Why 1054?

Alveus Lacuna

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LBK said:
A look at the vigil text for the feasts of the Veneration of the Cross (3rd Sunday of Great Lent), and the Exaltation of the Cross (September 14) make the Orthodox Church's position quite clear. Both feasts are "universal" feasts of the Church, i.e. are celebrated by all local Orthodox churches, not just the Russian. The church also has feasts for various icons of the Mother of God, for the Mandylion of Christ, the veneration of the chains of Apostle Peter, the Deposition of the belt of the Mother of God, etc. These items became holy through the actions of those who were themselves holy, and are treated with the same honour and reverence as relics and icons.
Yes, but in the liturgical books does the congregation pray to the chains, to the cross, to the deposition belt as if they are persons?  As in: "Holy Chains of St. Peter, free me from my sins!!"  Because my prayer book contains prayer to the cross, and I am wondering if it is theologically Orthodox.
 

Irish Hermit

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AMM said:
I did mention one example before, and that is the entire Carpatho-Russian diocese was received through the stroke of a pen. 
I am not sure if any Carpatho-Russians were received by being stroked with a pen.  Must be an ACROD ritual?  ;D

They were recived by Confession and Communion.  If you read the Hapgood Service Book it gives the three methods employed by the Russian Church to receive non-Orthodox Christians.  Via Confession and Communion is one of them and is the method usually, if not always, used to receive Greek Catholics of the Byzantine Rite.
 

ialmisry

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Irish Hermit said:
AMM said:
I did mention one example before, and that is the entire Carpatho-Russian diocese was received through the stroke of a pen. 
I am not sure if any Carpatho-Russians were received by being stroked with a pen.  Must be an ACROD ritual?   ;D

They were recived by Confession and Communion.  If you read the Hapgood Service Book it gives the three methods employed by the Russian Church to receive non-Orthodox Christians.  Via Confession and Communion is one of them and is the method usually, if not always, used to receive Greek Catholics of the Byzantine Rite.
A Ukrainian just asked me today about this (he says he considers himself Orthodox, and has no use for the Latins).
 

Friul

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Topic Split:  Communion and Schism

The split is far from perfect, but discussions specifically about schism, communion, its effects, state of your soul, etc. should go into the above split.

This thread should get back on topic. It is to revolve around 1054 and other dates pertaining to the split between East and West.


Thank you.

-- Nebelpfade
 

welkodox

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Irish Hermit said:
AMM said:
I did mention one example before, and that is the entire Carpatho-Russian diocese was received through the stroke of a pen. 
I am not sure if any Carpatho-Russians were received by being stroked with a pen.  Must be an ACROD ritual?   ;D

They were recived by Confession and Communion.  If you read the Hapgood Service Book it gives the three methods employed by the Russian Church to receive non-Orthodox Christians.  Via Confession and Communion is one of them and is the method usually, if not always, used to receive Greek Catholics of the Byzantine Rite.
Yes, there was no chrismation involved, as the faithful had already been baptized and chrismated.  More importantly, all priests were received in their orders, including Metropolitan Orestes who was then consecrated a bishop.  In other words, at the stroke of a pen.

It's certainly not the only example of the recognition of the efficacy and validity of Catholic sacraments.
 

PoorFoolNicholas

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Irish Hermit said:
I am not sure if any Carpatho-Russians were received by being stroked with a pen.  Must be an ACROD ritual?   ;D
Hilarious!  ;D If, the Schism is pushed "officially" to 1484 why don't we venerate saints from the Catholic tradition that fit within that window in the Orthodox Church? Why don't we participate in the Catholic devotions that fit within that window? As I asked before, St. Francis would clearly fit, as would St Bernard of Clairvaux, St. Thomas Aquinas, etc. I guess, I just don't see why we stop at 1054, the more I learn about the nature of the Schism. Thoughts?
 

welkodox

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If, the Schism is pushed "officially" to 1484 why don't we venerate saints from the Catholic tradition that fit within that window in the Orthodox Church? Why don't we participate in the Catholic devotions that fit within that window?
Probably because of both of those for in many ways are about the the particulars of local churches.  Same reason you will find emphasis on some saints, practices, devotions, etc. in some local Orthodox churches but not in others.

Some more recent saints are commemorated though.  Here's one example

There is reason to celebrate: Last August, on the feast of the Dormition of Mary, Metropolitan Nicholas proclaimed that the second Sunday after each Pentecost “shall be celebrated as the Synaxis [assembly] of the Carpatho-Rusyn Saints.” The ruling hierarch of the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church included two 20th-century Greek Catholic martyrs in the list of saints, Blesseds Pavel Gojdic and Teodor Romzha, recognizing them for their “holiness, witness and supreme sacrifice for the Christian faith and for the Rusyn people.”

This extraordinary yet little-known gesture acknowledges not only the common faith uniting all Rusyns, but symbolically calls for the healing of all Catholics and Orthodox Christians.
http://www.cnewa.org/mag-article-bodypg-us.aspx?articleID=3229
 

PoorFoolNicholas

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Are we encouraged, as Orthodox Christians, NOT to venerate saints after 1054, or would we find some that would say 1484?
 

Papist

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PoorFoolNicholas said:
Are we encouraged, as Orthodox Christians, NOT to venerate saints after 1054, or would we find some that would say 1484?
I am encouraging you as an Orthodox Christian (you being one) to venerate Latin saints after 1054. LOL  ;D


I Jest!
 

PoorFoolNicholas

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Papist said:
I am encouraging you as an Orthodox Christian (you being one) to venerate Latin saints after 1054. LOL  ;D
I Jest!
Hardy Har!  :laugh: Anyone without a Catholic bias want to answer? ;)
 

NorthernPines

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PoorFoolNicholas said:
Are we encouraged, as Orthodox Christians, NOT to venerate saints after 1054, or would we find some that would say 1484?
It depends on who you ask! :)

I venerate St. Francis in my personal devotions, ask for his intercessions like I do any saint. I don't see a problem. Other Orthodox would strongly disagree. In the end, the Church does not say who you can and cannot venerate in your own personal devotions. (well within in reason, I mean I suppose venerating Hitler would be problematic, but I think you get the point) After all that's how canonization begins in the Orthodox Church, by people's private devotions, and asking so and so for prayers etc...Canonization just makes it "officially" acceptable to venerate them Liturgically. (that is if I understand our process correctly)

New Skete (an Orthodox monastery that was formerly Byzantine Catholic following the Franciscan tradition I believe) I'm pretty sure  still venerates him and has icons of him. So in isolated local cases it's not totally unheard of. I also pray the Rosary, (without the meditations) as the prayers involved go back WAY before 1054AD, so again, I really do not see a problem. Other Orthodox disagree and think the Rosary is not acceptable. So it just depends.

Personally, I think 1054 is an arbitrary date, and a later date should certainly be used as the point where the schism was truly put into practical use, but that's just my opinion.

edited to clarify, hopefully I didn't muddle it even more...:)







 

PoorFoolNicholas

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NorthernPines said:
Personally, I think 1054 is an arbitrary date, and a later date should certainly be used as the point where the schism was truly put into practical use, but that's just my opinion.
I agree.
 

PoorFoolNicholas

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I can anticipate that some would say venerating saints of the Catholic Tradition up to 1484 is problematic because of certain false teachings/heresies. But on the other end of the issue, we Orthodox have many saints that taught false ideas/heresies, and we still venerate/commemorate them. Thoughts? Am I way off?
 

welkodox

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I can anticipate that some would say venerating saints of the Catholic Tradition up to 1484 is problematic because of certain false teachings/heresies.
Look before the East/West schism.

There are saints we commemorate even before the schism such as St. Isaac of Syria (Nestorian), St. Nicetas the Goth (Arian) and St. David of Garesja (anti Chalcedonian).  In other words the boundaries are not always well defined in the East.

I think the important thing to remember as well is private devotion and/or veneration is not the same thing as public commemoration.

Blessed Damien of Molokai pray for us all!
 

PoorFoolNicholas

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AMM said:
There are saints we commemorate even before the schism such as St. Isaac of Syria (Nestorian), St. Nicetas the Goth (Arian) and St. David of Garesja (anti Chalcedonian).  In other words the boundaries are not always well defined in the East.

I think the important thing to remember as well is private devotion and/or veneration is not the same thing as public commemoration.

Blessed Damien of Molokai pray for us all!
Good points. Are there any here that want to completely disagree?
 

serb1389

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PoorFoolNicholas said:
AMM said:
There are saints we commemorate even before the schism such as St. Isaac of Syria (Nestorian), St. Nicetas the Goth (Arian) and St. David of Garesja (anti Chalcedonian).  In other words the boundaries are not always well defined in the East.

I think the important thing to remember as well is private devotion and/or veneration is not the same thing as public commemoration.

Blessed Damien of Molokai pray for us all!
Good points. Are there any here that want to completely disagree?
First of all I'd LOVE to know what sources you are using to say that St. Isaac of Syria was Nestorian.  Also, same thing goes for St. Nicetas and St. David.  Some kind of validation of those statements is definitely necessary. 

On point, however, i think it is very complicated, but there are definitely some boundaries that usually arn't crossed. 
 
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