What Would The Catholic Church Have To Concede?

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Fabio Leite

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This?
http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/photios_mystagogy.html

Asteriktos said:
Mor Ephrem said:
We need to accept that customs and disciplines in the Orthodox West were different from those in the East even before the schism, and so we cannot just impose our way on them, we need to let them be themselves.
Every time this subject comes up (well, probably every time) I regret getting rid of the Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit book by HTM. I remember (rightly, I hope) some quotes from St. Photius in the introduction, from letters he sent to the Pope of Rome, which basically said "You have your customs, like such-and-such, we have ours, why argue?" I don't know if it'd be as interesting as his comments in the Mystagogy about, for example, dealing with Fathers who possibly made errors, but I'd love to see it again.
 

dzheremi

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Since someone else brought up the Mozarabic liturgy, and it's one of my favorite things ever (must be my faux-Hispanicness coming out), it might interest some of you to know that, in addition to RC celebration of it in certain areas of the country, the ROCOR parish in Sevilla also celebrates this liturgy. It's no doubt not exactly the same as the RC usage (which can still be quite nice, all told; the important thing to remember with the "Mozarabic" liturgy is that all uses today are based on the 14th century 'reconstruction' of Fr. Cisneros, as the original rite had more or less died out some centuries before that at the hands of Alphonso and his successors, despite being 'allowed', with modifications, in six parishes in the country; according to all that I've read from the 1960s and onward, nobody can exactly decipher the meaning of the original 5th-9th century manuscripts due to subsequent changes in the methods of musical notation used in Spain).

This sort of thing is actually a good illustration of what I would personally like to see Rome (both old Rome and new Rome, though I know that's a non-starter for the EO majority on this board...) scale back on -- imposed liturgical uniformity. I know from my Eastern Catholic friends that a lot of what has damaged their traditions comes from communion-internal pressures to follow Rome as closely as possible in order to emphasize that these non-Latin churches are truly "Catholic". So this would involve some amount of untangling of "Catholic" from "Roman" in the minds of Catholics themselves, which none of us are likely to live to see.

And of course what Isa mentioned about the visionaries and visions and such. That stuff always bugged me, and I'm so glad I can at least be uncomfortable from a distance now. :)
 

LBK

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Michał Kalina said:
Aren't they some vagantes?
This post makes no sense. Could you please rewrite it?
 

LBK

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Michał Kalina said:
LBK said:
Michał Kalina said:
Aren't they some vagantes?
This post makes no sense. Could you please rewrite it?
Isn't "Iglesia Oriental Hispana " a vagante group?

More sense?
Thank you.

Are they vagantes? Only if ROCOR is itself a vagante group  ;). Have another look at dzeremi's post.
 

mike

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LBK said:
Michał Kalina said:
LBK said:
Michał Kalina said:
Aren't they some vagantes?
This post makes no sense. Could you please rewrite it?
Isn't "Iglesia Oriental Hispana " a vagante group?

More sense?
Thank you.

Are they vagantes? Only if ROCOR is itself a vagante group  ;). Have another look at dzeremi's post.
There are like 10 groups that claim to be ROCOR. How are you sure they are the ROCOR?
 

LBK

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Michał Kalina said:
LBK said:
Michał Kalina said:
LBK said:
Michał Kalina said:
Aren't they some vagantes?
This post makes no sense. Could you please rewrite it?
Isn't "Iglesia Oriental Hispana " a vagante group?

More sense?
Thank you.

Are they vagantes? Only if ROCOR is itself a vagante group  ;). Have another look at dzeremi's post.
There are like 10 groups that claim to be ROCOR. How are you sure they are the ROCOR?
I'm speaking on the basis of the words dzheremi posted. I haven't watched the video.
 

mike

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LBK said:
Michał Kalina said:
LBK said:
Michał Kalina said:
LBK said:
Michał Kalina said:
Aren't they some vagantes?
This post makes no sense. Could you please rewrite it?
Isn't "Iglesia Oriental Hispana " a vagante group?

More sense?
Thank you.

Are they vagantes? Only if ROCOR is itself a vagante group  ;). Have another look at dzeremi's post.
There are like 10 groups that claim to be ROCOR. How are you sure they are the ROCOR?
I'm speaking on the basis of the words dzheremi posted. I haven't watched the video.
You haven't watched the video and you discuss it. Makes sense.
 

LBK

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Michał Kalina said:
LBK said:
Michał Kalina said:
LBK said:
Michał Kalina said:
LBK said:
Michał Kalina said:
Aren't they some vagantes?
This post makes no sense. Could you please rewrite it?
Isn't "Iglesia Oriental Hispana " a vagante group?

More sense?
Thank you.

Are they vagantes? Only if ROCOR is itself a vagante group  ;). Have another look at dzeremi's post.
There are like 10 groups that claim to be ROCOR. How are you sure they are the ROCOR?
I'm speaking on the basis of the words dzheremi posted. I haven't watched the video.
You haven't watched the video and you discuss it. Makes sense.
I am not "discussing the video", I was referring to what dzheremi wrote in his post. I find him considered and accurate in his posts, so I take him at his word.

There is no need for you to be so abrasive and argumentative.
 

Fabio Leite

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Here's a list I created some time ago. I just changed some issues related to canonical organization.

What I would expect from a *true* union would be:

From the Orthodox:


Apologize for and a more outspoken condemnation of phyletism;

Acknowledgemnt that the multi-culturalism of RC is the traditional way;

Acknowledgment that the role of the primate is more than just honorific;

Abandon the idea of infallibility of Councils; councils can and have stated heresies, they can and have been reproached by other elements of the Church;

Use the expression "through the Son" after "proceeds from the Father" instead of nothing;

Deal with excessive anti-rationalism;

Translate traditional liturgical rites and use them instead of foreign language rites;

(Just changeed) Organize itself in canonical terms around the world: one city - one bishop; Archdioceses, Metropolias, Eparchies and Patriarchates are not the institutional church per se, but the local diocese is. Supra-diocesical institutions such as Archdioceses, Metropolias, Eparchies and Patriarchates have an *assistive* role for communication and organization of the local churches. The concept is that "The National Association of Hospitals" is a necessary important institution, but it is not a hospital. Each hospital has its own head-doctor and administrator who is the bishop. The Patriarch or Metropolitan is a head doctor of his own hospital, and the "President" of the "National Association", not a kind of "top-head-doctor" that can interfere in every hospital. His authority over the other head-doctors is while members of the National Association, not as head-doctors of their own hospitals. Finally, in case of union, the currently Orthodox dioceses and parishes would become Eastern Rite "ambassies" under the local Roman bishops in the West.

From the Roman church:

Apologize for and abandon the concept of infallibility of the Pope; popes can and have stated heresies, they can and have been reproached by other elements of the Church;

Abandon the monarchical model of primacy. Even if it was fit for Modern West (Medieval to Pre-WW I period) it was unfit for the East during the same period. The primate did not act as archpastor if he chose a model that was fit to just half the Church;

Use the expression "through the Son" instead of "and of the Son" after "proceeds from the Father";

Acknowledge that the Immaculate Conception is a theologumen and not a dogma;

Deal with excessive rationalism and emotionalism;

Translate traditional liturgical rites to local languages and use them instead of "modern" rites;

Allow married men to become priests;

Give the Most Pure Blood of Christ in Communion to lay people as well;

Statues are not a problem per se; yet, church imagery is not just decoration, they are tools of healing and should follow some rules. Church art cannot be over expressive, it should not immitate the body realistically, etc. etc. Church statues should be 3D icons. The artistic depictions of the West though can and should be preserved and developed, but as art, not as the tools of the hospital that is the church;

Abandon the excessive formulation of "Co-Mediatrix";

(Just added) Roman dioceses and parishes in the East would become Western Rite "ambassies" under the local bishops.



From both sides:
Reasses their lists of saints and devotions;
Become more active in the world;
Emphasys on ascetic life as the proper Christian life;
Stop condescending with worldly fashionable ideologies;
Stop condescending with criminal and/or immoral clergy;
Nor separation, nor union with the State: symphony when the State is not Anti-Christian, and outright vocal opposition when it is, if not from the people oppressed under such regimes, but from their brothers elsewhere;
Focus on Christ above all and on saints above celebrities;
 

Iconodule

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Michał Kalina said:
LBK said:
Michał Kalina said:
Aren't they some vagantes?
This post makes no sense. Could you please rewrite it?
Isn't "Iglesia Oriental Hispana " a vagante group?

More sense?
It looks like they are with the Milan Synod or some other Old Calendarist group.
 

mike

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Iconodule said:
Michał Kalina said:
LBK said:
Michał Kalina said:
Aren't they some vagantes?
This post makes no sense. Could you please rewrite it?
Isn't "Iglesia Oriental Hispana " a vagante group?

More sense?
It looks like they are with the Milan Synod or some other Old Calendarist group.
Iconodule said:
Michał Kalina said:
LBK said:
Michał Kalina said:
Aren't they some vagantes?
This post makes no sense. Could you please rewrite it?
Isn't "Iglesia Oriental Hispana " a vagante group?

More sense?
It looks like they are with the Milan Synod or some other Old Calendarist group.
Well. They claim to be under ROCOR and were under ROCOR what is proved by pictures with Bp Michael and Metr. Hilarion but their rector seem to wear omophorion now.



And ROCOR diocese of Western Europe lists only Bp Michael as its bishop. It would imply they have left.

Well, actually no idea what is he wearing.
 

sheenj

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Michał Kalina said:
On another side they are listed on diocesan directory.
But has that directory been updated since the date they (allegedly) left?
 

mike

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sheenj said:
Michał Kalina said:
On another side they are listed on diocesan directory.
But has that directory been updated since the date they (allegedly) left?
I suppose the question that should be answered is whether that purple thing he is wearing is:
a) homemade epitrachelion hence it looks like that
b) some fancy Mozarabic vestment
c) omophorion ideed.
 

Opus118

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Maria said:
I heard a Greek Orthodox priest say. "We should encourage Jews to be better Jews, and Buddhist, better Buddhists."
I like this. There must be some hidden meaning that I am not getting.

 
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