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What's with the Virgin Showing Off Hell?

ialmisry

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In the background is a History Channel "documentary," and there is someone talking about Fatima, and someone is saying "the Blessed Mother showed the visionaries Hell, and it scared them so much that she had to assure them that they would go to heave."  They're also talking about the children self mortifying themselves for sinners.

I've come across this a lot as a theme "Visions of Hell" in Vatican approved/inspired "visions," but don't recall it in Orthodox hagiography.  What's with the "Virgin's" obsession with showing off hell in the West?
 

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ialmisry said:
In the background is a History Channel "documentary," and there is someone talking about Fatima, and someone is saying "the Blessed Mother showed the visionaries Hell, and it scared them so much that she had to assure them that they would go to heave."  They're also talking about the children self mortifying themselves for sinners.

I've come across this a lot as a theme "Visions of Hell" in Vatican approved/inspired "visions," but don't recall it in Orthodox hagiography.  What's with the "Virgin's" obsession with showing off hell in the West?
Not from hagiography, but there is always the (non-Gnostic) Apocalypse of Peter (2nd century).
 

ms.hoorah

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http://www.mt.net/~watcher/october13marygeorgia.html

Perhaps this message explains why some believe Mary may hanging out in purgatory.  To some Catholics, souls that are in purgatory can be released into heaven to honor Mary.  

 

ignatius

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I little respect toward our faith and the BVM would be nice. Perhaps, you feel Jesus was a fear-monger too?
 

augustin717

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I've come across with similar literature in the OC, perhaps not of the highest level of authority, but quite well read, nonetheless.
Have you heard of "The Epistle that the Mother of God sent down from heaven", or "The Dream of the Mother of God"? or the numberless stories in the books of Archimandrite Nicodim Mandita?
 

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augustin717 said:
I've come across with similar literature in the OC, perhaps not of the highest level of authority, but quite well read, nonetheless.
Have you heard of "The Epistle that the Mother of God sent down from heaven", or "The Dream of the Mother of God"? or the numberless stories in the books of Archimandrite Nicodim Mandita?
The dream of the mother of God can you explain it and  post the prayer.
My Late Mother use to pray this prayer or some thing like it
It sounded to me like a Catholic Novena
with promises attached if one says it a few times,
before going Before a judge ,or any judgment that Arch Angel Michel
intervenes and one is found not guilty and protected from all misfortunes ....

In bosnijan/serbian its called sun Presvetne Bogo Majke na goru Jeleskom hope i wrote the title correctly... Ill post the prayer later ....
I video taped mom while she was saying this prayer ....
 

augustin717

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stashko said:
augustin717 said:
I've come across with similar literature in the OC, perhaps not of the highest level of authority, but quite well read, nonetheless.
Have you heard of "The Epistle that the Mother of God sent down from heaven", or "The Dream of the Mother of God"? or the numberless stories in the books of Archimandrite Nicodim Mandita?
The dream of the mother of God can you explain it and  post the prayer.
My Late Mother use to pray this prayer or some thing like it
It sounded to me like a Catholic Novena
with promises attached if one says it a few times,
before going Before a judge ,or any judgment that Arch Angel Michel
intervenes and one is found not guilty and protected from all misfortunes ....

In bosnijan/serbian its called sun Presvetne Bogo Majke na goru Jeleskom hope i wrote the title correctly... Ill post the prayer later ....
I video taped mom while she was saying this prayer ....
Stashko,
I don't have an English version, if there ever was one, only the Romanian version. And your title is correct "on the Olive mountain/Eleon". I have two very old copies of these booklets inherited fm my great-grandparents.
 

ms.hoorah

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ignatius said:
I little respect toward our faith and the BVM would be nice. Perhaps, you feel Jesus was a fear-monger too?
I do not believe that Mary is the Jr. Savior who descends into Purgatory on the Saturday after someone’s death to release them from Purgatory if their family purchased enough mass cards or if they were wearing an itchy scapular at the moment of their death. Like yourself, I have the greatest of respect for the Mother of God and this is why I do not like having her portrayed as a shady bail bondsman “hanging around” in Purgatory.

http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/purgatory3.htm
 

ialmisry

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augustin717 said:
I've come across with similar literature in the OC, perhaps not of the highest level of authority, but quite well read, nonetheless.
Have you heard of "The Epistle that the Mother of God sent down from heaven", or "The Dream of the Mother of God"? or the numberless stories in the books of Archimandrite Nicodim Mandita?
My ex wife had them, but I don't recall the details (other that I wasn't terribly interested).
 

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augustin717 said:
stashko said:
augustin717 said:
I've come across with similar literature in the OC, perhaps not of the highest level of authority, but quite well read, nonetheless.
Have you heard of "The Epistle that the Mother of God sent down from heaven", or "The Dream of the Mother of God"? or the numberless stories in the books of Archimandrite Nicodim Mandita?
The dream of the mother of God can you explain it and  post the prayer.
My Late Mother use to pray this prayer or some thing like it
It sounded to me like a Catholic Novena
with promises attached if one says it a few times,



before going Before a judge ,or any judgment that Arch Angel Michel
intervenes and one is found not guilty and protected from all misfortunes ....

In bosnijan/serbian its called sun Presvetne Bogo Majke na goru Jeleskom hope i wrote the title correctly... Ill post the prayer later ....
I video taped mom while she was saying this prayer ....
Stashko,
I don't have an English version, if there ever was one, only the Romanian version. And your title is correct "on the Olive mountain/Eleon". I have two very old copies of these booklets inherited fm my great-grandparents.

There were two versions of the prayers one longer and one shorter if i remember correctly.....im not sure which version i have ,,everytime she said this prayer she would have tears running it touched her deeply...

 

ignatius

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ms.hoorah said:
ignatius said:
I little respect toward our faith and the BVM would be nice. Perhaps, you feel Jesus was a fear-monger too?
I do not believe that Mary is the Jr. Savior who descends into Purgatory on the Saturday after someone’s death to release them from Purgatory if their family purchased enough mass cards or if they were wearing an itchy scapular at the moment of their death. Like yourself, I have the greatest of respect for the Mother of God and this is why I do not like having her portrayed as a shady bail bondsman “hanging around” in Purgatory.

http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/purgatory3.htm
Your shallow caricature of the Roman Catholic Faith only illuminates your partiality or limits of knowledge of it or your intent to misrepresent it to enact some petty. Perhaps to demonstrate just how 'orthodox' you?

Jesus Christ not only opened Heaven but the divine Godhead to all humanity whom are willing to participate within it. Our Blessed Virgin was the first and the greatest of many Saints to follow her. I see no reason, no reason at all that would limit her charity toward us nor any barrier that would bar her visitation. You, sir or ma'am, are a brute and lack the wisdom to dialogue with those whom disagree with you without person insults and false characterizations.

You insult me and you insult the handmaid which has brought me to the very threshold of Eastern Orthodoxy. How dare you.
 

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ms.hoorah said:
ignatius said:
I little respect toward our faith and the BVM would be nice. Perhaps, you feel Jesus was a fear-monger too?
I do not believe that Mary is the Jr. Savior who descends into Purgatory on the Saturday after someone’s death to release them from Purgatory if their family purchased enough mass cards or if they were wearing an itchy scapular at the moment of their death. Like yourself, I have the greatest of respect for the Mother of God and this is why I do not like having her portrayed as a shady bail bondsman “hanging around” in Purgatory.

http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/purgatory3.htm
It does seem bizarre to have the Mother of God saying "say the rosary five times on the first Saturday of five consecutive months and I'll get you out of purgatory". It sounds like a plea bargain. That's not the Theotokos I've come to see in Orthodoxy... ???
 

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Im wondering  if this prayer, the Dream of the Holy Virgin has it's origins ,From the eastern romainian Catholics Church..Because serbia and romainia do share a border and it spread to Bosnija as well ...Ill ask some Croatian catholics if there familiar with this prayer......
 

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ignatius said:
ms.hoorah said:
ignatius said:
I little respect toward our faith and the BVM would be nice. Perhaps, you feel Jesus was a fear-monger too?
I do not believe that Mary is the Jr. Savior who descends into Purgatory on the Saturday after someone’s death to release them from Purgatory if their family purchased enough mass cards or if they were wearing an itchy scapular at the moment of their death. Like yourself, I have the greatest of respect for the Mother of God and this is why I do not like having her portrayed as a shady bail bondsman “hanging around” in Purgatory.

http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/purgatory3.htm
Your shallow caricature of the Roman Catholic Faith only illuminates your partiality or limits of knowledge of it or your intent to misrepresent it to enact some petty. Perhaps to demonstrate just how 'orthodox' you?

Jesus Christ not only opened Heaven but the divine Godhead to all humanity whom are willing to participate within it. Our Blessed Virgin was the first and the greatest of many Saints to follow her. I see no reason, no reason at all that would limit her charity toward us nor any barrier that would bar her visitation. You, sir or ma'am, are a brute and lack the wisdom to dialogue with those whom disagree with you without person insults and false characterizations.

You insult me and you insult the handmaid which has brought me to the very threshold of Eastern Orthodoxy. How dare you.
I ask for your forgiveness. 

(Please consider that you could be displacing anger or using anger as a defense mechanism.)
 

 

ms.hoorah

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bogdan said:
ms.hoorah said:
ignatius said:
I little respect toward our faith and the BVM would be nice. Perhaps, you feel Jesus was a fear-monger too?
I do not believe that Mary is the Jr. Savior who descends into Purgatory on the Saturday after someone’s death to release them from Purgatory if their family purchased enough mass cards or if they were wearing an itchy scapular at the moment of their death. Like yourself, I have the greatest of respect for the Mother of God and this is why I do not like having her portrayed as a shady bail bondsman “hanging around” in Purgatory.

http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/purgatory3.htm
It does seem bizarre to have the Mother of God saying "say the rosary five times on the first Saturday of five consecutive months and I'll get you out of purgatory". It sounds like a plea bargain. That's not the Theotokos I've come to see in Orthodoxy... ???
Be careful!  Someone on this thread will flame you and tell you that it is highly offensive to refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary as an attorney.  ;)

The Orthodox faith does not present the Mother of God as rescuing people from the place of after death punishment/Purgatory or as descending into the place of after death punishment/Purgatory to take people on tours.  These false teachings can and do drag individuals into false worship.  Yes, the Mother of God has an unparalleled role  in the Orthodox and Catholic faith and t is a greater role than any other Saint or angel, but it is always subordinate to the role of Christ. 

 

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ialmisry said:
In the background is a History Channel "documentary," and there is someone talking about Fatima, and someone is saying "the Blessed Mother showed the visionaries Hell, and it scared them so much that she had to assure them that they would go to heave."  They're also talking about the children self mortifying themselves for sinners.

I've come across this a lot as a theme "Visions of Hell" in Vatican approved/inspired "visions," but don't recall it in Orthodox hagiography.  What's with the "Virgin's" obsession with showing off hell in the West?
of course you would like to convey your message with anti-Catholic rhetoric. "obsession". How ridiculous. First of all, if you want to you accuse anyone of an "obsession" with hell, look to Our Lord who preached about hell more than anyone in the Bible. But then I think it might be dangerous to accuse the Lord of the universe with an "obsession". The reality is that hell exists and that it is a very real danger and possibility for all of us. Perhaps the Blessed Virgin Mary showed these children hell so that they might warn us. It was an act of love on Our Lady's part to warn us, just as it was an act of love on our Lord's part to warn us.
 

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ms.hoorah said:
ignatius said:
ms.hoorah said:
ignatius said:
I little respect toward our faith and the BVM would be nice. Perhaps, you feel Jesus was a fear-monger too?
I do not believe that Mary is the Jr. Savior who descends into Purgatory on the Saturday after someone’s death to release them from Purgatory if their family purchased enough mass cards or if they were wearing an itchy scapular at the moment of their death. Like yourself, I have the greatest of respect for the Mother of God and this is why I do not like having her portrayed as a shady bail bondsman “hanging around” in Purgatory.

http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/purgatory3.htm
Your shallow caricature of the Roman Catholic Faith only illuminates your partiality or limits of knowledge of it or your intent to misrepresent it to enact some petty. Perhaps to demonstrate just how 'orthodox' you?

Jesus Christ not only opened Heaven but the divine Godhead to all humanity whom are willing to participate within it. Our Blessed Virgin was the first and the greatest of many Saints to follow her. I see no reason, no reason at all that would limit her charity toward us nor any barrier that would bar her visitation. You, sir or ma'am, are a brute and lack the wisdom to dialogue with those whom disagree with you without person insults and false characterizations.

You insult me and you insult the handmaid which has brought me to the very threshold of Eastern Orthodoxy. How dare you.
I ask for your forgiveness. 

(Please consider that you could be displacing anger or using anger as a defense mechanism.)
ms.hoorah, is it really ethical for you to dispense unsolicited psychological advice on an Internet discussion board, especially in such a way that you subtly undermine the credibility of another participant in the debate?
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
ms.hoorah said:
ignatius said:
ms.hoorah said:
ignatius said:
I little respect toward our faith and the BVM would be nice. Perhaps, you feel Jesus was a fear-monger too?
I do not believe that Mary is the Jr. Savior who descends into Purgatory on the Saturday after someone’s death to release them from Purgatory if their family purchased enough mass cards or if they were wearing an itchy scapular at the moment of their death. Like yourself, I have the greatest of respect for the Mother of God and this is why I do not like having her portrayed as a shady bail bondsman “hanging around” in Purgatory.

http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/purgatory3.htm
Your shallow caricature of the Roman Catholic Faith only illuminates your partiality or limits of knowledge of it or your intent to misrepresent it to enact some petty. Perhaps to demonstrate just how 'orthodox' you?

Jesus Christ not only opened Heaven but the divine Godhead to all humanity whom are willing to participate within it. Our Blessed Virgin was the first and the greatest of many Saints to follow her. I see no reason, no reason at all that would limit her charity toward us nor any barrier that would bar her visitation. You, sir or ma'am, are a brute and lack the wisdom to dialogue with those whom disagree with you without person insults and false characterizations.

You insult me and you insult the handmaid which has brought me to the very threshold of Eastern Orthodoxy. How dare you.
I ask for your forgiveness. 

(Please consider that you could be displacing anger or using anger as a defense mechanism.)
ms.hoorah, is it really ethical for you to dispense unsolicited psychological advice on an Internet discussion board, especially in such a way that you subtly undermine the credibility of another participant in the debate?
What's subtle about it?
 

ignatius

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Fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell. ~ Mat. 10:28

I am counted among them that go down to the pit; I am become as a man without help, free among the dead. Like the slain sleeping in the sepulchers, whom thou rememberest no more; and they are cast off from thy hand. They have laid me in the lower pit; in the dark places, and in the shadow of death. ~ Ps. 87:5,7

I guess our Bless Virgin shouldn't remind us of the very visions that the Holy Spirit has brought to us in Sacred Text. No we should label God a Fear-Monger.


You insult our Tradition because you have forgotten it within your own.

We must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body according as he hath done, whether it be good or evil. ~ 2 C. 5:10

More Fear-Mongering..? perhaps you should edit these lies out from the Sacred Text? Perhaps we should use elaborate philosophies to explain them away? Not for me. I am willing to hear them and not judge them nor the visions other have of the BVM. I struggle with much of our Faith, even that which is shared between us under our Holy Father and our Eastern Brethren but I cast not dispersions against your Tradition nor your Saints. Take care in what you condemn.
 

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ms.hoorah said:
ignatius said:
I little respect toward our faith and the BVM would be nice. Perhaps, you feel Jesus was a fear-monger too?
I do not believe that Mary is the Jr. Savior who descends into Purgatory on the Saturday after someone’s death to release them from Purgatory if their family purchased enough mass cards or if they were wearing an itchy scapular at the moment of their death. Like yourself, I have the greatest of respect for the Mother of God and this is why I do not like having her portrayed as a shady bail bondsman “hanging around” in Purgatory.

http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/purgatory3.htm
Thou Holy maiden, Bringer-forth of God, look on my lowliness with tender heart, accept thou this my last and penitential prayer and make thou speed to rescue me from the tormenting endless fire. (from Ode 9 of the Canon to the Mother of God at the parting of the soul from the body)



 

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ms.hoorah said:
http://www.mt.net/~watcher/october13marygeorgia.html

Perhaps this message explains why some believe Mary may hanging out in purgatory.  To some Catholics, souls that are in purgatory can be released into heaven to honor Mary.  
Perhaps not, the claimed apparitions in Conyers are not approved or endorsed by the Catholic Church. 
 

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Deacon Lance said:
ms.hoorah said:
ignatius said:
I little respect toward our faith and the BVM would be nice. Perhaps, you feel Jesus was a fear-monger too?
I do not believe that Mary is the Jr. Savior who descends into Purgatory on the Saturday after someone’s death to release them from Purgatory if their family purchased enough mass cards or if they were wearing an itchy scapular at the moment of their death. Like yourself, I have the greatest of respect for the Mother of God and this is why I do not like having her portrayed as a shady bail bondsman “hanging around” in Purgatory.

http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/purgatory3.htm
Thou Holy maiden, Bringer-forth of God, look on my lowliness with tender heart, accept thou this my last and penitential prayer and make thou speed to rescue me from the tormenting endless fire. (from Ode 9 of the Canon to the Mother of God at the parting of the soul from the body)
That's different from the "you do this for me, and I'll do this for you" tone of Fatima though. Applying numerical values and quantifying heavenly mercy based on how many hoops we can jump through is disturbing to me.
 

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bogdan said:
Deacon Lance said:
ms.hoorah said:
ignatius said:
I little respect toward our faith and the BVM would be nice. Perhaps, you feel Jesus was a fear-monger too?
I do not believe that Mary is the Jr. Savior who descends into Purgatory on the Saturday after someone’s death to release them from Purgatory if their family purchased enough mass cards or if they were wearing an itchy scapular at the moment of their death. Like yourself, I have the greatest of respect for the Mother of God and this is why I do not like having her portrayed as a shady bail bondsman “hanging around” in Purgatory.

http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/purgatory3.htm

Thou Holy maiden, Bringer-forth of God, look on my lowliness with tender heart, accept thou this my last and penitential prayer and make thou speed to rescue me from the tormenting endless fire. (from Ode 9 of the Canon to the Mother of God at the parting of the soul from the body)
That's different from the "you do this for me, and I'll do this for you" tone of Fatima though.
You mean like when God says that if we repent of our sins and worship him he will save our souls?
 

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ms.hoorah said:
The Orthodox faith does not present the Mother of God as rescuing people from the place of after death punishment/Purgatory or as descending into the place of after death punishment/Purgatory to take people on tours.  These false teachings can and do drag individuals into false worship.  Yes, the Mother of God has an unparalleled role  in the Orthodox and Catholic faith and t is a greater role than any other Saint or angel, but it is always subordinate to the role of Christ. 
Whoops I meant to quote the above.  Point being the Eastern Church certainly does present the Mother of God as rescuer.  I don't think that makes her Savior Jr.  I get annoyed when people don't know their own traditions and then procede to pontificate on another's.
 

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Papist said:
bogdan said:
Deacon Lance said:
ms.hoorah said:
ignatius said:
I little respect toward our faith and the BVM would be nice. Perhaps, you feel Jesus was a fear-monger too?
I do not believe that Mary is the Jr. Savior who descends into Purgatory on the Saturday after someone’s death to release them from Purgatory if their family purchased enough mass cards or if they were wearing an itchy scapular at the moment of their death. Like yourself, I have the greatest of respect for the Mother of God and this is why I do not like having her portrayed as a shady bail bondsman “hanging around” in Purgatory.

http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/purgatory3.htm

Thou Holy maiden, Bringer-forth of God, look on my lowliness with tender heart, accept thou this my last and penitential prayer and make thou speed to rescue me from the tormenting endless fire. (from Ode 9 of the Canon to the Mother of God at the parting of the soul from the body)
That's different from the "you do this for me, and I'll do this for you" tone of Fatima though.
You mean like when God says that if we repent of our sins and worship him he will save our souls?
God doesn't say "say ten Our Fathers and I'll listen to you" or "spend 15 minutes in confession and I'll forgive you". He says to pray and he will listen, and to confess our sins. Like I added when I edited my post, the part that bothers me most is the quantification.
 

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bogdan said:
Papist said:
bogdan said:
Deacon Lance said:
ms.hoorah said:
ignatius said:
I little respect toward our faith and the BVM would be nice. Perhaps, you feel Jesus was a fear-monger too?
I do not believe that Mary is the Jr. Savior who descends into Purgatory on the Saturday after someone’s death to release them from Purgatory if their family purchased enough mass cards or if they were wearing an itchy scapular at the moment of their death. Like yourself, I have the greatest of respect for the Mother of God and this is why I do not like having her portrayed as a shady bail bondsman “hanging around” in Purgatory.

http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/purgatory3.htm

Thou Holy maiden, Bringer-forth of God, look on my lowliness with tender heart, accept thou this my last and penitential prayer and make thou speed to rescue me from the tormenting endless fire. (from Ode 9 of the Canon to the Mother of God at the parting of the soul from the body)
That's different from the "you do this for me, and I'll do this for you" tone of Fatima though.
You mean like when God says that if we repent of our sins and worship him he will save our souls?
God doesn't say "say ten Our Fathers and I'll listen to you" or "spend 15 minutes in confession and I'll forgive you". He says to pray and he will listen, and to confess our sins. Like I added when I edited my post, the part that bothers me most is the quantification.
The our Fathers and Hail Marys are called penance dude.
 

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bogdan said:
Applying numerical values and quantifying heavenly mercy based on how many hoops we can jump through is disturbing to me.
I take it then you are disturbed by being told to say a number of prescribed prayers in order to receive Holy Communion?  Many would consider that jumping through hoops.
 

Asteriktos

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Papist said:
The our Fathers and Hail Marys are called penance dude.
Perhaps part of the problem is that, it seems to me anyway, that Orthodox no longer give penances as they once did, saying things like "Do X number of prostrations, abstain from food (except bread) for X number of days, etc."  Usually when I've gone to Orthodox confession there is no penance given, it's just the obvious "don't do that anymore!" stuff. The only penances I've ever been given in Orthodox confession was being told to memorize (and try to live by) a specific Bible verse. I am not saying that I am comfortable with the formulaic manner of some of this stuff, but I think perhaps I can understand it a bit better, having read about how Orthodox priests used to give similar formulas.
 

ignatius

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bogdan said:
Deacon Lance said:
ms.hoorah said:
ignatius said:
I little respect toward our faith and the BVM would be nice. Perhaps, you feel Jesus was a fear-monger too?
I do not believe that Mary is the Jr. Savior who descends into Purgatory on the Saturday after someone’s death to release them from Purgatory if their family purchased enough mass cards or if they were wearing an itchy scapular at the moment of their death. Like yourself, I have the greatest of respect for the Mother of God and this is why I do not like having her portrayed as a shady bail bondsman “hanging around” in Purgatory.

http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/purgatory3.htm
Thou Holy maiden, Bringer-forth of God, look on my lowliness with tender heart, accept thou this my last and penitential prayer and make thou speed to rescue me from the tormenting endless fire. (from Ode 9 of the Canon to the Mother of God at the parting of the soul from the body)
That's different from the "you do this for me, and I'll do this for you" tone of Fatima though. Applying numerical values and quantifying heavenly mercy based on how many hoops we can jump through is disturbing to me.
You mean like saying the Optina 500 daily... or the Prayer of the Heart 5000 times? Repetition is part of our shared Christian Traditions. Some of these particular numbers, like 3, 7 and 40, are biblical numerology expressing itself in the religious piety of the people of God, be it east or west. Repetition leads to holiness because it penetrates our inner being and binds with our subconscious in ways no other method does. The spiritual fathers of both the East and West knew this as well as the Saints (i.e. BVM).

Personally, I don't know exactly what was spoken at Fatima but we must recognize that the message of the Blessed Mother was spoken in the words of children, with this in mind, take care in dismissing what was taught as being childish. I believe the Blessed Mother chose children for a reason but as Roman Catholics we are guilded by the Bishops and the Holy Father that such visions can be accepted or not. Disparaging folk piety for it's lack of sophistication is beside the point. Remember, most of Orthodoxy read in the west has been translated in the last 50 years and thus filtered. Most cradle Orthodox from the East are far less critical of such things because they know full well the same kinds of piety's are present in Orthodoxy.
 

ialmisry

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Deacon Lance said:
bogdan said:
Applying numerical values and quantifying heavenly mercy based on how many hoops we can jump through is disturbing to me.
I take it then you are disturbed by being told to say a number of prescribed prayers in order to receive Holy Communion?  Many would consider that jumping through hoops.
I've seen several canon for Communion, but none which set a number of prescribed prayers (say 12 "Our Fathers" etc.), beyond 3x, 12x Lord have mercy, or the Trisagion.
 

ignatius

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ialmisry said:
Deacon Lance said:
bogdan said:
Applying numerical values and quantifying heavenly mercy based on how many hoops we can jump through is disturbing to me.
I take it then you are disturbed by being told to say a number of prescribed prayers in order to receive Holy Communion?  Many would consider that jumping through hoops.
I've seen several canon for Communion, but none which set a number of prescribed prayers (say 12 "Our Fathers" etc.), beyond 3x, 12x Lord have mercy, or the Trisagion.
3x, 12x, 7x, 40x... these are 'all' biblical numerology which manifested within the piety of the early Church. We even see them present in our Liturgies. I still think this is much ado about nothing.
 

Alveus Lacuna

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I've been given an obedience to recite the Akathist to the Mother of God for 40 consecutive days by my Orthodox priest, although obviously not as a "penance" in confession, as I am still only a Byzantine Catechumen Christian.

So there is a similarity in the prescription of saying a certain number of prayers a certain number of times, but the priest of Christ also told me to do so without expecting any particular results.
 

bogdan

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Pastoral situations are not the same thing as this. Nor are they, as Alveus pointed out, expecting specific results, aside getting ourselves on track. They don't seek to buy off the Heavenlies.

This would not be an obstacle for me if it was presented in the context of a relationship - "I can intercede for you better if I know you better, so spend some more time with me and pray the rosary every day." But it's not presented that way. It's "If you do X, Y number of times, I'll do Z."

It reminds me of the guidelines in some old Catholic Bibles that would give (for example) a year out of Purgatory for every 15 minutes of Bible reading. It's the numbers game/vending machine aspect.
 

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bogdan said:
Pastoral situations are not the same thing as this. Nor are they, as Alveus pointed out, expecting specific results, aside getting ourselves on track. They don't seek to buy off the Heavenlies.

This would not be an obstacle for me if it was presented in the context of a relationship - "I can intercede for you better if I know you better, so spend some more time with me and pray the rosary every day." But it's not presented that way. It's "If you do X, Y number of times, I'll do Z."

It reminds me of the guidelines in some old Catholic Bibles that would give (for example) a year out of Purgatory for every 15 minutes of Bible reading. It's the numbers game/vending machine aspect.
It doesn't mean a year out of purgatory. It means a year worth of indulgence.
 

ignatius

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Altar Server said:
That dosen't make it any better (and I'm Catholic)
Being Catholic do you feel these folk-recipes are an integral part of Western Spirituality? If so, why are these not found in the Catechisms?
 

ignatius

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Altar Server said:
I'm sorry brother I don't quite get what you mean.
What do you make of these spiritual recipes and why are they missing from every Catechism?


PS: doing a little dance now that I've got "1000 posts" Wow!
 
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