by this while it was cared for by Archimandrite Alexis of Brookwood.

Also, it is worth remembering that the current Western European Archdiocese of the Moscow Patriarchate is a rather different beast from the Rue Daru jurisdiction of 15 years ago, and that not all of the parishes or clergy transferred to the Moscow Patriarchate after the decision of the Ecumenical Patriarchate to dissolve the diocese in 2018.
 

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Mhm those MP practices are rooted in the Russian state's Ecumenistic desires of the synodal period however. I see things like "corrective" baptism of already received converts as an abuse, but atleast chrismation has been the ecumenical praxis since the failure of Florence if I am not mistaken.

It is noteworthy however that the Orthodox Church venerates atleast one clergyman received by vesting as a saint, namely St Alexis Toth.
A distinction can be made between RCs and ECs.
One issue with chrismation is that the Eastern Catholics perform Chrismation, but RCs do not. Thus it makes more sense to receive ECs (eg. St. Alexis Toth, or the current case in ROCOR UK's dispute: the EC convert to Orthodoxy, Fr. Jean) without rechrismation, as when large masses of clerical and lay Ukrainian ECs were received in past centuries even before Soviet times, compared to hypothetically receiving RCs without rechrismation.

So when you say that chrismation was the ecumenical practice after Florence, you need to specify if that practice definitely included a second, (ie. separate Orthodox) chrismation of Eastern Catholics in particular.
 

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So Bishop Irenei of ROCOR is out of step with MP. Seems like this sort of thing would have been hammered out when ROCOR went back under MP.
Yes, it seems that way, because vesting had already been the MP procedure.
 

Mor Ephrem

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A distinction can be made between RCs and ECs.
One issue with chrismation is that the Eastern Catholics perform Chrismation, but RCs do not. Thus it makes more sense to receive ECs (eg. St. Alexis Toth, or the current case in ROCOR UK's dispute: the EC convert to Orthodoxy, Fr. Jean) without rechrismation, as when large masses of clerical and lay Ukrainian ECs were received in past centuries even before Soviet times, compared to hypothetically receiving RCs without rechrismation.

So when you say that chrismation was the ecumenical practice after Florence, you need to specify if that practice definitely included a second, (ie. separate Orthodox) chrismation of Eastern Catholics in particular.
Roman Catholics practice chrismation.
 

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A distinction can be made between RCs and ECs.
One issue with chrismation is that the Eastern Catholics perform Chrismation, but RCs do not.
Yes they do, at least they do the form. They just put it at the end of adolescence.
 

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Being EC can be a very difficult thing indeed. As the priest in question who left the UGCC for the Archdiocese, I had been very much in the 'Orthodox in communion with Rome' camp, and said so publicly on many different fora. I came to realise, though, for a number of reasons both theological and functional, that being 'Orthodox in communion with Rome' gives you a lot of Rome, and only as much Orthodoxy as you can get away with.
Welcome to the thread, Father! Your blessing!

Sorry to have opened a can of worms here, I was only interested in spreading awareness of Western Rite.

Since you're here (and hopefully for a while) can you share some thoughts on how the regular clergy of the Rue Daru ("of Russian Tradition") are responding to having Western Rite parishes for the first time? Do you see this spreading to mainland Europe? Do the other clergy in the UK see it as a missionary opporunity?
 

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Sorry for the late reply, and thank you for the welcome!

The Rue Daru clergy here in the UK have proven to be a genuinely adaptive and welcoming bunch. Perhaps because the WR here in the UK has a track-record already, but whatever the case, I have not heard a word of negativity about the idea of the WR being together with us. That said, I expect that discerning how we can best work together in terms of serving the Gospel to the people of the UK will be a process, insofar as we use two different languages by which to communicate (by which I mean liturgical styles; not literal languages).

I, for one, welcome the opportunity to cultivate an increase of Orthodoxy among the people together with the WR. One thing I would like to see, though - and this is just a personal observation - is some rigorous critical liturgical/theological/historical scholarship specific to the WR, as so far, I have not encountered much. That is NOT to say that it doesn't exist, or that the liturgical work so far undertaken has been misguided; it is only to say that I think mission is always strengthened when it can look to a solid theological foundation. Does that make sense?
 

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Sorry for the late reply, and thank you for the welcome!

The Rue Daru clergy here in the UK have proven to be a genuinely adaptive and welcoming bunch. Perhaps because the WR here in the UK has a track-record already, but whatever the case, I have not heard a word of negativity about the idea of the WR being together with us. That said, I expect that discerning how we can best work together in terms of serving the Gospel to the people of the UK will be a process, insofar as we use two different languages by which to communicate (by which I mean liturgical styles; not literal languages).

I, for one, welcome the opportunity to cultivate an increase of Orthodoxy among the people together with the WR. One thing I would like to see, though - and this is just a personal observation - is some rigorous critical liturgical/theological/historical scholarship specific to the WR, as so far, I have not encountered much. That is NOT to say that it doesn't exist, or that the liturgical work so far undertaken has been misguided; it is only to say that I think mission is always strengthened when it can look to a solid theological foundation. Does that make sense?
Yes, I see what you're getting at. There's a few scholarly articles on the history of the Western Rite and its return to the Orthodox Church, but I see little 'liturgical theology' of the Western Rite in the way that we have commentaries on the Divine Liturgy by Fathers and contemporary theologians, the placing of the Divine Liturgy in its cosmic context by people like Fr. Alexander Schmemann, and mystical interpretations of the rites. The Byzantine rite has all of this and more, but if there's any of this kind of edifying theological interpretation of the Roman Rite being done by Orthodox, I haven't seen it, but would love to.
 

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Sorry for the late reply, and thank you for the welcome!

The Rue Daru clergy here in the UK have proven to be a genuinely adaptive and welcoming bunch. Perhaps because the WR here in the UK has a track-record already, but whatever the case, I have not heard a word of negativity about the idea of the WR being together with us. That said, I expect that discerning how we can best work together in terms of serving the Gospel to the people of the UK will be a process, insofar as we use two different languages by which to communicate (by which I mean liturgical styles; not literal languages).

I, for one, welcome the opportunity to cultivate an increase of Orthodoxy among the people together with the WR. One thing I would like to see, though - and this is just a personal observation - is some rigorous critical liturgical/theological/historical scholarship specific to the WR, as so far, I have not encountered much. That is NOT to say that it doesn't exist, or that the liturgical work so far undertaken has been misguided; it is only to say that I think mission is always strengthened when it can look to a solid theological foundation. Does that make sense?
After taking a gander at the Sarum Rite I tooled around the WR internet and read the Charter of ROCOR’s Vicariate
I would say millions of people worshipping Jesus Christ and working on their sanctification is an upside. Orthodox (or Latin) triumphalism is something that has no upside.
The history of the creation of the Unia is no comedy. The laypeople who had their confession warped by political and military force are not to blame. May they find sanctification despite the worst the world throws at them, particularly the worldly way faith is subverted by political force. But schism has a way of perpetuating itself and thus the majority of Uniates do not find their way back to their original confession of Orthodoxy. The repentance of their leaders who continue to bind them to Rome and deprive them of the ministration of their autochthonous churches would go a long way toward healing the schism from Orthodoxy, which is not merely a way of worshiping but also making present Christ at the level of Local Church. It is a lie to continue to present the Unia as Orthodoxy when it presents religious colonialism.
 
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