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What's going on with the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Russian Patriarch Kirill?

Tzimis

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Your hectoring is obnoxious.
Well, lets see. New member starts posting negative comments towards foreign nationals and their hierarchy. Then expects to be treated with civility.
What a surprise. Welcome to the forum. :)
 

Saxon

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Well, lets see. New member starts posting negative comments towards foreign nationals and their hierarchy. Then expects to be treated with civility.
What a surprise. Welcome to the forum. :)
GOARCH isn't comprised of foreign nationals. It's comprised of Americans.
 

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Well, lets see. New member starts posting negative comments towards foreign nationals and their hierarchy. Then expects to be treated with civility.
What a surprise. Welcome to the forum. :)
I agree with Saxon... they are Americans, predominantly of Greek heritage.

If you look at the Gospel... there are these chapters composed of letters the Apostles wrote to various Churches and peoples... the Romans, Corinthians, etc. These holy men realized that people do belong to various nations, are bonded to their heritage and customs, and love their own people. Therefore, they wrote these letters aimed at the distinct needs of each one individually.

In other words, it was clear that people were divided by nationality, language, customs... and the Apostles did not try to do away with these, but, tried to reach the people where they were.

Therefore, Greek is not bad. Nor is Russian, or Ukrainian, or Serbian, Romanian, Macedonian, Bulgarian.... American...

All are good... all are made by God, and permitted to exist through His Grace.

So let us not disparage anyone's nationality, race, or heritage... but, instead try to understand this human propensity and work with it, to bring all nations and peoples to salvation.
 

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New creatures; citizens with a kingdom not of this world.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink [a]into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
 
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Tzimis

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GOARCH isn't comprised of foreign nationals. It's comprised of Americans.
What's the stereotypical American? A Saxon?
So your using your persona as the standard for being America.
Correct?
 

Tzimis

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I agree with Saxon... they are Americans, predominantly of Greek heritage.

If you look at the Gospel... there are these chapters composed of letters the Apostles wrote to various Churches and peoples... the Romans, Corinthians, etc. These holy men realized that people do belong to various nations, are bonded to their heritage and customs, and love their own people. Therefore, they wrote these letters aimed at the distinct needs of each one individually.

In other words, it was clear that people were divided by nationality, language, customs... and the Apostles did not try to do away with these, but, tried to reach the people where they were.

Therefore, Greek is not bad. Nor is Russian, or Ukrainian, or Serbian, Romanian, Macedonian, Bulgarian.... American...

All are good... all are made by God, and permitted to exist through His Grace.

So let us not disparage anyone's nationality, race, or heritage... but, instead try to understand this human propensity and work with it, to bring all nations and peoples to salvation.
The largest ethnic group in the United States is German.
So you want me to become a German who speaks English?
 
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So you want me to become a German who speaks English?
There is no stereotypical American was my point. Most Americans are of German descent but there is no ethnic enclaves of pure German cultures. The Lutheran churches don't use German.
 

Tzimis

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There is no stereotypical American was my point. Most Americans are of German descent but there is no ethnic enclaves of pure German cultures. The Lutheran churches don't use German.
I get you, It is easier to hear things in you own language. But, there is a problem doing that and its tradition. The bible and liturgy was handed down to us in Greek and its about keeping things just as they were 2000 years ago. That's why the liturgy is in ancient Greek and not modern Greek.
You don't think Greeks would rather hear it in modern Greek?
 

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I get you, It is easier to hear things in you own language. But, there is a problem doing that and its tradition. The bible and liturgy was handed down to us in Greek and its about keeping things just as they were 2000 years ago. That's why the liturgy is in ancient Greek and not modern Greek.
You don't think Greeks would rather hear it in modern Greek?
The Greeks translated the liturgy and Bible into Slavonic when they spread Christianity to the Slavs because they wanted them to be in the local language.

If Greek Americans did not know Greek, then a similar justification could serve to put the GOARCH liturgy over 90% into English.

Personally, I prefer a mix of English plus a second language like Greek or Slavonic in the liturgy, such as 1/3 of one language and 2/3 of the other.
 

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I love the mix. I've visited countless parishes... and I thoroughly enjoyed the uniqueness of each... and never felt "lost" during the Liturgy.
 

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The Greeks translated the liturgy and Bible into Slavonic when they spread Christianity to the Slavs because they wanted them to be in the local language.

If Greek Americans did not know Greek, then a similar justification could serve to put the GOARCH liturgy over 90% into English.

Personally, I prefer a mix of English plus a second language like Greek or Slavonic in the liturgy, such as 1/3 of one language and 2/3 of the other.
I think it going to happen on it's own over time. Actually it's happening already. Greek aren't migrating from Europe in great numbers any longer and the one's that are here will integrate.
 

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I think it going to happen on it's own over time. Actually it's happening already. Greek aren't migrating from Europe in great numbers any longer and the one's that are here will integrate.
The great-grandkids would have to learn a strong level of Greek in church schools to at least the level of normal 3rd year Highschool Spanish. De Facto, it looks like it isn't going to happen. I had two years of Highschool Spanish y paraceme bastante elementario en mi nivel. I can't remember how to say "knowledge" in Spanish.
 

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I think it going to happen on it's own over time. Actually it's happening already. Greek aren't migrating from Europe in great numbers any longer and the one's that are here will integrate.
The re-phanariotization of GOARCH is so far advanced that they will never elect another American born bishop at this rate. Metr. Isaiah is the only suffragan American left. It‘s ever more about the exigencies and prerogatives of the Phanar, expressed in overweeningly foreign forms and language. Much of it is not even traditional, like the elimination of Subdeaconate and the intense involvement of Archons in affairs of governance and finance. GOARCH is sure to make no gesture that even suggests nativization, extending to a policy of non-recognition of local saints. There are so many other dimensions to this, including the Phanar’s abrogation, or ‘putting into abeyance’ of the Archdiocesan Charter. I’m not sure that’s even legal according to US Corporate Law.
 

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The great-grandkids would have to learn a strong level of Greek in church schools to at least the level of normal 3rd year Highschool Spanish. De Facto, it looks like it isn't going to happen. I had two years of Highschool Spanish y paraceme bastante elementario en mi nivel. I can't remember how to say "knowledge" in Spanish.
Totally agree with you, but the Greek parents are pretty determined to beat the system. Hopefully they succeed where others have failed.
Either way, it isn't correct to assume that ones version of "American" should be universal. Bullies often push there ideals onto others because it's convenient for themselves and that's the impression I'm against.
 

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The great-grandkids would have to learn a strong level of Greek in church schools to at least the level of normal 3rd year Highschool Spanish. De Facto, it looks like it isn't going to happen. I had two years of Highschool Spanish y paraceme bastante elementario en mi nivel. I can't remember how to say "knowledge" in Spanish.
Ostensibly Greek parishioners I know have no fluency in the language, especially with words in the ecclesiastical technical vocabulary necessary for theology and worship. There is a small cadre of cultural Greeks who concern themselves with church matters amid the larger number who speak Greek but are largely unchurched. The focus of GOARCH is to keep people Hellenes.
 

Tzimis

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The re-phanariotization of GOARCH is so far advanced that they will never elect another American born bishop at this rate. Metr. Isaiah is the only suffragan American left. It‘s ever more about the exigencies and prerogatives of the Phanar, expressed in overweeningly foreign forms and language. Much of it is not even traditional, like the elimination of Subdeaconate and the intense involvement of Archons in affairs of governance and finance. GOARCH is sure to make no gesture that even suggests nativization, extending to a policy of non-recognition of local saints. There are so many other dimensions to this, including the Phanar’s abrogation, or ‘putting into abeyance’ of the Archdiocesan Charter. I’m not sure that’s even legal according to US Corporate Law.
This isn't true. I know plenty of American born Bishops.
 

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The great-grandkids would have to learn a strong level of Greek in church schools to at least the level of normal 3rd year Highschool Spanish. De Facto, it looks like it isn't going to happen. I had two years of Highschool Spanish y paraceme bastante elementario en mi nivel. I can't remember how to say "knowledge" in Spanish.
Ostensibly Greek parishioners I know have no fluency in the language, especially with words in the ecclesiastical technical vocabulary necessary for theology and worship. There is a small cadre of cultural Greeks who concern themselves with church matters amid the larger number who speak Greek but are largely unchurched. The focus of GOARCH is to keep people Hellenes. I find people of no particular description who join the Orthodox Church often have a much stronger sense of their involvement in the nitty-gritty of the faith than those who identify as Hellenes because the latter often substitutes for the former.

Extensive efforts on the part of the ministries of GOARCH to inculcate Orthodox praxis and build up an educated laity seem hampered by the overweening (that word again!) insistence on hellenism, which as pointed out above, is intrinsic and explicit to the mission of GOARCH.

I knew a Georgian priest who was trying to build a mission of expats for his newly-arrived jurisdiction on the West Coast. He was expending so much energy on trying to keep these emigres’ kids Georgian amd it was a losing battle, because kids instinctively know survival depends on assimilation. He had no talent at teaching the basics of Christian faith, relying on culturally-embedded expressions, trusting they would convey the Orthodox ethos better. I suppose he just had no education by which to effect that. It was sad to see, because the outcome is manifest across all ethnicities who’ve made a home in America. The nativized offspring see the faith as a cliche of their emigre parents’ culture and define themselves against it. They become Jehovah’s Witnesses or Baptists instead. This loss gets repeated over and over again and there is no cultural learning going on across boundaries of ethnicity. I can tell you about some Bulgarians and Romanians too. Greeks are not exempt; some 90% of descendants of Greek emigres are not members of GOARCH parishes today.
 

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Ostensibly Greek parishioners I know have no fluency in the language, especially with words in the ecclesiastical technical vocabulary necessary for theology and worship. There is a small cadre of cultural Greeks who concern themselves with church matters amid the larger number who speak Greek but are largely unchurched. The focus of GOARCH is to keep people Hellenes.
I was talking with a Greek American priest who belongs to ROCOR who told me that around the 1950's under Bp. Iakovos the GOARCH seminary was taking an attitude of branch theory toward Episcopalians, as if they are both practically legitimate churches and that the policy was that if there was no EO Church within a GOARCH member's traveling distance, that the person should attend the Episcopalian Church. Then after decades the membership of GOARCH drained away into non-Orthodox churches. He said that in his graduating year at a GOARCH seminary (1950's-1960's), Fr. Romanides got forced out of teaching at his seminary along with a decent fraction of the Greek students in his graduating class because they weren't conforming to the new policy course in GOARCH (eg. priests in his diocese had to cut their beards as an unofficial policy, non-fasting food was given at seminary, etc.). He said that GOARCHhas more recently been in the process of rediscovering Orthodoxy (probably an overstatement with a grain of truth).

I don't know how common this attitude was in the OCA/Metropolia in the early/mid-20th century. Patriarch Tikhon studied for some time at an Episcopalian institute in the US in the early 20th century, IIRC. More recently, changes in the Episcopalian Church (eg. women bishops) have made such a close stance harder with the Episcopalians.
 

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Here in Canada, it isn't only the bishops; non-OCA jurisdictions generally won't even appoint parish priests who weren't born in the "old country". Of the nine Orthodox churches in my city, seven have foreign-born priests, and I know of a couple of deacons and people with seminary qualifications who have been passed over for appointments for not being "ethnic" enough.

This story did the rounds locally a few years ago - a convert priest (originally from a Greek parish in Toronto, transferred to his own church in a small city a couple of hours from there) was turfed from his church because the parishioners didn't like that he wasn't Greek and couldn't speak the language: 1) https://www.mykawartha.com/news-sto...st-alleges-racial-discrimination-from-church/ 2) http://byztex.blogspot.com/2014/12/priest-claims-non-greek-priests-treated.html
 

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Okay, just to clarify to everyone (including myself)..... American is not an adjective used to describe an ethnicity. It's an adjective used to describe a nationality. America is one of the only countries in the world where its own demonym is not used to refer to an ethnicity. Anyone who is a citizen of the United States is an American. Therefore, the vast majority of people in the GOARCH are Americans. A lot of them are ethnically Greek.

If you look at the Gospel... there are these chapters composed of letters the Apostles wrote to various Churches and peoples... the Romans, Corinthians, etc. These holy men realized that people do belong to various nations, are bonded to their heritage and customs, and love their own people. Therefore, they wrote these letters aimed at the distinct needs of each one individually.
Yeah but in the days of the New Testament, there were no overlapping jurisdictions. Corinthians belonged to the Church of Corinth, and that was it. Americans can belong to the Church of Constantinople, the Church of Antioch, the Church of America, the Church of Russia, the Church of Serbia, the Church of Romania, the Church of Bulgaria, or the Church of Georgia the country. So now in America when a bishop has to administer to his flock, horrible church ecclesiology forces him to cater to a certain ethnicity rather than to the American flock in general (with the only exception being the OCA).
You don't think Greeks would rather hear it in modern Greek?
I've heard from a GOARCH priest that in Greece, some prayers are prayed in Modern Greek (for example, the Epistle and Gospel are read in Modern Greek).
I love the mix. I've visited countless parishes... and I thoroughly enjoyed the uniqueness of each... and never felt "lost" during the Liturgy.
Too bad people who are visiting an Orthodox church for the first time might feel lost in an all-Greek or half-Greek liturgy. (The same could be said for ROCOR, but to a lesser extent)
It‘s ever more about the exigencies and prerogatives of the Phanar, expressed in overweeningly foreign forms and language. Much of it is not even traditional, like the elimination of Subdeaconate...
GOARCH doesn't have the Subdeaconate?!
Here in Canada, it isn't only the bishops; non-OCA jurisdictions generally won't even appoint parish priests who weren't born in the "old country". Of the nine Orthodox churches in my city, seven have foreign-born priests, and I know of a couple of deacons and people with seminary qualifications who have been passed over for appointments for not being "ethnic" enough.

This story did the rounds locally a few years ago - a convert priest (originally from a Greek parish in Toronto, transferred to his own church in a small city a couple of hours from there) was turfed from his church because the parishioners didn't like that he wasn't Greek and couldn't speak the language: 1) https://www.mykawartha.com/news-sto...st-alleges-racial-discrimination-from-church/ 2) http://byztex.blogspot.com/2014/12/priest-claims-non-greek-priests-treated.html
How absolutely disgusting. And people wonder why Orthodox Christianity is remaining a small minority in North America. Thank God the OCA exists, otherwise I would think Orthodoxy in Canada is doomed.
 

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In fact, ANAXIOS to any bishops in America or Canada who deny ordination or tonsure to men on the basis of ethnicity. It is a heresy.
 

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Here in Canada, it isn't only the bishops; non-OCA jurisdictions generally won't even appoint parish priests who weren't born in the "old country". Of the nine Orthodox churches in my city, seven have foreign-born priests, and I know of a couple of deacons and people with seminary qualifications who have been passed over for appointments for not being "ethnic" enough.

This story did the rounds locally a few years ago - a convert priest (originally from a Greek parish in Toronto, transferred to his own church in a small city a couple of hours from there) was turfed from his church because the parishioners didn't like that he wasn't Greek and couldn't speak the language: 1) https://www.mykawartha.com/news-sto...st-alleges-racial-discrimination-from-church/ 2) http://byztex.blogspot.com/2014/12/priest-claims-non-greek-priests-treated.html
Did you read the whole story?
He and his wife divorced. So he had to leave the priesthood. It's a church law.
Sure, after his alimony ran out he sued.
 
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LizaSymonenko

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In fact, ANAXIOS to any bishops in America or Canada who deny ordination or tonsure to men on the basis of ethnicity. It is a heresy.
I honestly do not believe this happens. People may claim it does... because it fits in with their agenda or fulfills some conspiracy theory... but, the fact is that those who are "overlooked" might be lacking in any number of ways. Even those who graduate seminary, are not always ordained into the priesthood because they are found lacking... in faith, or in aptitude, in knowledge, commitment, or lacking social skills, commitment, etc.
 

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Did you read the whole story?
He and his wife divorced. So he had to leave the priesthood. It's a church law.
Sure, after his alimony ran out he sued.
I generally try not to react to your provocations, but don’t you dare try to gaslight me.

Did you read the article? Prior to the divorce, the parishioners circulated a petition to remove him as their priest for not being an ethnic Greek or Greek-speaker. That is before considering his second-class treatment from the archdiocese. And whether or not he was paraphrasing the Archbishops’s explanation, I have no doubt that the sentiment was more or less accurate.

What would you say in response to congregants petitioning for the removal of their priest because he’s of the wrong ancestry?

The abuse and mistreatment preceded the divorce. It might have actually been a contributor to it. I hope the Greek archdiocese had to pay or settle with him.
 

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I think all these priests deserve a pay raise. Its not easy to deal with people's problems and then get attached for not being Orthodox enough on top of it.
One minute you baptize someone's kid. The next you're stoned because you ask for money to keep the lights and the heat on.
People are strange these days.
You don't speak enough Greek
You don't speak enough English
People are just nuts.
 

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I generally try not to react to your provocations, but don’t you dare try to gaslight me.

Did you read the article? Prior to the divorce, the parishioners circulated a petition to remove him as their priest for not being an ethnic Greek or Greek-speaker. That is before considering his second-class treatment from the archdiocese. And whether or not he was paraphrasing the Archbishops’s explanation, I have no doubt that the sentiment was more or less accurate.

What would you say in response to congregants petitioning for the removal of their priest because he’s of the wrong ancestry?

The abuse and mistreatment preceded the divorce. It might have actually been a contributor to it. I hope the Greek archdiocese had to pay or settle with him.
There was also a petition to keep him.
And im not gas lighting you. You're just stuck on the one sided argument and not seeing the alternative facts. Which leads me to believe you lack empathy and respect.
 
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I think all these priests deserve a pay raise. Its not easy to deal with people's problems and then get attached for not being Orthodox enough on top of it.
One minute you baptize someone's kid. The next you're stoned because you ask for money to keep the lights and the heat on.
People are strange these days.
You don't speak enough Greek
You don't speak enough English
People are just nuts.
I agree, priests deserve tons of respect (Saint John Chrysostom says that if you see a priest and angel walking together, you should greet the priest first). But...... they don't speak enough English. And I guess part of that might just be the general mentality of many parishes, not necessarily the priests.
In fact, I would be a part of GOARCH today if more GOARCH parishes did English services. When my parents were converts and had to choose between a GOARCH church and an Antiochian church, they chose the Antiochian church despite it being farther away, because they couldn't understand any of the words in the GOARCH church. Thus I was born and raised in the Antiochian church rather than the GOARCH church.
 

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Here in Canada, it isn't only the bishops; non-OCA jurisdictions generally won't even appoint parish priests who weren't born in the "old country". Of the nine Orthodox churches in my city, seven have foreign-born priests, and I know of a couple of deacons and people with seminary qualifications who have been passed over for appointments for not being "ethnic" enough.

This story did the rounds locally a few years ago - a convert priest (originally from a Greek parish in Toronto, transferred to his own church in a small city a couple of hours from there) was turfed from his church because the parishioners didn't like that he wasn't Greek and couldn't speak the language: 1) https://www.mykawartha.com/news-sto...st-alleges-racial-discrimination-from-church/ 2) http://byztex.blogspot.com/2014/12/priest-claims-non-greek-priests-treated.html
100 years ago Serbian-born clergy were expected to speak fluent English before coming to serve Serbian parishes in America. There is less interest in cultivating plain old American parishioners now and I see most ethnic jurisdictions retrenching in ethnicity. A Montenegrin priest, son of an emigre priest, decried that most Serbian parishioners in his parish were ‘no longer Serbian’ because they were monolingual in English. A continued reinvestment in Serbian identity was of paramount importance to him.
 

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I generally try not to react to your provocations, but don’t you dare try to gaslight me.

Did you read the article? Prior to the divorce, the parishioners circulated a petition to remove him as their priest for not being an ethnic Greek or Greek-speaker. That is before considering his second-class treatment from the archdiocese. And whether or not he was paraphrasing the Archbishops’s explanation, I have no doubt that the sentiment was more or less accurate.

What would you say in response to congregants petitioning for the removal of their priest because he’s of the wrong ancestry?

The abuse and mistreatment preceded the divorce. It might have actually been a contributor to it. I hope the Greek archdiocese had to pay or settle with him.
This poor priest (sounds like his life is ruined now) is precisely what Abp. Elpidophoros Lambrianidis was complaining about among grads of Holy Cross when he gave his bombshell address to them some dozen years ago, before he was a priest maybe. This ethnocentric shot across the bow engendered a strong response to then Bp. Jonah that wasn’t well received. I had lunch with Frederica Mathews-Green shortly after and she and her Episcopalian Vicar friend thought it gauche of the young bishop to speak so presumptively.
Lambrianidis was complaining how so many HCHC grads did not have sufficient ´Ελλενισμός to be able to convey it to laymen in parishes, and that the Archdiocese was suffering becasue of it. Bp. Jonah thought it was the height of arrogance and imperialism.
 
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Tzimis

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Given the unique circumstances of the OCA. It's probably best for them to approach the EP and ask for a redistribution of the tomos through him. To nullify the illegal actions by the Russians and put resentments on both sides behind them.
It's also not wise for outsiders to comment on what goes on in peoples house, which they know very little about.
 

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Given the unique circumstances of the OCA. It's probably best for them to approach the EP and ask for a redistribution of the tomos through him. To nullify the illegal actions by the Russians and put resentments on both sides behind them.
It's also not wise for outsiders to comment on what goes on in peoples house, which they know very little about.
It was Russia that brought Orthodoxy to this continent, and they don't need Constantinople's permission to grant autocephaly to a daughter church, so their actions weren't illegal.
 

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100 years ago Serbian-born clergy were expected to speak fluent English before coming to serve Serbian parishes in America. There is less interest in cultivating plain old American parishioners now and I see most ethnic jurisdictions retrenching in ethnicity. A Montenegrin priest, son of an emigre priest, decried that most Serbian parishioners in his parish were ‘no longer Serbian’ because they were monolingual in English. A continued reinvestment in Serbian identity was of paramount importance to him.
I disagree that the trend is towards ethnicity. The St. Sophia Ukrainian Orthodox Theological Seminary in New Jersey requires non-English speaking students to learn English (ESL) BEFORE they get to study Church History, etc. If they cannot master the English language, they are not permitted to continue in their education (if their final goal is to become a priest in the USA).

The Mission priests sometimes are permitted to speak only English, all others are to be bilingual... able to serve the Ukrainian immigrants and the Americans equally.
 

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It was Russia that brought Orthodoxy to this continent, and they don't need Constantinople's permission to grant autocephaly to a daughter church, so their actions weren't illegal.
Russia is a junior Patriarchate and isn't one of the ancient Patriarchates. All of the churches autonomous under Russia were done so illegally.
 

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Lets say Texas wants to break away from the OCA. Is Russia going to intervene or is the OCA going to allow it on there own?
 

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Russia is a junior Patriarchate and isn't one of the ancient Patriarchates. All of the churches autonomous under Russia were done so illegally.
That's abject nonsense and more of the Phanar's caesaropapism.

Lets say Texas wants to break away from the OCA. Is Russia going to intervene or is the OCA going to allow it on there own?
If history is anything to go by, the EP will legitimize them for a give-and-take on Ukraine.
 

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That's abject nonsense and more of the Phanar's caesaropapism.



If history is anything to go by, the EP will legitimize them for a give-and-take on Ukraine.
You still haven't answered the question.
 

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Given the unique circumstances of the OCA. It's probably best for them to approach the EP and ask for a redistribution of the tomos through him. To nullify the illegal actions by the Russians and put resentments on both sides behind them.
Why ask the EP for autocephaly when they already have one from the MP? To say the MP's tomos of autocephaly is illegitimate because parts of their Church were probably infiltrated by the KGB discredits everything the MP did during the 20th century, and it discredits any autonomous Churches that remained under the MP during Soviet times, such as the Japanese Orthodox Church.
Plus if the OCA asks the EP for autocephaly, there's a good chance the MP will enter into schism with the OCA. The status quo with the OCA is much better than if the OCA seeks autocephaly from the EP.
If it's not due to Soviet infiltration, why would it be illegal?
The Mission priests sometimes are permitted to speak only English, all others are to be bilingual... able to serve the Ukrainian immigrants and the Americans equally.
Ukrainian immigrants are Americans.
Russia is a junior Patriarchate and isn't one of the ancient Patriarchates. All of the churches autonomous under Russia were done so illegally.
So the Belarussian Orthodox Church, Latvian Orthodox Church, Japanese Orthodox Church, and the Metropolis of Moldova are all illegitimate?
 
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