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Why is Orthodoxy a declining denomination?

andrewlya

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andrewlya, for failing to credit your sources as well as limiting your quoted material to two paragraphs, you are receiving 150 points for 2 weeks. Appeal via PM, if you wish. Thanks. --Ainnir
The reason you are so far from Christianity is because you follow an Arian or Sabellian Judaizing sect that also denies that Jesus was crucified on a cross and is completely unaware of what the people who knew the apostles taught, as well as your sect confounds the teachings of St. Paul, who said nothing is unclean, who said not to follow those who observe moons and Sabbath, and said anyone who circumcised himself was accursed.

As to Mark: you are correct in that it refers to the pharisaical tradition and not Mosaic law in particular. If you don't like that example, please explain Romans 14: I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

This passage is about food. Please explain what it means when Paul says NOTHING (food) is unclean.
Just to note I'm not a sabellian. Arian theology makes sense, yes.
Hope this answers your question.


Text of article removed and replaced with a link and preview. --Ainnir
 
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biro

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You can’t just make up your own church. I’m sorry, but you can’t be the only person who has correctly interpreted the Scriptures.
 

andrewlya

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You can’t just make up your own church. I’m sorry, but you can’t be the only person who has correctly interpreted the Scriptures.
Ive not made up my own church. I've joined joined a like minded believers. There are lot of Messianic Jews around, Hebrew Roots Christians are growing too. How can you say I've made up my own church .
 
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Just to note I'm not a sabellian. Arian theology makes sense, yes.
First, let us notice the context. Romans 14 begins by telling us that some in the Church wanted to be vegetarians: “Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables” (verses 1 and 2).

We see from this that the points of dispute that were causing division were matters of little importance. Among them was vegetarianism (a subject not dealt with in the Old Testament). It’s worth asking ourselves whether the apostle Paul would ever have referred to Old Testament injunctions as “doubtful things.”

More importantly, we must ask why any believer in the first century would choose to be vegetarian. Meat was expensive and highly desired as a part of one’s diet back then, unlike today when meat is a staple in Western diets.

The key lies in a chapter that deals with similar matters and gives remarkably similar instructions. In 1 Corinthians 8, Paul also wrote of Christians who chose to avoid eating meat. But here the reason was explicitly given: In the first century it was common for the meats that had been offered to idols to be sold in the marketplace after the offering.

Paul explained to the Church that an idol is nothing (verse 4), but that if a brother’s conscience was troubled by the fact that the meat on the table had been offered to an idol, a brother of stronger conscience should not offend the weaker Christian by insisting on eating it (verses 7, 9-13).
“In 1 Cor. 8 the problem of the strong versus the weak brother, as regards diet, is also dealt with. The letter to the Corinthians was written less than a year before that to the Romans. It seems reasonable to conclude that in 1 Cor. 8 and Rom. 14 Paul is dealing with essentially the same problem. In Corinthians the problem is identified as the propriety of eating foods sacrificed to idols. According to the ancient practice pagan priests carried on an extensive merchandise of the animal sacrifices offered to idols. Paul told the Corinthian believers … that inasmuch as an idol was nothing there was no wrong, per se, in eating foods dedicated to it. … Probably for fear of offending in this matter some Christians abstained from flesh foods entirely, which means that their food was restricted to ‘herbs,’ that is vegetables (see Rom. 14:2)” (vol. 6, pp. 634-635).
Paul summarizes: “Let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way” (Romans 14:13).

Paul then goes on to explain that “there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean” (verse 14). Note that the word translated “unclean” here is not akathartos, the usual word for unclean meats, but rather koinos, a word normally translated “common,” sometimes referring to that which had died of itself and had not been ritually slaughtered and bled.
The context here is not of foods defined as common in the Bible, but of those foods judged to be common by the conscience of the individual Christian. “To him who considers anything to be unclean [koinos], to him it is unclean. Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food [broma, the general word for food, not the word for meat] the one for whom Christ died” (verses 14-15).
Paul later states: “Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense” (verse 20). Obviously he doesn’t mean that all things are pure in the universal sense, since some things (certain mushrooms, for example) are poisonous, and others (snakes and lizards, for example) are clearly unappetising to most people as well as not being sanctioned in the Bible as good for food. These words are to be read in the context of secondary matters that are of no consequence in and of themselves, except in the matter of offense.
He then makes a summary statement: “It is good neither to eat meat [kreas, animal flesh] nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak” (verse 21). In other words, if you need to go vegetarian or to avoid alcohol or to do whatever is needed to avoid offending a brother, do it!
So we see that Romans 14 deals with practical matters of diet in the Greco-Roman pagan world and has nothing to do with the abolition of the law of clean and unclean meats.
Hope this answers your question.
Now you are copying and pasting from a blog without crediting it. This was obviously not your writing style and upon an internet search confirmed. This is where you plagiarized from https://lifehopeandtruth.com/bible/biblical-laws/clean-and-unclean-animals/romans-14/
I presume your name is not Ralph Levy.

Kosher was certainly one of the topics debated in the early church because it's under the mosaic law. Besides the apostles themselves, there were both the judaizers who held the mosaic law and the antinomians (for instance the Nicolaitians) who engaged in sexual immorality and eating food sacrificed to idols. That is they had no real moral standards. "Sin more so grace may abound. "
When the apostles issued their statement to reconcile the Jewish and Gentile believers, they said this:


For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Surely you don't think that if Christians were supposed to keep kosher that the apostles would say so here? And if you're going to say they just assumed that those restrictions would continue, then why would they have to make an additional statement on blood and food sacrificed to idols if everyone knew we were supposed to follow kosher?

Finally, Ephesians 2:15 says Christ abolished the ordinances of Moses so that we can live to Him. Please explain, this time without copying and pasting an entire article.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
 
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FULK NERA

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denomination = de 'down' or 'full' + nomination 'naming' = a society identified by a name, but mostly used about religious organizations.

Isn't this the word governments use for churches that wish to register their presence in the country? Are the Orthodox churches not registered as denominations in the countries where they are active? Sure, Orthodoxy as a whole is not a single denomination but many, just like Protestantism isn't a denomination but many? Do you have a source for Catholic churches not being called denominations? If so, one may wish to exclude them when, for example, writing an article about Christian denominations. <:}

I ask because I like to get everything straight in my terminology.
I already defined denomination in its original intended sense way up top on this thread. The OP is trolling.
 

FULK NERA

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Yes, born orthodox I attended Russian orthodox church untill my teen years and then moved on to Greek Orthodox Church at which I had served untill around 2015. So, yes, I know a bit about Orthodox extensive focus on rituals and services. I know they do read the Gospel during the service but there is very little time spent on sermons, on many occasions there were not sermons given at all, the teaching about the Word was almost absent. I knew little about the teachings of the Bible untill I picked it up and started reading myself. Up to that point, I was very good at kissing and bowing before the icons, lightening the candles and crossing myself every other minute etc ..but I knew far less what the Word has to say about the righteous living. In comparison to other denominations, even to Catholics who also place a lot of time and effort into rituals and services, they seem to preach the Bible to the audience more. Orthodox seem to be too pre-occupied doing the opposite. Sorry, but this is my observation from 30 odd years of experience at the Orthodox Church. Blessings
I bet you did not understand the language of the services, and the hymns and prayers, and the totality thereof, made no impact on your intellect.
As a seminarian I had to attend, for my sins, summer camp in a hadean clime cruelly situated at the sweltering feet of some cool alps. The nuns celebrated the Vigil of Dormition, all in Greek. They asked me afterwards how I enjoyed it. I told them plainly that I grasped not a word of the lengthy akolouths and was little improved by it. The kindly nun replied, “but surely you gained spiritual edification?” to which I responded, if I did I am not aware of any as it went clear past my ears unrecognized.”

Methinks this is you.
 

FULK NERA

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Is one defined as a Christian if he believes in Jesus being God? Where did it get it from, I don't think Bible gives such a criteria. About being a Judaiser... I think all of the apostles were then, including Paul since they kept Shabbat and Biblical feasts and ate clean food...
From Acts, ch. 10

9On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: 10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, 11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Thus ends all judaizing in the churches of Christ.
 

FULK NERA

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Ok, so when Jesus said it's not what goes into a man but what goes out he said before his resurrection so how clean food law was abolished at that point?
Oh please! For non-Hebrews there never was such a law. And there were no ‘Jews’ at that point in history. The term was coined well into the Christian Era to describe the Mesopotamian community that rejected Christ. St. Paul makes it clear in so many places, and Peter was corrected accordingly when he attempted to impose kosher laws on converts. It is clear that the new priesthood in Christ has no need to distinguish between Hebrews and gentiles, that such would be a stumbling block. God doesn’t need ‘Jews’. He desires we become his people, who like the Hebrews themselves, were gathered from scattered people of no particular description. This is the thrust of the Prophets’ preaching AGAINST Jerusalem. Do you need a Temple there too?
 
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From Acts, ch. 10

9On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: 10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, 11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Thus ends all judaizing in the churches of Christ.
The counter argument is it refers to the gentiles being made clean and not food.
 

TheTrisagion

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The reason you are all so distant from the Hebrew roots of Christianity is because early Catholic church did their best to remove themselves from its Jewish roots, unfortunately orthodoxy simply follows in Catholics foot steps. This is why it's so hard for a Jew to convert to Orthodoxy or Christianity in general. It's like a different religion to them where believers seem to adopt lawlessness, reject Biblical Feasts and Torah. MESSIAH WAS A JEW, but what is so Jewish about Orthodoxy?
Just so I get this straight because I honestly am rather curious about all this. The history of the Christian faith according to you, Jesus comes and is a good Jewish fellow, but definitely not God. Is like a demigod, or just a really good man? He dies (do you believe that He resurrects too?). Shortly after that, His followers destroy anything Jewish about Him and Christianity stays in this state of grossly misunderstanding of who Jesus is until the 20th century when your branch of Jews for Jesus figures it all out? How far back did this anti-Jewish purge start? Was it the disciples or people that came after them?
 

FULK NERA

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The counter argument is it refers to the gentiles being made clean and not food.
Yes it means kosher doesn’t matter, Peter doesn’t have to get anyone to be members of the Hebrew tribe because followers of Christ are beyond nationality. Judaizing is rejection of the new Covenant. St. Paul scolds churches all across the Mediterranean for this stuff.
 

andrewlya

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Oh please! For non-Hebrews there never was such a law. And there were no ‘Jews’ at that point in history. The term was coined well into the Christian Era to describe the Mesopotamian community that rejected Christ. St. Paul makes it clear in so many places, and Peter was corrected accordingly when he attempted to impose kosher laws on converts. It is clear that the new priesthood in Christ has no need to distinguish between Hebrews and gentiles, that such would be a stumbling block. God doesn’t need ‘Jews’. He desires we become his people, who like the Hebrews themselves, were gathered from scattered people of no particular description. This is the thrust of the Prophets’ preaching AGAINST Jerusalem. Do you need a Temple there too?
Well Jews wether they are Messianic or not, will not EAT pork or unclean food. I mean even the ones that accept the Messiah will only eat clean food. So gentiles are different they can pollute their bodies with swine and other dirty animals, because they can right? I hope you don't pray over the swine when you eat it next time.We shouldn't eat just because Christ would not it and he never did
 

andrewlya

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Anyway, I can't reply anymore because I've been warned already. Thanks for all your input guys/gals
 

andrewlya

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Just so I get this straight because I honestly am rather curious about all this. The history of the Christian faith according to you, Jesus comes and is a good Jewish fellow, but definitely not God. Is like a demigod, or just a really good man? He dies (do you believe that He resurrects too?). Shortly after that, His followers destroy anything Jewish about Him and Christianity stays in this state of grossly misunderstanding of who Jesus is until the 20th century when your branch of Jews for Jesus figures it all out? How far back did this anti-Jewish purge start? Was it the disciples or people that came after them?
Yes, I believe in resurrection of the Messiah. Blessings. Enjoy your discussion amongst yourselves.I really enjoyed talking to you all. Thank you
 
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Luke

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. .. So gentiles are different they can pollute their bodies with swine and other dirty animals, because they can right? I hope you don't pray over the swine when you eat it next time. . .
"For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude." 1 Timothy 4:4, New American Standard Bible
 

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Well Jews wether they are Messianic or not, will not EAT pork or unclean food. I mean even the ones that accept the Messiah will only eat clean food. So gentiles are different they can pollute their bodies with swine and other dirty animals, because they can right? I hope you don't pray over the swine when you eat it next time.We shouldn't eat just because Christ would not it and he never did
You do you the Jew. Pork is no more obnoxious than any other food, but by becoming a Jew you get to tell us how dirty our food is. Saracen-mindedness is very unbecoming of Christians. But then you aren’t a Christian because you prefer the Jewish Law.
 

Christos3

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To save people time. Posts from half of page two the one above this one have nothing to do with the title of the thread.
 

andrewlya

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To save people time. Posts from half of page two the one above this one have nothing to do with the title of the thread.
I kept asking people not to digress. I do not know why people need to go off the rail
 

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"For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude." 1 Timothy 4:4, New American Standard Bible
Jesus did not eat pork. We eat whatever is set before us with thanksgiving. I love bacon.
 

melkite

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Jesus did not eat pork. We eat whatever is set before us with thanksgiving. I love bacon.
The Slavs eat pork products for Pascha specifically in thanksgiving for the freedom from the old law that Christ's resurrection brings.

Pork, ham, bacon, Christ is Risen, nom nom nom!
 

LizaSymonenko

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Anyway, I can't reply anymore because I've been warned already. Thanks for all your input guys/gals
I kept asking people not to digress. I do not know why people need to go off the rail
....again... you play the poor victim. You most certainly CAN reply.

You were warned for having posted extensive articles, and not mere abbreviations with links to the originals as per the Forum Rules.

Do not blame the other posters for you getting warned.
 
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I have no idea where that winking imoje came from. I did not put it there. But it really fits nicely in the spot it appeared I must say.
I used to get that emoji in the original OC.net format.
 

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Speaking of pork...
I saw an amazing recipe using diced ham, shredded potatoes ( hashbrowns) eggs beaten with a few tablespoons of milk, grated cheese, chives, salt and pepper, mix all together and spread into a hot waffle iron that's been sprayed with oil. 5 minutes later dinner is served with a glass of milk!
Yummmm!
 

andrewlya

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The Slavs eat pork products for Pascha specifically in thanksgiving for the freedom from the old law that Christ's resurrection brings.

Pork, ham, bacon, Christ is Risen, nom nom nom!
This is so wrong, in Tanach Isralites would rather die than eat swine. I used to eat swine but it feels extremely wrong now, I avoid it.If God prohibits something it is for our own good. Even science shows that swine meat is very harmful for human consumption. If only you listened to what God commanded..Sometimes you come across as Protestants giving me similar justifications for breaking God's commandments.
 

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"For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude." 1 Timothy 4:4, New American Standard Bible
Do you mean you can eat all food? This verse doesn't refer that ALL god is good for you, is it? If this was the case,you may as well eat poisonous mushrooms or may eat a bit of Puffer Fish, it's good for you right?
 

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Do you mean you can eat all food? This verse doesn't refer that ALL god is good for you, is it? If this was the case,you may as well eat poisonous mushrooms or may eat a bit of Puffer Fish, it's good for you right?
Here's the full context from 1 Timothy 4:
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
 

andrewlya

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Here's the full context from 1 Timothy 4:
So why is a poison mushroom and a puffer fish food for you to eat?Why are poisonous foods that can kill you are good for you to eat?
 
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So why is a poison mushroom and a puffer fish food for you to eat?Why are poisonous foods that can kill you are good for you to eat?
Which meats are the heretics commanding to abstain from?
As to your question about poisonous food, "all things are lawful but not all things are beneficial."
 

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So why is a poison mushroom and a puffer fish food for you to eat?
All mushrooms are edible. Some are just edible only once.
Hence you won't eat them. God says not eat swine because it's bad for you. It's a dirty animal that eats everything and shouldn't be eaten by humans.
 

andrewlya

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Which meats are the heretics commanding to abstain from?
As to your question about poisonous food, "all things are lawful but not all things are beneficial."
If you say all food is good to eat, so would you eat food with blood in it,too?
 

andrewlya

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Here's the full context from 1 Timothy 4:
“Every creature of God is good and not to be refused if it be received with thanksgiving.” Since God did not sanctify unclean creatures to be eaten with thanksgiving, this verse refers to every clean creature. Unclean creatures are not considered food. The creatures that are to be received, having been “sanctified by the word of God,” can be found in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14. God instructs us to sanctify ourselves and to not defile ourselves by eating that which is unclean (Leviticus 11:44).
 
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If you say all food is good to eat, so would you eat food with blood in it,too?
No, because it's the only command retained in Acts 15 that is binding on Christians. However, this is because "the life is in the blood", and not because it's unclean in itself.

You didn't answer my question. Which meats were the false teachers in Timothy 4 saying to abstain from?
 

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Pork products, particularly liver, frequently carry hepatitis E, which can cause severe complications and even death in vulnerable populations
 
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