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Why are the Oriental Orthodox so Hypocritical about Nationalism?

JamesR

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Every member of the Oriental Orthodox Church is some sort of Black nationalist or white guy infatuated with Rasta culture who will insist until they are blue in the face that there are no theological differences between them and the Eastern Orthodox, yet they still feel the need to worship at their own parish with other dark skinned people rather than the local Russian one down the street. This is especially evident when you see them waving Ethiopian flags and glorifying Haile Selassie while simultaneously criticizing the Eastern Orthodox and especially Russia for aligning itself so closely with the state. How can you criticize phyletism, nationalism, and putting one’s faith in princes and sons of man when your entire faith is predicated upon some sort of eschatological view of Ethiopia and Rasta culture?
 

Iconodule

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I admire your nuanced and levelheaded approach to this topic.
 

biro

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The Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox are out of Communion. It would make no sense for a member of the Ethiopian Church to go to a Russian church.
 

Arachne

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Good to see you back for your birthday fix, J.
 

youssef

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i should you should go pray with the ethiopian. Why i feel a white supermacy in your post.
 

youssef

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youssef said:
i should you should go pray with the ethiopian. Why i feel a white supermacy in your post.
i think you should go pray with the ethiopian.
 

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I would love to attend an EO church. It's not really the top priority right now for me because I cannot receive there. I do see us as being theologically the same. But I submit to the authorities of my jurisdiction in regards to communing at EO. I would however love to visit the Greek Orthodox Church nearby me even if not to commune there.
 

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biro said:
The Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox are out of Communion. It would make no sense for a member of the Ethiopian Church to go to a Russian church.
From the title to the content of the post,  I have my doubts even pointing out a basic fact like that is worth it.  The tone seems a bit hyperbolic.
 

biro

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William T said:
biro said:
The Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox are out of Communion. It would make no sense for a member of the Ethiopian Church to go to a Russian church.
From the title to the content of the post,  I have my doubts even pointing out a basic fact like that is worth it.  The tone seems a bit hyperbolic.
Okay then.
 

minasoliman

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Happy Birthday James!  I pray another more blessed year for you brother.
 

Volnutt

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JamesR said:
Every member of the Oriental Orthodox Church is some sort of Black nationalist or white guy infatuated with Rasta culture who will insist until they are blue in the face that there are no theological differences between them and the Eastern Orthodox, yet they still feel the need to worship at their own parish with other dark skinned people rather than the local Russian one down the street.
They might be the same theologically (and I think they most likely are), but they are still different churches with different rites and different community ties within each individual congregation. You might as well chide the members of Greek or Antiochian Church X for the "hypocrisy" of not going to Russian Church Y down the street. You're being myopic.

JamesR said:
This is especially evident when you see them waving Ethiopian flags and glorifying Haile Selassie while simultaneously criticizing the Eastern Orthodox and especially Russia for aligning itself so closely with the state. How can you criticize phyletism, nationalism, and putting one’s faith in princes and sons of man when your entire faith is predicated upon some sort of eschatological view of Ethiopia and Rasta culture?
Well, one salient difference is that the Russian state is insanely corrupt whereas the Ethiopian monarchy has been out of power since the 50s, but let's not get into whiteman Babylon's politricks.

Why do you think that most of them are motivated by eschatology or racism and not just the fact that they feel more comfortable in the community that they happen to have been born or converted into? Yes, it's tragic that Sunday is the most segregated day in America, but that's an issue that effects all of Christianity in this country and reflects the inertia of two+ centuries of cultural events that are far bigger than any one guy in a Bob Marley shirt.
 

Volnutt

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youssef said:
i should you should go pray with the ethiopian. Why i feel a white supermacy in your post.
Well, tbf, James is at least half-Mexican. But I think it is fine to ask why he expects others to leave their Church homes for Russian ones before him taking the first initiative and joining an Ethiopian Church.

"I'm white, but if there was an Ethiopian Church near me I would seriously consider joining just because I love their liturgy and culture;" Volnutt said, in an act of totally not virtue signalling.
 

JamesR

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It is nice to hear from you again. You were one of my favorite posters. We should exchange emails sometime.

Volnutt said:
Well, tbf, James is at least half-Mexican. But I think it is fine to ask why he expects others to leave their Church homes for Russian ones before him taking the first initiative and joining an Ethiopian Church.
Well for starters, because I am not the one claiming that the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox are entirely the same despite being out of communion with each other. I am not saying that we are different either or that the are heretics - I am simply not qualified enough to answer. Only that for those of us who do claim that we are the same, usually the Oriental Orthodox, it strikes me as very hypocritical or at least inconsistent with their logic to attend a struggling Ethiopian parish with hardly any members rather than merge with the larger Greek or Russian parish down the street. I would say the same thing if the tables were reversed only I’ve found that the Greeks and Russians are at least honest enough to admit that their reluctance is the result of nationalism whereas the Oriental Orthodox claim to somehow be above that.

Why do you think that most of them are motivated by eschatology or racism and not just the fact that they feel more comfortable in the community that they happen to have been born or converted into?
I don’t. My question is not so much why the Oriental Orthodox are nationalistic as much as it is why they are so hypocritical about it. We Orthodox are the most nationalistic branch of Christianity in the world yet like I stated above, I’ve found that the Eastern Orthodox are at least honest about it whereas the Oriental Orthodox claim it does not exist and/or try to hide it. That would be understandable in and of itself, but when they are simultaneously criticizing the Eastern Orthodox for the same exact thing, calling every political establishment Babylon, accusing them of racism and white supremacy, and likening the use of flags to idolatry it strikes me as hypocritical. And no, I am not speaking of Gebre. He has criticized Haile Selassie before so he is at least consistent in his ideology. But there are others like Gebre who do all of these things despite sporting the Ethiopian flag and glorifying Emperor Selassie as if he were some sort of saint, claiming to be “woke” and supporting Black nationalism. And yeah, it usually comes from strange white guys in Bob Marley shirts.
 

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JamesR said:
It is nice to hear from you again. You were one of my favorite posters. We should exchange emails sometime.

Volnutt said:
Well, tbf, James is at least half-Mexican. But I think it is fine to ask why he expects others to leave their Church homes for Russian ones before him taking the first initiative and joining an Ethiopian Church.
Well for starters, because I am not the one claiming that the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox are entirely the same despite being out of communion with each other. I am not saying that we are different either or that the are heretics - I am simply not qualified enough to answer. Only that for those of us who do claim that we are the same, usually the Oriental Orthodox, it strikes me as very hypocritical or at least inconsistent with their logic to attend a struggling Ethiopian parish with hardly any members rather than merge with the larger Greek or Russian parish down the street. I would say the same thing if the tables were reversed only I’ve found that the Greeks and Russians are at least honest enough to admit that their reluctance is the result of nationalism whereas the Oriental Orthodox claim to somehow be above that.

Why do you think that most of them are motivated by eschatology or racism and not just the fact that they feel more comfortable in the community that they happen to have been born or converted into?
I don’t. My question is not so much why the Oriental Orthodox are nationalistic as much as it is why they are so hypocritical about it. We Orthodox are the most nationalistic branch of Christianity in the world yet like I stated above, I’ve found that the Eastern Orthodox are at least honest about it whereas the Oriental Orthodox claim it does not exist and/or try to hide it. That would be understandable in and of itself, but when they are simultaneously criticizing the Eastern Orthodox for the same exact thing, calling every political establishment Babylon, accusing them of racism and white supremacy, and likening the use of flags to idolatry it strikes me as hypocritical. And no, I am not speaking of Gebre. He has criticized Haile Selassie before so he is at least consistent in his ideology. But there are others like Gebre who do all of these things despite sporting the Ethiopian flag and glorifying Emperor Selassie as if he were some sort of saint, claiming to be “woke” and supporting Black nationalism. And yeah, it usually comes from strange white guys in Bob Marley shirts.
Why should they attend another parish of a different jurisdiction nust because of a "larger congregation"? They can't take communion there. And they shouldn't be expected to convert either. Also, some people prefer smaller congregations. I personally find them more intimate, and appreciate them. I know this because my parish back home is enormous. There are something like 3000 families registered there. The one I go to now actually meets in a Catholic parish that we rent in a city so the students who can't access the main parish 13 miles away can still attend Liturgy, Bible Study, and Vespers. With a smaller congregation it is more inclusive of everyone and everyone can serve a role. Not to mention, as a person with ADHD, a huge congregation can get quite distracting for me.

Not to mention, I will never leave the Coptic Orthodox Church. No matter how similar I feel the theology of EO and OO are, and no matter how much I believe that schism was mostly, if not entirely political, I will not convert out of the Coptic Orthodox Church. It is such a blessing for me to belong to a jurisdiction of martyrs. Even looking in from the USA, the faith and courage of my brothers and sisters in Egypt is one of the most inspiring things in my faith. So visiting? Sure! Absolutely! Attending consistently? Nope. I can't Commune. "Converting"? Absolutely not.
 

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JamesR said:
Every member of the Oriental Orthodox Church is some sort of Black nationalist or white guy infatuated with Rasta culture who will insist until they are blue in the face that there are no theological differences between them and the Eastern Orthodox, yet they still feel the need to worship at their own parish with other dark skinned people rather than the local Russian one down the street. This is especially evident when you see them waving Ethiopian flags and glorifying Haile Selassie while simultaneously criticizing the Eastern Orthodox and especially Russia for aligning itself so closely with the state. How can you criticize phyletism, nationalism, and putting one’s faith in princes and sons of man when your entire faith is predicated upon some sort of eschatological view of Ethiopia and Rasta culture?
Tbh I have noticed this with a lot of OO converts. However, I have noticed plenty of EO converts acting much the same towards Russia. I mean, I've been criticized myself for not being pro-Putin. Some people have even gone as far as deeming me a heretic. That aside, though, I think the struggles of the OO church are just easy for a lot of people to get behind. Copts in particular come to mind. They're regularly being blown up by ISIS so a lot of people sympathize with them. As for the Ethiopians, I think it stems more from the whole Black Nationalism movement. People feel blacks are oppressed, particularly in modern America so again see a cause that's easy for them to get behind.
 

Volnutt

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JamesR said:
It is nice to hear from you again. You were one of my favorite posters. We should exchange emails sometime.
Good to see you, too.

JamesR said:
Volnutt said:
Well, tbf, James is at least half-Mexican. But I think it is fine to ask why he expects others to leave their Church homes for Russian ones before him taking the first initiative and joining an Ethiopian Church.
Well for starters, because I am not the one claiming that the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox are entirely the same despite being out of communion with each other. I am not saying that we are different either or that the are heretics - I am simply not qualified enough to answer. Only that for those of us who do claim that we are the same, usually the Oriental Orthodox, it strikes me as very hypocritical or at least inconsistent with their logic to attend a struggling Ethiopian parish with hardly any members rather than merge with the larger Greek or Russian parish down the street. I would say the same thing if the tables were reversed only I’ve found that the Greeks and Russians are at least honest enough to admit that their reluctance is the result of nationalism whereas the Oriental Orthodox claim to somehow be above that.
Well, like LoveJoyPeace said, the fact is that they aren't in communion. Compare it to the way some EO feel about the Catholic Church. So, what ever points about "logistics" issues that one might raise, it's kind of a silly thing to demand of them if the Bishops haven't formally established anything (and even then, there's plenty of cases of struggling EO churches near larger ones and it seems cruel to demand that they pull up roots).

JamesR said:
Why do you think that most of them are motivated by eschatology or racism and not just the fact that they feel more comfortable in the community that they happen to have been born or converted into?
I don’t. My question is not so much why the Oriental Orthodox are nationalistic as much as it is why they are so hypocritical about it. We Orthodox are the most nationalistic branch of Christianity in the world yet like I stated above, I’ve found that the Eastern Orthodox are at least honest about it whereas the Oriental Orthodox claim it does not exist and/or try to hide it. That would be understandable in and of itself, but when they are simultaneously criticizing the Eastern Orthodox for the same exact thing, calling every political establishment Babylon, accusing them of racism and white supremacy, and likening the use of flags to idolatry it strikes me as hypocritical. And no, I am not speaking of Gebre. He has criticized Haile Selassie before so he is at least consistent in his ideology. But there are others like Gebre who do all of these things despite sporting the Ethiopian flag and glorifying Emperor Selassie as if he were some sort of saint, claiming to be “woke” and supporting Black nationalism. And yeah, it usually comes from strange white guys in Bob Marley shirts.
I have a hard time believing that many of them (among the Ethiopians, let alone the five other OO Churches that your posts have strangely been ignoring this whole time) are really "claiming it doesn't exist." Sure that you're not conflating hypocrisy with recognizing that one is guilty of a sin yet still recognizing that it's a sin and trying to work past it? I'd rather see someone try to fight against their own hypernationalism, even when their efforts are imperfect, then just admit it and go about their day like nothing is wrong.

And if you see white LARPers as the major offenders here, why not just call them out instead of posting sweeping generalizations?
 

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JamesR said:
Every member of the Oriental Orthodox Church is some sort of Black nationalist or white guy infatuated with Rasta culture who will insist until they are blue in the face that there are no theological differences between them and the Eastern Orthodox, yet they still feel the need to worship at their own parish with other dark skinned people rather than the local Russian one down the street. This is especially evident when you see them waving Ethiopian flags and glorifying Haile Selassie while simultaneously criticizing the Eastern Orthodox and especially Russia for aligning itself so closely with the state. How can you criticize phyletism, nationalism, and putting one’s faith in princes and sons of man when your entire faith is predicated upon some sort of eschatological view of Ethiopia and Rasta culture?
Maybe because that person believes Chalcedon to be incorrect?

And you ought to read some 19th century Russian prophecy or 20th century Greek prophecy.

Keep in mind that patriotism is not something to be scorned at.

And keep in mind Protestantism was the same way 19th century and before (America being a city on a hill) as is Mormonism as was 19th century Roman Catholicism and before.
 

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JamesR said:
Every member of the Oriental Orthodox Church is some sort of Black nationalist or white guy infatuated with Rasta culture who will insist until they are blue in the face that there are no theological differences between them and the Eastern Orthodox, yet they still feel the need to worship at their own parish with other dark skinned people rather than the local Russian one down the street.
TBF, I know some Indian Orthodox people who worship weekly in a Greek church. And one of them is a priest.

They don't commune, but they attend and actively participate.
 

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JamesR said:
Every member of the Oriental Orthodox Church is some sort of Black nationalist or white guy infatuated with Rasta culture
This certainly doesn't apply to the Armenian, Malankara, or Syriac churches. It has to be an overgeneralization even if some people in the Ethiopian OO Church were.
 

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I like how OP delivered a reasonable and understandable argument supported by facts and not at all influenced by bias and instability.
 

Volnutt

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LivenotoneviL said:
Keep in mind that patriotism is not something to be scorned at.
Debatable.

LivenotoneviL said:
And keep in mind Protestantism was the same way 19th century and before (America being a city on a hill) as is Mormonism as was 19th century Roman Catholicism and before.
And today, really.
 

Mor Ephrem

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JamesR said:
Every member of the Oriental Orthodox Church is some sort of Black nationalist or white guy infatuated with Rasta culture who will insist until they are blue in the face that there are no theological differences between them and the Eastern Orthodox, yet they still feel the need to worship at their own parish with other dark skinned people rather than the local Russian one down the street. This is especially evident when you see them waving Ethiopian flags and glorifying Haile Selassie while simultaneously criticizing the Eastern Orthodox and especially Russia for aligning itself so closely with the state. How can you criticize phyletism, nationalism, and putting one’s faith in princes and sons of man when your entire faith is predicated upon some sort of eschatological view of Ethiopia and Rasta culture?
Phyletism:



Catholic unity in diversity:

 

Volnutt

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Nice! I'll have to remember that.
 

Antonis

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Mor Ephrem said:
JamesR said:
Every member of the Oriental Orthodox Church is some sort of Black nationalist or white guy infatuated with Rasta culture who will insist until they are blue in the face that there are no theological differences between them and the Eastern Orthodox, yet they still feel the need to worship at their own parish with other dark skinned people rather than the local Russian one down the street. This is especially evident when you see them waving Ethiopian flags and glorifying Haile Selassie while simultaneously criticizing the Eastern Orthodox and especially Russia for aligning itself so closely with the state. How can you criticize phyletism, nationalism, and putting one’s faith in princes and sons of man when your entire faith is predicated upon some sort of eschatological view of Ethiopia and Rasta culture?
Phyletism:



Catholic unity in diversity:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHra5pWlyuI
 

Volnutt

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Ooof, Pat. Illyia is not looking well.
 

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RaphaCam said:
Volnutt said:
Ooof, Pat. Illyia is not looking well.
He doesn't look that bad for someone with all that age. I imagine he handles with a lot of stress, too.
The idiom would be either "handles a lot of stress" (a stretch) or "deals with a lot of stress" (what you were probably aiming at). Just mentioning it because your English is generally extraordinarily good.
 

Volnutt

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RaphaCam said:
Volnutt said:
Ooof, Pat. Illyia is not looking well.
He doesn't look that bad for someone with all that age. I imagine he handles with a lot of stress, too.
I was mostly talking about his tremor. But yeah, could be worse.
 

RaphaCam

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Porter ODoran said:
RaphaCam said:
Volnutt said:
Ooof, Pat. Illyia is not looking well.
He doesn't look that bad for someone with all that age. I imagine he handles with a lot of stress, too.
The idiom would be either "handles a lot of stress" (a stretch) or "deals with a lot of stress" (what you were probably aiming at). Just mentioning it because your English is generally extraordinarily good.
Thanks! I appreciate this kind of remark, BTW, one can never accomplish any language, specially one as vast as English, but ESL courses aren't worth it anymore, so practice is really the only way I still advance.
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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JamesR said:
It is nice to hear from you again. You were one of my favorite posters. We should exchange emails sometime.

Volnutt said:
Well, tbf, James is at least half-Mexican. But I think it is fine to ask why he expects others to leave their Church homes for Russian ones before him taking the first initiative and joining an Ethiopian Church.
Well for starters, because I am not the one claiming that the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox are entirely the same despite being out of communion with each other. I am not saying that we are different either or that the are heretics - I am simply not qualified enough to answer. Only that for those of us who do claim that we are the same, usually the Oriental Orthodox, it strikes me as very hypocritical or at least inconsistent with their logic to attend a struggling Ethiopian parish with hardly any members rather than merge with the larger Greek or Russian parish down the street. I would say the same thing if the tables were reversed only I’ve found that the Greeks and Russians are at least honest enough to admit that their reluctance is the result of nationalism whereas the Oriental Orthodox claim to somehow be above that.

Why do you think that most of them are motivated by eschatology or racism and not just the fact that they feel more comfortable in the community that they happen to have been born or converted into?
I don’t. My question is not so much why the Oriental Orthodox are nationalistic as much as it is why they are so hypocritical about it. We Orthodox are the most nationalistic branch of Christianity in the world yet like I stated above, I’ve found that the Eastern Orthodox are at least honest about it whereas the Oriental Orthodox claim it does not exist and/or try to hide it. That would be understandable in and of itself, but when they are simultaneously criticizing the Eastern Orthodox for the same exact thing, calling every political establishment Babylon, accusing them of racism and white supremacy, and likening the use of flags to idolatry it strikes me as hypocritical. And no, I am not speaking of Gebre. He has criticized Haile Selassie before so he is at least consistent in his ideology. But there are others like Gebre who do all of these things despite sporting the Ethiopian flag and glorifying Emperor Selassie as if he were some sort of saint, claiming to be “woke” and supporting Black nationalism. And yeah, it usually comes from strange white guys in Bob Marley shirts.
I'm happy to know you aren't talking about me.  :)

Selam
 
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