• For users new and old: the forum rules were streamlined when we transitioned to the new software. Please ensure that you are familiar with them. Continued use of the forum means that you (a) know the rules, and (b) pledge that you'll abide by them. For more information, check out the OrthodoxChristianity.Net Rules section. (There are only 2 threads there - Rules, and Administrative Structure.)

What's going on with the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Russian Patriarch Kirill?

Averoff

Jr. Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2021
Messages
41
Reaction score
17
Points
8
Location
Midwest
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Diocese of the Midwest
Constantinople appears to be pushing the prospects of one side in the Ukranian schism, while Russia backs the other side. Anybody know why Patriarch Bartholomew got involved in this? Really Byzantine in the original sense of the word.

Please use proper titles in accordance with forum rules. Thanks. —Ainnir
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Averoff

Jr. Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2021
Messages
41
Reaction score
17
Points
8
Location
Midwest
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Diocese of the Midwest
Patriarch is not proper title?
 

Asteriktos

Strategos
Joined
Oct 4, 2002
Messages
39,997
Reaction score
523
Points
113
Faith
-
Jurisdiction
-
He considers himself "the spiritual leader" of all the Orthodox in the world, so it's kind of his jam... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Averoff

Jr. Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2021
Messages
41
Reaction score
17
Points
8
Location
Midwest
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Diocese of the Midwest
Hey, I meant no disrespect. I thought Patriarch was a legitimate title. If it isn't, let me know.
 

Opus118

Protokentarchos
Site Supporter
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
4,192
Reaction score
60
Points
48
Age
70
Location
Oceanside, California
Because the Patriarchate of Constantinople is a CIA asset since Patriarch Athenagoras' times.
OK, Archbishop Athenagoras as a US citizen tried to enlist in the US army the day after the attack on Pearl Harbor. There is a picture of him and Wendell Willkie (the Republican that ran against FDR) at the draft board in the NY Times. Maybe he informed the OSS of things of interest during WWII where the atheistic USSR and hedonistic Nazi Germany initially worked together, and possibly post WWII with respect to the atheistic USSR government.

What I do not know is what you found out about H.A.H Patriarch Bartholomew.

Not to detract from the significance you found out (it is certainly relevant) the relationship between the KGB and past/current hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church are clear (look up The Mikhailov Files: Patriarch Kirill and the KGB). I will send a link if needed. I personally have no problem with this. This was a Church struggling to survive.
 

Saxon

High Elder
Warned
Post Moderated
Joined
Sep 1, 2016
Messages
641
Reaction score
179
Points
43
Age
31
Location
Canada
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
UOCC
OK, Archbishop Athenagoras as a US citizen tried to enlist in the US army the day after the attack on Pearl Harbor. There is a picture of him and Wendell Willkie (the Republican that ran against FDR) at the draft board in the NY Times. Maybe he informed the OSS of things of interest during WWII where the atheistic USSR and hedonistic Nazi Germany initially worked together, and possibly post WWII with respect to the atheistic USSR government.

What I do not know is what you found out about H.A.H Patriarch Bartholomew.

Not to detract from the significance you found out (it is certainly relevant) the relationship between the KGB and past/current hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church are clear (look up The Mikhailov Files: Patriarch Kirill and the KGB). I will send a link if needed. I personally have no problem with this. This was a Church struggling to survive.
Pope John Paul II was also a CIA asset.

Anyway, sure, Moscow was compromised by the KGB, the Romanian Orthodox Church eventually cultivated a mutually-beneficial relationship with the Ceausescu regime, while the Serbs and Bulgarians found less conspicuous ways of "getting along" with their own Cold War-era overlords. And there are still plenty of hierarchs and clergy with "dirty hands" from this time in office. It was what they had to do to avoid oblivion back then. The difference is that the EP has let itself become the tool of US foreign policy in the Balkans, Eastern Europe, and Near East. And you might be able to make the case that it isn't dissimilar to Cold War priorities - the EP exists in a country that despises any remnant of Hellenic Orthodox civilization and holds on by the skin of its teeth through monies funneled in from North America and Western Europe. Certainly some political influence flows from Washington to ensure more literal protection of the EP in return for destabilizing Russian interests in the region, with the churches perfectly situated to effect that. What Patriarch Bartholomew is presiding over is much more nefarious, given the implications for Orthodox believers in the regions concerned.
 

Menas17

Sr. Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2019
Messages
194
Reaction score
113
Points
43
Location
SE
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Antioch
The Synod of the Church of Russia is meeting in November (I think?) to decide whether or not they will formally anathematize Patriarch Bartholomew. If they do indeed decide to do this then it will be a game changer for world Orthodoxy since anathematizing is a huge deal...I mean a break in communion is one thing that is major but a formal anathema is another step.
 

Ariend

Elder
Joined
Mar 28, 2019
Messages
309
Reaction score
91
Points
28
Age
19
Location
America
Website
www.assemblyofbishops.org
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Antiochian Archdiocese of North America
The Synod of the Church of Russia is meeting in November (I think?) to decide whether or not they will formally anathematize Patriarch Bartholomew. If they do indeed decide to do this then it will be a game changer for world Orthodoxy since anathematizing is a huge deal...I mean a break in communion is one thing that is major but a formal anathema is another step.
What would be the difference between a schism and an anathema for Russian Orthodox faithful? They already can't participate in sacraments in EP parishes/monasteries (except for Saint Panteleimon Monastery in Mount Athos). I don't know how much more harm it can do.
 

Samn!

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Sep 14, 2010
Messages
1,161
Reaction score
276
Points
83
Jurisdiction
Patriarchaat van Erps-Kwerps
What would be the difference between a schism and an anathema for Russian Orthodox faithful? They already can't participate in sacraments in EP parishes/monasteries (except for Saint Panteleimon Monastery in Mount Athos). I don't know how much more harm it can do.
It would effectively require the MP to break communion with those churches that are currently in communion with both. Not to mention further opening up an ecclesiological can of worms.
 

TheTrisagion

Hoplitarches
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
17,884
Reaction score
78
Points
48
Age
42
Location
PA, USA
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Antiochian
When was the last time a Patriarch was anathematized?
 

Saxon

High Elder
Warned
Post Moderated
Joined
Sep 1, 2016
Messages
641
Reaction score
179
Points
43
Age
31
Location
Canada
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
UOCC
It would effectively require the MP to break communion with those churches that are currently in communion with both. Not to mention further opening up an ecclesiological can of worms.
Which I believe the MP, and ROCOR by extension, would be just fine with given their self-perception relative to other Orthodox jurisdictions.
 

Menas17

Sr. Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2019
Messages
194
Reaction score
113
Points
43
Location
SE
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Antioch
It would effectively require the MP to break communion with those churches that are currently in communion with both. Not to mention further opening up an ecclesiological can of worms.
Maybe we will get lucky and that wont officially happen. But, the erroneous ecclesiology of Constantinople must be stamped out before it gets much worse, right now they have been met with little actual opposition.
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,519
Reaction score
198
Points
63
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
Hey, I meant no disrespect. I thought Patriarch was a legitimate title. If it isn't, let me know.
His Eminence Bartholomew, official title is Ecumenical Patriarch.
 

Asteriktos

Strategos
Joined
Oct 4, 2002
Messages
39,997
Reaction score
523
Points
113
Faith
-
Jurisdiction
-
1054? If there is another time I can not think of it
I guess the 17th century Patriarch of Constantinople, Cyril Lucaris, was anathematized (accused of being a Calvinist). I'm a bit confused as to whether this was ever removed, or if it is has remained in some kind of ecclesiastical grey area.
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,519
Reaction score
198
Points
63
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
Maybe we will get lucky and that wont officially happen. But, the erroneous ecclesiology of Constantinople must be stamped out before it gets much worse, right now they have been met with little actual opposition.
So, It's ok with you that the newly formed Russian state, control the direction of the church?
 

RaphaCam

Patriarch of Trashposting
Joined
Oct 22, 2015
Messages
8,846
Reaction score
214
Points
63
Age
24
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Website
em-espirito-e-em-verdade.blogspot.com
Faith
Big-O Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Exarchate of Gotham City
I guess the 17th century Patriarch of Constantinople, Cyril Lucaris, was anathematized (accused of being a Calvinist). I'm a bit confused as to whether this was ever removed, or if it is has remained in some kind of ecclesiastical grey area.
He was glorified by the Church of Alexandria, so...
 

Samn!

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Sep 14, 2010
Messages
1,161
Reaction score
276
Points
83
Jurisdiction
Patriarchaat van Erps-Kwerps
I guess the 17th century Patriarch of Constantinople, Cyril Lucaris, was anathematized (accused of being a Calvinist). I'm a bit confused as to whether this was ever removed, or if it is has remained in some kind of ecclesiastical grey area.
I believe only his Confession was condemned, deliberately without attributing it to him personally, in order to save everyone embarrassment.
 

Samn!

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Sep 14, 2010
Messages
1,161
Reaction score
276
Points
83
Jurisdiction
Patriarchaat van Erps-Kwerps
Maybe we will get lucky and that wont officially happen. But, the erroneous ecclesiology of Constantinople must be stamped out before it gets much worse, right now they have been met with little actual opposition.
They've been very quietly back-pedaling on the "primus sine paribus" thing in the past couple of years. The original essay the idea appeared in is now difficult to find on EP websites and the recent pamphlet by an Athonite monk supporting the EP position in Ukraine baldly claims that the EP has never claimed to be first without equals.
 

Saxon

High Elder
Warned
Post Moderated
Joined
Sep 1, 2016
Messages
641
Reaction score
179
Points
43
Age
31
Location
Canada
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
UOCC
They've been very quietly back-pedaling on the "primus sine paribus" thing in the past couple of years. The original essay the idea appeared in is now difficult to find on EP websites and the recent pamphlet by an Athonite monk supporting the EP position in Ukraine baldly claims that the EP has never claimed to be first without equals.
In practice, it's less EP supremacy and more Hellenic supremacy, with the EP as the head of an ethnophyletist bloc that believes Greeks own Orthodoxy. The fact that most of those jurisdictions are nearly broke, and half of them exist in countries which more or less hate them and Christians in general, isn't lost on them. By contrast, Moscow is wealthy and flourishing with state support, and has used those resources to supplant the EP as that figurehead of Orthodoxy worldwide. Patriarch Bartholomew and his ilk feel threatened by that, and I think that explains what we've seen in Ukraine, as well as pronouncements concerning the EP's "supremacy". You're seeing a branch of the church in the throes of irrelevance trying to re-assert itself.
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,519
Reaction score
198
Points
63
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
In practice, it's less EP supremacy and more Hellenic supremacy, with the EP as the head of an ethnophyletist bloc that believes Greeks own Orthodoxy. The fact that most of those jurisdictions are nearly broke, and half of them exist in countries which more or less hate them and Christians in general, isn't lost on them. By contrast, Moscow is wealthy and flourishing with state support, and has used those resources to supplant the EP as that figurehead of Orthodoxy worldwide. Patriarch Bartholomew and his ilk feel threatened by that, and I think that explains what we've seen in Ukraine, as well as pronouncements concerning the EP's "supremacy". You're seeing a branch of the church in the throes of irrelevance trying to re-assert itself.
Third Rome never existed and never will. You can dream though.
 

Saxon

High Elder
Warned
Post Moderated
Joined
Sep 1, 2016
Messages
641
Reaction score
179
Points
43
Age
31
Location
Canada
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
UOCC
Third Rome never existed and never will. You can dream though.
Yeah I'm not an advocate of Russian messianism, either. I'm fed up with Orthodox ethnocentrism/phyletism in all its forms.
 

Shanghaiski

Merarches
Joined
Dec 26, 2009
Messages
8,083
Reaction score
90
Points
48
Age
42
Location
Wisconsin, USA
I guess the 17th century Patriarch of Constantinople, Cyril Lucaris, was anathematized (accused of being a Calvinist). I'm a bit confused as to whether this was ever removed, or if it is has remained in some kind of ecclesiastical grey area.
St. Cyril was not anathematized. Rather, he anathematized Roman Catholicism and Calvinism.
 

Shanghaiski

Merarches
Joined
Dec 26, 2009
Messages
8,083
Reaction score
90
Points
48
Age
42
Location
Wisconsin, USA
Yeah I'm not an advocate of Russian messianism, either. I'm fed up with Orthodox ethnocentrism/phyletism in all its forms.
At least as regards the folks who are NOT under the schismatics in Kiev, the issue is not ethnocentrism/phyletism, but about ecclesiology, particularly around the following issues mainly involving Constantinople:

1. The vestiges of the Ottoman milet system, which are outside of Orthodox canon law
2. The prerogatives Constantinople has taken to itself since the 1920s, which involve a re-interpretation of Canon 28 of Chalcedon, among other things & Constantinople's failure to act according to its traditional prerogatives as regards the Antioch-Jerusalem schism & more
3. The historical revisionism of Constantinople - even as regards the present Ecumenical Patriarch reversing his own positions
4. The structure of how the Ecumenical Patriarch is governed internally and the question of all its global affiliates
5. Orthodox ecclesiology regarding the boundaries, essence, and mission of the Church versus Constantinople's century of ecumenism (which has infected every other Local Church to some degree)
6. The Crete council disaster, which failed because Constantinople did not help to heal the already-existing schisms and pushed agendas antithetical to Orthodox ecclesiological dogma - and which council the present Ecumenical Patriarch regarded as his personal legacy, for the thwarting of which he now wants some kind of vengeance

The problem is that not every Local Church independent of Constantinople is either prepared or desirous to discuss the above issues because that would mean addressing their own departures from tradition (like Romania's strange ethnic ecclesiology) or Antioch's or Moscow's involvement in ecumenism, or the unilateral granting of autocephaly to the OCA.

Added to this, and perhaps driving this, is Constantinople's disastrous decline as a patriarchate, having lost virtually all of its flock at home. It now seeks some kind of relevance.

But probably the thing that makes this situation persist is the fact that both Constantinople and Moscow are tone-deaf. Constantinople views every opposition to it as being motivated by Russia, and vice versa. Neither will recognize that each Local Church does things for its own reasons. Constantinople and Moscow are stuck in a weird Cold War time warp of bi-polarism, which itself is completely untraditional and does not accord with Church history.

I don't think there will be an end to any of this soon. There are shockingly few people involved in the decision-making processes for Constantinople and Moscow.
 

Katechon

Elder
Joined
Nov 16, 2018
Messages
411
Reaction score
171
Points
43
Location
Germany
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
ROC-MP
But probably the thing that makes this situation persist is the fact that both Constantinople and Moscow are tone-deaf. Constantinople views every opposition to it as being motivated by Russia, and vice versa. Neither will recognize that each Local Church does things for its own reasons. Constantinople and Moscow are stuck in a weird Cold War time warp of bi-polarism, which itself is completely untraditional and does not accord with Church history.
That's a pretty disingenuous misinterpretation given the Phanars uncanonical shenanigans in the Ukraine and the points you yourself listed above.
 

Shanghaiski

Merarches
Joined
Dec 26, 2009
Messages
8,083
Reaction score
90
Points
48
Age
42
Location
Wisconsin, USA
If we cannot acknowledge the errors Moscow has made in handling the situation, then we're pretty much at an impasse. It's clear, though, that the Local Churches who support the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church under Metropolitan Onuphry are not doing so because they are Russian agents or controlled by Russia or the Moscow Patriarchate.
 

Xavier

OC.Net Guru
Warned
Post Moderated
Muted
Joined
Apr 5, 2015
Messages
1,256
Reaction score
19
Points
38
Age
33
Website
marianapostolate.com
Faith
Ecumenical Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction
The Pope - but my heart is for Re-Union!
I hope and pray the leaders of the Churches all get together in a general Council and sort their differences out. All must be one, as Christ prayed for.
 

Katechon

Elder
Joined
Nov 16, 2018
Messages
411
Reaction score
171
Points
43
Location
Germany
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
ROC-MP
If we cannot acknowledge the errors Moscow has made in handling the situation, then we're pretty much at an impasse. It's clear, though, that the Local Churches who support the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church under Metropolitan Onuphry are not doing so because they are Russian agents or controlled by Russia or the Moscow Patriarchate.
It would help your case if you'd actually be able to provide an example of what Moscow did wrong in Constantinople invading their canonical territory, instead of just making spineless assertions about "both being wrong".
 

Shanghaiski

Merarches
Joined
Dec 26, 2009
Messages
8,083
Reaction score
90
Points
48
Age
42
Location
Wisconsin, USA
It would help your case if you'd actually be able to provide an example of what Moscow did wrong in Constantinople invading their canonical territory, instead of just making spineless assertions about "both being wrong".
Your accusations are based off your own prejudice, not anything I said. Perhaps if you would try to understand where people are coming from instead of assuming that you know, and then judging them, people would be more inclined to actually discuss something with you, instead of dismissing you entirely as not worth their time.
 

Averoff

Jr. Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2021
Messages
41
Reaction score
17
Points
8
Location
Midwest
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Diocese of the Midwest
His Eminence Bartholomew, official title is Ecumenical Patriarch.
I stand corrected. Please accept that I erred out of ignorance and not intent, I meant no disrespect.
 

Saxon

High Elder
Warned
Post Moderated
Joined
Sep 1, 2016
Messages
641
Reaction score
179
Points
43
Age
31
Location
Canada
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
UOCC
Thanks to social media, I was able to follow Patriarch Bartholomew's visit to Ukraine over the past week. It consisted of many meetings an events with the OCU, the Ukrainian Catholics, and the Ukrainian government - but no meetings with, or acknowledgements of, anyone from the UOC-MP. To my knowledge, the EP still recognizes the legitimacy of the UOC-MP even if they disagree on its place, so why the snub? More of Constantinople being unable to tolerate anyone who disagrees with their opinions?
 

melkite

Sr. Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2011
Messages
241
Reaction score
40
Points
28
Age
41
Location
Maryland
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Jurisdiction
Eparchy of Newton
Thanks to social media, I was able to follow Patriarch Bartholomew's visit to Ukraine over the past week. It consisted of many meetings an events with the OCU, the Ukrainian Catholics, and the Ukrainian government - but no meetings with, or acknowledgements of, anyone from the UOC-MP. To my knowledge, the EP still recognizes the legitimacy of the UOC-MP even if they disagree on its place, so why the snub? More of Constantinople being unable to tolerate anyone who disagrees with their opinions?
Patriarch Kirill excommunicated Patriarch Bartholomew, not the other way around, so wouldn't this be more an indication of the UOC-MP snubbing the EP? Particularly if the EP still recognizes their legitimacy?

Titles added. Please use proper titles when referring to members of the hierarchy, whether it be Orthodox or Roman Catholic.
Thanks. --Ainnir
 
Last edited by a moderator:

RaphaCam

Patriarch of Trashposting
Joined
Oct 22, 2015
Messages
8,846
Reaction score
214
Points
63
Age
24
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Website
em-espirito-e-em-verdade.blogspot.com
Faith
Big-O Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Exarchate of Gotham City
Patriarch Kirill excommunicated Patriarch Bartholomew, not the other way around, so wouldn't this be more an indication of the UOC-MP snubbing the EP? Particularly if the EP still recognizes their legitimacy?
Severing communion (not excommunication) wasn't the first punch.


Titles added. --Ainnir
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Saxon

High Elder
Warned
Post Moderated
Joined
Sep 1, 2016
Messages
641
Reaction score
179
Points
43
Age
31
Location
Canada
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
UOCC
Kirill excommunicated Bartholomew, not the other way around, so wouldn't this be more an indication of the UOC-MP snubbing the EP? Particularly if the EP still recognizes their legitimacy?
They didn't excommunicate Patriarch Bartholomew. And large groups of faithful from the UOC-MP attempted to meet with him last Friday and Saturday to present a list of grievances, including outside the Ukrainian Parliament where a delegation was led by Bishop Nikolai, and he refused to meet with or acknowledge them in any way.
 

Averoff

Jr. Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2021
Messages
41
Reaction score
17
Points
8
Location
Midwest
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Diocese of the Midwest
It all makes me very sad. Christ did not interject politics into the Church, that was man's mistake. Unfortunately Ukrainian Orthodox leadership got pulled into international politics which never should have been allowed to happen. I have had great respect for and support of the Ecumenical Patriarch for many decades, I'm really confused why he is involved in this. He's in a precarious position in Turkey, but then again that office always has been in modern times. Keep world politics out of the Church, we need to come together in Christ and not look for reasons to separate each other.
 

LizaSymonenko

Hoplitarches
Staff member
Global Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
16,530
Reaction score
400
Points
83
Location
Detroit
Website
uocofusa.org
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
P. Kirill would have had to initiated the meetings. Per protocol, the MP clergy would not be permitted to "invite" Patriarch Bartholomew on their own for a meeting or gathering. However, since the MP has "excommunicated" the EP, he could not have extended an invitation.

Saxon, so who here exactly is unable to tolerate whom? I would say the MP.

I read this morning, that 49% of the MP faithful were happy that the EP was visiting, and participated in the events, with 14% being against the visit.
Let's hope it all works out soon, and love is restored between the Churches.
 

LizaSymonenko

Hoplitarches
Staff member
Global Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
16,530
Reaction score
400
Points
83
Location
Detroit
Website
uocofusa.org
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
They didn't excommunicate Patriarch Bartholomew.
Oh but, he has broken communion with the EP... so much so, that Russian Orthodox faithful have stopped attending services and events at Ukrainian Orthodox parishes. We used to have numerous Russians at our parish every Sunday, and their kids would attend our Summer Church camp... but, now, even after personally reaching out and inviting them, they refuse to come, siting that P. Kirill has forbidden them from stepping inside any EP parish.

Truly sad. Our kids were friends... and now they see us as some sort of unclean people with whom they cannot even converse.
 
Top