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What's going on with the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Russian Patriarch Kirill?

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I disagree that the trend is towards ethnicity. The St. Sophia Ukrainian Orthodox Theological Seminary in New Jersey requires non-English speaking students to learn English (ESL) BEFORE they get to study Church History, etc. If they cannot master the English language, they are not permitted to continue in their education (if their final goal is to become a priest in the USA).

The Mission priests sometimes are permitted to speak only English, all others are to be bilingual... able to serve the Ukrainian immigrants and the Americans equally.
There is a family from Ukraine at my church and they speak fluent English. If you're an immigrant you should be learning the language of the country you live in. If Americans went to live in Ukraine it would be ridiculous for them to expect priests to serve in English, they should learn Ukrainian.
 

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There is a family from Ukraine at my church and they speak fluent English. If you're an immigrant you should be learning the language of the country you live in. If Americans went to live in Ukraine it would be ridiculous for them to expect priests to serve in English, they should learn Ukrainian.
I know that somewhere around half of the congregations of the local Ukrainian and Greek churches have little or no knowledge of the languages, and that the number is approaching that for the two Serbian churches. And virtually everyone outside of the octogenarian immigrants at all of them are perfectly fluent in English. Non-English speakers, or at least those more comfortable in their mother tongues, are more numerous at the Russian and Romanian parishes, but the situation has inverted to the point where they're the exceptions. Yet only the Ukrainian church offers all-English services on a rotation with 50/50 Ukrainian/English services, the latter of which drag out due to everything being repeated in full. The Russian church actually got rid of the English repetition it used to do when my old priest departed. It's getting nonsensical and unjustifiable.
 

Tzimis

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Why ask the EP for autocephaly when they already have one from the MP? To say the MP's tomos of autocephaly is illegitimate because parts of their Church were probably infiltrated by the KGB discredits everything the MP did during the 20th century, and it discredits any autonomous Churches that remained under the MP during Soviet times, such as the Japanese Orthodox Church.
Plus if the OCA asks the EP for autocephaly, there's a good chance the MP will enter into schism with the OCA. The status quo with the OCA is much better than if the OCA seeks autocephaly from the EP.
If it's not due to Soviet infiltration, why would it be illegal?

Ukrainian immigrants are Americans.

So the Belarussian Orthodox Church, Latvian Orthodox Church, Japanese Orthodox Church, and the Metropolis of Moldova are all illegitimate?
I don't know the history of the Belarussian Orthodox Church but the Latvian Orthodox Church asked to come under the jurisdiction of the EP. In February 1936.
Russia made a power play and circumvented the EP in those instances.
 

Ariend

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I don't know the history of the Belarussian Orthodox Church but the Latvian Orthodox Church asked to come under the jurisdiction of the EP. In February 1936.
Russia made a power play and circumvented the EP in those instances.
You should get to know the history of every single autonomous Church under the MP before making a blanket claim that they are all illegitimate.
 

biro

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Gal.3

  1. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

(Copied from site at Univ. of Michigan)
 

Tzimis

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You should get to know the history of every single autonomous Church under the MP before making a blanket claim that they are all illegitimate.
Never said they are illegitimate Orthodox.
 

Tzimis

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Ah yeah true. Illegitimately created, I should say
Its like having a Cruise ship baby. Now that there here, you have to deal with them.
 

FULK NERA

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Russia is a junior Patriarchate and isn't one of the ancient Patriarchates. All of the churches autonomous under Russia were done so illegally.
This is plain innovative ecclesiology with no basis in history. Moscow doesn’t ever need to beg permission from a moribund patriarchate that is forced to go around the globe cadging dioceses to bolster its purse. There is no category of junior autocephaly in church life or history, this is a false ecclesiological elaboration with no grounding in history or doctrine.

Your Phanariotism is showing here, trying to delegitimize the largest Autocephalous Church to bolster the failing prospects of the Ecumenical Patriarchate that has no further natural place of primacy, only a historical hangover from imperial times long gone. Since the collapse of Ottoman power began nearly two centuries ago, the Phanar has lost the control it enjoyed under τουρκοκρατία over Romanian and Balkan churches and elsewhere, scrambling ever since to regain something like the favor it once enjoyed even under that baneful yoke. To that end it even went so far as to endorse the Soviet stalking horse of a church and tell Saint Patriarch Tikhon to stand down.

I for one would appreciate a little realism here and the good taste to avoid turning a polite discussion into a diatribe chock full of ugly lies.
 

FULK NERA

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This isn't true. I know plenty of American born Bishops.
There are no American-born suffragan hierarchs in GOARCH besides Metropolitan Isaiah.

Title added. --Ainnir
 
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FULK NERA

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Given the unique circumstances of the OCA. It's probably best for them to approach the EP and ask for a redistribution of the tomos through him. To nullify the illegal actions by the Russians and put resentments on both sides behind them.
It's also not wise for outsiders to comment on what goes on in peoples house, which they know very little about.
The OCA resents no one. It’s only the Phanar with its ridiculous imperial pretensions that bears a grudge.
 

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It was Russia that brought Orthodoxy to this continent, and they don't need Constantinople's permission to grant autocephaly to a daughter church, so their actions weren't illegal.
The partisan mind cannot comprehend this clear fact. The Tomos is a fait accompli that the EP will not countenance because it militates against their papal claims.
 

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Lets say Texas wants to break away from the OCA. Is Russia going to intervene or is the OCA going to allow it on there own?
That’s an absurd proposition that shows your deep ignorance of American church life. Do you even know who the bishop in Dallas is?
 

FULK NERA

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There is a family from Ukraine at my church and they speak fluent English. If you're an immigrant you should be learning the language of the country you live in. If Americans went to live in Ukraine it would be ridiculous for them to expect priests to serve in English, they should learn Ukrainian.
Tell it to the Georgians.
 

Ainnir

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FULK NERA, please do not spam the thread; there's a multi-quote function so you can condense your replies into one post. Please do so.
Thanks. --Ainnir
 

Tzimis

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This is plain innovative ecclesiology with no basis in history. Moscow doesn’t ever need to beg permission from a moribund patriarchate that is forced to go around the globe cadging dioceses to bolster its purse. There is no category of junior autocephaly in church life or history, this is a false ecclesiological elaboration with no grounding in history or doctrine.

Your Phanariotism is showing here, trying to delegitimize the largest Autocephalous Church to bolster the failing prospects of the Ecumenical Patriarchate that has no further natural place of primacy, only a historical hangover from imperial times long gone. Since the collapse of Ottoman power began nearly two centuries ago, the Phanar has lost the control it enjoyed under τουρκοκρατία over Romanian and Balkan churches and elsewhere, scrambling ever since to regain something like the favor it once enjoyed even under that baneful yoke. To that end it even went so far as to endorse the Soviet stalking horse of a church and tell Saint Patriarch Tikhon to stand down.

I for one would appreciate a little realism here and the good taste to avoid turning a polite discussion into a diatribe chock full of ugly lies.
Lets read canon 28 of the fourth council together in detail.

Following in all things the decisions of the holy fathers, and acknowledging the canon which has been just read, the one hundred and fifty bishops beloved of God (who assembled in the imperial city of Constantinople, which is the New Rome, in the time of the Emperor Theodosius of happy memory [AD 180]), we also do enact and decree the same things concerning the privileges of the most holy Church of Constantinople, which is New Rome. For the Fathers rightly granted privileges to the throne of old Rome, because it was the royal city. And the one hundred and fifty most religious bishops, actuated by the same consideration, gave equal privileges to the most holy throne of New Rome, justly judging that city which is honored with the sovereignty and the Senate, and enjoys equal privileges with the old imperial Rome, should in ecclesiastical matters also be magnified as she is, and rank next after her; so that in the Pontic, the Asian, and the Thracian dioceses, the metropolitans only and such bishops also of the dioceses aforesaid as are among the barbarians, should be ordained by the aforesaid most holy throne of the most holy Church of Constantinople; every metropolitan of the aforesaid dioceses, together with the bishops of his province, ordaining his own provincial bishops, as has been declared by the divine canons; but that as has been above said, the metropolitans of the aforesaid dioceses should be ordained by the archbishop of Constantinople, after the proper elections have been held according to custom and have been reported to him
 

Tzimis

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There are no American-born suffragan hierarchs in GOARCH besides Metropolitan Isaiah.

Title added. --Ainnir
I told you I know plenty without naming any one in particular. One is also a metropolitan.
 
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Tzimis

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That’s an absurd proposition that shows your deep ignorance of American church life. Do you even know who the bishop in Dallas is?
American orthodox church life wasn't started by protestants. Orthodoxy is a continuum of a family of churches that are supposed to be in a communion and not isolated like the protestants
 

Ainnir

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Y'all are reminding me why I only have one rooster.
 

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Heard abput this from someone who ought to know, so I deem it reliable. I wonder if they might retroactively anathematize Patr. Meletios I who promulgated the New Calendar and other rascally deeds in his tenure as head of pretty much all the Hellenic churches, sometimes more than one at a time. What a wheeler-dealer!
I hate to say it, but, I wish they would just do it and get it over with so there is no more ambiguity. Patriarch Bartholomew has had two years to recant his position and has refused to do so, and in fact has doubled down and taken the Churches of Alexandria, Cyprus and Greece with him...or at least the ruling hierarch of those Churches. How much more damage does he have to do to split Orthodox before everyone says enough is enough.

His protege here in America is also doing much harm to the flock by the things he says and his actions and the Church of Russia formally anathematizing Patriarch Bartholomew would I think have a ripple effect here in America, even in non-ROCOR parishes, I'm thinking specificially the Serbians.

I really do hate it has to be done, and I know many of us have been praying for a different outcome, but when one arm becomes infected and starts infecting the rest of the body, what else is to be done?
 

Menas17

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If anyone has more information about this upcoming meeting, I'd like to read it (I don't mind if it's in Russian)
I've been looking for more as well but haven't found a whole lot. Guess we will see in 2 months
 

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This is plain innovative ecclesiology with no basis in history. Moscow doesn’t ever need to beg permission from a moribund patriarchate that is forced to go around the globe cadging dioceses to bolster its purse. There is no category of junior autocephaly in church life or history, this is a false ecclesiological elaboration with no grounding in history or doctrine.

Your Phanariotism is showing here, trying to delegitimize the largest Autocephalous Church to bolster the failing prospects of the Ecumenical Patriarchate that has no further natural place of primacy, only a historical hangover from imperial times long gone. Since the collapse of Ottoman power began nearly two centuries ago, the Phanar has lost the control it enjoyed under τουρκοκρατία over Romanian and Balkan churches and elsewhere, scrambling ever since to regain something like the favor it once enjoyed even under that baneful yoke. To that end it even went so far as to endorse the Soviet stalking horse of a church and tell Saint Patriarch Tikhon to stand down.

I for one would appreciate a little realism here and the good taste to avoid turning a polite discussion into a diatribe chock full of ugly lies.
Has Tzimis always been such a Constantinople simp? I'm starting to see why it was so easy for the laity to blindly follow past bishops along in heresy
 

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I've been looking for more as well but haven't found a whole lot. Guess we will see in 2 months
The meeting in November is the regular (every four years? I forget) meeting of the entire episcopate of the Russian Orthodox Church. That they will debate anathematizing Patriarch Bartholomew is widely rumored, but we can hope the notion will be dismissed out of hand. One scenario that might have led to it-- Patriarch Bartholomew declaring the bishops of the UOC to be deposed or in some way invalid on his visit to Ukraine-- did not materialize, and there's good reason to believe that time is more or less on the side of the UOC on the ground, so Moscow should be smart enough to take things slowly. But more importantly, it would be an ecclesiologically insane move-- a patriarch can be deposed or anathematized by his own synod or by a council (and not necessarily even an ecumenical one, as we've seen in recent decades with interventions in Jerusalem), but certainly not by the bishops of a single third-party church. For Moscow to do so would be tantamount to claiming the sort of primacy that the EP is so frequently (and rightly) criticized for claiming, on even less of a canonical basis.
 

Tzimis

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Has Tzimis always been such a Constantinople simp? I'm starting to see why it was so easy for the laity to blindly follow past bishops along in heresy
Those that pull away and form innovation instead of adhering to the canons are the heretics.
 

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Let brotherly love continue...
We need a Roman Catholic about now to enter stage to divert the biting and consuming.
 

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The meeting in November is the regular (every four years? I forget) meeting of the entire episcopate of the Russian Orthodox Church. That they will debate anathematizing Patriarch Bartholomew is widely rumored, but we can hope the notion will be dismissed out of hand. One scenario that might have led to it-- Patriarch Bartholomew declaring the bishops of the UOC to be deposed or in some way invalid on his visit to Ukraine-- did not materialize, and there's good reason to believe that time is more or less on the side of the UOC on the ground, so Moscow should be smart enough to take things slowly. But more importantly, it would be an ecclesiologically insane move-- a patriarch can be deposed or anathematized by his own synod or by a council (and not necessarily even an ecumenical one, as we've seen in recent decades with interventions in Jerusalem), but certainly not by the bishops of a single third-party church. For Moscow to do so would be tantamount to claiming the sort of primacy that the EP is so frequently (and rightly) criticized for claiming, on even less of a canonical basis.
I think Moscow has demonstrated that their response isn't going to be cautious or incremental. I think that's unfortunate, but also not unjustified. There has been a general malaise and reluctance among other jurisdictions to stand up to the EP as it tries to impose itself on world Orthodoxy. To put it crudely, someone had to.

Do you see the situation improving in our lifetimes or beyond? Patriarch Bartholomew has stacked the ranks of the patriarchy with like-minded hierarchs. If Archbishop Elpidophoros is the heir presumptive, then I can't even imagine what the EP is going to continue to morph into in the years ahead.

How bad is this going to get? I think most jurisdictions want to be left alone and not get involved, but the MP and EP will pressure them to take sides. We've already seen that Constantinople can successfully strong-arm the Hellenic patriarchates into falling in line, and circumstances will push Serbia (ie. the EP threatening to pull an OCU in Montenegro and Macedonia to punish Serbia for its pro-Moscow position) and the Czechs/Slovaks (ie. the EP illegally attempting to subvert their hierarchy from within) into Moscow's camp. The EP keeps assuring everyone that other jurisdictions will soon recognize the OCU and "know their place" (ie. Romania), but so far that hasn't materialized.

I fear Orthodoxy in the coming years will look like a Venn diagram - Constantinople and allies on one side, Moscow and allies on another, and the exasperated churches stuck in the middle, trying to hold onto both.
 

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Do you see the situation improving in our lifetimes or beyond? Patriarch Bartholomew has stacked the ranks of the patriarchy with like-minded hierarchs. If Archbishop Elpidophoros is the heir presumptive, then I can't even imagine what the EP is going to continue to morph into in the years ahead.
It's too hard to tell, because the EP's direction in the future very much depends on the fortunes of US foreign policy. The US seems to be either losing effectiveness abroad (for instance, the inability to stop Nord Stream 2), focusing wholly on the Western Pacific, or both. Such a realignment might weaken the EP or it might force them to find more creative solutions than in the past.

I don't think Abp Elpidophoros is currently the heir presumptive. I think there's roughly equal chances of him, Met Emmanuel, or Anybody Else. Met Emmanuel's being promoted to basically the number 2 in the EP may have put him slightly ahead of Abp Elpidophoros, because he is now often there and present in Istanbul in the day-to-day (in addition to being the candidate of the Cretans). He will also continue to be there and present as the number 2 if anyone else is elected patriarch.
 

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I think Moscow has demonstrated that their response isn't going to be cautious or incremental. I think that's unfortunate, but also not unjustified. There has been a general malaise and reluctance among other jurisdictions to stand up to the EP as it tries to impose itself on world Orthodoxy. To put it crudely, someone had to.

Do you see the situation improving in our lifetimes or beyond? Patriarch Bartholomew has stacked the ranks of the patriarchy with like-minded hierarchs. If Archbishop Elpidophoros is the heir presumptive, then I can't even imagine what the EP is going to continue to morph into in the years ahead.

How bad is this going to get? I think most jurisdictions want to be left alone and not get involved, but the MP and EP will pressure them to take sides. We've already seen that Constantinople can successfully strong-arm the Hellenic patriarchates into falling in line, and circumstances will push Serbia (ie. the EP threatening to pull an OCU in Montenegro and Macedonia to punish Serbia for its pro-Moscow position) and the Czechs/Slovaks (ie. the EP illegally attempting to subvert their hierarchy from within) into Moscow's camp. The EP keeps assuring everyone that other jurisdictions will soon recognize the OCU and "know their place" (ie. Romania), but so far that hasn't materialized.

I fear Orthodoxy in the coming years will look like a Venn diagram - Constantinople and allies on one side, Moscow and allies on another, and the exasperated churches stuck in the middle, trying to hold onto both.
Well, Moscow itself is already 75% of the Orthodox Church. So I don't really see a split in the middle.
 

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I told you I know plenty without naming any one in particular. One is also a metropolitan.
Only Metr. Isaiah is American. The other Mets are all foreigners.

Your strange interpretation of Chalcedon 28 has absolutely no relevance to Moscow Patr. granting a Tomos of Autocephaly the OCA In a changed world so many centuries later when there are no Orthodox empires or even kingdoms. It would take another Ecumenical Council to clearly state what you are parroting of the tendentious, self-serving Phanar line here. To pretend Chalcedon‘s designation of ‘barbarian lands’ then extant must forever and always belong to New Rome, which the same canon implies holds power only insofar as it remains the Imperial Capital, does not make any ecclesiological sense. To attempt to derive categories of ‘authentic autocephalies’ and ‘junior autocephalies’ from the same document is beyond tendentious. It’s desperate and pathetic.
 

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I think Moscow has demonstrated that their response isn't going to be cautious or incremental. I think that's unfortunate, but also not unjustified. There has been a general malaise and reluctance among other jurisdictions to stand up to the EP as it tries to impose itself on world Orthodoxy. To put it crudely, someone had to.

Do you see the situation improving in our lifetimes or beyond? Patriarch Bartholomew has stacked the ranks of the patriarchy with like-minded hierarchs. If Archbishop Elpidophoros is the heir presumptive, then I can't even imagine what the EP is going to continue to morph into in the years ahead.

How bad is this going to get? I think most jurisdictions want to be left alone and not get involved, but the MP and EP will pressure them to take sides. We've already seen that Constantinople can successfully strong-arm the Hellenic patriarchates into falling in line, and circumstances will push Serbia (ie. the EP threatening to pull an OCU in Montenegro and Macedonia to punish Serbia for its pro-Moscow position) and the Czechs/Slovaks (ie. the EP illegally attempting to subvert their hierarchy from within) into Moscow's camp. The EP keeps assuring everyone that other jurisdictions will soon recognize the OCU and "know their place" (ie. Romania), but so far that hasn't materialized.

I fear Orthodoxy in the coming years will look like a Venn diagram - Constantinople and allies on one side, Moscow and allies on another, and the exasperated churches stuck in the middle, trying to hold onto both.
The Heir Apparent to the Ecumenical Throne is not Abp. Elpidophoros. It is the newly-enthroned Elder Metropolitan (is this a novel rank in episcopacy?) of Chalcedon, Emmanuel, formerly of some nonexistent locale called Gaul. The Abp. of America, Elpidophoros, is reliable in his synopsis with the Phanar and so will soon be enjoying enhanced episcopal powers under a new Archdiocesan Charter but Metr. of Chalcedon is the traditional successor to the Ecumenical Throne.
 

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CONFERENCE ON PRIMACY AND CONCILIARITY BEING HELD IN MOSCOW

Yesterday began the conference, “World Orthodoxy: Primacy and Conciliarity in Light of Orthodox Doctrine,” at Christ the Savior Cathedral in Moscow. The conference is being put on by the Synodal Biblical and Theological Commission of the Russian Church.

The conference was attended by hierarchs and experts of the Russian Church and distinguished guests from other Local Churches, reports the Synodal Department for External Church Relations.

The gathering was opened with a welcoming speech by His Holiness Patriarch Kirill, in which he noted that Constantinople has simply buried all the agreements that were reached on a pan-Orthodox level about how autocephaly is to be granted, instead taking this prerogative for itself. And despite Pat. Bartholomew’s efforts to shatter the unity of the Russian Church, his actions have actually strengthened solidarity, the Russian primate said.

His Holiness was followed by a report from His Eminence Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk on “Constantinople’s Claims to Power as a Threat to the Unity of the Church.”

Reports were also presented by His Grace Bishop Irinej of Bačka (Serbian Church), His Grace Bishop Sylvester of Belogorod (Ukrainian Church), and His Eminence Metropolitan Andrei of Gori and Aten (Georgian Church). The report of His Eminence Metropolitan Nikiforos of Kykkos (Cypriot Church) was read out by a Cypriot priest.

His Eminence Archbishop Theodosius of Sebaste (Jerusalem Patriarchate) and His Eminence Metropolitan Isaiah of Tamassos (Cypriot Church) sent video messages.

Following the first part of the conference, Pat. Kirill thanked all the presenters and offered his own thoughts, emphasizing that it’s enough to read the “tomos” of the schismatic “Orthodox Church of Ukraine” to see all the terrible innovations of Patriarch Bartholomew and his advisers.

If Constantinople’s anti-Orthodox actions don’t receive a proper assessment from the Orthodox world, they could turn into a dangerous precedent, where Constantinople continues to appropriate powers for itself outside the canonical tradition, the Russian primate emphasized.

Constantinople’s understanding of primacy is, in fact, neo-papism, His Holiness added. The Russian Council of Bishops that will meet this fall should formulate an official position towards Constantinople’s innovations, he said.

The second session of the conference included many more presentations by hierarchs, clerics, and scholars of the Russian Church. Dozens of hierarchs from around the Orthodox world also joined in the conference online

Also this from the other side:

Moscow Patriarchate Questions Ecumenical Patriarchate’s Legitimacy

By Kostas Onisenko

Patriarch Kirill of Moscow participates in a two-day conference that began yesterday and will be concluded today in Moscow, entitled “World Orthodoxy: Primacy and Synodicality in the light of the Orthodox doctrine.”

This particular conference, according to the information that already exists, aims to denounce the Ecumenical Patriarchate because of the decisions it has taken on the Ukrainian autocephaly issue and, as the title demonstrates, refers to issues of primacy in the Orthodox Church.

As can be seen from the position of Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk at this conference, the Russian Orthodox Church openly disputes the primacy of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in the Orthodox world.

It is simply an “honorary” primacy that was granted to the Ecumenical Patriarchate “due to unfortunate circumstances,” Metropolitan Hilarion said.

On his part, the head of the Russian Orthodox Church, Patriarch Kirill, went one step further by questioning the permanence of the Ecumenical Patriarch:

“Claims of special rights and privileges have been expressed in the past by hierarchs and theologians of Constantinople, but they have never expressed them in such strict terms and with such an extreme version as today,” said Patriarch Kirill.

He added that “they went so far as to call the Patriarch of Constantinople not the first among equals, but ‘the first without equals’. This innovative ecclesiology has no basis either in the sacred canons or in the ecclesiastical tradition, in general.”



“It is necessary to compare the understanding of primacy and conciliarity articulated today by Constantinople with the original understanding sealed in the Tradition of the Church. It is the most important task: we can prove the invalidity of Constantinople’s position only by comparing this actual position with what has always been in the Orthodox Church with regard to the realization of the role and importance of the first”, Patriarch of Moscow added.

“It is important to think once again what the ecclesiastical schism means, how the local Churches should react to it, whether the prayerful and eucharistic communion with the schismatics is acceptable and what canonical (editor’s note: according to religious canons) consequences of this communion are, if the ecclesiastical authority can be considered legal, which concelebrates with schismatics and the self-ordained priests, who are not ordained according to canons,” Patriarch Kirill said yesterday during the conference held in Moscow.
 
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Tzimis

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Only Metr. Isaiah is American. The other Mets are all foreigners.

Your strange interpretation of Chalcedon 28 has absolutely no relevance to Moscow Patr. granting a Tomos of Autocephaly the OCA In a changed world so many centuries later when there are no Orthodox empires or even kingdoms. It would take another Ecumenical Council to clearly state what you are parroting of the tendentious, self-serving Phanar line here. To pretend Chalcedon‘s designation of ‘barbarian lands’ then extant must forever and always belong to New Rome, which the same canon implies holds power only insofar as it remains the Imperial Capital, does not make any ecclesiological sense. To attempt to derive categories of ‘authentic autocephalies’ and ‘junior autocephalies’ from the same document is beyond tendentious. It’s desperate and pathetic.
You're wrong. Metropolitan Savas, Metropolitan Nicholas, Metropolitan Methodios and Metropolitan Isaiah are all American born. Get your facts strait.
Empires and kingdoms are irrelevant. The structure of the church was established by multiple bishops and canonized at the 4th council. Having nothing to do with empires and your 3rd Rome scenarios.
Russia received its autocephaly from the EP because it was his jurisdiction and the canon applies directly to Russia.
Just because you don't like it, isn't my problem it's yours.
 

Tzimis

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Canon 28 of Chalcedon explicitly relates the See of Constantinople's position to its place in the Empire.
I'll hold out until the next council, when Russia may or may not be elevated. Being they never showed at the last one, leads me to believe they have gone rogue.
 

Samn!

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I'll hold out until the next council, when Russia may or may not be elevated. Being they never showed at the last one, leads me to believe they have gone rogue.
I don't particularly care about Russia one way or the other. Basing an ecclesiology around "Rome", whether first, second or third, is silly when there's no more empire and the world is much larger than all that.
 

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I'll hold out until the next council, when Russia may or may not be elevated. Being they never showed at the last one, leads me to believe they have gone rogue.
The next council? I've heard from a GOARCH priest that an Ecumenical Council cannot happen without Rome; so according to him, we would need to enter into Communion with the Roman Catholic Church before convening another Ecumenical Council.
 

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Empires and kingdoms are irrelevant. The structure of the church was established by multiple bishops and canonized at the 4th council. Having nothing to do with empires and your 3rd Rome scenarios.
Russia received its autocephaly from the EP because it was his jurisdiction and the canon applies directly to Russia.
Just because you don't like it, isn't my problem it's yours.
I sometimes think about Orthodoxy in a few thousand years (unless the Parousia happens before that), when there could be people living on different planets. Would the tiny Phanar then have jurisdiction over Mars? I think there should be an autocephelaous Martian Orthodox Church, but the EP would probably want it under its jurisdiction.
 

FULK NERA

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I sometimes think about Orthodoxy in a few thousand years (unless the Parousia happens before that), when there could be people living on different planets. Would the tiny Phanar then have jurisdiction over Mars? I think there should be an autocephelaous Martian Orthodox Church, but the EP would probably want it under its jurisdiction.
A man after my own heart. The Russian Orthodox Church already shows the way, first in Alaska, the ends of the earth, then more recently Antarctica. They will certainly have chaplains in space and dioceses. Somehow I can’t see the EP having the means to do any of that.

There is a proverb I heard a long time ago about C’ple and Moscow:

I went to Fener in Istanbul and saw elderly Greek gentlemen disposing the affaires of the Church over little cups of Turkish coffee. I went to Moscow and saw them running orphanages, colleges and hospitals.
 
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Saxon

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The next council? I've heard from a GOARCH priest that an Ecumenical Council cannot happen without Rome; so according to him, we would need to enter into Communion with the Roman Catholic Church before convening another Ecumenical Council.
Why do we not concede that the schism is never going to be healed and appoint an Orthodox bishop of Rome?
 

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Why do we not concede that the schism is never going to be healed and appoint an Orthodox bishop of Rome?
There already is a Romanian Orthodox bishop of Italy in Rome funny enough. Although I would think nobody wants to open the can of worms of appointing a bishop that immediately would become primus inter pares and first in rank in World Orthodoxy. At now the Pentarchy is pretty much obsolete anyway and seems to be merely a Boomer obsession.
 
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