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What do the Eastern Orthodox think of the Novus Ordo Mass?

Gorazd

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Apotheoun,

I am not sure about Greek Catholics, but as Orthodox Christians, we emphasize Christ's divinity and humanity equally, we also emphasize the oneness of God and his three persons equally etc. and I think that is what all Christians should do.
 

Apples

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Sleeper said:
William said:
Sleeper said:
I'm not from St. Michael's, however my parish serves the Mass of St. Tikhon to which you are referring. It is definitely from the stream of Anglican's that do not identify as "Protestant." In fact, it is a direct descendant of the Scottish Non-Juror liturgy, a group that self-identified as the "catholick remnant of the British Isles" who held extensive discussions with the Orthodox Church about joining. The Mass of St. Tikhon is essentially the Tridentine Mass with certain elements from the Scottish Non-Juror tradition interpolated. It, along with the Mass of St. Gregory (essentially the Tridentine Mass in English) removes the filioque clause, contains a strengthened epiclesis, and and adds some pre-Communion prayers from the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.
Can you provide some more info on these Scotsmen who considered being Orthodox? Thanks.
Here are some excerpts of their correspondence: http://pages.uoregon.edu/sshoemak/325/texts/nonjurors.htm
Interesting. A shame they were so protestantized as to deny the Real Presence, though.
 

Achronos

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Maria said:
Are there any current members of St. Augustine who can supply more information on this Gregorian Latin Mass?
As far as the changes/differences?
 

PJ

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Michał Kalina said:
Big Chris said:
So, you would rather that Catholics continue attending Masses in Latin where virtually nothing is understood?  The only reason I attend the OCA parish that I currently do is because it's in English.  I tried attending a Greek Orthodox parish, and even knowing Greek I couldn't bear it.  The changes may have seemed abrupt, but every elderly Catholic who I have spoken to much prefers the NO to the traditional Latin - even priests and bishops.  What's more important to you - upholding tradition at the expense of personal salvation or a liturgical experience that aids in that salvation?
Why can't you have traditional Mass in English?
That did exist briefly. I can't tell you too much about it, it was before my time.
 

PJ

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Maria said:
The novus ordo is a protestantized liturgy.

If you can find a 1904 Lutheran Hymnal, please do so. The only copy I found and studied back in 1995 was tossed into the fireplace by my then Catholic priest-confessor who also stated that he would never celebrate the Novus Ordo again. 
Interesting. So, I take it he was okay with the Novus Ordo before that?
 

Rdunbar123

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Dominika said:
. The Western hymnography is fairly poor than Eastern.
Hope I got the quote right. This is a matter of taste. Compare chanting to the masses in Latin by the great western composers IMO, no comparison, but then again I can't see what people saw in disco music.
 

PJ

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Rdunbar123 said:
but then again I can't see what people saw in disco music.
Great Scott! Have you gone mad?  :eek:
 

SubdeaconDavid

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Joseph Hazen said:
Big Chris said:
Joseph Hazen said:
It is a weak argument to find one example of a possible Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion and hold him up as an excuse and validation for a practice now found in practically every Roman church in North America, particularly when his hagiography describes him as a member of the minor clergy and clearly says nobody else was available to take Holy Communion to prisoners.
.
I don't think St Tarcisius is "one example" at all but a signal to a practice that occurred much more widespread in the early church.  And by minor clergy I'm sure you meant acolyte which still isn't a priest or deacon.
...and is not a layperson either. At any rate I agree with Asteriktos. We're not in the same situation as the Early Church anymore, not facing the persecutions they were or the other difficulties, and we don't really have proof that this was widespread.
n the Early Church the catechumenate was long and rigorous and the penalties for sin severe, and the Eucharist was not taken lightly, even if for a time laymen took the Eucharist home.  It is very different from the Novus Ordo where there are no obligatory communion preparation prayers, the hour Fast means you can just about eat a sandwich on the way to mass, and the use of women in the altar and distributing communion is an unheard of innovation. Add to the mix Roman Catholic priests who don't own a cassock, or know how to use incense, or amend the prayers in the order of mass to suit the congregation and you end up with Protestantism.
 

WeldeMikael

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I remember some young people coming in my RC Church, chanting with guitars for the mass... I felt like.... Am I in a Catholic church or a Protestant one  ???  :'(
 

Rdunbar123

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JamesRottnek said:
NicholasMyra said:
Deacon Lance said:
The Creed cannot be replaced by a song.  However, it is only called for on Sundays and Feastdays, not weekday Masses.
I've been to Catholic churches with no creed on sunday.
It may be liturgical abuse.
As an ex RC I promise you that no creed is an abuse. It is not optional.

Quoting tags editted - MK.
 

choy

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Gorazd said:
The Tridentine Mass feels much holier to me. I never understood why they needed to do this "mess destruction". Couldn't they just celebrate the 1962 mass in the local languages?
I think this is one of those things where the RC Church legislated themselves into a hole they can't get out of.  I think they mandated that the Tridentine Mass be always in Latin.
 

kevlev

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I have no first-hand experience of the NO mass. What I do know of it has been gathered through youtube and literature, and all of these encounters have left me cold and unaffected. Seems like it doesn't quite know what it wants to be: too liturgical for most protestants and too irreverent for traditionalists---the El Camino of liturgies. The Tridentine, on the other hand, looks truly awe-inspiring and absolutely gorgeous. I know which one I would go for if I professed Roman Catholicism. I really mean no offense to RCs, forgive me.
 

primuspilus

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Fotios1303 said:
I think this is a deep destruction of liturgy.

I don't know why they done this destruction.
Because their "innovations" somehow constitute the continuation of the early church I'd imagine.

PP
 

TinaG

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UUUUCHHHH!  I've had plenty of occasions to attend Novus Ordo masses in predominantly RC South Texas (weddings, First Communions, etc..) and I can't recall one that I didn't cringe at, especially with the use of that horrible, insipid Gather hymnal.  And don't get me started on the Communion buffet line with Eucharistic Ministers.  There are so many things I love and respect about Roman Catholicism and wish East and West could overcome their schism, but not if it meant watering down our worship,  practices or beliefs as I see in the Novus Ordo and modern Catholicism.
 
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Technically, I'm not yet Orthodox.  God willing, I will be received into the Church on Holy Saturday 2013.

I do have a bit of experience with the Novus Ordo Mass though.  In the 24 months before becoming an Orthodox Catecheumen [March 2012], I attended daily Mass MON-FRI [more than 500 masses] at a small [35-seat] chapel in the residential house of a religious order.  We met at 0730 to read the office of Matins [Orthros] in community and began Mass at 0800.

Each day there were approx ten priests, ten religious brothers and a regular group of 10-12 lay faithful [including myself].  The Mass itself is a brief [but by-the-book and reverently offered] Novus Ordo format.  Prayers are read, rather than sung.  There is a sermon every day and no priest offers Mass on consecutive days.  The Eucharist is always distributed by an ordained priest.  Priests and religious brothers in attendance often receive the consecrated Host in the hand.  Lay faithful receive on the tongue.  All drink from the Chalice.  

The Novus Ordo Mass is what it is.  There are a number of options which - if not kept in check by the priest - can turn it into a Ringling Brothers event.  That's never happened "here" in the two years I attended regularly.  The rector runs a tight ship and the priests take their part seriously  For the glory of God.

For the record, the Roman Catholic Church delivered me directly to the doorstep of Orthodoxy.

With gratitude.

Roddy


 

 

Apples

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kevlev said:
I have no first-hand experience of the NO mass. What I do know of it has been gathered through youtube and literature, and all of these encounters have left me cold and unaffected. Seems like it doesn't quite know what it wants to be: too liturgical for most protestants and too irreverent for traditionalists---the El Camino of liturgies. The Tridentine, on the other hand, looks truly awe-inspiring and absolutely gorgeous. I know which one I would go for if I professed Roman Catholicism. I really mean no offense to RCs, forgive me.
Pretty much this. None of the "liturgy is stupid" crowd is particularly satisfied with a halfway liturgy. When we were discussing this in a class of mine everybody still preferred the rock concerts they give at the megachurch in town and complained about the NO being too formal(!).
 

dzheremi

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99% of the liturgies I attended during my time in the RCC were Novus Ordo liturgies. I don't like them. Out of respect for the RCs here, I won't go into too much detail about how awful they are (as that can easily be answered by appeal to either the Eastern Catholic churches or the fact that "a properly celebrated N.O. mass can be just a reverent as anything else"; as though in the hundreds of masses I attended in several different places, said by many different priests, not one managed to ever properly celebrate it -- right). I'll just say that I much prefer this to anything like this. I am lucky in that the RC church I was received into was not quite as schlocky as you might imagine a Mass with plinky piano ruining everything to be, but that is par for the course in some other RC churches I had been to. Irreverent is the word, I suppose. I feel bad for RCs, when in their own history they have had beautiful, reverent, and traditional forms of worship like the Mozarabic, the Old Roman, the Gregorian of course, and even more, but today things like this absolute garbage (or if you prefer the "Eastern" spirituality of one of the non-Latin compatriots, this) is more often what people are offered. Lord have mercy!
 

dzheremi

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Hahaha. I don't know...no universe that I want to live in, that's for sure. Did you get to the modern RC mass a bit further down in the post? It is also quite...special.

I'm sorry, any RCs who might read this. You'll have to excuse me for having a bit of fun with how terrible these things are. In reality it's not very funny; it is entirely unnecessary and gross, in fact, but hey...if you can't laugh about it, you'll just get depressed or angry or doing something crazy and impulsive like get fed up and inquire into Orthodoxy, right? ;)
 
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dzheremi said:
Hahaha. I don't know...no universe that I want to live in, that's for sure. Did you get to the modern RC mass a bit further down in the post? It is also quite...special.

I'm sorry, any RCs who might read this. You'll have to excuse me for having a bit of fun with how terrible these things are. In reality it's not very funny; it is entirely unnecessary and gross, in fact, but hey...if you can't laugh about it, you'll just get depressed or angry or doing something crazy and impulsive like get fed up and inquire into Orthodoxy, right? ;)
Yes, I watched all of them. The Coptic liturgy was beautiful, of course.
 
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I'm sorry, any RCs who might read this. You'll have to excuse me for having a bit of fun with how terrible these things are. In reality it's not very funny; it is entirely unnecessary and gross, in fact, but hey...if you can't laugh about it, you'll just get depressed or angry or doing something crazy and impulsive like get fed up and inquire into Orthodoxy, right?
8)

Right.
 

kevlev

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GreekOrthodoxDude said:
dzheremi said:
In what universe is this considered good music by anyone?

I am sick of Christianity being taken over by incurable and insufferable dorks trying at coolness.
Doxology set to "Oh My Darling Clementine"?? Wow. How sad  :'(
 

dzheremi

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If you go to the, uh...composer's website, you will see the following bio:

Probably Stephen DeCesare's mother said:
Stephen DeCesare has proven to be one of those prolific composers whose compositions have been widely acclaimed by audiences and critics alike for their dramatic strength, passionate melodies and rich orchestrations. His works are receiving numerous performances and commissions all over the world.

On May 1st 2011, Stephen was honored by conducting his Mass of Divine Mercy in Stockbridge MA on a worldwide EWTN telecast for the beatification of John Paul II.

In addition to his work for the theater, Stephen is active in sacred and orchestral music. To date, Stephen has over 800 compositions in his compositional catalog.
Wow! Impressive, huh? He was honored to conduct his Mass on ETWN TV network. I'm really bummed that I missed it, actually. No word on whether or not he's available for children's parties, either. :(
 

kevlev

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dzheremi said:
If you go to the, uh...composer's website, you will see the following bio:

[b said:
Probably Stephen DeCesare's mother[/b]]<<<Lulz
Stephen DeCesare has proven to be one of those prolific composers whose compositions have been widely acclaimed by audiences and critics alike for their dramatic strength, passionate melodies and rich orchestrations. His works are receiving numerous performances and commissions all over the world.

On May 1st 2011, Stephen was honored by conducting his Mass of Divine Mercy in Stockbridge MA on a worldwide EWTN telecast for the beatification of John Paul II.

In addition to his work for the theater, Stephen is active in sacred and orchestral music. To date, Stephen has over 800 compositions in his compositional catalog.
Wow! Impressive, huh? He was honored to conduct his Mass on ETWN TV network. I'm really bummed that I missed it, actually. No word on whether or not he's available for children's parties, either. :(
LOL

Seriously though, I think we've all been waiting long enough for our churches to catch up to the profundity that was "Blues Clues". Brothers and sisters, DeCesare has arrived.
 

NicholasMyra

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I thought the RC had finally phased out "world without end" in favor of "for ever and ever" or something else not ridiculous.
 

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I don't think the Novus Ordo in itself is bad.  It just came at a bad time when priest themselves are heavily influenced by Protestant faiths.  They see that many of the people find Protestantism, especially those of the Evangelical variety, to be very appealing.  In an effort to get people interested in Mass, they start doing these things.  A lot of it is because people want them.  It is the sorry state of our spirituality as a people when we have secularized so quickly that priests have to resort to drastic measures just to keep us interested.
 

WeldeMikael

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choy said:
I don't think the Novus Ordo in itself is bad.  It just came at a bad time when priest themselves are heavily influenced by Protestant faiths.  They see that many of the people find Protestantism, especially those of the Evangelical variety, to be very appealing.  In an effort to get people interested in Mass, they start doing these things.  A lot of it is because people want them.  It is the sorry state of our spirituality as a people when we have secularized so quickly that priests have to resort to drastic measures just to keep us interested.
I agree.
 

Carefree T

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Maria said:
At St. Augustine Western Rite Parish in Colorado, Archimandrite John celebrates the Gregorian Latin Mass which is almost identical to the 1962 Tridentine Latin Mass.

There were some changes made, for example, the Nicene Creed has the "filioque" omitted.

Are there any current members of St. Augustine who can supply more information on this Gregorian Latin Mass?

To my knowledge, there are no WRO parishes which celebrate a variation of the NO Mass as it is a modern Protestantized liturgy.

Nevertheless, some WRO parishes appear to have a liturgy which is a modified Anglican form. Note: Some Anglicans do not consider themselves to be Protestants. When I attended the Mass at St. Michael's Antiochian Church in Whittier, that Mass was modified from the Anglicans. Again, if there are any members from St. Michaels perhaps they can enlighten us.
I'm not a "member," but I've visited St. Augustine and that parish has a good relationship with my home parish of Holy Transfiguration of Christ Cathedral in Denver (our icon writer has done some beautiful icons in their church, and parishioners from each of our churches visit each other often). But I don't have any more information than you've provided already; they do the Liturgy of Pope St. Gregory "by the book" down to the vestments, chants, acolytes, etc. except that it is in English save for the last Sunday of the month when everything is in Latin.

I pray for my best friend, who is Roman Catholic and he thinks
 

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choy said:
I don't think the Novus Ordo in itself is bad.  It just came at a bad time when priest themselves are heavily influenced by Protestant faiths.  They see that many of the people find Protestantism, especially those of the Evangelical variety, to be very appealing.  In an effort to get people interested in Mass, they start doing these things.  A lot of it is because people want them.  It is the sorry state of our spirituality as a people when we have secularized so quickly that priests have to resort to drastic measures just to keep us interested.
The Novus Ordo was intentionally stripped of unambiguous and solid Catholic doctrine and language in order to make Protestants feel more comfortable with it. The Tridentine, or better called the Gregorian Mass, has remained unchanged in its essentials since about the 6th century.

Innumerable books and studies have been done on the origin, formulation and promulgation of the Novus Ordo. It is bad in and of itself, not simply because it was promulgated poorly.

A certain traditionalist priest has recently written a book on the Paul VI Rite called "Work of Human Hands, A Theological Critique of the Mass of Paul VI" by Father Anthony Cekada. It is a devastating work on the New Mass.
 

Schultz

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kevlev said:
I have no first-hand experience of the NO mass. What I do know of it has been gathered through youtube and literature, and all of these encounters have left me cold and unaffected. Seems like it doesn't quite know what it wants to be: too liturgical for most protestants and too irreverent for traditionalists---the El Camino of liturgies. The Tridentine, on the other hand, looks truly awe-inspiring and absolutely gorgeous. I know which one I would go for if I professed Roman Catholicism. I really mean no offense to RCs, forgive me.
High mass, yes.

Low mass, which is what most Catholics of a certain age knew of as "mass," no. 
 

choy

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#1Sinner said:
The Novus Ordo was intentionally stripped of unambiguous and solid Catholic doctrine and language in order to make Protestants feel more comfortable with it. The Tridentine, or better called the Gregorian Mass, has remained unchanged in its essentials since about the 6th century.

Innumerable books and studies have been done on the origin, formulation and promulgation of the Novus Ordo. It is bad in and of itself, not simply because it was promulgated poorly.

A certain traditionalist priest has recently written a book on the Paul VI Rite called "Work of Human Hands, A Theological Critique of the Mass of Paul VI" by Father Anthony Cekada. It is a devastating work on the New Mass.
I do not see it this way.  As one who grew up with the Novus Ordo, I like it.  I do know that priests tend to introduce Evangelical elements to it today because of the current success by Evangelicals proselytizing Roman Catholics.  But I still believe it to be good and holy.  What I feel lacks in Roman Catholicism which I am trying to see if I can find it in Orthodoxy (and people here will say I will find it there, but I must undertake this journey myself) is the theological aspects apart from the Liturgy which I am guessing is what led to abuses in the first place.  I personally believe that the Reformation was successful and it has changed the Roman Catholic faith, though not to what Martin Luther has intended and what the Catholic Church will admit.  But so much of the Latin faith today is a byproduct of the Reformation, directly and indirectly.
 

WPM

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Its a modernized Mass service. The past year I've been attending Protestant services because of transportation issues.
 

Nephi

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I didn't attend a NO Mass until after converting to Orthodoxy, and having never been to a RC service before. I could see the Protestant influences all through it, and it was a huge let-down to be honest. I was expecting a Tridentine Mass in English (ignorant, I know), and instead got what appeared to be an abridged compilation of traditional liturgy with contemporary Evangelical worship services. The priest didn't seem to view the affair as sacred whatsoever, and instead was laughing and making funny gestures at people as he walked down the center aisle near the end of Mass - ceasing to sing (as everyone else was doing) in order to do so.

I could see it being done beautifully if one had a reverent priest, removed the campy hymns that broke up the continuity of the service (it's as if they were like "OH! We forgot to add hymns. Protestants LOVE hymns! We'll just throw them in here, and here - we'll win so many converts now!"), and got rid of the casually dressed Eucharistic Ministers.

Nonetheless, it wasn't bad.
 
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A certain traditionalist priest has recently written a book on the Paul VI Rite called "Work of Human Hands, A Theological Critique of the Mass of Paul VI" by Father Anthony Cekada. It is a devastating work on the New Mass.
I'm with #1sinner, that is one of my favourite books, it was one of elements in a long list of experiences and events that helped me conclude that Orthodoxy is the true faith. The Youtube videos for it are stupendous
see link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeXfbdr1jlM&list=PLDA085477E90AC096

it answers these questions:

• Why do so many churches built for the Mass of Paul VI look so "un-churchy"?
• Why does the priest face the people now for Mass?
• Why did the tabernacle disappear?
• Why are there so few statues and images?

The answer isn't fads or bad taste. It's bad theology — specifically the modernist theology of the Mass as assembly.

Naturally, understanding the Mass primarily as an assembly supper rather that as a sacrifice offered to God will have a profound influence on the externals of the rite.

Chapter Seven of Work of Human Hands examines how assembly theology affected the new legislation governing the externals of the Mass of Paul VI — church architecture, the altar, the tabernacle and the rest.

If the last Catholic church you were in looked like a food court or a Pizza Hut on the inside, you'll find the explanation here.
If only that book were required reading for the latin catholic schools or RCIA classes, there would be some reckoning.

Another book that had an equal influence and reminds of that book is

"The Banished Heart: Origins of Heteropraxis in the Catholic Church
(T&T Clark Studies in Fundamental Liturgy) by Dr. Geoffrey Hull

You can read a bit of Dr. Hulls ideas in this essay here, which is famous in traditional catholic circles.

http://www.theanglocatholic.com/2010/04/the-proto-history-of-the-roman-liturgical-reform/


Dr. Hull's book was amongst the most persuasive books to encourage one to become an Orthodox christian, or at least dedicated old latin mass goer that I ever found. It had solid bit by bit analysis of what led to the novus ordo mass and all the accompanying panolopy of theological teachings/associations promoted with it since the 60s especially but originating in some places by the 30's/40's.  It showed how the laity of the latin church was like a frog put in the warm water, with the temperature gradually increased to a steady boil...
 

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dzheremi said:
If you go to the, uh...composer's website, you will see the following bio:

Probably Stephen DeCesare's mother said:
Stephen DeCesare has proven to be one of those prolific composers whose compositions have been widely acclaimed by audiences and critics alike for their dramatic strength, passionate melodies and rich orchestrations. His works are receiving numerous performances and commissions all over the world.

On May 1st 2011, Stephen was honored by conducting his Mass of Divine Mercy in Stockbridge MA on a worldwide EWTN telecast for the beatification of John Paul II.

In addition to his work for the theater, Stephen is active in sacred and orchestral music. To date, Stephen has over 800 compositions in his compositional catalog.
Wow! Impressive, huh? He was honored to conduct his Mass on ETWN TV network. I'm really bummed that I missed it, actually. No word on whether or not he's available for children's parties, either. :(
I can be...if asked nicely.

tags editted - MK
 
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