• For users new and old: the forum rules were streamlined when we transitioned to the new software. Please ensure that you are familiar with them. Continued use of the forum means that you (a) know the rules, and (b) pledge that you'll abide by them. For more information, check out the OrthodoxChristianity.Net Rules section. (There are only 2 threads there - Rules, and Administrative Structure.)

When Christians say that Jesus Christ died for our sins...

LucianNae

Jr. Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2021
Messages
72
Reaction score
8
Points
8
Location
Romania
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Patriarchate of Romania
... what exactly do they mean by that? What's the correlation between the capital punishment He suffered after being falsely accused of blasphemy by the Israelite high priests and our sins? Is there a rational explanation for why He had to die, or is it all considered a mystery?
 

sestir

bokareis
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
335
Reaction score
17
Points
18
Location
Wist Po Marein / Zachodniopomorsk
Website
weihos.eu
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
independent
When enough sin has accumulated in a population, people will form first virtual and then physical mobs, attacking righteous persons. This is because humans like people who are similar to themselves. So a sinner likes to be around a righteous person, taking advantage of his/her virtues, but at the end of the day, the sinner really wants to get rid of righteous persons since such people make the sinner come across as morally or ethically inferior, or the sinner might presume that their victim will take revenge. I have no source for this; just observations from a country where public discourse has turned weird in this way.

It even shew in football, if one player made an offence against another in order to gain control of the ball, the referee ignored it. When the player who lost the ball ran full speed home to participate in the defence, the referee blew the whistle and shew him the yellow card because the referee anticipated that he might want to revenge himself on the ball carrier.

Then, there are connexions with the various sacrifices made at the temple, and probably many other explanations that we hope to read below. :]
 

Katechon

Elder
Joined
Nov 16, 2018
Messages
407
Reaction score
169
Points
43
Location
Germany
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
ROC-MP
... what exactly do they mean by that? What's the correlation between the capital punishment He suffered after being falsely accused of blasphemy by the Israelite high priests and our sins? Is there a rational explanation for why He had to die, or is it all considered a mystery?
He voluntarily died to fill death, even the most shameful death, with his presence. Death is the result of human sin, and he abolished it through his own death: through his presence in death, he gave eternal life to all men.
 

Ainnir

Taxiarches
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
7,372
Reaction score
748
Points
113
Age
38
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Antiochian
Whom are you referring to when you say "Christians"?
 

LucianNae

Jr. Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2021
Messages
72
Reaction score
8
Points
8
Location
Romania
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Patriarchate of Romania
He voluntarily died to fill death, even the most shameful death, with his presence. Death is the result of human sin, and he abolished it through his own death: through his presence in death, he gave eternal life to all men.
So why do people still die?
 

Fr. George

Stratopedarches
Staff member
Administrator
Joined
Oct 5, 2004
Messages
22,044
Reaction score
258
Points
83
Age
40
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh
So why do people still die?
Because we need to - without death there would be no changability, which we need to repent. Christ's death ended the finality of death - the seemingly hopeless separation from the promised destiny of the Kingdom. Death personified was vanquished, but the physical process of bodily death continues, in order to allow us to see and repent, in the way it did for Adam & Eve; otherwise we would live eternally in sin, like the fallen angels.
 

Fr. George

Stratopedarches
Staff member
Administrator
Joined
Oct 5, 2004
Messages
22,044
Reaction score
258
Points
83
Age
40
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh
The people who believe in the Christian doctrine.
I think the point being driven at by Ainnir & Katechon is that, especially when talking about topics like salvation, there is no uniformity across Christian groups. To have an effective conversation, we really have to start defining what we mean by certain terms (like "saved," for example) before we can figure out what's being understood by each group claiming to be Christian. There are some fairly radical differences between Protestant denominations, let alone between any of the Prot groups and Orthodoxy (or the RCs).
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,519
Reaction score
198
Points
63
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
... what exactly do they mean by that? What's the correlation between the capital punishment He suffered after being falsely accused of blasphemy by the Israelite high priests and our sins? Is there a rational explanation for why He had to die, or is it all considered a mystery?
Man as a race is under the law of death since Adam's transgression. Christ was a person who didn't meet the prerequisites of dying in sin and conquered death because of it.
 

Fr. George

Stratopedarches
Staff member
Administrator
Joined
Oct 5, 2004
Messages
22,044
Reaction score
258
Points
83
Age
40
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh
To see what?
The inevitable result of sin (whether we're talking about mistakes or rebellion). God kills an animal in front of Adam & Eve to show them death, since it was a foreign concept - and once we see it, it should humble us and lead us on a path where we strive against sin, so that the death we see in the flesh doesn't become an eternal reality for us.

Many of the monastic fathers in Orthodoxy tell us to keep death in mind at all times - not to be despondent, macabre, etc., but to remember how fleeting life in this state is, and to drive us to both repent and to treat each moment with the gravity it deserves. If we are mindful of our mortality in humility, then we become less hostile, we hold fewer grudges, we are kinder to strangers, we don't see people as burdens. It becomes easier to live the calling of the Christian life day-to-day, remembering that I may not have a tomorrow to make up for today's mistakes.
 

Fr. George

Stratopedarches
Staff member
Administrator
Joined
Oct 5, 2004
Messages
22,044
Reaction score
258
Points
83
Age
40
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh
So how come some of us don't see it despite having prayed for years?
1. It's not a magic trick. It happens if it needs to, if you're ready for it. Most people who encounter God in Scripture knowing Who He really is, fall down on their faces / turn away - between His brilliance and the remembrance of their own sinfulness, it's a humbling experience.

2. Who says you haven't encountered His presence before? As the Prophet Elijah encountered him on Mt. Horeb, so many of us do in our lives: (emphasis mine)

3 Kingdoms (1 Kings) 19:8-13:
So he arose, and ate and drank; and he went in the strength of that food forty days and forty nights as far as Horeb, the mountain of God. And there he went into a cave, and spent the night in that place; and behold, the word of the Lord came to him, and He said to him, “What are you doing here, Elijah?” So he said, “I have been very zealous for the Lord God of hosts; for the children of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars, and killed Your prophets with the sword. I alone am left; and they seek to take my life.” Then He said, “Go out, and stand on the mountain before the Lord.” And behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind tore into the mountains and broke the rocks in pieces before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake; and after the earthquake a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire; and after the fire a still small voice. So it was, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle and went out and stood in the entrance of the cave. Suddenly a voice came to him, and said, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”
 

LucianNae

Jr. Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2021
Messages
72
Reaction score
8
Points
8
Location
Romania
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Patriarchate of Romania
Man as a race is under the law of death since Adam's transgression. Christ was a person who didn't meet the prerequisites of dying in sin and conquered death because of it.
I don't get it. It makes no sense to me. And, according to 1 Corinthians 1:18, that means I'm perishing.
 

Ainnir

Taxiarches
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
7,372
Reaction score
748
Points
113
Age
38
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Antiochian
Realizing we are perishing is the first step back to life.
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,519
Reaction score
198
Points
63
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
I don't get it. It makes no sense to me. And, according to 1 Corinthians 1:18, that means I'm perishing.
It's actually a good sign that your perception of reality is inspiring your spirit.

According to baptismal theology you're not perishing but being made alive. Ephesians 2:4
 

LucianNae

Jr. Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2021
Messages
72
Reaction score
8
Points
8
Location
Romania
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Patriarchate of Romania
There is no generic "Christian" doctrine.
So how does one get officially recognized as a Christian by the rest of the non-Christian population?
 

Ainnir

Taxiarches
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
7,372
Reaction score
748
Points
113
Age
38
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Antiochian
So how does one get officially recognized as a Christian by the rest of the non-Christian population?
Act like Christ.

But it's probably better to be officially recognized as a Christian by God.
 

LucianNae

Jr. Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2021
Messages
72
Reaction score
8
Points
8
Location
Romania
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Patriarchate of Romania
Act like Christ.
According to the Bible, Christ manifested inconsistencies in His behavior. How can I know which parts of His behavior to apply in which situation? For example, am I allowed to curse trees that don't have fruit if I'm hungry when I walk past them? Am I allowed to refuse helping women the first time they ask me for help to see whether they'll humble themselves and keep pleading for my help?
 

Ainnir

Taxiarches
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
7,372
Reaction score
748
Points
113
Age
38
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Antiochian
According to the Bible, Christ manifested inconsistencies in His behavior. How can I know which parts of His behavior to apply in which situation? For example, am I allowed to curse trees that don't have fruit if I'm hungry when I walk past them? Am I allowed to refuse helping women the first time they ask me for help to see whether they'll humble themselves and keep pleading for my help?
No, according to you, Christ manifested inconsistencies in His behavior.

Why do you want to be perceived as a Christian by non-Christians? I’m having a hard time understanding that.
 

LucianNae

Jr. Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2021
Messages
72
Reaction score
8
Points
8
Location
Romania
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Patriarchate of Romania
Yes, according to my understanding, Christ manifested inconsistencies in His behavior. You recommended me to act like Christ. How can I do that other than by mimicking the behavior of Christ that exists in my mind as a result of my personal perception of what I've read in the Bible?

I didn't say I wanted to be perceived as a Christian by non-Christians. I merely asked how one can label themselves a Christian if there's no general consensus on what a Christian is supposed to believe.
 

Stinky

Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2020
Messages
1,872
Reaction score
742
Points
113
Location
US
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Near/far
So how does one get officially recognized as a Christian by the rest of the non-Christian population?
John 13:35
New King James Version
35 (A)By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,519
Reaction score
198
Points
63
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
Yes, according to my understanding, Christ manifested inconsistencies in His behavior. You recommended me to act like Christ. How can I do that other than by mimicking the behavior of Christ that exists in my mind as a result of my personal perception of what I've read in the Bible?

I didn't say I wanted to be perceived as a Christian by non-Christians. I merely asked how one can label themselves a Christian if there's no general consensus on what a Christian is supposed to believe.
According to the church, when you are baptized, you receive the HS and are guided by him into salvation.
 

Ainnir

Taxiarches
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
7,372
Reaction score
748
Points
113
Age
38
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Antiochian
Yes, according to my understanding, Christ manifested inconsistencies in His behavior. You recommended me to act like Christ. How can I do that other than by mimicking the behavior of Christ that exists in my mind as a result of my personal perception of what I've read in the Bible?

I didn't say I wanted to be perceived as a Christian by non-Christians. I merely asked how one can label themselves a Christian if there's no general consensus on what a Christian is supposed to believe.
I see. May God direct your steps. 🙂
 

Fr. George

Stratopedarches
Staff member
Administrator
Joined
Oct 5, 2004
Messages
22,044
Reaction score
258
Points
83
Age
40
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Yes, according to my understanding, Christ manifested inconsistencies in His behavior.
Ainnir was drawing this out from you to make a contrast - we (as the Orthodox church) do not see inconsistencies in Christ's behavior. He came to vanquish the spiritual enemies of His people and to bring the world into balance - and as the only sinless one, He remained in a unique place to judge impartially. So cursing the fig tree was just, as was forgiving the adulteress while saying "go and sin no more," as was characterizing the Pharisees as "brood of vipers," as was sending Judas out to baptize and heal and cast out demons despite knowing what he would do. His behavior is consistent with Who He Is, from the broadest POV.

You recommended me to act like Christ. How can I do that other than by mimicking the behavior of Christ that exists in my mind as a result of my personal perception of what I've read in the Bible?
Believe it or not, Christ is pretty consistent from OT (pre-incarnate manifestations and interactions) to the NT. Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, show compassion on the poor & widow & orphan & stranger, oppose temptation and the spiritual forces who seek to drive you from God, worship the Lord in all truth, recognize that everything in the world belongs to God and we're just stewards of them temporarily, etc.

I didn't say I wanted to be perceived as a Christian by non-Christians. I merely asked how one can label themselves a Christian if there's no general consensus on what a Christian is supposed to believe.
You can't label yourself a Christian - that can only be done by the Christian community (who do so only through their union with Christ). You've got to be a member of the community, striving alongside them, in order to be working and walking in the right direction. I love the forum, and have been a part of online Orthodox discussions for many moons now - but none of it substitutes for your parish.
 
Top