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Why I remain an Evangelical

David Young

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Ainnir said:
David Young said:
This is a remarkably Baptistic thing to say. Did you get it from one of our confessions of faith?!
I hope this is nothing but genuine surprise.
It was written 'tongue in cheek' (or rather, keyboard in cheek, as it were). The description of the ministry is exactly what we say, especially the part about the man being chosen by the church (by which we mean the local church, i.e. body of believers).
 

David Young

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minasoliman said:
...disagreement between the both of us, which is how we should view the Eucharist and the word "literal". ...  We can't just be "one Church" if we disagree on something so vital in our faith.
Not one visible church, so to speak. I have not attempted to take Communion in an Orthodox church, for I know I would not be permitted to anyway, and it is (according to 1 Corinthians) because we eat one bread that we are one body. So yes, to be one church here on earth, in one locality, we must take the holy housel together. But anent "the invisible church", I believe God sees all his children as members of the one true, saved, blood-washed company of believers, the church. We cannot see that unity now displayed on earth, but it will be apparent who were real members at the marriage supper of the Lamb, and for eternity the bride of Christ will be united.

Personally I do not think people have to share the same dogmatic understanding of the Eucharist in order to break bread together in remembrance of the Lord. Probably most people with whom I take Communion would hold the Zwinglian view, which seems to have become the default view among Baptists, Methodists, Brethren, Pentecostals, &c.. I dare say my view would be seen as that taught by John Calvin (which does not mean I share his soteriology). Your view is further along the spectrum still. But I do not believe that it is correct dogmatic understanding that qualifies a person to partake, but rather repentance for sins, a belief that Christ died the remission for those sins, and the wish to obey him in remembering his death for us when we take the bread and the wine.

Have you considered reading some works by Fr. Alexander Schmemann?
I have certainly heard of him, but I am not sure whether I have read any of his writings. Devotional writings might well feed my soul; on doctrinal matters, as you may have discerned, I am fairly settled.
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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David Young said:
...on doctrinal matters, as you may have discerned, I am fairly settled.
God has a way of unsettling the settled. Carrying our crosses and following Christ rarely lead to worldly security and temporal safety. And that goes for us Orthodox as well.  ;)

Selam
 

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Iconodule said:
Here is a really interesting article by Fr Maximos Constas discussing the relationship between the suspicion of images and imagination in the hesychast tradition and the image-rich ritual of Byzantine worship.
Thank you so much for this article, fascinating.
 

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Volnutt said:
augustin717 said:
I think It drives some orthodox to dispair when every now and then an individual fails to be totally impressed by pretty Byzantine rituals .
Yeah, probably lol.
Because for many the aesthetic argument is the strongest case they can make.
 

Arachne

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Justin Kolodziej said:
I understand that there is a very limited number of Orthodox in the UK, period.
Latest numbers put us at 440,000.
 

Ainnir

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David Young said:
Devotional writings might well feed my soul; on doctrinal matters, as you may have discerned, I am fairly settled.
Upthread you said you wanted to learn and understand, but you will never understand Orthodoxy if you insist on seeing it through an Evangelical lens, refusing to at least mentally set aside your framework to learn ours.  In my experience, at least, they aren't anything like similar enough to use each other's lenses.
 

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Agabus said:
Volnutt said:
augustin717 said:
I think It drives some orthodox to dispair when every now and then an individual fails to be totally impressed by pretty Byzantine rituals .
Yeah, probably lol.
Because for many the aesthetic argument is the strongest case they can make.
I've noticed.
 

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Volnutt said:
Agabus said:
Volnutt said:
augustin717 said:
I think It drives some orthodox to dispair when every now and then an individual fails to be totally impressed by pretty Byzantine rituals .
Yeah, probably lol.
Because for many the aesthetic argument is the strongest case they can make.
I've noticed.
Realizing that the Faith is simultaneously connected and disconnected with the Liturgy is something that was hard for me to accept for a while, and then I realized there's more to Faith than mere Liturgy.
However, that doesn't mean I'm immune to making Liturgy a bigger idol than God Himself.
 

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LivenotoneviL said:
Volnutt said:
Agabus said:
Volnutt said:
augustin717 said:
I think It drives some orthodox to dispair when every now and then an individual fails to be totally impressed by pretty Byzantine rituals .
Yeah, probably lol.
Because for many the aesthetic argument is the strongest case they can make.
I've noticed.
Realizing that the Faith is simultaneously connected and disconnected with the Liturgy is something that was hard for me to accept for a while, and then I realized there's more to Faith than mere Liturgy.
However, that doesn't mean I'm immune to making Liturgy a bigger idol than God Himself.
Aesthetic arguments aren't nothing. But they certainly aren't everything.
 

minasoliman

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David Young said:
minasoliman said:
...disagreement between the both of us, which is how we should view the Eucharist and the word "literal". ...  We can't just be "one Church" if we disagree on something so vital in our faith.
Not one visible church, so to speak. I have not attempted to take Communion in an Orthodox church, for I know I would not be permitted to anyway, and it is (according to 1 Corinthians) because we eat one bread that we are one body. So yes, to be one church here on earth, in one locality, we must take the holy housel together. But anent "the invisible church", I believe God sees all his children as members of the one true, saved, blood-washed company of believers, the church. We cannot see that unity now displayed on earth, but it will be apparent who were real members at the marriage supper of the Lamb, and for eternity the bride of Christ will be united.

Personally I do not think people have to share the same dogmatic understanding of the Eucharist in order to break bread together in remembrance of the Lord. Probably most people with whom I take Communion would hold the Zwinglian view, which seems to have become the default view among Baptists, Methodists, Brethren, Pentecostals, &c.. I dare say my view would be seen as that taught by John Calvin (which does not mean I share his soteriology). Your view is further along the spectrum still. But I do not believe that it is correct dogmatic understanding that qualifies a person to partake, but rather repentance for sins, a belief that Christ died the remission for those sins, and the wish to obey him in remembering his death for us when we take the bread and the wine.

Have you considered reading some works by Fr. Alexander Schmemann?
I have certainly heard of him, but I am not sure whether I have read any of his writings. Devotional writings might well feed my soul; on doctrinal matters, as you may have discerned, I am fairly settled.
Well, I don't want to drag along why I find the Eucharist of utmost importance in the Church, probably on a higher plain field that "mere" repentance of sins.  But suffice it to say that because the human nature of Christ does not end with Christ Himself, but continues with the Church, with the saints, and with the Eucharist, a denial, even partially in anyone of these is seen as a denial of His flesh, a form of monophysitism.  Similarly, when you read 1 Corinthians 15, it is implied the people believed in the Resurrection of Christ, but not in the Resurrection of themselves.  Well, if you deny the latter, you functionally deny the former as well.

Fr. Alexander Schmemann is a great spiritual read, very mystical.  I think you would enjoy him and have a greater appreciation as to why the sacramental life trumps even the mere words of Scripture in ancient Apostolic Christianity.

Another question for you:  what about theosis in your church?  Is this an important doctrine?
 

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minasoliman said:
David Young said:
minasoliman said:
...disagreement between the both of us, which is how we should view the Eucharist and the word "literal". ...  We can't just be "one Church" if we disagree on something so vital in our faith.
Not one visible church, so to speak. I have not attempted to take Communion in an Orthodox church, for I know I would not be permitted to anyway, and it is (according to 1 Corinthians) because we eat one bread that we are one body. So yes, to be one church here on earth, in one locality, we must take the holy housel together. But anent "the invisible church", I believe God sees all his children as members of the one true, saved, blood-washed company of believers, the church. We cannot see that unity now displayed on earth, but it will be apparent who were real members at the marriage supper of the Lamb, and for eternity the bride of Christ will be united.

Personally I do not think people have to share the same dogmatic understanding of the Eucharist in order to break bread together in remembrance of the Lord. Probably most people with whom I take Communion would hold the Zwinglian view, which seems to have become the default view among Baptists, Methodists, Brethren, Pentecostals, &c.. I dare say my view would be seen as that taught by John Calvin (which does not mean I share his soteriology). Your view is further along the spectrum still. But I do not believe that it is correct dogmatic understanding that qualifies a person to partake, but rather repentance for sins, a belief that Christ died the remission for those sins, and the wish to obey him in remembering his death for us when we take the bread and the wine.

Have you considered reading some works by Fr. Alexander Schmemann?
I have certainly heard of him, but I am not sure whether I have read any of his writings. Devotional writings might well feed my soul; on doctrinal matters, as you may have discerned, I am fairly settled.
Well, I don't want to drag along why I find the Eucharist of utmost importance in the Church, probably on a higher plain field that "mere" repentance of sins.  But suffice it to say that because the human nature of Christ does not end with Christ Himself, but continues with the Church, with the saints, and with the Eucharist, a denial, even partially in anyone of these is seen as a denial of His flesh, a form of monophysitism.  Similarly, when you read 1 Corinthians 15, it is implied the people believed in the Resurrection of Christ, but not in the Resurrection of themselves.  Well, if you deny the latter, you functionally deny the former as well.

Fr. Alexander Schmemann is a great spiritual read, very mystical.  I think you would enjoy him and have a greater appreciation as to why the sacramental life trumps even the mere words of Scripture in ancient Apostolic Christianity.

Another question for you:  what about theosis in your church?  Is this an important doctrine?
Well said Mina. This is exactly what they dont understand.  Probably never will.
The invisible church is a hope that others might be saved outside the church. They see it as a guarantee we see it as a possibility.  It isnt limited to protestants either.  Our view is that everybody outside of the sacriments may by the grace of god have an opportunity. God is very merciful , but the sure path is through the church.
 

David Young

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minasoliman said:
Another question for you:  what about theosis in your church?  Is this an important doctrine?
We don't use the word theosis, and I suspect our understanding of sanctification is different from yours. We certainly believe that any profession of repentance and faith, i.e. of conversion, will, if genuine, be followed by sanctification. Wesleyan theology believes in instantaneous entire sanctification, but that is unique to them (though not all carry the actual name "Wesleyan"). Most believe in a more gradual process whereby the believer becomes conformed to the image or character of Christ through cooperation with the indwelling Spirit of God. This is very important - but I sometimes get a suspicion that some American Baptists place a lot more emphasis, or credence, on an initial prayer of repentance and conversion, and are a good deal quicker to believe someone is saved (indeed, eternally secure) than we are here in Britain, where we look for progress in inward and outward holiness. "The faith that works by love" as Paul says in Galatians was a key text to understanding John Wesley's concept of true faith.
 

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but I sometimes get a suspicion that some American Baptists place a lot more emphasis, or credence, on an initial prayer of repentance and conversion, and are a good deal quicker to believe someone is saved (indeed, eternally secure) than we are here in Britain, where we look for progress in inward and outward holiness.
In south america is the same as well, a lot of emphasis in the altar call and sinners prayer, it is quite curious how a tradition that doesnt believe in sacraments, transformed the sinners prayer in some sort of sacrament that is the one that really matters in the end.
 

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juliogb said:
but I sometimes get a suspicion that some American Baptists place a lot more emphasis, or credence, on an initial prayer of repentance and conversion, and are a good deal quicker to believe someone is saved (indeed, eternally secure) than we are here in Britain, where we look for progress in inward and outward holiness.
In south america is the same as well, a lot of emphasis in the altar call and sinners prayer, it is quite curious how a tradition that doesnt believe in sacraments, transformed the sinners prayer in some sort of sacrament that is the one that really matters in the end.
Its a quicker route to the wallet for there leader and instant gratification for the parishioners.  Seems like a hollow ritual based on an emotional superficial expierience.
 

minasoliman

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David Young said:
minasoliman said:
Another question for you:  what about theosis in your church?  Is this an important doctrine?
We don't use the word theosis, and I suspect our understanding of sanctification is different from yours. We certainly believe that any profession of repentance and faith, i.e. of conversion, will, if genuine, be followed by sanctification. Wesleyan theology believes in instantaneous entire sanctification, but that is unique to them (though not all carry the actual name "Wesleyan"). Most believe in a more gradual process whereby the believer becomes conformed to the image or character of Christ through cooperation with the indwelling Spirit of God.
Well then of course it begs the question.  What does the “image or character of Christ” entail?  What happens when the Spirit indwells?  Do I partake of His nature?  What am I sanctified with?


This is very important - but I sometimes get a suspicion that some American Baptists place a lot more emphasis, or credence, on an initial prayer of repentance and conversion, and are a good deal quicker to believe someone is saved (indeed, eternally secure) than we are here in Britain, where we look for progress in inward and outward holiness. "The faith that works by love" as Paul says in Galatians was a key text to understanding John Wesley's concept of true faith.
Well then it sounds like this actually matters for you.  Do you think it makes a difference what one believes in this issue?
 

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Tzimis said:
juliogb said:
but I sometimes get a suspicion that some American Baptists place a lot more emphasis, or credence, on an initial prayer of repentance and conversion, and are a good deal quicker to believe someone is saved (indeed, eternally secure) than we are here in Britain, where we look for progress in inward and outward holiness.
In south america is the same as well, a lot of emphasis in the altar call and sinners prayer, it is quite curious how a tradition that doesnt believe in sacraments, transformed the sinners prayer in some sort of sacrament that is the one that really matters in the end.
Its a quicker route to the wallet for there leader and instant gratification for the parishioners.  Seems like a hollow ritual based on an emotional superficial expierience.
A somewhat cynical look, perhaps even one I would have agreed with in the past, but I think altogether unfair.

In my own background, people who walked the aisle were welcomed as genuinely repentant and were expected to start showing some measure of growth (even if by Orthodox standards those measures were not exactly stringent) before they took on any supporting roles. Milk before meat, you know. Preaching about giving was usually rare but directed to those who had been around and who should have known better. 
 

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Agabus said:
Tzimis said:
juliogb said:
but I sometimes get a suspicion that some American Baptists place a lot more emphasis, or credence, on an initial prayer of repentance and conversion, and are a good deal quicker to believe someone is saved (indeed, eternally secure) than we are here in Britain, where we look for progress in inward and outward holiness.
In south america is the same as well, a lot of emphasis in the altar call and sinners prayer, it is quite curious how a tradition that doesnt believe in sacraments, transformed the sinners prayer in some sort of sacrament that is the one that really matters in the end.
Its a quicker route to the wallet for there leader and instant gratification for the parishioners.  Seems like a hollow ritual based on an emotional superficial expierience.
A somewhat cynical look, perhaps even one I would have agreed with in the past, but I think altogether unfair.

In my own background, people who walked the aisle were welcomed as genuinely repentant and were expected to start showing some measure of growth (even if by Orthodox standards those measures were not exactly stringent) before they took on any supporting roles. Milk before meat, you know. Preaching about giving was usually rare but directed to those who had been around and who should have known better.
+1

Not to say that manipulation doesn't exist, especially in televangelist and megachurch contexts, but it's not fair to generalize so much.
 

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Volnutt said:
Agabus said:
Tzimis said:
juliogb said:
but I sometimes get a suspicion that some American Baptists place a lot more emphasis, or credence, on an initial prayer of repentance and conversion, and are a good deal quicker to believe someone is saved (indeed, eternally secure) than we are here in Britain, where we look for progress in inward and outward holiness.
In south america is the same as well, a lot of emphasis in the altar call and sinners prayer, it is quite curious how a tradition that doesnt believe in sacraments, transformed the sinners prayer in some sort of sacrament that is the one that really matters in the end.
Its a quicker route to the wallet for there leader and instant gratification for the parishioners.  Seems like a hollow ritual based on an emotional superficial expierience.
A somewhat cynical look, perhaps even one I would have agreed with in the past, but I think altogether unfair.

In my own background, people who walked the aisle were welcomed as genuinely repentant and were expected to start showing some measure of growth (even if by Orthodox standards those measures were not exactly stringent) before they took on any supporting roles. Milk before meat, you know. Preaching about giving was usually rare but directed to those who had been around and who should have known better.
+1

Not to say that manipulation doesn't exist, especially in televangelist and megachurch contexts, but it's not fair to generalize so much.
You wouldn't call this a mass deception of the public?
 

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Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
Agabus said:
Tzimis said:
juliogb said:
but I sometimes get a suspicion that some American Baptists place a lot more emphasis, or credence, on an initial prayer of repentance and conversion, and are a good deal quicker to believe someone is saved (indeed, eternally secure) than we are here in Britain, where we look for progress in inward and outward holiness.
In south america is the same as well, a lot of emphasis in the altar call and sinners prayer, it is quite curious how a tradition that doesnt believe in sacraments, transformed the sinners prayer in some sort of sacrament that is the one that really matters in the end.
Its a quicker route to the wallet for there leader and instant gratification for the parishioners.  Seems like a hollow ritual based on an emotional superficial expierience.
A somewhat cynical look, perhaps even one I would have agreed with in the past, but I think altogether unfair.

In my own background, people who walked the aisle were welcomed as genuinely repentant and were expected to start showing some measure of growth (even if by Orthodox standards those measures were not exactly stringent) before they took on any supporting roles. Milk before meat, you know. Preaching about giving was usually rare but directed to those who had been around and who should have known better.
+1

Not to say that manipulation doesn't exist, especially in televangelist and megachurch contexts, but it's not fair to generalize so much.
You wouldn't call this a mass deception of the public?
Televangelists and a lot of megachurches are very deceptive, yes. But I don't think it can therefore be generalized to say that all Protestant altar calls are therefore nothing but empty emotional manipulation.
 

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Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
Agabus said:
Tzimis said:
juliogb said:
but I sometimes get a suspicion that some American Baptists place a lot more emphasis, or credence, on an initial prayer of repentance and conversion, and are a good deal quicker to believe someone is saved (indeed, eternally secure) than we are here in Britain, where we look for progress in inward and outward holiness.
In south america is the same as well, a lot of emphasis in the altar call and sinners prayer, it is quite curious how a tradition that doesnt believe in sacraments, transformed the sinners prayer in some sort of sacrament that is the one that really matters in the end.
Its a quicker route to the wallet for there leader and instant gratification for the parishioners.  Seems like a hollow ritual based on an emotional superficial expierience.
A somewhat cynical look, perhaps even one I would have agreed with in the past, but I think altogether unfair.

In my own background, people who walked the aisle were welcomed as genuinely repentant and were expected to start showing some measure of growth (even if by Orthodox standards those measures were not exactly stringent) before they took on any supporting roles. Milk before meat, you know. Preaching about giving was usually rare but directed to those who had been around and who should have known better.
+1

Not to say that manipulation doesn't exist, especially in televangelist and megachurch contexts, but it's not fair to generalize so much.
You wouldn't call this a mass deception of the public?
Televangelists and a lot of megachurches are very deceptive, yes. But I don't think it can therefore be generalized to say that all Protestant altar calls are therefore nothing but empty emotional manipulation.
I have seen many evangelicals reference psalm 50 as a direct moment of change for a persons life. Not just televangelist, but most main streams. To isolate a verse of scripture  and addmitley state that a conversion exists in these words is deceitful to say the least. Christianity is a way of life. For pastor's to use this deception as a means for grabbing susceptible people is down right blasphemy. 
Most orthodox read these verses on a daily basis.  Using it as a fish hook is down right deceitful. 
 

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But ongoing sanctification of one's life is seen as essential evidence that a conversion has really taken place- the two are only separate in theory, not in practice. Few if any modern Protestants are antinomians.

Sometimes catechism is woefully lacking, yes. But I see no reason to attribute that to willful deception or blasphemy (especially considering how terrible catechism sometimes is in Orthodox Churches).
 

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Volnutt said:
But ongoing sanctification of one's life is seen as essential evidence that a conversion has really taken place- the two are only separate in theory, not in practice. Few if any modern Protestants are antinomians.

Sometimes catechism is woefully lacking, yes. But I see no reason to attribute that to willful deception or blasphemy (especially considering how terrible catechism sometimes is in Orthodox Churches).
The bolded part hits it.

Mistaken is not the same thing as intentional lying.
 

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Volnutt said:
But ongoing sanctification of one's life is seen as essential evidence that a conversion has really taken place- the two are only separate in theory, not in practice. Few if any modern Protestants are antinomians.

Sometimes catechism is woefully lacking, yes. But I see no reason to attribute that to willful deception or blasphemy (especially considering how terrible catechism sometimes is in Orthodox Churches).
Its deception unless the person administering the sacrament believes that sanctification occurs on the spot.
 

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Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
But ongoing sanctification of one's life is seen as essential evidence that a conversion has really taken place- the two are only separate in theory, not in practice. Few if any modern Protestants are antinomians.

Sometimes catechism is woefully lacking, yes. But I see no reason to attribute that to willful deception or blasphemy (especially considering how terrible catechism sometimes is in Orthodox Churches).
Its deception unless the person administering the sacrament believes that sanctification occurs on the spot.
You're not speaking the same language as they are. Justification occurs on the spot, sanctification only starts on the spot- and then continues throughout one's life. I've seen them appeal to Hebrews 10:14 for this.
 

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Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
But ongoing sanctification of one's life is seen as essential evidence that a conversion has really taken place- the two are only separate in theory, not in practice. Few if any modern Protestants are antinomians.

Sometimes catechism is woefully lacking, yes. But I see no reason to attribute that to willful deception or blasphemy (especially considering how terrible catechism sometimes is in Orthodox Churches).
Its deception unless the person administering the sacrament believes that sanctification occurs on the spot.
You're not speaking the same language as they are. Justification occurs on the spot, sanctification only starts on the spot- and then continues throughout one's life. I've seen them appeal to Hebrews 10:14 for this.
How can one feel justified if they aren't sanctified first. Its like boasting about a football game that you haven't won yet.
 

Volnutt

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Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
But ongoing sanctification of one's life is seen as essential evidence that a conversion has really taken place- the two are only separate in theory, not in practice. Few if any modern Protestants are antinomians.

Sometimes catechism is woefully lacking, yes. But I see no reason to attribute that to willful deception or blasphemy (especially considering how terrible catechism sometimes is in Orthodox Churches).
Its deception unless the person administering the sacrament believes that sanctification occurs on the spot.
You're not speaking the same language as they are. Justification occurs on the spot, sanctification only starts on the spot- and then continues throughout one's life. I've seen them appeal to Hebrews 10:14 for this.
How can one feel justified if they aren't sanctified first. Its like boasting about a football game that you haven't won yet.
Because of the imputed righteousness of Christ. His sinlessness and sacrificial atonement is "accounted" to the believer. I know that's arguably different from the Orthodox understanding, but it's more or less consistent within itself.
 

Tzimis

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Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
But ongoing sanctification of one's life is seen as essential evidence that a conversion has really taken place- the two are only separate in theory, not in practice. Few if any modern Protestants are antinomians.

Sometimes catechism is woefully lacking, yes. But I see no reason to attribute that to willful deception or blasphemy (especially considering how terrible catechism sometimes is in Orthodox Churches).
Its deception unless the person administering the sacrament believes that sanctification occurs on the spot.
You're not speaking the same language as they are. Justification occurs on the spot, sanctification only starts on the spot- and then continues throughout one's life. I've seen them appeal to Hebrews 10:14 for this.
How can one feel justified if they aren't sanctified first. Its like boasting about a football game that you haven't won yet.
Because of the imputed righteousness of Christ. His sinlessness and sacrificial atonement is "accounted" to the believer. I know that's arguably different from the Orthodox understanding, but it's more or less consistent within itself.
Sorry but, I still dont understand it. Im trying to make an attempt though.
 

Volnutt

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Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
But ongoing sanctification of one's life is seen as essential evidence that a conversion has really taken place- the two are only separate in theory, not in practice. Few if any modern Protestants are antinomians.

Sometimes catechism is woefully lacking, yes. But I see no reason to attribute that to willful deception or blasphemy (especially considering how terrible catechism sometimes is in Orthodox Churches).
Its deception unless the person administering the sacrament believes that sanctification occurs on the spot.
You're not speaking the same language as they are. Justification occurs on the spot, sanctification only starts on the spot- and then continues throughout one's life. I've seen them appeal to Hebrews 10:14 for this.
How can one feel justified if they aren't sanctified first. Its like boasting about a football game that you haven't won yet.
Because of the imputed righteousness of Christ. His sinlessness and sacrificial atonement is "accounted" to the believer. I know that's arguably different from the Orthodox understanding, but it's more or less consistent within itself.
Sorry but, I still dont understand it. Im trying to make an attempt though.
I believe Martin Luther's phrase was we are "dung covered with snow." Since we are too sinful to cooperate with His grace for sanctification, then God must create a sort of "legal fiction" whereby He "pretends" that the perfect obedience of Christ is really our obedience and justifies on us on that basis. After that point, we are able to make the righteousness of Christ our own through the Holy Spirit working in our lives.
 

Tzimis

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Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
But ongoing sanctification of one's life is seen as essential evidence that a conversion has really taken place- the two are only separate in theory, not in practice. Few if any modern Protestants are antinomians.

Sometimes catechism is woefully lacking, yes. But I see no reason to attribute that to willful deception or blasphemy (especially considering how terrible catechism sometimes is in Orthodox Churches).
Its deception unless the person administering the sacrament believes that sanctification occurs on the spot.
You're not speaking the same language as they are. Justification occurs on the spot, sanctification only starts on the spot- and then continues throughout one's life. I've seen them appeal to Hebrews 10:14 for this.
How can one feel justified if they aren't sanctified first. Its like boasting about a football game that you haven't won yet.
Because of the imputed righteousness of Christ. His sinlessness and sacrificial atonement is "accounted" to the believer. I know that's arguably different from the Orthodox understanding, but it's more or less consistent within itself.
Sorry but, I still dont understand it. Im trying to make an attempt though.
I believe Martin Luther's phrase was we are "dung covered with snow." Since we are too sinful to cooperate with His grace for sanctification, then God must create a sort of "legal fiction" whereby He "pretends" that the perfect obedience of Christ is really our obedience and justifies on us on that basis. After that point, we are able to make the righteousness of Christ our own through the Holy Spirit working in our lives.
Basicly a Pass. Who sanctioned the pass though?
I find it fascinating how the human mind can overcome obstacles.  Even if they are nonexistent. The judicial concept of god would have lead to inovation we in the east never had.
 

Volnutt

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Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
But ongoing sanctification of one's life is seen as essential evidence that a conversion has really taken place- the two are only separate in theory, not in practice. Few if any modern Protestants are antinomians.

Sometimes catechism is woefully lacking, yes. But I see no reason to attribute that to willful deception or blasphemy (especially considering how terrible catechism sometimes is in Orthodox Churches).
Its deception unless the person administering the sacrament believes that sanctification occurs on the spot.
You're not speaking the same language as they are. Justification occurs on the spot, sanctification only starts on the spot- and then continues throughout one's life. I've seen them appeal to Hebrews 10:14 for this.
How can one feel justified if they aren't sanctified first. Its like boasting about a football game that you haven't won yet.
Because of the imputed righteousness of Christ. His sinlessness and sacrificial atonement is "accounted" to the believer. I know that's arguably different from the Orthodox understanding, but it's more or less consistent within itself.
Sorry but, I still dont understand it. Im trying to make an attempt though.
I believe Martin Luther's phrase was we are "dung covered with snow." Since we are too sinful to cooperate with His grace for sanctification, then God must create a sort of "legal fiction" whereby He "pretends" that the perfect obedience of Christ is really our obedience and justifies on us on that basis. After that point, we are able to make the righteousness of Christ our own through the Holy Spirit working in our lives.
Basicly a Pass. Who sanctioned the pass though?
I find it fascinating how the human mind can overcome obstacles.  Even if they are nonexistent. The judicial concept of god would have lead to inovation we in the east never had.
It was sanctioned by the sacrifice of Christ, allowing the Father to forgive us without violating His own justice.
 

Alveus Lacuna

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Orthodox believe that baptism justifies the believer and imputes righteousness; washes away all sin.
 

Volnutt

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Alveus Lacuna said:
Orthodox believe that baptism justifies the believer and imputes righteousness; washes away all sin.
Agreed. I think the only real difference with traditional Protestant soteriology on that score is quibbling over what constitutes faith and what constitutes works- a debate I quit caring about a while ago.
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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David Young: don't feel obligated to answer, but I was curious if you had any thoughts about my original response here.

Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
I'm not interested in converting anyone to Orthodoxy anymore. I'll defend the Faith the best I can and leave the rest to God. I am becoming increasingly ecumenical the older I get.

I will point out something from my own experiences however: During my 20 years as an Evangelical, I encountered many churches where I did not see or experience the grace of God. However, I know the grace of God is present and active in every Orthodox Church, simply because regardless of the faith (or lack thereof) of the clergy and the people, the Sacraments remain unaltered and always efficacious. I can attend any Orthodox liturgy anywhere in the world, and I know that the Body and Blood of Christ will be offered to me. With Protestant churches, I never know what I will experience or encounter. So, that's just one reason why I am Orthodox.  :)

Selam
 

Volnutt

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Any Orthodox Church? You mean like the EO Churches that you're not in communion with? ???
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Volnutt said:
Any Orthodox Church? You mean like the EO Churches that you're not in communion with? ???
I'm in communion with the Orthodox Church. There is One Church. If a Church is Orthodox, I am in communion with them. Whether or not others wish to be in communion with me is up to them.  ;)

Selam
 

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So, then

I can attend any Orthodox liturgy anywhere in the world, and I know that the Body and Blood of Christ will be offered to me.
Is either a lie or a meaningless statement. A ROCOR Church, for example, is not going to offer the Body and Blood of Christ to you (unless you lie to the priest, I guess). If all you meant was "Orthodox Churches have the Real Presence and Protestant ones don't" then you didn't phrase that well at all and it was just kind of pointless grandstanding to boot.
 

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Volnutt said:
So, then

I can attend any Orthodox liturgy anywhere in the world, and I know that the Body and Blood of Christ will be offered to me.
Is either a lie or a meaningless statement. A ROCOR Church, for example, is not going to offer the Body and Blood of Christ to you (unless you lie to the priest, I guess). If all you meant was "Orthodox Churches have the Real Presence and Protestant ones don't" then you didn't phrase that well at all and it was just kind of pointless grandstanding to boot.
Wherever the Body and Blood of Christ is offered, the Church is present. Whether or not priests choose to administer the Sacraments to me is up to them. And that's a private matter of confession and economia that I won't discuss here. I stand by my original statement: "I can attend any Orthodox liturgy anywhere in the world, and I know that the Body and Blood of Christ will be offered." Perhaps I should have left out "to me," although generally speaking I believe that Christ does indeed offer Himself to me through His body and blood, in every Orthodox Church.

Selam
 

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Concerning the imputed rigteousness debate, if I am not mistaken, the work of Christ in the cross ''creates'' or generates this amount of merit that is transfered somehow from Jesus to the sinner in order to justify him. I wonder if the Geneva and swiss strong banking culture have some influence in that doctrine, this whole imputed righteousness doctrine vocabulary sounds like a financial operation.
 

Tzimis

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Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
But ongoing sanctification of one's life is seen as essential evidence that a conversion has really taken place- the two are only separate in theory, not in practice. Few if any modern Protestants are antinomians.

Sometimes catechism is woefully lacking, yes. But I see no reason to attribute that to willful deception or blasphemy (especially considering how terrible catechism sometimes is in Orthodox Churches).
Its deception unless the person administering the sacrament believes that sanctification occurs on the spot.
You're not speaking the same language as they are. Justification occurs on the spot, sanctification only starts on the spot- and then continues throughout one's life. I've seen them appeal to Hebrews 10:14 for this.
How can one feel justified if they aren't sanctified first. Its like boasting about a football game that you haven't won yet.
Because of the imputed righteousness of Christ. His sinlessness and sacrificial atonement is "accounted" to the believer. I know that's arguably different from the Orthodox understanding, but it's more or less consistent within itself.
Sorry but, I still dont understand it. Im trying to make an attempt though.
I believe Martin Luther's phrase was we are "dung covered with snow." Since we are too sinful to cooperate with His grace for sanctification, then God must create a sort of "legal fiction" whereby He "pretends" that the perfect obedience of Christ is really our obedience and justifies on us on that basis. After that point, we are able to make the righteousness of Christ our own through the Holy Spirit working in our lives.
Basicly a Pass. Who sanctioned the pass though?
I find it fascinating how the human mind can overcome obstacles.  Even if they are nonexistent. The judicial concept of god would have lead to inovation we in the east never had.
It was sanctioned by the sacrifice of Christ, allowing the Father to forgive us without violating His own justice.
Let me rephrase the question. Who was the theologian that can up with this concept?
 
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