• Please remember: Pray for Ukraine in the Prayer forum; Share news in the Christian News section; Discuss religious implications in FFA: Religious Topics; Discuss political implications in Politics (and if you don't have access, PM me) Thank you! + Fr. George, Forum Administrator

Why is Orthodoxy a declining denomination?

andrewlya

Archon
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,238
Reaction score
24
Points
38
Website
yrm.org
Faith
Unitarian Messianic
Jurisdiction
Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
Genesis 9:3
Leviticus 11 :. You may eat any animal that has a split hoof completely divided and that chews the cud. ... And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.
 

andrewlya

Archon
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,238
Reaction score
24
Points
38
Website
yrm.org
Faith
Unitarian Messianic
Jurisdiction
Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
Yes, one is defined as a Christian by believing Jesus is God, and by believing in the Holy Trinity.


Circumcision is quite burdensome. If Christ still requires circumcision, then I will renounce him for as long as I exist.

Thankfully, you're just a heretic and apostate who read the Bible privately, misinterpreting all along the way to your own folly.
But where did you get such a definition of a Christian? It's not in the Bible.
I don't promote physical circumcision.We are circumcised in heart. Paul says this:26 So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the[c] written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.-Romans 2:25-27
 

andrewlya

Archon
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,238
Reaction score
24
Points
38
Website
yrm.org
Faith
Unitarian Messianic
Jurisdiction
Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
I still can't wrap my head around the assertion that the Bible never says Jesus is God. What do you do with passages like 2 Peter 1:1 or the first chapter of John?
I wish I could answer to you. But every time I answer such question on this forum, the topic gets locked. We can discuss in private chat if you wish. I do not want to go into discussing trinity here not to hurt people's feelings
 

andrewlya

Archon
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,238
Reaction score
24
Points
38
Website
yrm.org
Faith
Unitarian Messianic
Jurisdiction
Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
Acts 10:13

And then there came a voice saying to him, Rise, Peter, kill and eat.
And what did Peter say and do? He didn't kill and eat, did he? If you read the following passage it says the vision was in relation to preaching the Word to gentiles
 

biro

Protostrator
Site Supporter
Joined
Aug 31, 2010
Messages
24,064
Reaction score
472
Points
83
Age
49
Website
archiveofourown.org
This is one reason why cherry picking is wonderful for eating food, but terrible for reading the Bible.
 

andrewlya

Archon
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,238
Reaction score
24
Points
38
Website
yrm.org
Faith
Unitarian Messianic
Jurisdiction
Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
This is one reason why cherry picking is wonderful for eating food, but terrible for reading the Bible.
I am glad you said cherry picking, agreed :)
 

andrewlya

Archon
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,238
Reaction score
24
Points
38
Website
yrm.org
Faith
Unitarian Messianic
Jurisdiction
Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
Another poor attempt to teach from the church with one man in it.
Messianic Judaism and Hebrew Roots Christians are on the rise. But guess what, this is not about being with the majority. In Matthew 7:13–14, Jesus said, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
 

Ainnir

Taxiarches
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
7,998
Reaction score
1,089
Points
113
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Antiochian
I still can't wrap my head around the assertion that the Bible never says Jesus is God. What do you do with passages like 2 Peter 1:1 or the first chapter of John?
Or John 8:58, where Christ says, "Before Abraham was, I am," which unmistakably echoes God's encounter with Moses. And John 10:33, where the Jews attempt to stone him, telling him, "You being man make yourself out to be God," and Christ did not correct them or deny it. This occurs in a passage where being the Son of God is clearly equated with being God. Then there's John 20:48, where after seeing the wounds of the risen Christ, Thomas says, "My Lord and my God." And Christ again does not correct him. Or in John 18:6 when Christ said, "I am he," and those arresting Him inexplicably "drew back and fell to the ground."

It is passages like these that led C.S. Lewis to say Christ was either Lord, lunatic, or liar. There is no room for him to be only a perfect human being or a just a great prophet. It is passages like these that you have to do one of two things with if you claim to believe the Bible: accept or explain away. If you choose to explain them away, you're basically saying God doesn't know what He's talking about or that He failed in divinely inspiring the human authors He chose, because these passages are very plain.

Beyond that, Christ's Nativity, Baptism, Transfiguration, and Resurrection should all shed light on His Divine Nature, but I know these can be explained away by the very determined. In my opinion, when you do this, either you can't accept Christ as the Messiah or you can't profess a monotheistic faith. Because if the Messiah is supposed to be divine and you explain away Christ's divinity, then you say he is not the Messiah and you are still waiting (this is the modern Jewish stance, I believe). If you say these things were miracles God gave, and Christ is something between human and god, then you do not have a monotheistic religion, because you believe in "God and a half." Instead, consider that in the Shema, when it said, "the LORD is one," it could mean "unified, undivided" not "singular." And consider that in creation, when God spoke things into being, that this speaking was Himself the Divine Logos, God the Son, the pre-incarnate Christ. Remember that God spoke in the first person plural when creating man. Who is "us," if not the Trinity? Because "image" is singular, there can be no differences in the nature of the parties of "us."


Messianic Judaism and Hebrew Roots Christians are on the rise. But guess what, this is not about being with the majority. In Matthew 7:13–14, Jesus said, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
Thank you for admitting that Orthodoxy does not have to be in the majority or even growing to be true. What you have to figure out for yourself is what is truly true; not because you can decide what truth is, but because we each have to recognize it and embrace it for ourselves.

I wish I could answer to you. But every time I answer such question on this forum, the topic gets locked. We can discuss in private chat if you wish. I do not want to go into discussing trinity here not to hurt people's feelings
You are in no way hurting people's feelings, I assure you. The people who are engaging you are not confused or worried about this point (do not conflate that with omniscience on the subject, that would be foolish). For my part, nothing you can say would sway me. The reason the topics are locked when you "answer this question" is because, as you well know, promoting a faith contrary to Orthodoxy is not permitted on this forum. You may clarify what you believe; you may not assert that it is correct and Orthodoxy is wrong. Often your posts take the form of the latter, and as far as I can tell, you participation here is almost always toward that end. If I've misread you, though, please forgive me. Perhaps you could clarify your intent.
 
Joined
Jul 17, 2018
Messages
589
Reaction score
311
Points
63
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
OCA
Leviticus 11 :. You may eat any animal that has a split hoof completely divided and that chews the cud. ... And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.
Why is it that when we completely refute your claims with the clear word of scripture you ask that we stick to the topic of the thread (that the Church is shrinking) and stop making points refuting your worldview, but as soon as those posts can be reasonably forgotten and buried in the thread you start talking about the Mosaic law again? How convenient.
 

Stinky

Mess
Joined
Jul 24, 2020
Messages
2,353
Reaction score
1,042
Points
113
Location
US
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
OCA
Romans 11

King James Version




11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen
 

andrewlya

Archon
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,238
Reaction score
24
Points
38
Website
yrm.org
Faith
Unitarian Messianic
Jurisdiction
Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
Or John 8:58, where Christ says, "Before Abraham was, I am," which unmistakably echoes God's encounter with Moses. And John 10:33, where the Jews attempt to stone him, telling him, "You being man make yourself out to be God," and Christ did not correct them or deny it. This occurs in a passage where being the Son of God is clearly equated with being God. Then there's John 20:48, where after seeing the wounds of the risen Christ, Thomas says, "My Lord and my God." And Christ again does not correct him. Or in John 18:6 when Christ said, "I am he," and those arresting Him inexplicably "drew back and fell to the ground."

It is passages like these that led C.S. Lewis to say Christ was either Lord, lunatic, or liar. There is no room for him to be only a perfect human being or a just a great prophet. It is passages like these that you have to do one of two things with if you claim to believe the Bible: accept or explain away. If you choose to explain them away, you're basically saying God doesn't know what He's talking about or that He failed in divinely inspiring the human authors He chose, because these passages are very plain.

Beyond that, Christ's Nativity, Baptism, Transfiguration, and Resurrection should all shed light on His Divine Nature, but I know these can be explained away by the very determined. In my opinion, when you do this, either you can't accept Christ as the Messiah or you can't profess a monotheistic faith. Because if the Messiah is supposed to be divine and you explain away Christ's divinity, then you say he is not the Messiah and you are still waiting (this is the modern Jewish stance, I believe). If you say these things were miracles God gave, and Christ is something between human and god, then you do not have a monotheistic religion, because you believe in "God and a half." Instead, consider that in the Shema, when it said, "the LORD is one," it could mean "unified, undivided" not "singular." And consider that in creation, when God spoke things into being, that this speaking was Himself the Divine Logos, God the Son, the pre-incarnate Christ. Remember that God spoke in the first person plural when creating man. Who is "us," if not the Trinity? Because "image" is singular, there can be no differences in the nature of the parties of "us."



Thank you for admitting that Orthodoxy does not have to be in the majority or even growing to be true. What you have to figure out for yourself is what is truly true; not because you can decide what truth is, but because we each have to recognize it and embrace it for ourselves.


You are in no way hurting people's feelings, I assure you. The people who are engaging you are not confused or worried about this point (do not conflate that with omniscience on the subject, that would be foolish). For my part, nothing you can say would sway me. The reason the topics are locked when you "answer this question" is because, as you well know, promoting a faith contrary to Orthodoxy is not permitted on this forum. You may clarify what you believe; you may not assert that it is correct and Orthodoxy is wrong. Often your posts take the form of the latter, and as far as I can tell, you participation here is almost always toward that end. If I've misread you, though, please forgive me. Perhaps you could clarify your intent.
I get into a bit of a pickle on this forum if I start discussing the trinity. If you really wish to do this, you can send me a private message and we can have a discussion if you like.
 

andrewlya

Archon
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,238
Reaction score
24
Points
38
Website
yrm.org
Faith
Unitarian Messianic
Jurisdiction
Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
Why is it that when we completely refute your claims with the clear word of scripture you ask that we stick to the topic of the thread (that the Church is shrinking) and stop making points refuting your worldview, but as soon as those posts can be reasonably forgotten and buried in the thread you start talking about the Mosaic law again? How convenient.
So "Moses laws", or God's laws as God gave them to Moses, also includes the 10 Commandments, so you reject them too? They are Old Testament Commandments.
 

Stinky

Mess
Joined
Jul 24, 2020
Messages
2,353
Reaction score
1,042
Points
113
Location
US
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
OCA
rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
I have no idea where that winking imoje came from. I did not put it there. But it really fits nicely in the spot it appeared I must say.
 
Joined
Jul 17, 2018
Messages
589
Reaction score
311
Points
63
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
OCA
So "Moses laws", or God's laws as God gave them to Moses, also includes the 10 Commandments, so you reject them too? They are Old Testament Commandments.
We follow the commandments of Christ, which includes all the 10 commandments but transcends their ceremonial qualities. Example: "I tell you he who looks at a woman lustfully commits adultery in his heart. " but we don't follow the mosaic law about stoning of adulterers. Read the whole acts chapter 15.
 

Ainnir

Taxiarches
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
7,998
Reaction score
1,089
Points
113
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Antiochian
We don't follow any of the sacrificial system of the Mosaic Law because Christ's sacrifice fulfilled it once and for all. Christ Himself said, "I did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it."
 

andrewlya

Archon
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,238
Reaction score
24
Points
38
Website
yrm.org
Faith
Unitarian Messianic
Jurisdiction
Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
We don't follow any of the sacrificial system of the Mosaic Law because Christ's sacrifice fulfilled it once and for all. Christ Himself said, "I did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it."
I don't follow sacrificial system either. What a great verse. Jesus saying that he didn't come to ABOLISH the law. He's fulfilled the prophesy of being the Promised Messiah.
 

andrewlya

Archon
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,238
Reaction score
24
Points
38
Website
yrm.org
Faith
Unitarian Messianic
Jurisdiction
Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
Exactly. the mosaic law is fulfilled and so we follow what Jesus commanded.
Fulfilled is not the same as abolished, is it? Other wise the verse would read like this: I've not come to ABOLISH the law but to abolish it- it makes no sense. If the law is not abolished it is still standing.
 

melkite

Elder
Joined
Mar 25, 2011
Messages
327
Reaction score
111
Points
43
Age
41
Location
Maryland
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Jurisdiction
Eparchy of Newton
Fulfilled is not the same as abolished, is it? Other wise the verse would read like this: I've not come to ABOLISH the law but to abolish it- it makes no sense. If the law is not abolished it is still standing.
It does kind of mean it's abolished. If you owe a debt, and you've fulfilled it, do you continue paying on it? No, you don't. Once you've fulfilled your obligation, the obligation is terminated, or abolished.
 
Joined
Jul 17, 2018
Messages
589
Reaction score
311
Points
63
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
OCA
Fulfilled is not the same as abolished, is it? Other wise the verse would read like this: I've not come to ABOLISH the law but to abolish it- it makes no sense. If the law is not abolished it is still standing.
The law of Christ i.e the spiritual moral law (worship one God, don't murder, don't steal etc) still stands because it pertains to love. The ceremonial and other laws of the Jews that pertain to sacrifice and ritual cleanliness, as well as governmental structure and punishments for crimes to be carried out by the state are fulfilled by Christ and don't need to be followed as per Acts 15, and the entire book of Galatians.
 

LizaSymonenko

Hoplitarches
Staff member
Global Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
16,704
Reaction score
653
Points
113
Location
Detroit
Website
uocofusa.org
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
I get into a bit of a pickle on this forum if I start discussing the trinity. If you really wish to do this, you can send me a private message and we can have a discussion if you like.
Stop playing the martyr. You've complained about moderation of this Forum a number of times in this thread.

If you are so adamant about replying to a comment you feel will get the thread locked, feel free to quote that comment and start a new thread.... and stop being a poor victim.
 

Katechon

High Elder
Warned
Post Moderated
Joined
Nov 16, 2018
Messages
522
Reaction score
256
Points
63
Location
Germany
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
ROC-MP
The law of Christ i.e the spiritual moral law (worship one God, don't murder, don't steal etc) still stands because it pertains to love. The ceremonial and other laws of the Jews that pertain to sacrifice and ritual cleanliness, as well as governmental structure and punishments for crimes to be carried out by the state are fulfilled by Christ and don't need to be followed as per Acts 15, and the entire book of Galatians.
Well, they are rather carried over into a spiritual reality (as in the presence of the Holy Spirit), rather than us not in the need to follow it. The trinitarian economy obviously worked different in the Old Covenant than it does since after Pentecost. The law of circumcision for example now pertains entirely to the heart, and not the flesh. As it did in principle too in the Old Covenant, for Jeremiah called Israel uncircumcised due to it's heart not being circumcised.
 
Last edited:

andrewlya

Archon
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,238
Reaction score
24
Points
38
Website
yrm.org
Faith
Unitarian Messianic
Jurisdiction
Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
It does kind of mean it's abolished. If you owe a debt, and you've fulfilled it, do you continue paying on it? No, you don't. Once you've fulfilled your obligation, the obligation is terminated, or abolished.
Really, then what was the point in saying that the law was NOT abolished if it was abolished?
 

andrewlya

Archon
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,238
Reaction score
24
Points
38
Website
yrm.org
Faith
Unitarian Messianic
Jurisdiction
Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
Stop playing the martyr. You've complained about moderation of this Forum a number of times in this thread.

If you are so adamant about replying to a comment you feel will get the thread locked, feel free to quote that comment and start a new thread.... and stop being a poor victim.
I've discussed trinity extensively here, you can search for my previous posts. Anyone wanting to discuss trinity with me, fine just PM me, thanks
 

Stinky

Mess
Joined
Jul 24, 2020
Messages
2,353
Reaction score
1,042
Points
113
Location
US
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
OCA
Romans 11 kjv
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Apologize for the length of that quote earlier. The verses I want to draw attention to are these which addresses the original question on this thread of NUMBERS of believers. God has always sought out the remnant. In the hard times people fall away. The sower parable talks about the seed ( Gospel) going out and the different situations which cause unfruitfulness. God wants healthy, fruitful followers. And that is often a minority.
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,557
Reaction score
260
Points
83
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
So "Moses laws", or God's laws as God gave them to Moses, also includes the 10 Commandments, so you reject them too? They are Old Testament Commandments.
We only have two commandments. We aren't under the law of Moses.
 

andrewlya

Archon
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,238
Reaction score
24
Points
38
Website
yrm.org
Faith
Unitarian Messianic
Jurisdiction
Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
Does Orthodoxy believe in faith alone like protestants do?
 

andrewlya

Archon
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,238
Reaction score
24
Points
38
Website
yrm.org
Faith
Unitarian Messianic
Jurisdiction
Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
See post #142 in this thread above.
If you follow the following laws such as worshiping one God, not avenging, helping the poor, respecting parents and elders, not stealing, rejecting paganism, not oppressing the weak, loving God etc you are following Torah that is Old Testament laws. So whether you say that you are not under the law, you still consider those aforementioned laws important in your spiritual life, and those laws are from Torah whether you like it or not, commanded by God Himself
 
Joined
Jul 17, 2018
Messages
589
Reaction score
311
Points
63
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
OCA
If you follow the following laws such as worshiping one God, not avenging, helping the poor, respecting parents and elders, not stealing, rejecting paganism, not oppressing the weak, loving God etc you are following Torah that is Old Testament laws. So whether you say that you are not under the law, you still consider those aforementioned laws important in your spiritual life, and those laws are from Torah whether you like it or not.
I already went through this. We follow the laws that pertain to love, like stealing murdering and fornication are forbidden to Christians. We don't have to get circumcised, make temple sacrifices, and follow kosher because Christ fulfilled those. As Katechon clarified, we follow the spiritual effect of those laws - not that they are simply abolished. Now we circumcised spiritually now through baptism, we partake of the sacrifice of Christ through the Eucharist, and instead of being defiled by what we eat, we instead try to become pure in our speech.
10When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: 11Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”
 

andrewlya

Archon
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,238
Reaction score
24
Points
38
Website
yrm.org
Faith
Unitarian Messianic
Jurisdiction
Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
The reason you are all so distant from the Hebrew roots of Christianity is because early Catholic church did their best to remove themselves from its Jewish roots, unfortunately orthodoxy simply follows in Catholics foot steps. This is why it's so hard for a Jew to convert to Orthodoxy or Christianity in general. It's like a different religion to them where believers seem to adopt lawlessness, reject Biblical Feasts and Torah. MESSIAH WAS A JEW, but what is so Jewish about Orthodoxy?
 

andrewlya

Archon
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,238
Reaction score
24
Points
38
Website
yrm.org
Faith
Unitarian Messianic
Jurisdiction
Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
I already went through this. We follow the laws that pertain to love, like stealing murdering and fornication are forbidden to Christians. We don't have to get circumcised, make temple sacrifices, and follow kosher because Christ fulfilled those. As Katechon clarified, we follow the spiritual effect of those laws - not that they are simply abolished. Now we circumcised spiritually now through baptism, we partake of the sacrifice of Christ through the Eucharist, and instead of being defiled by what we eat, we instead try to become pure in our speech.
10When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: 11Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”
“Hear and understand: 11Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”. I'm sorry but this is a weak point. Please re-read this passage. Jesus was not referring to eating unclean foods such as pork, the whole conversation was in relation to eating food with unclean hands. I urge you to re-read this passage in its context.
 

andrewlya

Archon
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,238
Reaction score
24
Points
38
Website
yrm.org
Faith
Unitarian Messianic
Jurisdiction
Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
I already went through this. We follow the laws that pertain to love, like stealing murdering and fornication are forbidden to Christians. We don't have to get circumcised, make temple sacrifices, and follow kosher because Christ fulfilled those. As Katechon clarified, we follow the spiritual effect of those laws - not that they are simply abolished. Now we circumcised spiritually now through baptism, we partake of the sacrifice of Christ through the Eucharist, and instead of being defiled by what we eat, we instead try to become pure in our speech.
10When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: 11Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”
Reading Mark 7:1-4, we recognise that the story began with the Pharisees accusing some of Jesus’s disciples of not washing their hands before eating bread. And Mark went on to note how the Pharisees and the Jews would not eat without washing their hands according to the “Tradition of the Elders”. And how they don’t eat without washing after coming from the marketplace and how they have a lot of these traditions like washing of cups, pots, brazen vessels and tables.

In verse 5, the Pharisees ask Jesus, why His disciple don’t walk according to the “Tradition of the Elders”, eating with unwashed hands.

This is what Jesus addresses in the verses that proceed. Not holding to the Tradition of the Elders & Eating with unwashed hands. So this was nothing to do with eating unclean foods, can you imagine if Jesus was saying that it is OK to earn pork to the Pharisees? This would have been a blatant breaking of the Torah which Jesus wouldn't have done as he loves his Father and followed his Father's laws to the letter.Jesus wouldn't do that, at least let's agree on this.
 

biro

Protostrator
Site Supporter
Joined
Aug 31, 2010
Messages
24,064
Reaction score
472
Points
83
Age
49
Website
archiveofourown.org
Things move cyclically. One car will be popular, then another; one movie will be popular then another; and so on.

People are born, may move to where there are houses, schools and jobs, and then die.

No one knows how much time they have. I don’t.

I pray God gives all of us the best that he may.

But only He knows when He will call us home.
 
Joined
Jul 17, 2018
Messages
589
Reaction score
311
Points
63
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
OCA
The reason you are all so distant from the Hebrew roots of Christianity is because early Catholic church did their best to remove themselves from its Jewish roots, unfortunately orthodoxy simply follows in Catholics foot steps. This is why it's so hard for a Jew to convert to Orthodoxy or Christianity in general. It's like a different religion to them where believers seem to adopt lawlessness, reject Biblical Feasts and Torah. MESSIAH WAS A JEW, but what is so Jewish about Orthodoxy?
The reason you are so far from Christianity is because you follow an Arian or Sabellian Judaizing sect that also denies that Jesus was crucified on a cross and is completely unaware of what the people who knew the apostles taught, as well as your sect confounds the teachings of St. Paul, who said nothing is unclean, who said not to follow those who observe moons and Sabbath, and said anyone who circumcised himself was accursed.

As to Mark: you are correct in that it refers to the pharisaical tradition and not Mosaic law in particular. If you don't like that example, please explain Romans 14: I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

This passage is about food. Please explain what it means when Paul says NOTHING (food) is unclean.
 

andrewlya

Archon
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,238
Reaction score
24
Points
38
Website
yrm.org
Faith
Unitarian Messianic
Jurisdiction
Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
Things move cyclically. One car will be popular, then another; one movie will be popular then another; and so on.

People are born, may move to where there are houses, schools and jobs, and then die.

No one knows how much time they have. I don’t.

I pray God gives all of us the best that he may.

But only He knows when He will call us home.
Fair points
 
Top