what is wrong with leaving a church when you never really believed in it?

tweety234

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To me it sounds arrogant how every denomination things unless you are a member of their church you can have no salvation. And for those who were never members of their church, they say that there is salvation if they repent. But once they are members of this church, if they choose to leave they are lost forever.
 

Nephi

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tweety234 said:
To me it sounds arrogant how every denomination things unless you are a member of their church you can have no salvation. And for those who were never members of their church, they say that there is salvation if they repent. But once they are members of this church, if they choose to leave they are lost forever.
So you must not like Orthodoxy all that much then? ;)
 

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tweety234 said:
To me it sounds arrogant how every denomination things unless you are a member of their church you can have no salvation. And for those who were never members of their church, they say that there is salvation if they repent. But once they are members of this church, if they choose to leave they are lost forever.
If a church DIDNT say that, or believe it, then i want no part of it, cos why should I, if i dont have to put in the effort to belong.
 

tweety234

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TheMathematician said:
tweety234 said:
To me it sounds arrogant how every denomination things unless you are a member of their church you can have no salvation. And for those who were never members of their church, they say that there is salvation if they repent. But once they are members of this church, if they choose to leave they are lost forever.
If a church DIDNT say that, or believe it, then i want no part of it, cos why should I, if i dont have to put in the effort to belong.
What do you mean exactly? is the reason you are part of the church because they anathematize you if you leave?
 

Achronos

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tweety234 said:
TheMathematician said:
tweety234 said:
To me it sounds arrogant how every denomination things unless you are a member of their church you can have no salvation. And for those who were never members of their church, they say that there is salvation if they repent. But once they are members of this church, if they choose to leave they are lost forever.
If a church DIDNT say that, or believe it, then i want no part of it, cos why should I, if i dont have to put in the effort to belong.
What do you mean exactly? is the reason you are part of the church because they anathematize you if you leave?
If I'm understanding him correctly, if a church wasn't zealous about salvation and it alone had salvation, then what's the point of even going?

Of course from any perspective they will say such and such group will not be saved. The difference is does that denomination have any authority to say such a thing. Protestants don't have much authority, if any.

I so wish pasadi67 was around to expound on this. We need another plane analogy.
 

montalo

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tweety234 said:
TheMathematician said:
tweety234 said:
To me it sounds arrogant how every denomination things unless you are a member of their church you can have no salvation. And for those who were never members of their church, they say that there is salvation if they repent. But once they are members of this church, if they choose to leave they are lost forever.
If a church DIDNT say that, or believe it, then i want no part of it, cos why should I, if i dont have to put in the effort to belong.
What do you mean exactly? is the reason you are part of the church because they anathematize you if you leave?
(For the record, I am not yet a member of the Church, my Baptism is on Sunday)

That is not the reason why I am joining the Church, I am joining the Church because I believe it to be the sole Church that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, established, and that Orthodoxy is the faith that established the universe. However, if the Church were to say, I could achieve salvation equally as good by remaining Catholic, or becoming Protestant, then I would most assurdly be a Protestant, because of how much easier it it, without the fasting, and the dedication of life to Christ. "Where else shall we go Master, for with you is eternal life" (I forget the Gospel this comes from, let alone the verse and chapter, not to mention i got the wording wrong).


EDIT: pretty much what Achronos said above me
 

Achronos

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My favorite thing a Charasmatic youth pastor said to his group is all you need to do is believe in Jesus and you will be saved, and God will look at Jesus and not you the sinner.

It just begged the question, why even go to Church. And it's that reason why you are seeing a higher turnover rate from the youth. If all you gotta do is believe in Jesus as your savior, no point in going to church.
 

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We know where God is we do not know where God is not. I know we say this a lot but it needs to be remembered.  We do not know the status of someones soul. What we do know is the truth (Orthodoxy) and can compare it to what is taught by other denominations. This we can discuss, like salvation as a work in process not a one time event.
 

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exactly!! we believe we have the fullness of faith. we do not know the fate of anyone's soul. we know where the Holy Spirit is not where He is not.
 

Fabio Leite

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These are rigorously impossible. If one does not know where something isn't, necessarily one does not know where it is.

soderquj said:
We know where God is we do not know where God is not.
Rdunbar123 said:
we know where the Holy Spirit is not where He is not.
Plus we know pretty well that there isn't any place where God isn't. So, to say that God is also outside the Orthodox Church is to just state the obvious consequence of His Omnipresence. To be the Church is not related to God being or not being there (God is with even His enemies), but what kind of presence is there. God is everywhere, but He is not everywhere in the same way. God was in the Mount of Olives before Jesus went there bodily. But He was there in a very specific bodily way that is far more intense, while Jesus was there, without stopping being there as Spirit.

The Church is the Body of Christ. Therefore it is *not* at more than one place at the same time, it is not divided. It is one body and God is there in a way that He isn't anywhere else. I know that God is bodily in the Orthodox Church and I know that the other communities may have His love and mercy, but they are not His body.



 

tweety234

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Nephi said:
tweety234 said:
To me it sounds arrogant how every denomination things unless you are a member of their church you can have no salvation. And for those who were never members of their church, they say that there is salvation if they repent. But once they are members of this church, if they choose to leave they are lost forever.
So you must not like Orthodoxy all that much then? ;)
I don't like church. period.
 

tweety234

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Achronos said:
My favorite thing a Charasmatic youth pastor said to his group is all you need to do is believe in Jesus and you will be saved, and God will look at Jesus and not you the sinner.

It just begged the question, why even go to Church. And it's that reason why you are seeing a higher turnover rate from the youth. If all you gotta do is believe in Jesus as your savior, no point in going to church.
Look, I may have appeared to be judgemental here. I don't mean to offend anyone who might be reading my post. I understand why a person who want to go to church. I personally don't go that often unless I am called by my own conscience. When I go. I do not regret it. But it isn't that often. I have been to other churches as well. And I feel the same thing usually. It grosses me out. Not the church itself. But the behaviour of those who are in charge in it. If it was just a church with no one in it, but only a few candles and a book of prayers. I would probably spend my whole day in it. But I can't stand this, "you are only saved if you worship in a building" notion. Jesus wasn't a building. as far as I am concerned, he was a person. And people worshipped God, simply by spending time with his son Jesus. As far as preaching the Gospel. Jesus didn't have an issue with preaching on the garden of gesthemane or even at his disciples houses. These priests  however are becoming more and more arrogant by the second.
 

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Fabio Leite said:
These are rigorously impossible. If one does not know where something isn't, necessarily one does not know where it is.
Not at all. It is entirely possible to know where something is without knowing how far out it's boundaries reach. Examples would include European sailors in the early 16th century sailing to that new land mass in the West- before Magellan there was no way of knowing where South America isn't, but that didn't stop the Portuguese from having a colony in Brazil. Also, if one's family has a lot of land in the countryside and one is visiting for Christmas- while you might know exactly where the residence is, when tasked with cutting down a Christmas tree you might not know at which exact points you might be trespassing on a neighbor's. Knowing where something both is and isn't is easy with smaller objects, such as keys or a car or a house, but the larger something is, the harder it gets to determine it's exact boundaries. Can you look up into the night sky with a high power telescope and point out all the stars that are NOT in the Milky Way?
 

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Fabio Leite said:
These are rigorously impossible. If one does not know where something isn't, necessarily one does not know where it is.

soderquj said:
We know where God is we do not know where God is not.
Rdunbar123 said:
we know where the Holy Spirit is not where He is not.
Plus we know pretty well that there isn't any place where God isn't. So, to say that God is also outside the Orthodox Church is to just state the obvious consequence of His Omnipresence. To be the Church is not related to God being or not being there (God is with even His enemies), but what kind of presence is there. God is everywhere, but He is not everywhere in the same way. God was in the Mount of Olives before Jesus went there bodily. But He was there in a very specific bodily way that is far more intense, while Jesus was there, without stopping being there as Spirit.

The Church is the Body of Christ. Therefore it is *not* at more than one place at the same time, it is not divided. It is one body and God is there in a way that He isn't anywhere else. I know that God is bodily in the Orthodox Church and I know that the other communities may have His love and mercy, but they are not His body.
John 3:8
 

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Fabio Leite said:
These are rigorously impossible. If one does not know where something isn't, necessarily one does not know where it is.

soderquj said:
We know where God is we do not know where God is not.
Rdunbar123 said:
we know where the Holy Spirit is not where He is not.
Plus we know pretty well that there isn't any place where God isn't. So, to say that God is also outside the Orthodox Church is to just state the obvious consequence of His Omnipresence. To be the Church is not related to God being or not being there (God is with even His enemies), but what kind of presence is there. God is everywhere, but He is not everywhere in the same way. God was in the Mount of Olives before Jesus went there bodily. But He was there in a very specific bodily way that is far more intense, while Jesus was there, without stopping being there as Spirit.

The Church is the Body of Christ. Therefore it is *not* at more than one place at the same time, it is not divided. It is one body and God is there in a way that He isn't anywhere else. I know that God is bodily in the Orthodox Church and I know that the other communities may have His love and mercy, but they are not His body.
That is not what is meant by my quote. We know where God grace works, it is in the Orthodox Church, we do not know where Gods grace is not working.  To say God will not work outside of the Church is limiting God. This is just my humble opinion.
 

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soderquj said:
Fabio Leite said:
These are rigorously impossible. If one does not know where something isn't, necessarily one does not know where it is.

soderquj said:
We know where God is we do not know where God is not.
Rdunbar123 said:
we know where the Holy Spirit is not where He is not.
Plus we know pretty well that there isn't any place where God isn't. So, to say that God is also outside the Orthodox Church is to just state the obvious consequence of His Omnipresence. To be the Church is not related to God being or not being there (God is with even His enemies), but what kind of presence is there. God is everywhere, but He is not everywhere in the same way. God was in the Mount of Olives before Jesus went there bodily. But He was there in a very specific bodily way that is far more intense, while Jesus was there, without stopping being there as Spirit.

The Church is the Body of Christ. Therefore it is *not* at more than one place at the same time, it is not divided. It is one body and God is there in a way that He isn't anywhere else. I know that God is bodily in the Orthodox Church and I know that the other communities may have His love and mercy, but they are not His body.
That is not what is meant by my quote. We know where God grace works, it is in the Orthodox Church, we do not know where Gods grace is not working.  To say God will not work outside of the Church is limiting God. This is just my humble opinion.
I think thats what i said, at least thats what i meant.
 

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Rdunbar123 said:
Fabio Leite said:
These are rigorously impossible. If one does not know where something isn't, necessarily one does not know where it is.

soderquj said:
We know where God is we do not know where God is not.
Rdunbar123 said:
we know where the Holy Spirit is not where He is not.
Plus we know pretty well that there isn't any place where God isn't. So, to say that God is also outside the Orthodox Church is to just state the obvious consequence of His Omnipresence. To be the Church is not related to God being or not being there (God is with even His enemies), but what kind of presence is there. God is everywhere, but He is not everywhere in the same way. God was in the Mount of Olives before Jesus went there bodily. But He was there in a very specific bodily way that is far more intense, while Jesus was there, without stopping being there as Spirit.

The Church is the Body of Christ. Therefore it is *not* at more than one place at the same time, it is not divided. It is one body and God is there in a way that He isn't anywhere else. I know that God is bodily in the Orthodox Church and I know that the other communities may have His love and mercy, but they are not His body.
John 3:8
How then is one born of the Spirit?!?!?!? This question haunts me!
 

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tweety234 said:
Achronos said:
My favorite thing a Charasmatic youth pastor said to his group is all you need to do is believe in Jesus and you will be saved, and God will look at Jesus and not you the sinner.

It just begged the question, why even go to Church. And it's that reason why you are seeing a higher turnover rate from the youth. If all you gotta do is believe in Jesus as your savior, no point in going to church.
Look, I may have appeared to be judgemental here. I don't mean to offend anyone who might be reading my post. I understand why a person who want to go to church. I personally don't go that often unless I am called by my own conscience. When I go. I do not regret it. But it isn't that often. I have been to other churches as well. And I feel the same thing usually. It grosses me out. Not the church itself. But the behaviour of those who are in charge in it. If it was just a church with no one in it, but only a few candles and a book of prayers. I would probably spend my whole day in it. But I can't stand this, "you are only saved if you worship in a building" notion. Jesus wasn't a building. as far as I am concerned, he was a person. And people worshipped God, simply by spending time with his son Jesus. As far as preaching the Gospel. Jesus didn't have an issue with preaching on the garden of gesthemane or even at his disciples houses. These priests  however are becoming more and more arrogant by the second.
I have no idea which jurisdiction you belong to nor do I know the extent of your knowledge and practice of Orthodoxy. However, even at the risk of sounding judgmental, I fear that you exhibit very little knowledge and appreciation of Orthodox Christianity, if not Christianity itself. May I suggest the following approach?

Start reading the Bible regularly (keeping up with the daily appointed readings is not a bad idea to start).

Start going to church regularly, to include weekday services and Saturday vespers.

Start a regular daily prayer routine (morning and evening prayers to start).

Keep all appointed fasts, not forgetting to intensify your prayer life and to give alms.

Prepare yourself for Holy Communion, to include partaking of the Mystery of Penance as often as your father confessor requires.

Take Holy Communion regularly.

Educate yourself by taking advantage of Catechumen Classes and reading books.

After a year or so of the above approach, come back and tell us how much or little you appreciate the Church.
 

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The nice thing about showing up at a different church every week is that EVERYBODY is HAPPY to see you and treats you really nice.

Once you get embedded, then it all gets serious.   I tried that for several months, it was kind of hilarious.  After church EVERYBODY was shaking my hand, wanting to know all about us, telling us about themselves.... Heck we even got to go to the front of the line during food fellowship afterwards!

Of course, we also heard disgruntled things about people who "use to come" critiques of other members and all kind of gossip.   But we were sure welcomed!

It's kind of like a bar.   If a person who is not a regular shows up, everybody is super nice.  Until they become a regular.... Then its same ol same ol.   The only difference is at church, if you leave, you are often doomed.

So what the OP says is true.   So happy to see new people, and when the new becomes old, critical judgment and rules apply.

There have been TWO times this has not happened.

Once at a Russian Orthodox Church
Once at a Conservative Mennonite Church

It happened at just about every other church I can think of.   Messianic Jews, Mennonite, Orthodox...   You are pretty much considered "doomed" if you leave any of them.

See to many EO, since I am viewed as "juiced in" it leaves me for more critique.   But my wife's home church (where she grew up), considers me to be "okay", even though I won't partake in their sacraments or be baptized nor become a "member" of their church.

The Messianics consider this differently. (very interesting bunch BTW).   Nazarite Christians date WAY back, if not to the inception of original church in 33 A.D.   They consider me "confused but with good intent", perhaps they are right.
 

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tweety234 said:
Nephi said:
tweety234 said:
To me it sounds arrogant how every denomination things unless you are a member of their church you can have no salvation. And for those who were never members of their church, they say that there is salvation if they repent. But once they are members of this church, if they choose to leave they are lost forever.
So you must not like Orthodoxy all that much then? ;)
I don't like church. period.
How sad to be you.
 
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