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What's going on with the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Russian Patriarch Kirill?

IreneOlinyk

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If anyone has more information about this upcoming meeting, I'd like to read it (I don't mind if it's in Russian)
The Holy Synod of Bishops has regular meetings but the full agenda is not normally made public beforehand. There has been no chatter about this on CredoRus. You can check here for yourself: https://credo.press/
What is your source Menas17 ?
 

IreneOlinyk

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The Holy Synod of Bishops has regular meetings but the full agenda is not normally made public beforehand. There has been no chatter about this on CredoRus. You can check here for yourself: https://credo.press/
What is your source Menas17 ?
The only other info I could find was to confirm that the Holy Synod of Bishops is meeting in Novemeber:
"The Holy Synod resolved to convene the next Bishops’ Council on 15th–18th November 2021.
In preparation for the Bishops’ Council, a plenary session of the Inter-Council Presence will be held from 26th to 28th May 2021."
The minutes of the last Holy Synod meeting are available here: http://www.patriarchia.ru/en/db/print/5742436.html
 

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I kind of hope that MP would not end up making anything that drastic. I disagree with my (EP) patriarch on this but hoping that this still be resolved somewhat peacefully.
 

Tzimis

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Your comment is disingenuous. The term ‘3rd Rome’ only had currency the early Muscovy period when C’ple was under fresh occupation by the Turk and Muscovy the only viable Orthodox Empire, nascent though it was. Vaunting ‘2nd Rome’ is as spurious and outdated. But where do we find utterance of both these anachronisms? Only from the pens of the Hellenists.
Ultimately there has always been only one Christian Rome and it was headed by st Constantine. Lucky for the west, because he was an inclusionary leader.
 

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Ultimately there has always been only one Christian Rome and it was headed by st Constantine. Lucky for the west, because he was an inclusionary leader.
The Rome in Italy had/has primacy in church matters, even contemporary Phanar acknowledges that. I don’t understand your assertion.
 

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If anyone has more information about this upcoming meeting, I'd like to read it (I don't mind if it's in Russian)
I was told that the formerly very nice but not so chill now Metr. Hilarion Alfeyev has intimated that Moscow will be expecting the OCA to take a stand (Moscow’s stand) if/when they do anathematize EP Bartholomew.

This expectation seems about as doomed to frustration as Abp. Elpidophoros‘ waiting for the OCA to become part of the GOA. Like neither he nor Metr. Hilarion asked themselves what would be in it the OCA. They both live in silos.
 

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I think I had another mini-stroke at the theater the other day.

This thread is giving me the same sensations.
 

Tzimis

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The Rome in Italy had/has primacy in church matters, even contemporary Phanar acknowledges that. I don’t understand your assertion.
Church matters were always synodal in the east and the only reason the pope existed was a political move to leave the west absent of an emperor. In order to control the west from succession. The pope was the west's emperor.
 

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I kind of hope that MP would not end up making anything that drastic. I disagree with my (EP) patriarch on this but hoping that this still be resolved somewhat peacefully.
It's not going to be resolved peacefully, nor at all, I think. This is a power struggle, with one church on the brink of extinction trying to claw its way back to influence, not a simple jurisdictional dispute. Add in the fact that there are geopolitical implications, with political actors sticking their noses into the mix, and we have a very serious problem.

I was told that the formerly very nice but not so chill now Metr. Hilarion Alfeyev has intimated that Moscow will be expecting the OCA to take a stand (Moscow’s stand) if/when they do anathematize EP Bartholomew.

This expectation seems about as doomed to frustration as Abp. Elpidophoros‘ waiting for the OCA to become part of the GOA. Like neither he nor Metr. Hilarion asked themselves what would be in it the OCA. They both live in silos.
It's unfortunate, but the OCA isn't respected, and the fact that Moscow now expects it to tow the line shows they don't really take that autocephaly very seriously. The OCA should support Moscow because it's the right thing to do, and not just because of Ukraine, but because the EP is threatening synodality and the independence of each Orthodox jurisdiction.

But I don't see that as the same as the EP literally trying to blackmail other jurisdictions into recognizing the OCU. See their threats to legitimize schismatics in Macedonia and Montenegro as payback for Serbia's support of Moscow, and attempts to overthrow the hierarchs of the Czech and Slovak Church.
 

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It's not going to be resolved peacefully, nor at all, I think. This is a power struggle, with one church on the brink of extinction trying to claw its way back to influence, not a simple jurisdictional dispute. Add in the fact that there are geopolitical implications, with political actors sticking their noses into the mix, and we have a very serious problem.
It will be unfortunate, I think, if Moscow comes out on top of this. On the one hand, practically speaking, perhaps Moscow should be the first among equals in Orthodoxy now, since over half of the world's Orthodox are somehow tied to the Russian church. But I think it would be bad for Orthodoxy in the long run, because it will give the idea that Orthodoxy is a peculiarly Russian institution, and you already have to deal with the idea among those outside of the Orthodox world that Orthodoxy is only for people of certain ethnic groups.
 

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it will give the idea that Orthodoxy is a peculiarly Russian institution, and you already have to deal with the idea among those outside of the Orthodox world that Orthodoxy is only for people of certain ethnic groups.
Exactly.. even right now, people associate Orthodox Christianity with ethnicity, especially with the Greek and Russian ethnicities. This ethnic association will be no different if the Russian Orthodox Church becomes the de factor primus inter pares. Though from my observation (at least in America), Russian Orthodox churches are better at disassociating their ethnicity from Orthodoxy than Greek Orthodox churches (this is evident with the fact that there are a lot of Russian Orthodox monasteries that have mostly English in their services, while all Greek Orthodox monasteries remain all-Greek in their services).
 

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It will be unfortunate, I think, if Moscow comes out on top of this. On the one hand, practically speaking, perhaps Moscow should be the first among equals in Orthodoxy now, since over half of the world's Orthodox are somehow tied to the Russian church. But I think it would be bad for Orthodoxy in the long run, because it will give the idea that Orthodoxy is a peculiarly Russian institution, and you already have to deal with the idea among those outside of the Orthodox world that Orthodoxy is only for people of certain ethnic groups.
Exactly.. even right now, people associate Orthodox Christianity with ethnicity, especially with the Greek and Russian ethnicities. This ethnic association will be no different if the Russian Orthodox Church becomes the de factor primus inter pares. Though from my observation (at least in America), Russian Orthodox churches are better at disassociating their ethnicity from Orthodoxy than Greek Orthodox churches (this is evident with the fact that there are a lot of Russian Orthodox monasteries that have mostly English in their services, while all Greek Orthodox monasteries remain all-Greek in their services).
I agree with both of you. This is why the Orthodox Church specifically condemned ethnophyletism as a heresy. In practice, however, it remains rampant, and unfortunately its fruits are exactly the kind of division under discussion. Neither the Greeks nor the Russians "own" Orthodoxy. We need a comprehensive and binding council to mitigate this, but neither Constantinople nor Moscow will humble themselves to that extent.
 

LizaSymonenko

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I see the Russian embrace the way Laibach sings about it in their dèrivé of the Russian Anthem, Rossiya

While you are canvassing Ukrainian opinions of that bear-hug, also consult the Georgians.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
 

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This is why I hope against hope we will someday see churches someday identified, on their signage, as, “Church of Saint (Whomever), Country (X), Languages Spoken: (this one and so on).”

Under that, perhaps, put “All people welcome.”

For we are all one in Christ Jesus, are we not?

I don’t know much, but this might help a tiny bit.
 

LizaSymonenko

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This is why I hope against hope we will someday see churches someday identified, on their signage, as, “Church of Saint (Whomever), Country (X), Languages Spoken: (this one and so on).”

Under that, perhaps, put “All people welcome.”

For we are all one in Christ Jesus, are we not?

I don’t know much, but this might help a tiny bit.
At my parish, everyone IS welcome. We use both Ukrainian and English... and have never turned anyone away, or not made them feel welcome... (except the one crotchety man in the back who gives the evil eye to all the parents who have noisy kids.)
 

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Church matters were always synodal in the east and the only reason the pope existed was a political move to leave the west absent of an emperor. In order to control the west from succession. The pope was the west's emperor.
Ok, not controversial. So where are we going with this?
 

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But I think it would be bad for Orthodoxy in the long run, because it will give the idea that Orthodoxy is a peculiarly Russian institution, and you already have to deal with the idea among those outside of the Orthodox world that Orthodoxy is only for people of certain ethnic groups.
Nope. It will give the idea nobody nowhere no matter their status can run over tradition of the Church. The Church and her tradition is more important than individual hierarchs or their ambitions. Nobody should have universal jurisdiction.
 

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It's not going to be resolved peacefully, nor at all, I think. This is a power struggle, with one church on the brink of extinction trying to claw its way back to influence, not a simple jurisdictional dispute. Add in the fact that there are geopolitical implications, with political actors sticking their noses into the mix, and we have a very serious problem.



It's unfortunate, but the OCA isn't respected, and the fact that Moscow now expects it to tow the line shows they don't really take that autocephaly very seriously. The OCA should support Moscow because it's the right thing to do, and not just because of Ukraine, but because the EP is threatening synodality and the independence of each Orthodox jurisdiction.

But I don't see that as the same as the EP literally trying to blackmail other jurisdictions into recognizing the OCU. See their threats to legitimize schismatics in Macedonia and Montenegro as payback for Serbia's support of Moscow, and attempts to overthrow the hierarchs of the Czech and Slovak Church.
The newly-departed Apr. Leonid Kishkovsky told me at an AAC that Moscow was trying to rescind the OCA Tomos as early as the 1990s. Their big hope was Metr. Jonah who told me, “everything, including the Tomos, is on the table.” This statement with which he was so free, probably contributed to his short tenure as Primate.

You are correct that Moscow doesn’t much respect the Tomos they so freely gave the OCA in 1970, or rather they don’t respect the Autocephaly they established by it. The instability caused by Mets. Herman and Jonah did not help matters, but the smooth sailing since wrought by Metr. Tikhon has helped the case of the OCA among muscovites. They tried to intimidate our External Relations Head, Abp. Alexander but he handily outclassed the punters who have only Russian language (nobles like Golitizin have used French since the XVIII c.). So perhaps the days of the OCA’s inferiority complex as expressed by too humble Primates Lazor and Swaiko, and the too readily impressed by red carpets Paffhausen, are behind us. But in the present international moment, Moscow’s attitude toward us is different.

Now ROCOR’s mission, ’to preserve the icon of Holy Russia‘ (verbatim to me of SF Diocese Chancellor Karakozov) which seemed absurd even 15 years ago has a new lease on life, especially among social-political ‘secessionists’ (maybe 5th columnists) so abundant among neophytes these days who like to talk about how ungodly democracy is. As Sarah Riccardi-Swartz says in a recent article, a monk at Holy Cross Monastery in Wayne, WV whom she was interviewing about their icon prints volunteered, apropos of nothing she asked, that ‘only Russia can save the world’. The sociologist thence embarked on a yearlong study of attitudes among parishioners in the town‘s ROCOR parish to discover that among the educated professionals who’ve moved to the small Appalachian town near the monastery, extreme attitudes tantamount to a ‘political apostasy’ from typically American liberal-to-conservative are prevalent.

ROCOR remains small potatoes compared to the OCA, which is small compared to the GOA. But ROCOR, according to Alexei Krindach’s surveys, is one of the only Eastern Orthodox jurisdictions in America that is growing, while GOA is losing people at a high rate. We may be seeing a sea change in Orthodox demographics taking place, with heavy attrition of ethnic affiliation and growth among neophyte Orthodox Christian Identitarians.
 

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ROCOR remains small potatoes compared to the OCA, which is small compared to the GOA. But ROCOR, according to Alexei Krindach’s surveys, is one of the only Eastern Orthodox jurisdictions in America that is growing, while GOA is losing people at a high rate. We may be seeing a sea change in Orthodox demographics taking place, with heavy attrition of ethnic affiliation and growth among neophyte Orthodox Christian Identitarians.
Which other ones are growing?
 

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The newly-departed Apr. Leonid Kishkovsky told me at an AAC that Moscow was trying to rescind the OCA Tomos as early as the 1990s. Their big hope was Metr. Jonah who told me, “everything, including the Tomos, is on the table.” This statement with which he was so free, probably contributed to his short tenure as Primate.

You are correct that Moscow doesn’t much respect the Tomos they so freely gave the OCA in 1970, or rather they don’t respect the Autocephaly they established by it. The instability caused by Mets. Herman and Jonah did not help matters, but the smooth sailing since wrought by Metr. Tikhon has helped the case of the OCA among muscovites. They tried to intimidate our External Relations Head, Abp. Alexander but he handily outclassed the punters who have only Russian language (nobles like Golitizin have used French since the XVIII c.). So perhaps the days of the OCA’s inferiority complex as expressed by too humble Primates Lazor and Swaiko, and the too readily impressed by red carpets Paffhausen, are behind us. But in the present international moment, Moscow’s attitude toward us is different.

Now ROCOR’s mission, ’to preserve the icon of Holy Russia‘ (verbatim to me of SF Diocese Chancellor Karakozov) which seemed absurd even 15 years ago has a new lease on life, especially among social-political ‘secessionists’ (maybe 5th columnists) so abundant among neophytes these days who like to talk about how ungodly democracy is. As Sarah Riccardi-Swartz says in a recent article, a monk at Holy Cross Monastery in Wayne, WV whom she was interviewing about their icon prints volunteered, apropos of nothing she asked, that ‘only Russia can save the world’. The sociologist thence embarked on a yearlong study of attitudes among parishioners in the town‘s ROCOR parish to discover that among the educated professionals who’ve moved to the small Appalachian town near the monastery, extreme attitudes tantamount to a ‘political apostasy’ from typically American liberal-to-conservative are prevalent.

ROCOR remains small potatoes compared to the OCA, which is small compared to the GOA. But ROCOR, according to Alexei Krindach’s surveys, is one of the only Eastern Orthodox jurisdictions in America that is growing, while GOA is losing people at a high rate. We may be seeing a sea change in Orthodox demographics taking place, with heavy attrition of ethnic affiliation and growth among neophyte Orthodox Christian Identitarians.
And GOARCH "preserving the timeless values of Hellenism" (literally, word-for-word on the official website). Never mind the argument that Holy Russia was never really a thing (and it wasn't - neither was Holy Byzantium or symphonia), but these are, again, manifestations of ethnophyletism.

The OCA is the future for North America because it's the only jurisdiction that rejects all of the ethnocultural cleavages that are hindering the growth of North American Orthodoxy by crystalizing it as a mosaic of shrinking ethnic clubs. I don't have the actual numbers, but I would wager that a plurality of converts end up there, and I personally know of many "cradle" Orthodox who have also joined because they appreciate the focus on the faith instead of language and dance classes. I think a lot of the hostility/denigration/mockery I've heard directed towards the OCA by members of other jurisdictions (my old ROCOR priest was extremely venomous in that respect) is rooted in a nervous apprehension over the decline of ethnic jurisdictions in favour of a more localized, faith-driven Orthodoxy. And I bet GOARCH in particular is fretting about the shifting balance and what it will mean for the EP's coffers as their own parishes shrink.

Which other ones are growing?
In North America I think the Antiochians are, as they've been especially accommodating of converts and, next to the OCA, are probably the most effective at repudiating ethnic distinctions.
 

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And GOARCH "preserving the timeless values of Hellenism" (literally, word-for-word on the official website). Never mind the argument that Holy Russia was never really a thing (and it wasn't - neither was Holy Byzantium or symphonia), but these are, again, manifestations of ethnophyletism.

The OCA is the future for North America because it's the only jurisdiction that rejects all of the ethnocultural cleavages that are hindering the growth of North American Orthodoxy by crystalizing it as a mosaic of shrinking ethnic clubs. I don't have the actual numbers, but I would wager that a plurality of converts end up there, and I personally know of many "cradle" Orthodox who have also joined because they appreciate the focus on the faith instead of language and dance classes. I think a lot of the hostility/denigration/mockery I've heard directed towards the OCA by members of other jurisdictions (my old ROCOR priest was extremely venomous in that respect) is rooted in a nervous apprehension over the decline of ethnic jurisdictions in favour of a more localized, faith-driven Orthodoxy. And I bet GOARCH in particular is fretting about the shifting balance and what it will mean for the EP's coffers as their own parishes shrink.



In North America I think the Antiochians are, as they've been especially accommodating of converts and, next to the OCA, are probably the most effective at repudiating ethnic distinctions.
Couldn’t agree more. To me, Anglo-American convert, the OCA has always been the only viable Orthodox jurisdiction worthy of my loyalty. I just can’t see a ξένος having any common plight with Phanariotism or Russian Messianism. The increasing untenability of the Phanar makes them ever more unreliable from the perspective of these shores. Abp. Elpidophoros actually told his clergy in Long Beach, CA two years ago that the OCA would soon be joining his jurisdictional administration, I suppose he believes his own sweet daydreams or just makes up stuff… because, Your M&Ms, it just ain’t gonna happen. Likewise Metr. Hilarion is just being creatively ultra-loyal imagining our Synod would side with Moscow’s to alienate the largest jurisdiction of Orthodox churches on the continent. They both are blinded and have nothing in particular to offer Americans looking for just Church.

But… the bloom is off the rose of Americanism. The last 5 years have shown that in spades. This isn‘t necessarily a bad thing from an Orthodox perspective, but it has bizarre side-effects like those charted by Riccardi-Swartz, whose book will come out next April. We live in interesting times.
 

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Ok, not controversial. So where are we going with this?
I don't know, but it seems you want an American orthodox church. So you are bashing other cultures instead of getting 3 bishops that agree with you and starting one.
Then once you become large enough, where the EP cant ignore you any longer.
He could grant you a tomos.
 

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Do they treat you like a xenos (stranger)?
I guess thats what happens when someone enters a long established church and a few weeks later, has ideas of how to change thing around. :)
 

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How in the world could a tomos be rescinded?
The OCA is the future for North America because it's the only jurisdiction that rejects all of the ethnocultural cleavages that are hindering the growth of North American Orthodoxy by crystalizing it as a mosaic of shrinking ethnic clubs. I don't have the actual numbers, but I would wager that a plurality of converts end up there, and I personally know of many "cradle" Orthodox who have also joined because they appreciate the focus on the faith instead of language and dance classes.
I agree, and out of all the American Orthodox jurisdictions (GOARCH, Antiochian Archdiocese, OCA, ROCOR, etc), the only jurisdiction I can think of where its head bishop is actually American is OCA, with Metropolitan Tikhon. I just think that's the sign of a natural, full church, along with the fact that it has dozens of monasteries. Even though I fully believe the other jurisdictions of America are equally a part of Christ's Church, they are in no way ecclesiastically natural. Father Josiah Trenham made a good video about the unnaturality of the ecclesiastical governance of Orthodoxy in America:


But now I'm curious why Antiochian/ROCOR/GOARCH priests who believe it is a "tremendous evil" to remain divided in America decided to not join the OCA.

Also this is random, but the GOARCH's ethnophyletism has even affected the memorial service at Saint Nicholas Orthodox Church in the World Trade Center that happened a few days ago. It was a beautiful service, but nobody could understand the first third or so of the service. Why? Because it was in Greek. Imagine how much more impactful it would be to the American people if they did the entire memorial service in English. But nope.
 

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Also this is random, but the GOARCH's ethnophyletism has even affected the memorial service at Saint Nicholas Orthodox Church in the World Trade Center that happened a few days ago. It was a beautiful service, but nobody could understand the first third or so of the service. Why? Because it was in Greek. Imagine how much more impactful it would be to the American people if they did the entire memorial service in English. But nope.
What an opportunity lost. Grieves my heart so much. Totally clueless from the top down.
 

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GOARCH speaks in Greek half the time because they’re Greek-American. Wonder if you knew that.

Being bilingual is a good thing. When I was Roman Catholic, we had some hymns in Spanish, and it didn’t really bother me.
 

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GOARCH speaks in Greek half the time because they’re Greek-American. Wonder if you knew that.

Being bilingual is a good thing. When I was Roman Catholic, we had some hymns in Spanish, and it didn’t really bother me.
They’re Americans clinging to an identity that’s dissipating with each passing generation. With respect to St. Nicholas Church at Ground Zero, as the only house of worship destroyed and rebuilt, the opening ceremony was a unique opportunity to demonstrate Orthodoxy as an integral part of the fabric of American identity. Instead, it was presented as foreign pageantry.

Greek-language church services at perfectly fine - in Greece.
 

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They’re Americans clinging to an identity that’s dissipating with each passing generation. With respect to St. Nicholas Church at Ground Zero, as the only house of worship destroyed and rebuilt, the opening ceremony was a unique opportunity to demonstrate Orthodoxy as an integral part of the fabric of American identity. Instead, it was presented as foreign pageantry.

Greek-language church services at perfectly fine - in Greece.
Thats fine if it was your money that built it. ;)
 

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If bankruptcies and sordid legal proceedings are anything to go by, it’s pretty hard to determine how money comes and goes in GOARCH. ;)
Im sure most of the short falls went to political contributions in order to get done.
It just can't be publicly said. Americans love to greet you with there palm facing up.
 

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I don't know, but it seems you want an American orthodox church. So you are bashing other cultures instead of getting 3 bishops that agree with you and starting one.
Then once you become large enough, where the EP cant ignore you any longer.
He could grant you a tomos.
So you are the last person to ever hear of the OCA.
 
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How in the world could a tomos be rescinded?

I agree, and out of all the American Orthodox jurisdictions (GOARCH, Antiochian Archdiocese, OCA, ROCOR, etc), the only jurisdiction I can think of where its head bishop is actually American is OCA, with Metropolitan Tikhon. I just think that's the sign of a natural, full church, along with the fact that it has dozens of monasteries. Even though I fully believe the other jurisdictions of America are equally a part of Christ's Church, they are in no way ecclesiastically natural.

But now I'm curious why Antiochian/ROCOR/GOARCH priests who believe it is a "tremendous evil" to remain divided in America decided to not join the OCA.

Also this is random, but the GOARCH's ethnophyletism has even affected the memorial service at Saint Nicholas Orthodox Church in the World Trade Center that happened a few days ago. It was a beautiful service, but nobody could understand the first third or so of the service. Why? Because it was in Greek. Imagine how much more impactful it would be to the American people if they did the entire memorial service in English. But nope.
Just as there is no historically established rule of giving a Tomos, there really aren’t any rules governing trying to take one back. But let them. It’s too late, the Local Church has been established.

What you wrote above about the μνημόσυνο at St. Nicholas Shrine is spot-on. Fr. Karlousos et. al. talk of being a ‘Light unto the nations’ and a ‘house of prayer for all peoples’ and then do most of the service in an exclusive ethnic fashion. Great work there! Gonna prove the universality of Hellenism!
 

FULK NERA

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It all depends on the legitimacy of the one who imposed it.
Moscow can give part of its church autocephaly. No one can stop them by citing tendentious opinions of bad theologians.
 

Tzimis

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Moscow can give part of its church autocephaly. No one can stop them by citing tendentious opinions of bad theologians.
Sounds like the last words of Luther
Moscow can give part of its church autocephaly. No one can stop them by citing tendentious opinions of bad theologians.
Funny how you discredit established churches and in the same breath hinge your existence on them.
 

Tzimis

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Moscow can give part of its church autocephaly. No one can stop them by citing tendentious opinions of bad theologians.
So the canons and a long standing tradition mean nothing to you?
 

Tzimis

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So... is/was the Russian Orthodox Church not legitimate?
Things take time to materialize. Luther's actions took centuries to unfold.
 
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