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Why I remain an Evangelical

David Young

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I have taken part in this forum for no small time and have pondered the more thoughtful and cogent arguments y'all have put forward for becoming Orthodox - and yet I remain Evangelical! Why? There are two Scriptures which encapsulate my reason: Acts 11:22-3, "...they sent Barnabas to Antioch. When he came and saw the grace of God, he was glad"; and Galatians 2:9, "they perceived the grace that was given to me." Over the past 55 years or so I have read much Protestant and Evangelical history, and many biographies and autobiographies, and there I believe I "see" or "perceive" the grace of God: prisoners for the faith sustained; drunkards reformed; wife-beaters made loving husbands and fathers; drug addicts reclaimed; adulterers, thieves, and criminals finding a sense of forgiveness and changed lives; atheists finding faith; and all of them, as a result, giving thanks and glory to God the Father and Jesus Christ as Son of God and Saviour, believing this new life to be given by the Holy Spirit. Sometimes this happens in isolated individuals, sometimes, at times of God's appointing, to multitudes together at times of visitation. And so, in the words of another scripture, my response is, "Your people shall be my people, and your God my God."

Please note : I am saying that I see the grace of God in Evangelical churches; I am not saying it is absent from your churches, and indeed reading some Orthodox literature, not least Jim Forest's "The Resurrection of the Church in Albania", I believe I have seen it there too: but that is another matter.
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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I can understand that. I'm not interested in converting anyone to Orthodoxy anymore. I'll defend the Faith the best I can and leave the rest to God. I am becoming increasingly ecumenical the older I get.

I will point out something from my own experiences however: During my 20 years as an Evangelical, I encountered many churches where I did not see or experience the grace of God. However, I know the grace of God is present and active in every Orthodox Church, simply because regardless of the faith (or lack thereof) of the clergy and the people, the Sacraments remain unaltered and always efficacious. I can attend any Orthodox liturgy anywhere in the world, and I know that the Body and Blood of Christ will be offered to me. With Protestant churches, I never know what I will experience or encounter. So, that's just one reason why I am Orthodox.  :)

Selam
 

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If you are friends with Protestants/Evangelicals and if you read more books of biographies and autobiographies of Protestants/Evangelicals, naturally you will get the impression that grace acts especailly in Evangelical churches. And anyway if you live in a country where there are 100 times more evangelicals than orthodox believers - you will find more such stories. And therefore there is of course more literature and videos about evangelicals who found/find Christ than orthodox.

In traditional orthodox countries people have/had not the habit to open up their personal life and to tell publicly how they found Christ and with him happiness and so on. Two reasons why:
1.: If the whole country (before the communist regime) is well-disposed to God/Church there is not such a need for that. The live of the saints was satisfying. But things are changing, so there is recently a new TV show in Russia, where people from different backgrounds and religions speak openly how the found Christ. Especially in America, you will found more and more testimonies of people/atheists/prisoners/drug addicts and so on who find healing in Christ through the orthodox church: http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/ ; Orthodox Prison Ministry : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0p4sIKZJXo ; and so on , and so on...

2.: And on the orther hand, there is spiritual danger if you open your life up, you become the centre of attention. And it can fill you up with pride - although you are telling yourself and others you do it for the "Glory of God". A friend of mine, Klaus Kenneth, he wrote a book "Born to hate reborn to love", how he found Christ (in a non-orthodox church) after being 7 years a hindu in India, three years a buddhist monk in Tailand, a magician in central america, and so on. At the end he became orthodox after he met father Sophrony (Sakharov), whom he describes as the most perfect man, as the most perfect model of Christ*** he has ever seen in his life. And interestingly, father Sophrony didn't give Klaus the blessing to publish his book. Just after leading 15/20 years a Christian life he got the blessing to publish his book and afterwards also to give talks in the public. And Klaus told me, that he was very glad, that he was obedient to his spiritual father and that he waited for so long for the release, because if he did it in the very beginning, pride would swallow him up. And Klaus also told me, that he saw that many protestant pastors, who were famous, they were proud.


If a unbelieving sinner turns humbly and sincerely to Christ - he will find in the very beginning healing, peace and so - no matter if he has evangelical, orthodox or catholic background. But to stay in a authentic and healthy relationship with Christ is (very) difficult, but this is the main task. And here, you will see the differences in the different christian denominations. In the orthodox church we see and count not primarily the people who found Christ (conversion stories), but who endured to the end and even more, who got a high level of perfection (saints). I've seen to many former evangelical believers who spoke so enthusiastically about Christ, but now they are non-believing/agnostic or in a state of great spiritual delusion. And of course you can find such examples also in the orthodox church. The point here is: We or especially evangelicals shouldn't focus how many people converted to Christ, but how many stayed with Christ (in healthy relationship) till the end of their life and who found also perfection in Christ (saints).

Evangelicals are generally more emotional and they speak more often and enthusiastic about they relationship with Christ. Orthodox believers are concerning that matter more self-critical and they hide also more their loving relationship with Christ. There's another mentality (a special mentality of humility) in orthodox christians and therefore you may have the wrong conclusion that they don't have such a close relationship with Christ like Evangelicals have and therefore you may have the impression that grace is acting more in the life of protestants/evangelicals.

*** Years ago I opened here a thread about the main reason why I'm orthodox. The main argument was - and I still have this impression - that the most perfect christians you can find in the orthodox church. Of course there are many evangelicals, catholics and so on who are much more virtuous than orthodox christians (like me), but if you or if I compare the different (auto-)biographies of saints or virtuous christians in the different denominations, for me the most perfect and beautiful "fruits" are from the orthodox church. Also because of my personal encounters with orthodox saints.
But that doesn't mean that I doesn't admire or doesn't have deep respect for other saintly persons in the catholic or evangelical/protestant church.
 

123abc

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David Young said:
I have taken part in this forum for no small time and have pondered the more thoughtful and cogent arguments y'all have put forward for becoming Orthodox - and yet I remain Evangelical! Why? There are two Scriptures which encapsulate my reason: Acts 11:22-3, "...they sent Barnabas to Antioch. When he came and saw the grace of God, he was glad"; and Galatians 2:9, "they perceived the grace that was given to me." Over the past 55 years or so I have read much Protestant and Evangelical history, and many biographies and autobiographies, and there I believe I "see" or "perceive" the grace of God: prisoners for the faith sustained; drunkards reformed; wife-beaters made loving husbands and fathers; drug addicts reclaimed; adulterers, thieves, and criminals finding a sense of forgiveness and changed lives; atheists finding faith; and all of them, as a result, giving thanks and glory to God the Father and Jesus Christ as Son of God and Saviour, believing this new life to be given by the Holy Spirit. Sometimes this happens in isolated individuals, sometimes, at times of God's appointing, to multitudes together at times of visitation. And so, in the words of another scripture, my response is, "Your people shall be my people, and your God my God."
I'm not sure that using modified behaviour is the best epistemological measuring rod when it comes to making a decision regarding which religion, broadly speaking, is the correct one. I'm willing to guarantee that you will find reformed sinners in every religion under Heaven. I'm sure there are Buddhists, Muslims, Mormons etc. who chalk up their reformed lives to the power of Allah, psychotherapy, (insert higher power).

While I have no doubt over the genuine change of life among many Protestants (I've known them myself) the fact is that the Orthodox Church has been doing this for almost 2000 years and has libraries of books detailing the power of Christ in the lives of Her saints. So while I believe that the Spirit "blows where He will" that the question is always one of the fullness of Truth.
 

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Just as anyone of us here are willing to help any human being regardless of Creed, so does our Heavenly Father send grace even when they are not in the Church.  This is especially true of Evangelicals, where grace is given that they be eventually lead in the Church.  I can imagine when Peter also saw the grace of God working on the Centurion, that did not stop him from baptizing him into the Church.  The Antiochians and St. Paul are no exception to this rule, which was taken for granted in the first century.

You cannot ignore the parts of the New Testament which mandates baptism and the Eucharist.  Imagine those who do have grace in isolated areas are ignored by us for not offering entry into the Church and partaking of the Eucharist.  Unless you eat Christ, you have no life in you, and shame on us for not offering this divine life.  And shame on them for not wanting to receive it if offered.
 

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My friend. Jesus died so that people can become immortal and you take people from Holy Liturgy of Eastern orthodox Church and immortality and keep them mortal again. In my opinion you bring death and God is very upset on you.

Not drinking and changing life was available before Jesus . Having a good family was available before Jesus.

Its OK if you don't know what path to travel to. This is why you have prayers so God will give you an easy succesful path to make transition to immortality and to EAstern Orthodox Church the perfect Church established by perfect God.
 

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God told me to tell you that you will see the wrath of God if you don't come to the right path. He said if I don't tell you that I am [part of your sin. Don't keep people without immortality.

Pray so that you can come to the right path in an easy succesfull way, to Eastern orthodox Church.
 

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pasadi97 said:
God told me to tell you that you will see the wrath of God if you don't come to the right path. He said if I don't tell you that I am [part of your sin. Don't keep people without immortality.

Pray so that you can come to the right path in an easy succesfull way, to Eastern orthodox Church.
This makes me sad. I highly doubt that God speaks to you directly. And if he really does, than a spiritual and humble person never says that God spoke to him..
 

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Nathanael said:
pasadi97 said:
God told me to tell you that you will see the wrath of God if you don't come to the right path. He said if I don't tell you that I am [part of your sin. Don't keep people without immortality.

Pray so that you can come to the right path in an easy succesfull way, to Eastern orthodox Church.
This makes me sad. I highly doubt that God speaks to you directly. And if he really does, than a spiritual and humble person never says that God spoke to him..
“Thus saith the Lord...”
 

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Nathanael said:
pasadi97 said:
God told me to tell you that you will see the wrath of God if you don't come to the right path. He said if I don't tell you that I am [part of your sin. Don't keep people without immortality.

Pray so that you can come to the right path in an easy succesfull way, to Eastern orthodox Church.
This makes me sad. I highly doubt that God speaks to you directly. And if he really does, than a spiritual and humble person never says that God spoke to him..
Why not?

 

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pasadi97 said:
My friend. Jesus died so that people can become immortal and you take people from Holy Liturgy of Eastern orthodox Church and immortality and keep them mortal again. In my opinion you bring death and God is very upset on you.

Not drinking and changing life was available before Jesus . Having a good family was available before Jesus.

Its OK if you don't know what path to travel to. This is why you have prayers so God will give you an easy succesful path to make transition to immortality and to EAstern Orthodox Church the perfect Church established by perfect God.
That's correct. There are many people who without religion have attained even high levels of morality than Christians. That shouldn't be the only metric for being reborn.
 

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Jesus gave immortality to you through Holy Liturgy. He suffered and died so YOU can have IMMORTALITY.
You said in my opinion I reject immortality from Jesus and I call on others to reject it and remain mortal that may amount to group suicides in my opinion because some people stopped drinking as evangelicals.What?  In my opinion moving from ETERNAL LIFE through Holy Communion in Eastern Orthodox Church to not having life in you John 6:53-54 can amount to suicide.

There is no reason on or under the Earth to REJECT immortality.
 

pasadi97

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"Why I remain evagelical it may mean I reject IMMORTALITY from Jesus remai mortal"

This is in my opinion the correct title for the thread Why I remain Evangelical. In MY opinion Evangelicals rejected Holy Liturgies wrote by apostles that gave Holy Communion that contain blood and flesh of Jesus that bring immortality John 6:53-54.  That may amount to suicide in a way in my opinion, rejecting immortality and remaining mortal.

In my opinion if renouncing immortality is not a death song or a suicide song or a song of Piped Pier I don't know what it is?

Topics Merged,
Agabus
 

LivenotoneviL

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"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed."
 

pasadi97

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LivenotoneviL said:
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed."
John 6:53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Can you say I believe in Jesus BUT I remain evangelical WITHOUT blood and flesh of Jesus in my opinion and I will become immortal?

Jesus to evangelicals:
unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you

Evangelicals to Jesus
We don't have flesh and blood of Jesus in my opinion but are not concerned because some men stopped drinking. What? Or in my opinion if you come to our church you may say GOODBYE to immortality BUT you will stop drinking. Why can people not stop drinking and become immortal on the same time. Why do they have to say Bye Bye to immortality when as Eastern orthodox they get both.

Possibly if Evangelicals would have faith in Jesus they would say:
We go to Eastern Orthodox Church get blood and flesh of Jesus and become immortals .
 

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What is so special with John Smith or other Smith that founded a Church without flesh and blood of Jesus that people can not depart from his Church.
WEhy is Smith more special than Jesus that founded EasterN orthodox Church in year around 33 putting in his Church all that GOD deemed necessary. Why is Smith better than GOD why is his Church better than Gods Church?
https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/1374947_10155287894085779_235777479993189575_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&_nc_eui2=v1%3AAeEJRzDhON1Z_EN26dD2sTRdVNcAj9pr4Mya7DKWcDMAx_o1iN3Sp1wca7y3eU50g3INAmyiAs9LQGn8IKtddnFNdrTfZrwHBZd8CwLfQYuNxg&oh=be210fd21e4bd9c03a5da5d962f0170d&oe=5B357473
 

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pasadi97 said:
God told me to tell you that you will see the wrath of God if you don't come to the right path. He said if I don't tell you that I am [part of your sin. Don't keep people without immortality.

Pray so that you can come to the right path in an easy succesfull way, to Eastern orthodox Church.
While the Fathers may tell you to question when you think God has spoken to you because you may be suffering from delusions, the moderators tell you that you need to keep such polemics to the unmoderated forums.

One love,
Agabus, section moderator.
 

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My point of my post is not indifferentism, but rather that each person has free will to follow or reject Christ, to which they will be judged.
 

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I'm afraid this reminded me of Matt. 7:21-23:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
I bring this up not because I think you are destined for hell or want to sound harsh, but rather I'm thinking about the part of it that says even doing even amazing feats is not proof of doing the will of God. Changing your life for the better is a good thing, whatever the cause--Protestant missionaries, court-ordered community service, ancient Chinese wisdom™--but that doesn't make it the Gospel truth. I mean, I understand the thought process and the pull behind what you're saying. Yet members of just about every philosophy and religion could say the same, and as an Evangelical you would presumably tell non-Christians that you have "good news" for them: there is something better out there...
 

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Asteriktos said:
...members of just about every philosophy and religion could say the same, and as an Evangelical you would presumably tell non-Christians that you have "good news" for them:
True; but this widens the debate from what 'brand' of Christian one chooses to be, to what religion or philosophy at all one should adopt. Only Jesus Christ has left an empty tomb and risen bodily from the dead to glorified, immortal life. So no other philosophy or religion has the appeal of Christianity. I think we agree on this.
 

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Nathanael said:
The point here is: We or especially evangelicals shouldn't focus how many people converted to Christ, but how many stayed with Christ (in healthy relationship) till the end of their life and who found also perfection in Christ (saints).
If I might replace the word "perfection" with the word "saintliness" or "godliness" or "Christlikeness", I agree that this is the one thing needful. However, apart from reading biographies, I cannot know who will "endure to the end", as our Lord put it. And yes, to our sadness, many profess faith and fall away, making shipwreck of their faith, but our Lord's parables tell us that this will happen.
 

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123abc said:
I'm not sure that using modified behaviour is the best epistemological measuring rod
In one sense you are right, for I doubt that epistemological method embraces the divine. However, if the Scripture states that a person who believes in Christ is a new creature or creation, that old things have passed away from his life, then what should one look at, not for entry into the Faith, but for confirmation of it? If evangelical religion has achieved that many times over the past 500 years, among academics and illiterate labourers, jungle dwellers and city dweller, every branch of humanity and every age group - and I believe it has - then I think I have cogent reason to remain (which is what my thread says: it doesn't say "become").

You might say that the Orthodox Church has done it for 2000 years: but I have not written that you should not remain in that fold.
 

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I'm not sure that using modified behaviour is the best epistemological measuring rod when it comes to making a decision regarding which religion, broadly speaking, is the correct one. I'm willing to guarantee that you will find reformed sinners in every religion under Heaven. I'm sure there are Buddhists, Muslims, Mormons etc. who chalk up their reformed lives to the power of Allah, psychotherapy, (insert higher power).
That is what i was thinking, probably it isn't difficult to find some testimonies on youtube about how false religions made someone a better person, this however is not due to their false religion, rather it is the general grace given to all people working inside folks who desire to better themselves.
 

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So far This thread would remain substantially the same if it were also titled  why I remain Mormon. 

 

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LivenotoneviL said:
My point of my post is not indifferentism, but rather that each person has free will to follow or reject Christ, to which they will be judged.
Exactly. There is no problem with everyone choosing what he wants.

But if you make smoke and confusion in people heads and because of the smoke and confusion they choose the wrong path then this may be a sin and God may get angry. You may have to do the reverse for more people to take confusion out and make things clear so THEY choose based on REAL adn IMPORTANT information. Then God will be happy with you again.

And you will be happy. because what you do comes back to you. You give immortality you GET immortality.
 

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Vanhyo said:
...how false religions made someone a better person,... it is the general grace given to all people working inside folks who desire to better themselves.
Common grace: yes, I'll go with that. But I said in my opening post, not only that there is a consistent testimony of transformed lives in many place and centuries, but also that the glory and power are ascribed to Jesus Christ, as God's Son and our Saviour, not to one's own efforts at self-improvement. I remain an Evangelical not only because, when as a Faith it is believed and practised sincerely (for all religions including ours have hypocrites and apostates) it produces permanently transformed lives, but also because it inspires worship of Christ as the one by whose grace and power alone the inward work is wrought. I also mentioned the sense of divine forgiveness which people experience ("pardon for sins of deepest dye" as the hymn puts it). I certainly never mentioned giving up drinking, which one of you referred to more than once (I seem to recall), which practice spread only from about the 1830s and is widely passing away nowadays (though not, perhaps, among American Evangelicals).
 

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David Young said:
I have taken part in this forum for no small time and have pondered the more thoughtful and cogent arguments y'all have put forward for becoming Orthodox - and yet I remain Evangelical! Why? There are two Scriptures which encapsulate my reason: Acts 11:22-3, "...they sent Barnabas to Antioch. When he came and saw the grace of God, he was glad"; and Galatians 2:9, "they perceived the grace that was given to me."
Notice that this grace was around over a thousand years before Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli.
 

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So be Evangelical?  I'm sure you're not looking for permission, so what are you looking for?  :-\
No one but God can make you change your mind, and He won't force you into it.
 

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I could never accept Protestantism in any of its myriad forms; in bondage to history am I and I cannot abide by its rejection. Much ado is made by certain Protestant strains of the corruption done to the Bible by the "Catholic Church" when it is the Reformers and their ilk who misappropriated their own inheritance, seizing the Scriptures and divorcing them from the living traditions which bound and propagated them. It is well to heed the words of the Lord, that "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

A dreadful thing, Protestantism. Better that they had cloven to popery.
 

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Ainnir said:
what are you looking for?  ...No one but God can make you change your mind,
I joined the forum "looking for" an improvement in understanding between Orthodox and Evangelical, about what each 'side' believes and why, not for one side to convert the other. I have encountered ungracious bigotry and also welcome and acceptance from Orthodox, and maybe you have encountered the same from some of us. The former is not seemly: so I am looking for better understanding, and for concomitant Christian courtesy on both sides - which does not require compromise on what beliefs each holds dear.
 

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David Young said:
Vanhyo said:
...how false religions made someone a better person,... it is the general grace given to all people working inside folks who desire to better themselves.
Common grace: yes, I'll go with that. But I said in my opening post, not only that there is a consistent testimony of transformed lives in many place and centuries, but also that the glory and power are ascribed to Jesus Christ, as God's Son and our Saviour, not to one's own efforts at self-improvement. I remain an Evangelical not only because, when as a Faith it is believed and practised sincerely (for all religions including ours have hypocrites and apostates) it produces permanently transformed lives, but also because it inspires worship of Christ as the one by whose grace and power alone the inward work is wrought. I also mentioned the sense of divine forgiveness which people experience ("pardon for sins of deepest dye" as the hymn puts it). I certainly never mentioned giving up drinking, which one of you referred to more than once (I seem to recall), which practice spread only from about the 1830s and is widely passing away nowadays (though not, perhaps, among American Evangelicals).
Even somebody who ascribes their changed life to positive thinking has really been changed by Christ (assuming that they've gone through real change). God can change and help anybody He wants to even if they don't know Him, but that doesn't necessarily mean that He validates their religion where they are, does it? He could be calling and preparing all those Evangelicals to eventually come to His Church.

The question of whether or not to become Orthodox for me is not necessarily one of what happens to the non-Orthodox Christian, but one of "What do I need to do to obey God?"
 

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This is a silly thread. Mr. Young should start a thread in the Evangelical forums.  Tell them I decided to stay. They would tell him. Thank god you did. Or else you would be going to hell.
 

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Tzimis said:
This is a silly thread. Mr. Young should start a thread in the Evangelical forums.  Tell them I decided to stay. They would tell him. Thank god you did. Or else you would be going to hell.
Not necessarily. The ones outside the loud-on-the-internet "Pulpit and Pen" crowd are usually pretty eager to say that Catholics and Orthodox are true Christians. They would probably just congratulate him on avoiding an overly narrow theology.


I don't find this thread useless fwiw. The grace that God shows others is a good thing to wrestle with, for humility's sake at the very least.
 

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Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
This is a silly thread. Mr. Young should start a thread in the Evangelical forums.  Tell them I decided to stay. They would tell him. Thank god you did. Or else you would be going to hell.
Not necessarily. The ones outside the loud-on-the-internet "Pulpit and Pen" crowd are usually pretty eager to say that Catholics and Orthodox are true Christians. They would probably just congratulate him on avoiding an overly narrow theology.


I don't find this thread useless fwiw. The grace that God shows others is a good thing to wrestle with, for humility's sake at the very least.
Overly narrow theology? Your going to have to give a little more details.
 

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Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
This is a silly thread. Mr. Young should start a thread in the Evangelical forums.  Tell them I decided to stay. They would tell him. Thank god you did. Or else you would be going to hell.
Not necessarily. The ones outside the loud-on-the-internet "Pulpit and Pen" crowd are usually pretty eager to say that Catholics and Orthodox are true Christians. They would probably just congratulate him on avoiding an overly narrow theology.


I don't find this thread useless fwiw. The grace that God shows others is a good thing to wrestle with, for humility's sake at the very least.
Overly narrow theology? Your going to have to give a little more details.
There's a view within Protestantism, that I've held myself at various times in the past, that Catholics and Orthodox are saved to the extent they have a "personal relationship with Jesus" but that they are deserving of pity because of the allegedly legalism they've bound themselves to (not least of all the legalism of thinking that non-Catholics or non-Orthodox are not truly Christian).

I remember discussing with my Mom, a long time ago (before it came out what a creep he is), Mel Gibson's comment about his wife:

There is no salvation for those outside the Church ... I believe it. Put it this way. My wife is a saint. She's a much better person than I am. Honestly. She's... Episcopalian, Church of England. She prays, she believes in God, she knows Jesus, she believes in that stuff. And it's just not fair if she doesn't make it, she's better than I am. But that is a pronouncement from the chair. I go with it.
We were mostly just sad and astonished that anybody could live that way, but I don't think it entered into either of our minds that he might not be Christian because of it.
 

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No orthodox christians that I know would condemn anyone that is outside the church. We say that we know where christ is, we dont know where he is not.
If you are contented where you are. No reason to go anywhere.
 

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Tzimis said:
No orthodox christians that I know would condemn anyone that is outside the church. We say that we know where christ is, we dont know where he is not.
If you are contented where you are. No reason to go anywhere.
I've only ever seen sentiments like that couched in a "maybe/hopefully/we don't know" and I've never seen an Orthodox source tell Protestants that there's no need to convert to Orthodoxy.

But yes, I agree that the outlook from the mainstream Orthodox side is sunnier than from the Trad Catholic perspective. Sorry to imply otherwise.


EDIT- Like I said, these days I think it's more useful in general to frame things in terms of what God wants me to do out of obedience and love for Him rather than "What will definitely keep me out of Hell?"
 

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Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
No orthodox christians that I know would condemn anyone that is outside the church. We say that we know where christ is, we dont know where he is not.
If you are contented where you are. No reason to go anywhere.
I've only ever seen sentiments like that couched in a "maybe/hopefully/we don't know" and I've never seen an Orthodox source tell Protestants that there's no need to convert to Orthodoxy.

But yes, I agree that the outlook from the mainstream Orthodox side is sunnier than from the Trad Catholic perspective. Sorry to imply otherwise.


EDIT- Like I said, these days I think it's more useful in general to frame things in terms of what God wants me to do out of obedience and love for Him rather than "What will definitely keep me out of Hell?"
Thats a bit of twisting my words. No one is forced or pleaded into a conversion. Usually those people are drawn to the church because they have seen it for what it is and want to be a part of it. The church is bigger than them. Someone who is looking for pleading is full of vanity.
 

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David Young said:
I have taken part in this forum for no small time and have pondered the more thoughtful and cogent arguments y'all have put forward for becoming Orthodox - and yet I remain Evangelical!
Did you pick this up from the US South, or is it a way they talk where you are from? Evangelicals' Stronghold is the US South.
Why? There are two Scriptures which encapsulate my reason: Acts 11:22-3, "...they sent Barnabas to Antioch. When he came and saw the grace of God, he was glad"; and Galatians 2:9, "they perceived the grace that was given to me." Over the past 55 years or so I have read much Protestant and Evangelical history, and many biographies and autobiographies, and there I believe I "see" or "perceive" the grace of God: prisoners for the faith sustained; drunkards reformed; wife-beaters made loving husbands and fathers; drug addicts reclaimed; adulterers, thieves, and criminals finding a sense of forgiveness and changed lives; atheists finding faith; and all of them, as a result, giving thanks and glory to God the Father and Jesus Christ as Son of God and Saviour, believing this new life to be given by the Holy Spirit.
It seems like attributes that can be ascribed to Christian churches in general. Orthodox are not many in the US, but the Catholics have major charities and social work. I have assisted at some Catholic charities.
 
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