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Not necessarily. Could someone perhaps give me quotes from the book pertaining to ghosts? Anyone?Heorhij said:Different expressions of one common philosophy, Gnosticism, - no?
Not necessarily. Could someone perhaps give me quotes from the book pertaining to ghosts? Anyone?Heorhij said:Different expressions of one common philosophy, Gnosticism, - no?
I'm not sure there ARE any quotes in it about what you're looking for.Thomas said:That book does not have anything about the occult and ghosts
That was the feeling I was getting...RLNM said:I am getting the feeling that while many of us have our opinions, no one actually knows the official view of the Orthodox Church.
Well...i'm pretty sure that none of the ecumenical councils dealt with ghosts, as I am pretty sure that would have been considered pagan, or in the realm of spiritually.RLNM said:I am getting the feeling that while many of us have our opinions, no one actually knows the official view of the Orthodox Church.
Sadly, Nicholas, I have read Father Seraphims Rose's book, Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, several years ago having checked it our from a Parish Library in another Town. I remember he addressed aoccultism and spiritualism in the book, as well as America's fascination with eastern (Hindu) mysticism, but I don't own the book to quote from. Perhaps a member of your local parish may have a copy or your parish library?PoorFoolNicholas said:Not necessarily. Could someone perhaps give me quotes from the book pertaining to ghosts? Anyone?
I read similar things when approaching the toll-houses theory. I think this theory, based on the visions of some great mystics of the First Millennium, said that the soul surrounds his own body for three days after his death, and then is taken away by angels to be processed in the next 37 days of judgment (which totals 40 days). Anyway, I never heard of visiting places where they had sinned, at least not in the texts I read.stashko said:I heard that it is evil spirits instead of souls or ghost that haunt a place ,,,
souls leave about 40 days after death ,,they visit places they knew in life and things are revealed
like the purpose of life... Some one mentioned this to me how true or false it is.. I'm not sure though....
just repeating what was told to me...
I think it was Fr.Miroslav that mentioned this to me...For forty days they have freedom to roam the earth or the universe to see all of Gods creation, not just the places that they visited in life..After that they go to the place where all souls go to....AlexanderOfBergamo said:I read similar things when approaching the toll-houses theory. I think this theory, based on the visions of some great mystics of the First Millennium, said that the soul surrounds his own body for three days after his death, and then is taken away by angels to be processed in the next 37 days of judgment (which totals 40 days). Anyway, I never heard of visiting places where they had sinned, at least not in the texts I read.stashko said:I heard that it is evil spirits instead of souls or ghost that haunt a place ,,,
souls leave about 40 days after death ,,they visit places they knew in life and things are revealed
like the purpose of life... Some one mentioned this to me how true or false it is.. I'm not sure though....
just repeating what was told to me...
In Christ, Alex
No. To use a rough analogy, it's like allowing non-Orthodox people to receive communion in an Orthodox church. But one is completely free to pray in one's private prayers for anyone, living or deceased, Orthodox or non-Orthodox.Robb said:Is it permissible to pray for the repose of a non Orthodox soul in Church with a Parastas or Liturgy?
Some priests will do it all the same. Their argument is that after death the deceased has received a great influx of new understanding and knowledge. A lot has taken place in terms of spiritual enlightenment. In effect he or she has become Orthodox and is of course in need of prayer just as much as anyone who was Orthodox on earth. There are no boundaries in the afterlife between those who were Orthodox and those who were not.LBK said:No. To use a rough analogy, it's like allowing non-Orthodox people to receive communion in an Orthodox church. But one is completely free to pray in one's private prayers for anyone, living or deceased, Orthodox or non-Orthodox.Robb said:Is it permissible to pray for the repose of a non Orthodox soul in Church with a Parastas or Liturgy?
Dear Gamma,GammaRay said:Someone (could have been Elder Paisios) said that 'a body without a soul, is a dead body and a soul without a body, is a ghost'. This is probably correct, but -from the way we define ghosts today- the term only stands for the first 40 days after one's death.
You can hear millions of stories about ghosts of dead people, but I believe that it's all evil spirits that do the job. And they're quite good at it, since they have convinced almost everyone, haha.
There is lots of speculation, especially from New Age types. They may just be echos or imprints of a lost life, not the actual soul or spirit.. I dunno, it's best not to think about it too hard.Robb said:So this is what happens to you when you die? You become a ghost and wander the Earth without rest? Do individual spirits choose to do this or are they commanded to by God? I suppose it beats going to Hell for all eternity but it does sound depressing.
Well, not that I particularly want to get into ghost stories, but 'ghosts' are extremely rare when you factor in the total population all who have died. You must also recall that I couched my comments in that apparitions are voluntary in nature, as in those who do not want to pass completely into the 'place of spiritual rest.' Since we do not believe heaven and hell are places so much as conditions (though they are often indicated in patristic sources as 'directions,' which have all sorts of interesting implications), we can say that the spiritual world is not utterly divorced from the material world. Even heaven and hell are given close proximity in the end of Isaiah and in the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.Robb said:So this is what happens to you when you die? You become a ghost and wander the Earth without rest? Do individual spirits choose to do this or are they commanded to by God? I suppose it beats going to Hell for all eternity but it does sound depressing.
Did you or your Uncle ever consider that it could of been his guardian angel in the form of his grandfather someone familiar so he wouldn't be frightened.....curiousMarc1152 said:There is lots of speculation, especially from New Age types. They may just be echos or imprints of a lost life, not the actual soul or spirit.. I dunno, it's best not to think about it too hard.Robb said:So this is what happens to you when you die? You become a ghost and wander the Earth without rest? Do individual spirits choose to do this or are they commanded to by God? I suppose it beats going to Hell for all eternity but it does sound depressing.
My Uncle tells a story of when he was fighting in Italy during WW 2. He was in the battle of Monte Casino. It rained for weeks on end. Our troops were in trenches a the bottom of the mountain and were suffering greatly. He swears that his grandfather ( my great grandfather) came each night an sat with him to keep him company while he took his shift on guard duty....... Who knows ??? He swears to it.
He did not and knowing him, would not.. But that is certainly possible to my own way of thinking. An Angel of Mercy sent to him for protection and consolation..stashko said:Did you or your Uncle ever consider that it could of been his guardian angel in the form of his grandfather someone familiar so he wouldn't be frightened.....curiousMarc1152 said:There is lots of speculation, especially from New Age types. They may just be echos or imprints of a lost life, not the actual soul or spirit.. I dunno, it's best not to think about it too hard.Robb said:So this is what happens to you when you die? You become a ghost and wander the Earth without rest? Do individual spirits choose to do this or are they commanded to by God? I suppose it beats going to Hell for all eternity but it does sound depressing.
My Uncle tells a story of when he was fighting in Italy during WW 2. He was in the battle of Monte Casino. It rained for weeks on end. Our troops were in trenches a the bottom of the mountain and were suffering greatly. He swears that his grandfather ( my great grandfather) came each night an sat with him to keep him company while he took his shift on guard duty....... Who knows ??? He swears to it.
FatherGiryus said:Dear Gamma,
I suppose you can believe what you would like, but I hope you will have a more open mind when it comes to actual experience.
I shared your opinion, but only up until I did numerous exorcisms without any effect one way or the other on a particular case. Now, as an Orthodox Christian and having already had some contact with the demonic, I was puzzled why exorcisms did not work. After speaking to several experts within and outside the Church, I was told exorcisms are (and a careful reading brought this to light) for demonic spirits. If the spirit is not demonic, they simply have no effect because we are asking God to remove a demon rather than a human spirit. When I switched the prayers, there was a very different outcome, as I had been advised.
Most experts agree that human spirits are not involuntarily confined. They choose to remain or return. They are generally not permitted to directly speak, but they can make their presence known and can even move small objects. They must be persuaded to leave rather than forcibly expelled like demons can be, much as we would not use an exorcism to remove a trespasser. Prayers for their passing are the most effective, but sometimes you have to declare to them that they are not welcome. In most cases they back down.
I know of no cases where they have done any harm beyond spooking folks. So, there you go...
At least we aren't discussing centaurs...![]()
Weird. :-\ For some unknown reason, that song just popped into my head today, as well.OrthodoxFairyQueen said:The funny thing, as I started reading this thread, "King of Pain" by the Police began playing on Pandora. With the music and some of the lyrics, that sure is fitting.....
Cosmas of Aetolia has spoken about the possibility of vampires(or revenants, don't know which term is more proper), for which the laography speaks to us a lot of times. This, he says, is when a dead body is possesed by an evil spirit.Does the orthodox Church admit the possibility of ghost?
My priest has always given us the impression that all those in Paradise are considered Saints, though I'm not sure how common a belief this is.philalethe00 said:But I am not sure how there can be return of the soul itself, if it is not a saint or Theotokos, who return in order to help everyone they can.Does the orthodox Church admit the possibility of ghost?
Basically, Saint Apostle Paul calls every christian of his age a saint.Simayan said:My priest has always given us the impression that all those in Paradise are considered Saints, though I'm not sure how common a belief this is.philalethe00 said:But I am not sure how there can be return of the soul itself, if it is not a saint or Theotokos, who return in order to help everyone they can.Does the orthodox Church admit the possibility of ghost?
Marc1152 said:I am an American Civil War Re-enactor. I encountered two "Ghosts" watching an artillery duel on an original battlefield site several years ago.
It was at the Cedar Mountain Battlefiled in Virgina, first week of August ( very very very hot). I had been caught between batteries of artillery putting on a demonstration ( I had gone into town and forgot it was scheduled). The ground was coming up all around me from planted explosives ( Reenactment Artillery doesn't fire real shells, just the gun powder and then a charge is set off where the shell would have landed....that is where I was ).
When I got back to camp after crawling through all this, I saw two Federal Soldiers wearing their winter great coats watching the demonstration. It was very odd that they were in their heavy coats ( I still have no idea why except sometimes dead soldiers were buried in their heavy coats)
I excitedly went up to them to tell them of my little adventure, getting caught in the middle of the artillery duel. When I went up to their backs and spoke, they.. sort of.. floated around
( not turned around with their feet and legs)..They were clearly not among the living. They were "ephemeral" ( no faces, etc.). Immediately I backed away and apologized profusely.
Okay..you say..so what.. Just my imagination maybe... Until
The next day I went to the tent of someone in my unit to wake him up ( he was only 15 so I had baby sitting duty). He was already up and looking very poorly. I said:
"Glenn, you look like ( expletive deleted). Whats wrong?"
He said: "Did you see those two guys?" ( Keep in mind there were about 6,000 re-enactors in that camp)
I replied: "Yeah, I saw them"
Glenn said: I woke up and went out of my tent to relive myself and I saw them. I got scared and went right back into the tent and I have been up all night. They sat all night long on two chairs on the company street ( the ave. between pup tents).
He didn't have to explain at all. There were over 6,000 soldiers in that camp but all he needed to say was "Did you see those two guys?"
May God rest their souls.
Well, there are a few issues here.philalethe00 said:Cosmas of Aetolia has spoken about the possibility of vampires(or revenants, don't know which term is more proper), for which the laography speaks to us a lot of times. This, he says, is when a dead body is possesed by an evil spirit.Does the orthodox Church admit the possibility of ghost?
But, regarding ghosts, the answer is not an easy one. We know from the experience of Fathers and from the after-death experiences, that there is telonism of the Soul. And that our guardian-angel "picks up" our soul, which is us basically, and tries so that we walk through every kind of telonia which is evil spirits that defamate us in order to "win" our soul and prove we're sinners etc. There are times when the soul -as ordered by God- is not ready and needs to come back. Sometimes, this happens so that there are enough witnesses of all these and people.... have dramatically changed after all these. Two or three that I know became (Orthodox) monks...
But I am not sure how there can be return of the soul itself, if it is not a saint or Theotokos, who return in order to help everyone they can. I know, for instance, that Elder Jacob of Euboea appeared at a photo that some visitor had taken at/of his desk... And of course when he took it, there was ...only (the Elder's) desk.![]()
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I think it's an important issue because so many people today are obsessed with supernatural phenomenon. If what we perceive as Ghosts are actually demons, then a different response to them is necessary, such as exorcism. But if Ghosts are human spirits that are in transition, then these souls need our prayers.ialmisry said:I don't think there is much discussion, as they would be a distraction: if they exist (which I at least think possible), so what? What in our spirituality would their existence change?
Btw, if they exist, that doesn't prove life after death: they can be somewhat of a spiritual fingerprint, something left after someone has gone.
First, what you refer to is true.FatherGiryus
Very true Selam, it is important for the Church to give real answers to fascinations that can eventually turn into something evil (occultism). Most often, individuals don't even realize exactly what they're dealing with.Gebre Menfes Kidus said:I think it's an important issue because so many people today are obsessed with supernatural phenomenon. If what we perceive as Ghosts are actually demons, then a different response to them is necessary, such as exorcism. But if Ghosts are human spirits that are in transition, then these souls need our prayers.ialmisry said:Btw, if they exist, that doesn't prove life after death: they can be somewhat of a spiritual fingerprint, something left after someone has gone.
Since we pray for the dead in Orthodoxy, I thought that perhaps this might indicate that Ghosts are real. I agree that these things can be distractions, and thus even more the reason to have a sound Orthodox theological understanding of the matter. It would be good to have solid Orthodox answers for those who are dabbling in the ocult and being led astray by an obsession with supernatural phenomenon.
Thanks Ialmisry.
Selam