Jibrail Almuhajir
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Conjecture is the forum's specialty, Fr.FatherGiryus said:Since the Church has not spoken definitely on this matter, every one of us is engaging in guess-work.
Conjecture is the forum's specialty, Fr.FatherGiryus said:Since the Church has not spoken definitely on this matter, every one of us is engaging in guess-work.
When it happens. The claim is that they're at the when, not a where.FatherGiryus said:experincing the parousia before it happens
How many Hypostases can indivduate upon the head of a Prosopon?Conjecture is the forum's specialty, Fr.
GabrieltheCelt said:Conjecture is the forum's specialty, Fr.FatherGiryus said:Since the Church has not spoken definitely on this matter, every one of us is engaging in guess-work.![]()
NicholasMyra said:When it happens. The claim is that they're at the when, not a where.FatherGiryus said:experincing the parousia before it happens
How many Hypostases can indivduate upon the head of a Prosopon?Conjecture is the forum's specialty, Fr.
I don't think Fr. Thom is suggesting that the body is not their real body. He is speaking of this age, where that body is sewn corruptible, and the age to come, when it is resurrected. Same body, different age. That's the language used by St. Paul, so I think it's an okay way to phrase things.FatherGiryus said:So, his 'on/off' proposition is problematic is the face of the Church's teachings, summarized in Theosis, or
I believe the patristic consensus is that humans retain an affinity for their bodies even after death, and so Fr. Tom's remark about the 'relic of their psychic body might still be in the tombs' is outlandish: what is in the tombs are really the body, and that is the body that will be glorified (even if it its utterly destroyed). I think Fr. Tom's statement interrupts that continuous relationship and makes it sound like the Church teaches that the dead body is no longer the body.
NicholasMyra said:I don't think Fr. Thom is suggesting that the body is not their real body. He is speaking of this age, where that body is sewn corruptible, and the age to come, when it is resurrected. Same body, different age. That's the language used by St. Paul, so I think it's an okay way to phrase things.FatherGiryus said:So, his 'on/off' proposition is problematic is the face of the Church's teachings, summarized in Theosis, or
I believe the patristic consensus is that humans retain an affinity for their bodies even after death, and so Fr. Tom's remark about the 'relic of their psychic body might still be in the tombs' is outlandish: what is in the tombs are really the body, and that is the body that will be glorified (even if it its utterly destroyed). I think Fr. Tom's statement interrupts that continuous relationship and makes it sound like the Church teaches that the dead body is no longer the body.
FatherGiryus said:[size=11pt]But, there is nothing in our Tradition that says that death is the Age to Come.
We agree. But what you said:FatherGiryus said:The quote from St. John merely affirms what I wrote: the saints on earth rise to meet the reposed saints coming down with the Lord, and they together form the pomp that accompanies Christ when He returns to judge the earth. The condemned remain below.
Nothing unusual here.
confused me. :-\FatherGiryus said:Notice there are three categories: the 'dead' who appear below and who are resurrected first, who then are greeted by a collection of the living remnant and those who are coming down with Christ from the heavens (i.e. the place of rest).
Who are the 'dead in Christ'? Is there such a thing? Yes, there are those that have not entered into rest, those who are the residents of hades who refuse to leave. They are truly 'dead.' They do not join the triumphant pomp of the Lord's return, so these are not members of the Body of Christ. This is death.
I understand "the dead in Christ" as these same ones who have fallen asleep; not distinct.For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. 1Th 4:15-17.
explains the first:And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.
For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.
Hiwot said:thank dear Arnaud I truly appreciate it. ;D
NicholasMyra said:FatherGiryus said:[size=11pt]But, there is nothing in our Tradition that says that death is the Age to Come.
I don't think he's saying death is the age to come. I think he's saying there's no death at all anymore.
Arnaud said:confused me. :-\FatherGiryus said:Who are the 'dead in Christ'? Is there such a thing? Yes, there are those that have not entered into rest, those who are the residents of hades who refuse to leave. They are truly 'dead.' They do not join the triumphant pomp of the Lord's return, so these are not members of the Body of Christ. This is death.
FatherGiryus said:[size=11pt]The Age to Come is the Age to Come. I could make the same absolutist argument that he makes about death that you are either in the Age to Come totally or not at all. How can a finite being begin to 'experience' timelessness when he has and always will be a creature of time?
NicholasMyra said:FatherGiryus said:[size=11pt]The Age to Come is the Age to Come. I could make the same absolutist argument that he makes about death that you are either in the Age to Come totally or not at all. How can a finite being begin to 'experience' timelessness when he has and always will be a creature of time?
Father,
Isn't it clear from the Scriptures that the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, within us, and to come, at the same time?
This doesn't make the creatures who experience it timeless. It means that God can blur the lines. After all, God hears our prayers in the present from before all ages; surely he can make a mystical age that follows, not a "timelessness", but a different sort of sanctified time.
Okay, then Should we understand the 'dead in Christ' to also mean, not only those departed whose souls are in sheol, but also those still in the flesh [but spiritually dead] at the time of the Second Coming of our Lord? What about this latter group?FatherGiryus said:Sorry about the confusion. I think if you reread the colored passages I previously posted and let it sink in, you'll see that there are three sets of people, and the 'dead in Christ' are not the same as those who join the others 'in the clouds'.
Arnaud said:confused me. :-\FatherGiryus said:Who are the 'dead in Christ'? Is there such a thing? Yes, there are those that have not entered into rest, those who are the residents of hades who refuse to leave. They are truly 'dead.' They do not join the triumphant pomp of the Lord's return, so these are not members of the Body of Christ. This is death.
Arnaud said:Okay, then Should we understand the 'dead in Christ' to also mean, not only those departed whose souls are in sheol, but also those still in the flesh [but spiritually dead] at the time of the Second Coming of our Lord? What about this latter group?FatherGiryus said:Sorry about the confusion. I think if you reread the colored passages I previously posted and let it sink in, you'll see that there are three sets of people, and the 'dead in Christ' are not the same as those who join the others 'in the clouds'.
Arnaud said:confused me. :-\FatherGiryus said:Who are the 'dead in Christ'? Is there such a thing? Yes, there are those that have not entered into rest, those who are the residents of hades who refuse to leave. They are truly 'dead.' They do not join the triumphant pomp of the Lord's return, so these are not members of the Body of Christ. This is death.
If I understand you correctly, you are saying those departed whose souls are in paradise, and those faithful still in the flesh at the time of the Second Coming of our Lord, shall resurrect bodily and be caught in the clouds to meet the Lord in the same time? No group precede nor follow the other, eh?
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In the TOB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traduction_%C5%93cum%C3%A9nique_de_la_Bible) for instance, the psg reads in French:
"Voici en effet ce que nous avons à dire, sur la parole du Seigneur. Nous, les vivants, nous qui serons encore là pour l'Avènement du Seigneur, nous ne devancerons pas ceux qui seront endormis. Car Lui-même, le Seigneur, au signal donné par la voix de l'archange et la trompette de Dieu, descendra du ciel, et les morts qui sont dans le Christ ressusciteront en premier lieu; après quoi nous, les vivants, nous qui serons encore là, nous serons réunis à eux et emportés sur des nuées pour rencontrer le Seigneur dans les airs. Ainsi nous serons avec le Seigneur toujours. Réconfortez-vous donc les uns les autres de ces pensées."
= "Les (the) morts (dead) qui (who) sont (are) dans (in) le Christ (Christ) ressusciteront (will resurrect) en premier lieu (first); après quoi nous, les vivants, nous qui serons encore là, nous serons réunis à eux et emportés sur des nuées pour rencontrer le Seigneur dans les airs (after what we, the living, we who will still be there, we will be brought together with them and took away on clouds to meet the Lord in the air)."
'The dead who are in Christ' obviously can't mean here, according to the wording, those whose souls are in sheol..
And in another French translation, the Louis Segond's translation, in 1 Corinthians 15: 16-18 it reads:
"Car si les morts ne ressuscitent point, Christ non plus n'est pas ressuscité. Et si Christ n'est pas ressuscité, votre foi est vaine, vous êtes encore dans vos péchés, et par conséquent aussi ceux qui sont morts en Christ sont perdus."
= "Cause if the dead do not resurrect, Christ is not resurrected either. And if Christ is not resurrected, your faith is vain, you are still in your sins, and therefore also those who died in Christ are lost."
Here it doesn't say 'dead in Christ' but 'those who died in Christ'. It's not the same thing but is very close. Logically, someone who died is a dead, right? So, someone who died in Christ, Is it not possible to say he is a dead in Christ or a dead who is in Christ?
Do you understand, Father, why I have some difficulty to understand your separation of the 'dead in Christ' from 'those who have fallen asleep' in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
Thanks anyway.
"The process of cell death thus really begins as soon as the heart stops beating due to the effects of lack of oxygen but continues for many tens of minutes if not hours until eventually all the remnants of the cells also disintegrate and we are left with nothing other than bones. "Arnaud said:There were several cases when that happened while the person's brain was said to be non-functioning, while the person was clinically dead. And in most cases, the testimonies of NDEs gathered have similarities (decorporation, tunnel with very white light, encounters...etc), which is why that's so strange.Azul said:I have not heard of many cases but I think they are the product of the mind.Thus not all experience the same stuff..
I have heard many weird experiences also.. heck even had one after a strong hangover but i`m not sure if that qualifies as NDEKerdy said:I can’t prove or disprove NDE in the context of this thread, but personally I do not believe in them. I have heard too many heretical “experiences”. Perhaps evil uses the unprotected state of the person at that time to invade their mind. Who knows? I have; however, had a different kind of NDE, several in fact, or should we call them Near Misses.
Fr are you saying that the souls have no mind conscience after their death untill "the Resurrection" ? Are you saying they wake up directly in the times of Resurrection and Last Judgement?FatherGiryus said:You are making the assumption that to 'die in Christ' is to remain 'dead in Christ.' The concept of 'dead in Christ' appears nowhere else in the Scriptures, and that is because of the teaching that those who die in Christ are freed from the 'pit' of sheol so that they may pass to eternal rest.
I could see why you would confuse the two, but the rest of the Tradition pretty plainly rejects the idea that Christians who die 'in Christ' remain dead.
Plus, you are ignoring the fact that those that St. Paul describes as the 'dead' do not rise up to join the pomp descending from the heavens.'
It's OK, this will take a while to sink in. It certainly did for me.
Arnaud said:Okay, then Should we understand the 'dead in Christ' to also mean, not only those departed whose souls are in sheol, but also those still in the flesh [but spiritually dead] at the time of the Second Coming of our Lord? What about this latter group?FatherGiryus said:Sorry about the confusion. I think if you reread the colored passages I previously posted and let it sink in, you'll see that there are three sets of people, and the 'dead in Christ' are not the same as those who join the others 'in the clouds'.
Arnaud said:confused me. :-\FatherGiryus said:Who are the 'dead in Christ'? Is there such a thing? Yes, there are those that have not entered into rest, those who are the residents of hades who refuse to leave. They are truly 'dead.' They do not join the triumphant pomp of the Lord's return, so these are not members of the Body of Christ. This is death.
If I understand you correctly, you are saying those departed whose souls are in paradise, and those faithful still in the flesh at the time of the Second Coming of our Lord, shall resurrect bodily and be caught in the clouds to meet the Lord in the same time? No group precede nor follow the other, eh?
__________________________________________
In the TOB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traduction_%C5%93cum%C3%A9nique_de_la_Bible) for instance, the psg reads in French:
"Voici en effet ce que nous avons à dire, sur la parole du Seigneur. Nous, les vivants, nous qui serons encore là pour l'Avènement du Seigneur, nous ne devancerons pas ceux qui seront endormis. Car Lui-même, le Seigneur, au signal donné par la voix de l'archange et la trompette de Dieu, descendra du ciel, et les morts qui sont dans le Christ ressusciteront en premier lieu; après quoi nous, les vivants, nous qui serons encore là, nous serons réunis à eux et emportés sur des nuées pour rencontrer le Seigneur dans les airs. Ainsi nous serons avec le Seigneur toujours. Réconfortez-vous donc les uns les autres de ces pensées."
= "Les (the) morts (dead) qui (who) sont (are) dans (in) le Christ (Christ) ressusciteront (will resurrect) en premier lieu (first); après quoi nous, les vivants, nous qui serons encore là, nous serons réunis à eux et emportés sur des nuées pour rencontrer le Seigneur dans les airs (after what we, the living, we who will still be there, we will be brought together with them and took away on clouds to meet the Lord in the air)."
'The dead who are in Christ' obviously can't mean here, according to the wording, those whose souls are in sheol..
And in another French translation, the Louis Segond's translation, in 1 Corinthians 15: 16-18 it reads:
"Car si les morts ne ressuscitent point, Christ non plus n'est pas ressuscité. Et si Christ n'est pas ressuscité, votre foi est vaine, vous êtes encore dans vos péchés, et par conséquent aussi ceux qui sont morts en Christ sont perdus."
= "Cause if the dead do not resurrect, Christ is not resurrected either. And if Christ is not resurrected, your faith is vain, you are still in your sins, and therefore also those who died in Christ are lost."
Here it doesn't say 'dead in Christ' but 'those who died in Christ'. It's not the same thing but is very close. Logically, someone who died is a dead, right? So, someone who died in Christ, Is it not possible to say he is a dead in Christ or a dead who is in Christ?
Do you understand, Father, why I have some difficulty to understand your separation of the 'dead in Christ' from 'those who have fallen asleep' in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
Thanks anyway.
Azul said:Fr are you saying that the souls have no mind conscience after their death untill "the Resurrection" ? Are you saying they wake up directly in the times of Resurrection and Last Judgement?
Than what?FatherGiryus said:Absolutely not.
Azul said:Fr are you saying that the souls have no mind conscience after their death untill "the Resurrection" ? Are you saying they wake up directly in the times of Resurrection and Last Judgement?
Azul said:Than what?FatherGiryus said:Absolutely not.
Azul said:Fr are you saying that the souls have no mind conscience after their death untill "the Resurrection" ? Are you saying they wake up directly in the times of Resurrection and Last Judgement?
FatherGiryus said:[size=11pt]You are making the assumption that to 'die in Christ' is to remain 'dead in Christ.' The concept of 'dead in Christ' appears nowhere else in the Scriptures, and that is because of the teaching that those who die in Christ are freed from the 'pit' of sheol so that they may pass to eternal rest.
You see.But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming...
If the dead do not rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”...
But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain -- perhaps wheat or some other grain. But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body. All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of men, another of animals, another of fish, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body...
1 Corinthians 15: 20-23, 32, 35-44.
Well, I'm following your advise and I'm trying to understand a commentary of St John Chrysostom.FatherGiryus said:It's OK, this will take a while to sink in. It certainly did for me.
Seems like you're in line with him. I'm reconsidering my interpretation. Yet I do not understand why, if by 'the dead who shall rise in Christ' he indicates those whose souls are in sheol, I do not understand why they would rise in Christ.Speaking concerning the faithful, and them "which are fallen asleep in Christ" 1 Corinthians 15:18; and again, "the dead shall rise in Christ." Since his discourse is not concerning the Resurrection only, but both concerning the Resurrection and concerning the honor in glory; all then shall partake of a Resurrection, he says, but not all shall be in glory, only those in Christ. Since therefore he wishes to comfort them, he comforts them not with this only, but also with the abundant honor, and with its speedy arrival, since they knew that. For in proof that he wishes to comfort them with the honor, as he goes on, he says, "And we shall be ever with the Lord" and "we shall be caught up in the clouds."
But how do the faithful fall asleep in Jesus? It means having Christ within themselves. But the expression, "He shall bring with Him," shows that they are brought from many places. "This." Something strange he was about to tell them. On this account he also adds what makes it worthy of credit; "From the word of the Lord," he says, that is, we speak not of ourselves, but having learned from Christ, "That we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in nowise precede them that are fallen asleep." Which also he says in his Epistle to the Corinthians; "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." 1 Corinthians 15:52. Here he gives a credibility to the Resurrection by the manner also in which it will occur.
For because the matter seems to be difficult he says that as it is easy for the living to be taken up, so also for the departed. But in saying "we," he does not speak of himself, for he was not about to remain until the Resurrection, but he speaks of the faithful. On this account he has added, "We that are left unto the coming of the Lord shall in nowise precede them that are fallen asleep." As if he had said, Think not that there is any difficulty. It is God that does it. They who are then alive shall not anticipate those who are dissolved, who are rotted, who have been dead ten thousand years. But as it is easy to bring those who are entire, so is it also those who are dissolved.