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orthonorm

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Papist said:
The God Delusion -Richard Dawkins.


Really, this is a silly work. The secularist crowd has much better...
Why do you bother? I mean really?

Dawkins is a joke.
 

Papist

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orthonorm said:
Papist said:
The God Delusion -Richard Dawkins.


Really, this is a silly work. The secularist crowd has much better...
Why do you bother? I mean really?

Dawkins is a joke.
Well, I was writing a paper and I had to show how many atheist thinkers have misrepresneted Aquinas' "fourth" way as the "Design Argument", and Dawkins was a clear example of this error.
That being said, I recognize that there are more thoughtful atheists such as Nietzsche, Hume (hume may have believed in some very limited version of God, but it was so limited that he almost appears to be an atheist), Russell, etc.

 

orthonorm

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Papist said:
orthonorm said:
Papist said:
The God Delusion -Richard Dawkins.


Really, this is a silly work. The secularist crowd has much better...
Why do you bother? I mean really?

Dawkins is a joke.
Well, I was writing a paper and I had to show how many atheist thinkers have misrepresneted Aquinas' "fourth" way as the "Design Argument", and Dawkins was a clear example of this error.
That being said, I recognize that there are more thoughtful atheists such as Nietzsche, Hume (hume may have believed in some very limited version of God, but it was so limited that he almost appears to be an atheist), Russell, etc.
Of course, I will maintain Nietzsche wasn't an atheist. Weird that people really think that.

But sorry to hear about your luck. Dawkins is just a snooze fest. Sheep playing at wolf.

I wish Christians wouldn't take him so seriously, then he would go away.

 

Papist

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orthonorm said:
Papist said:
orthonorm said:
Papist said:
The God Delusion -Richard Dawkins.


Really, this is a silly work. The secularist crowd has much better...
Why do you bother? I mean really?

Dawkins is a joke.
Well, I was writing a paper and I had to show how many atheist thinkers have misrepresneted Aquinas' "fourth" way as the "Design Argument", and Dawkins was a clear example of this error.
That being said, I recognize that there are more thoughtful atheists such as Nietzsche, Hume (hume may have believed in some very limited version of God, but it was so limited that he almost appears to be an atheist), Russell, etc.
Of course, I will maintain Nietzsche wasn't an atheist. Weird that people really think that.
Ah yes, I've heard this before, but have not studied the issue.
orthonorm said:
But sorry to hear about your luck. Dawkins is just a snooze fest. Sheep playing at wolf.
Agreed. I was hoping for something more substantial from a world famous biologist.

orthonorm said:
I wish Christians wouldn't take him so seriously, then he would go away.
I think they would, except for the fact that Dawkins has actually converted many away from the faith.
 

orthonorm

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Papist said:
orthonorm said:
Papist said:
orthonorm said:
Papist said:
The God Delusion -Richard Dawkins.


Really, this is a silly work. The secularist crowd has much better...
Why do you bother? I mean really?

Dawkins is a joke.
Well, I was writing a paper and I had to show how many atheist thinkers have misrepresneted Aquinas' "fourth" way as the "Design Argument", and Dawkins was a clear example of this error.
That being said, I recognize that there are more thoughtful atheists such as Nietzsche, Hume (hume may have believed in some very limited version of God, but it was so limited that he almost appears to be an atheist), Russell, etc.
Of course, I will maintain Nietzsche wasn't an atheist. Weird that people really think that.
Ah yes, I've heard this before, but have not studied the issue.
orthonorm said:
But sorry to hear about your luck. Dawkins is just a snooze fest. Sheep playing at wolf.
Agreed. I was hoping for something more substantial from a world famous biologist.

orthonorm said:
I wish Christians wouldn't take him so seriously, then he would go away.
I think they would, except for the fact that Dawkins has actually converted many away from the faith.
Actually Papist google around and see how many people in America profess to be atheist. Then look at Western Europe.

You might be surprised by the numbers. The "non-religious" often get tossed into those numbers, but when you remove them, atheists are an extreme minority, especially in the USA.

Dawkins just gives the vocal minority a figurehead they have been without for some time and the media loves him because those who disagree will tune in.

The growth of the non-religious has less to do with a lack of belief in God and more in the behavior of Christians. For that, we will be held accountable.

Then again, this country as you well know, was "founded" by nominal Christians. So really, being a deist is pretty much an authentically elite American tradition.

Broad musings for what they are worth.
 

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orthonorm said:
Papist said:
orthonorm said:
Papist said:
orthonorm said:
Papist said:
The God Delusion -Richard Dawkins.


Really, this is a silly work. The secularist crowd has much better...
Why do you bother? I mean really?

Dawkins is a joke.
Well, I was writing a paper and I had to show how many atheist thinkers have misrepresneted Aquinas' "fourth" way as the "Design Argument", and Dawkins was a clear example of this error.
That being said, I recognize that there are more thoughtful atheists such as Nietzsche, Hume (hume may have believed in some very limited version of God, but it was so limited that he almost appears to be an atheist), Russell, etc.
Of course, I will maintain Nietzsche wasn't an atheist. Weird that people really think that.
Ah yes, I've heard this before, but have not studied the issue.
orthonorm said:
But sorry to hear about your luck. Dawkins is just a snooze fest. Sheep playing at wolf.
Agreed. I was hoping for something more substantial from a world famous biologist.

orthonorm said:
I wish Christians wouldn't take him so seriously, then he would go away.
I think they would, except for the fact that Dawkins has actually converted many away from the faith.
Actually Papist google around and see how many people in America profess to be atheist. Then look at Western Europe.

You might be surprised by the numbers. The "non-religious" often get tossed into those numbers, but when you remove them, atheists are an extreme minority, especially in the USA.

Dawkins just gives the vocal minority a figurehead they have been without for some time and the media loves him because those who disagree will tune in.

The growth of the non-religious has less to do with a lack of belief in God and more in the behavior of Christians. For that, we will be held accountable.

Then again, this country as you well know, was "founded" by nominal Christians. So really, being a deist is pretty much an authentically elite American tradition.

Broad musings for what they are worth.
I was going by anecdotal evidence. Scott Hahn has stated that Dawkins was making several theology students at a Catholic university turn away from their faith.
But now that I write that, it seems like a pretty unbelievable story. You are probably right.
 

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The God Delusion wasn't completely worthless, at least for people like me who hadn't read much of that type of material before. I pretty much became an agnostic/atheist without ever having read any atheist/agnostic/skeptical material, except for a couple works by Nietzsche (which at the time I thought were silly) and a couple skeptic magazines (which didn't even really cover anything related to the issue). But regarding The God Delusion, I had never heard of the cargo cult phenomenon before his book, nor some of the psychological studies he mentions, and perhaps a couple other things. But the book really seemed to me to be mostly a collection of the work that others had done, with some commentary added. On the other hand, I think people should at least read him before criticizing. There is certainly a lot to take issue with, but most people miss the target because they assume things he doesn't actually believe (e.g. Dawkins doesn't claim to be certain that there is no God, nor does he claim that evolution is random).
 

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Just arrived today: per Biro's discovery, I purchased One for Sorrow by Mary Reed & Eric Morrow, it's the first of the John Lord Chamberlain mystery series set in Byzantium.

Also, Tastes of Byzantium: The Cuisine of a Legendary Empire, by Andrew Dalby, that I thought was a cookbook, but appears to be a historical look at food and wine in the Byzantine Empire. Ought to be interesting.
 

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Just got "A Beginner's Guide to Spirituality - The Orthodox Path to a Deeper Relationship with God" by Fr. Michael Keiser.

After the first few pages, I'll already hooked:

"Spirituality is in! .... television mystics can teach you about releasing your inner spirit and being embraced, led, or stalked by the Light.  And, singles seeking someone make certain not to attract anyone overtly religious, but just the vaguely mystical;  we would not want to discuss any specific beliefs when we could just wallow in feeling."

and

"The word "spirituality" was formerly used in a specifically Christian sense, but today it is applied to all kinds or religious feelings and practices that are the opposite of Christian teaching.... "

I'm looking forward to learning the foundation of Orthodox spirituality, and this looks like a good book so far...  :)
 

Asteriktos

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Rereading...

The Ancient Maya, by Sharer and Traxler

I'm still fairly early on, in the section in which they're discussing the terrain, climate, etc. of SE Mexico, Guatemala, etc. So boring getting through this part...
 

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Asteriktos said:
The God Delusion wasn't completely worthless, at least for people like me who hadn't read much of that type of material before. I pretty much became an agnostic/atheist without ever having read any atheist/agnostic/skeptical material, except for a couple works by Nietzsche (which at the time I thought were silly) and a couple skeptic magazines (which didn't even really cover anything related to the issue). But regarding The God Delusion, I had never heard of the cargo cult phenomenon before his book, nor some of the psychological studies he mentions, and perhaps a couple other things. But the book really seemed to me to be mostly a collection of the work that others had done, with some commentary added. On the other hand, I think people should at least read him before criticizing. There is certainly a lot to take issue with, but most people miss the target because they assume things he doesn't actually believe (e.g. Dawkins doesn't claim to be certain that there is no God, nor does he claim that evolution is random).
My criticism of Dawkins does not address whether he is an atheist or an agnostic. My criticism of his thought is directed at his lack of understanding with regard to theistic philosophy. For the most part, he doesn't even understand what Aquinas' five ways are talking about in the first place. One example of this is Dawkins' attack on Aquinas arugment from final causality. Dawkins completely misses the point and attacks the argument as if it were the argument from design.
 

Asteriktos

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Papist said:
Asteriktos said:
The God Delusion wasn't completely worthless, at least for people like me who hadn't read much of that type of material before. I pretty much became an agnostic/atheist without ever having read any atheist/agnostic/skeptical material, except for a couple works by Nietzsche (which at the time I thought were silly) and a couple skeptic magazines (which didn't even really cover anything related to the issue). But regarding The God Delusion, I had never heard of the cargo cult phenomenon before his book, nor some of the psychological studies he mentions, and perhaps a couple other things. But the book really seemed to me to be mostly a collection of the work that others had done, with some commentary added. On the other hand, I think people should at least read him before criticizing. There is certainly a lot to take issue with, but most people miss the target because they assume things he doesn't actually believe (e.g. Dawkins doesn't claim to be certain that there is no God, nor does he claim that evolution is random).
My criticism of Dawkins does not address whether he is an atheist or an agnostic. My criticism of his thought is directed at his lack of understanding with regard to theistic philosophy. For the most part, he doesn't even understand what Aquinas' five ways are talking about in the first place. One example of this is Dawkins' attack on Aquinas arugment from final causality. Dawkins completely misses the point and attacks the argument as if it were the argument from design.
Ok, sorry if I hit you with any of my cannon fire :)  Fwiw I agree (I think?) that Dawkins is out of his element with that kind of stuff. Though pretty much every atheist author I've read in the last few years seems to (usually unwittingly) focus on evangelicalism, as though that's the standard or best form of Christianity. Sometimes they'll throw Aquinas or Augustine in, and maybe a lone quote from Tertullian or someone if they want to show how evil those ancient Christians were.
 

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Asteriktos said:
Papist said:
Asteriktos said:
The God Delusion wasn't completely worthless, at least for people like me who hadn't read much of that type of material before. I pretty much became an agnostic/atheist without ever having read any atheist/agnostic/skeptical material, except for a couple works by Nietzsche (which at the time I thought were silly) and a couple skeptic magazines (which didn't even really cover anything related to the issue). But regarding The God Delusion, I had never heard of the cargo cult phenomenon before his book, nor some of the psychological studies he mentions, and perhaps a couple other things. But the book really seemed to me to be mostly a collection of the work that others had done, with some commentary added. On the other hand, I think people should at least read him before criticizing. There is certainly a lot to take issue with, but most people miss the target because they assume things he doesn't actually believe (e.g. Dawkins doesn't claim to be certain that there is no God, nor does he claim that evolution is random).
My criticism of Dawkins does not address whether he is an atheist or an agnostic. My criticism of his thought is directed at his lack of understanding with regard to theistic philosophy. For the most part, he doesn't even understand what Aquinas' five ways are talking about in the first place. One example of this is Dawkins' attack on Aquinas arugment from final causality. Dawkins completely misses the point and attacks the argument as if it were the argument from design.
Ok, sorry if I hit you with any of my cannon fire :)  Fwiw I agree (I think?) that Dawkins is out of his element with that kind of stuff. Though pretty much every atheist author I've read in the last few years seems to (usually unwittingly) focus on evangelicalism, as though that's the standard or best form of Christianity. Sometimes they'll throw Aquinas or Augustine in, and maybe a lone quote from Tertullian or someone if they want to show how evil those ancient Christians were.
Haha, not a problem at all. I just wanted to be clear on where my criticism of Dawkins lay.
 

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Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

 

I just finished The Virgin Suicides so its been a good transition into rereading American Gods. Eugenides is just such a mercilessly good writer, so fluid, so captivatingly bland and yet surreal to become as ordinarily out of the ordinary. Not overpowering and yet too invisible. Only Gabriel Garcia-Marquez does this better, and even he could take some lessons from the Virgin Suicides, though I just couldn't get into Middlesex even as superbly written as it was. There is a new one I'm lazily seeking..

With American Gods, I enjoyed it the first time, but I think this second time and at this junction in my life I am appreciating it better.  So I am getting this novel a bitter more intuitively then the first time through. I find it visual, subtle, coy. The motifs slowly unveil themselves but only so slightly as if being shy.. Brilliant idea about how America has transformed the gods and devils of the Old World into trivialities, low-lives, and forgotten day dreams, and how our new things like TV, the internet, cars, are all the new devils, the new gods, as entities and not just concepts.  I do wish that Gaiman had elaborated on these a bit more, it would have only increased the brilliance of this original theme..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
 

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HabteSelassie said:
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

 

I just finished The Virgin Suicides so its been a good transition into rereading American Gods. Eugenides is just such a mercilessly good writer, so fluid, so captivatingly bland and yet surreal to become as ordinarily out of the ordinary. Not overpowering and yet too invisible. Only Gabriel Garcia-Marquez does this better, and even he could take some lessons from the Virgin Suicides, though I just couldn't get into Middlesex even as superbly written as it was. There is a new one I'm lazily seeking..

With American Gods, I enjoyed it the first time, but I think this second time and at this junction in my life I am appreciating it better.  So I am getting this novel a bitter more intuitively then the first time through. I find it visual, subtle, coy. The motifs slowly unveil themselves but only so slightly as if being shy.. Brilliant idea about how America has transformed the gods and devils of the Old World into trivialities, low-lives, and forgotten day dreams, and how our new things like TV, the internet, cars, are all the new devils, the new gods, as entities and not just concepts.  I do wish that Gaiman had elaborated on these a bit more, it would have only increased the brilliance of this original theme..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Not a big Gaiman fan, but I think the Anansi Boys is better than American Gods. It just a better story overall, more personal and the like.

Plus, I could use the nearly pointless experience I have with Yoruban folks and thus their many syncretic offspring here in the Real World to add a little flavor to the book.
 

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The Better Angels of our Nature - Why Violence Has Declined, by Steven Pinker

I haven't read anything by him before, but I downloaded a sample of his latest from amazon as I thought the premise was interesting, and was pretty quickly hooked. Bought it. Engaging writing style. Lots of interesting data. Compelling.
 

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stavros_388 said:
The Better Angels of our Nature - Why Violence Has Declined, by Steven Pinker

I haven't read anything by him before, but I downloaded a sample of his latest from amazon as I thought the premise was interesting, and was pretty quickly hooked. Bought it. Engaging writing style. Lots of interesting data. Compelling.
Pinker is great and probably right for the most part, though a review I read said he kind of glosses over Christianity's role in declining violence, i.e. the modern lack of violence is entirely due to Enlightenment values, even though there was an appreciable decline already in the early Middle Ages.
 

orthonorm

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Jonathan Gress said:
stavros_388 said:
The Better Angels of our Nature - Why Violence Has Declined, by Steven Pinker

I haven't read anything by him before, but I downloaded a sample of his latest from amazon as I thought the premise was interesting, and was pretty quickly hooked. Bought it. Engaging writing style. Lots of interesting data. Compelling.
Pinker is great and probably right for the most part, though a review I read said he kind of glosses over Christianity's role in declining violence, i.e. the modern lack of violence is entirely due to Enlightenment values, even though there was an appreciable decline already in the early Middle Ages.
Your "Enlightenment" was delivered to you by the Muslims, not Christians.
 

Jonathan Gress

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orthonorm said:
Jonathan Gress said:
stavros_388 said:
The Better Angels of our Nature - Why Violence Has Declined, by Steven Pinker

I haven't read anything by him before, but I downloaded a sample of his latest from amazon as I thought the premise was interesting, and was pretty quickly hooked. Bought it. Engaging writing style. Lots of interesting data. Compelling.
Pinker is great and probably right for the most part, though a review I read said he kind of glosses over Christianity's role in declining violence, i.e. the modern lack of violence is entirely due to Enlightenment values, even though there was an appreciable decline already in the early Middle Ages.
Your "Enlightenment" was delivered to you by the Muslims, not Christians.
What? Are you talking about the 18th century one or the early medieval one?
 
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