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Why is Orthodoxy a declining denomination?

Tzimis

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Eating pork is not a tradition, it is a Commandment ' And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. '- Leviticus 11 .
A tradition would be crossing yourself like Orthodox do, that's a tradition not a God's commandment.
Greeks and gentiles were released from the law. Thats the point your not getting.
 

Tzimis

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What do you think about when reading Romans 7?
 

FULK NERA

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Eating pork is not a tradition, it is a Commandment ' And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. '- Leviticus 11 .
A tradition would be crossing yourself like Orthodox do, that's a tradition not a God's commandment.
Ok, you are the best Jew in the whole world. You deserve an award for not eating pork.
 

andrewlya

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What do you think about when reading Romans 7?
Do not see a problem for Paul says :Romans 7:12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.'So, if the law is holy, righteous and good, what is the reason not to follow what is holy, righteous and good? Mind you, Paul also says this:'Do we, then, destroy the law through faith? God forbid: but we establish the law.'-Romans 3:31
 

Tzimis

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Yes the law is holy, but your missing the stairs for the cliff. All laws are basically guidelines and there objective is to keep us within boundaries. Following the laws to the letter, actually leads to sickness. Christ condemned the pharisees for using the law in perverting ways.
 

andrewlya

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Yes the law is holy, but your missing the stairs for the cliff. All laws are basically guidelines and there objective is to keep us within boundaries. Following the laws to the letter, actually leads to sickness. Christ condemned the pharisees for using the law in perverting ways.
Jesus was accusing the pharisees of following mad made laws and Talmudic traditions for he says:'You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.”-Mark 7:8. Paul says in Romans that had it not been for the law, we would not have known for a sin was. If you ignore the law, then you would go on to commit adultery, lie, kill etc laws are good because they give us life guidelines on how to live our lives according to God's purposes.
 

andrewlya

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Yes the law is holy, but your missing the stairs for the cliff. All laws are basically guidelines and there objective is to keep us within boundaries. Following the laws to the letter, actually leads to sickness. Christ condemned the pharisees for using the law in perverting ways.
By the way, I'm not promoting earning salvation doctrine. I believe that once we are saved and if we truly believe and love God we would naturally want to please Yahweh by being obedient to His commandments. Like a good child would want to be obedient to his parents, a good child of Yahweh would want to do the same but to his heavenly Parent, if I can put it this way.
 

andrewlya

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Ok, you are the best Jew in the whole world. You deserve an award for not eating pork.
I'm just glad you are learning something.
 

Tzimis

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By the way, I'm not promoting earning salvation doctrine. I believe that once we are saved and if we truly believe and love God we would naturally want to please Yahweh by being obedient to His commandments. Like a good child would want to be obedient to his parents, a good child of Yahweh would want to do the same but to his heavenly Parent, if I can put it this way.
This isn't what christianity is about though.
 

andrewlya

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Yes I learned here that Pharisees who publicly vaunt their exceeding correctness are still very much alive in the heretical sects pretending at Christianity.
Can I not share the Bible with you? Why are you so offended by it?
 

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There’s a complexity of reasons, one of them being it takes real commitment to become Orthodox. I imagine Orthodox don’t have those emotionallly charged spur of the moment conversions like at an alter call. It takes studying, patients, and nearly a year of discernment before you are fully embraced by the church. In today’s immediate gratification culture, that’s not easy for people.
To be clear, I’m not stating this reason like it’s a bad thing that needs to be fixed, it’s a very good thing that it takes that long to convert.

I also think Western Christians are almost completely ignorant of Eastern Christianity. How many evangelical Christians actually know about Ancestral Sin? Most people don’t realize that Orthodox provides something different from most other Christians.
 

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Can I not share the Bible with you? Why are you so offended by it?
The way you consistently abuse Holy Scripture here is appalling and shows bad faith. No argument is possible in these conditions - the only reason you continue here is to abuse Orthodox Christians because we aren’t judaizing like you.
 

biro

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Our church may decline and then grow, due to a phenomenon known as “population.” Some people have four kids, others have two, and so on. Others grow old and pass away. The cycle repeats.

In that way, we are no different from anyone else in the world.
 

andrewlya

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This isn't what christianity is about though.
This isn't what christianity is about though.
I hope Christianity is not about lawlessness because we know what Jesus says about that. And what's wrong with following God's laws whilst believing in Jesus's sacrifice?
 

andrewlya

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The way you consistently abuse Holy Scripture here is appalling and shows bad faith. No argument is possible in these conditions - the only reason you continue here is to abuse Orthodox Christians because we aren’t judaizing like you.
I'm not abusing anyone. How am I abusing anyone? Like I said if you are offended by me quoting Bible verses then it's your issue that you need to address
 

andrewlya

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Our church may decline and then grow, due to a phenomenon known as “population.” Some people have four kids, others have two, and so on. Others grow old and pass away. The cycle repeats.

In that way, we are no different from anyone else in the world.
Another reason would evangelising. I suppose Orthodoxy doesn't really believe in this? It's more you come to us if you won't, but we won't come necessarily to you?
 

FULK NERA

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I'm not abusing anyone. How am I abusing anyone? Like I said if you are offended by me quoting Bible verses then it's your issue that you need to address
The devil quotes scripture even better than you. You are abusing this forum and misquoting the Bible to support a heresy.
 

Tzimis

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I hope Christianity is not about lawlessness because we know what Jesus says about that. And what's wrong with following God's laws whilst believing in Jesus's sacrifice?
Im not aware of any Jew Christian church that survived past 300 ad.
Not including recent startups of course.
Knowledge, especially biblical, isn't something you pull out from the air.
Its handed down through succession.
 

FULK NERA

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Im not aware of any Jew Christian church that survived past 300 ad.
Not including recent startups of course.
Knowledge, especially biblical, isn't something you pull out from the air.
Its handed down through succession.
Even St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote extensively against judaizers in his letters on the way to his martyrdom in Rome, during Trajan’s reign before AD 117. To pretend that there is any continuing reliance on kosher laws among Christians after the first Palestinian generation is completely mistaken, u supportable by any knowledge of Christian history. Why is this judaizer still pestering us?
 

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Another reason would evangelising. I suppose Orthodoxy doesn't really believe in this? It's more you come to us if you won't, but we won't come necessarily to you?

untrue.... Orthodoxy even in the modern era has gone to many non traditionally orthodox places... and started evangelizing and churches in these places.

Jurisdictions send priests and groups all the time to places like Africa (not talking about Ethiopia here), the Philippines etc..

There is even the OCMC (https://www.ocmc.org) that also sends folks.


People say ' come to us' mainly about the US and Western world things, because Orthodoxy doesn't have large scale campaigns or 'revivals' or any of those sort of 'lets put on a show and hope you join us' things that mainstream groups in western countries do.

By no means does this equate to 'orthodox priests and lay folk are ignoring the people around them and not going to those in need, either spiritually or physically'. It just means that we demonstrate by our -lives- and not just our words, what we believe. Our money is where we choose not to open our mouths alone.
 

Tzimis

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Even St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote extensively against judaizers in his letters on the way to his martyrdom in Rome, during Trajan’s reign before AD 117. To pretend that there is any continuing reliance on kosher laws among Christians after the first Palestinian generation is completely mistaken, u supportable by any knowledge of Christian history. Why is this judaizer still pestering us?
The wording he uses is protestant most of the time. He probably believes that if he saves an Orthodox soul, he'll score brownie points with god.
I hope he isn't band. Maybe the pour soul will learn something.
 

Tzimis

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Another reason would evangelising. I suppose Orthodoxy doesn't really believe in this? It's more you come to us if you won't, but we won't come necessarily to you?
The church knows that most people that seek will find it.
Its not like nobody hasn't heard of Christ before.
It is after all the most successful franchise in history.
 

Deacon Lance

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I hope Christianity is not about lawlessness because we know what Jesus says about that. And what's wrong with following God's laws whilst believing in Jesus's sacrifice?
Even Jews did not think others had to follow their law. Only the seven Noahide Laws were considering binding on all peoples. The Council of Jerusalem recorded in the Acts of the Apostles Ch 15 affirms the same:

“5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us; 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

12 And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13 After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brethren, listen to me. 14 Symeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, as it is written,

16 ‘After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the dwelling of David, which has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will set it up,
17 that the rest of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
18 says the Lord, who has made these things known from of old.’
19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the pollutions of idols and from unchastity and from what is strangled and from blood.
 

andrewlya

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The devil quotes scripture even better than you. You are abusing this forum and misquoting the Bible to support a heresy.
The devil does not promote the Word of God, but I do. It's a shame that you don't like it
 

andrewlya

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Even St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote extensively against judaizers in his letters on the way to his martyrdom in Rome, during Trajan’s reign before AD 117. To pretend that there is any continuing reliance on kosher laws among Christians after the first Palestinian generation is completely mistaken, u supportable by any knowledge of Christian history. Why is this judaizer still pestering us?
There was a lot of antisemitism back then as it is now, this explains why early Christianity, mainly Catholics, did their best to remove Hebrew roots from Christianity. This explains why modern day Christianity is not very appealing to a Jewish person, even to a Messianic. I understand it now. Maybe one day you will, too.God wills.
 

andrewlya

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The wording he uses is protestant most of the time. He probably believes that if he saves an Orthodox soul, he'll score brownie points with god.
I hope he isn't band. Maybe the pour soul will learn something.
Which wording am I using that is protestant? I'm certainly not one of them.
 

Tzimis

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Which wording am I using that is protestant? I'm certainly not one of them.
There are multiple protestants denominations that don't believe christ is god.
And since your church is a resent startup with no roots over time.
Thats how its classified.
 
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There was a lot of antisemitism back then as it is now, this explains why early Christianity, mainly Catholics, did their best to remove Hebrew roots from Christianity. This explains why modern day Christianity is not very appealing to a Jewish person, even to a Messianic. I understand it now. Maybe one day you will, too.God wills.
St. Ignatius literally met the Apostle John as a child and was taught by st. Polycarp, who was a student of John. So he's both a primary and secondary witness to the apostle John. Please explain how St. Ignatius was a Catholic and anti semite making up his beliefs when he knew the apostles and their friends.
 

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Is one defined as a Christian if he believes in Jesus being God? Where did it get it from, I don't think Bible gives such a criteria. About being a Judaiser... I think all of the apostles were then, including Paul since they kept Shabbat and Biblical feasts and ate clean food...
You have rejected fundamental Truth and with your rejecting the Holy Trinity you are blind. No amount of reasoning will enlighten you.
 

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Just to note I'm not a sabellian. Arian theology makes sense, yes.
Hope this answers your question.


Text of article removed and replaced with a link and preview. --Ainnir
You are far from the Truth and promote lies and heresy.
 

andrewlya

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You have rejected fundamental Truth and with your rejecting the Holy Trinity you are blind. No amount of reasoning will enlighten you.
Trinity talk gets me into trouble here, but I'll ask one question. Do you have a verse that says one must believe in Trinity to be saved?
 

andrewlya

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You are far from the Truth and promote lies and heresy.
Ok, that's your opinion. One man's truth another man's heresy
 

andrewlya

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St. Ignatius literally met the Apostle John as a child and was taught by st. Polycarp, who was a student of John. So he's both a primary and secondary witness to the apostle John. Please explain how St. Ignatius was a Catholic and anti semite making up his beliefs when he knew the apostles and their friends.
You need to look at early church history and particularly Catholicism. Catholics have a lot to answer for for removing themselves from the Hebrew roots of Christianity. I'm not even blaming Orthodxy for this. Had the early church kept its Hebrew roots mindset, we would have kept Torah and still accept Jesus as our Messiah and the Son of God, who had sacrificed his life so we have a chance to be saved. Like I say Christianity to a Jew is a foreign religion because it rejects everything Jewish even though Christianity is meant to be a Jewish sect. And then you wonder why Jews reject Christianity and Christianity Jews.
 
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You need to look at early church history and particularly Catholicism. Catholics have a lot to answer for for removing themselves from the Hebrew roots of Christianity. I'm not even blaming Orthodxy for this. Had the early church kept its Hebrew roots mindset, we would have kept Torah and still accept Jesus as our Messiah and the Son of God, who had sacrificed his life so we have a chance to be saved. Like I say Christianity to a Jew is a foreign religion because it rejects everything Jewish even though Christianity is meant to be a Jewish sect. And then you wonder why Jews reject Christianity and Christianity Jews.
You didn't answer my question. I am the one looking at early church history.

St. Ignatius knew the apostles and their friends, yet he condemned the judaizing sects. That's church history. Explain it.

Judaism is a false religion that rejects Jesus as Messiah and Lord. They don't even follow their own law (they don't have temple sacrifices which is the entire basis of the Old Covenant) and God has rejected them (see romans 8 and 9) because they are disbelievers. In the gospels Jesus says the Pharisees (who the jews get their doctrine from to this day) are snakes and deceivers and sons of the devil. Jesus says in Revelation that they are the synagogue of Satan. Christians and Jews of the current age have nothing to do with each other. This isn't anti semitism, it's just a fact that Jews have a false religion that is enabled by demons just like any other false religion.

Trinity talk gets me into trouble here, but I'll ask one question. Do you have a verse that says one must believe in Trinity to be saved?
In John 8: Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM HE, you will die in your sins.
Same chapter where Jesus said "before Abraham was, I AM".

The Holy Spirit: For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.


If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.

Who deserves worship and glory? The Spirit. Who deserves worship and glory? YHWH.
 

andrewlya

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You didn't answer my question. I am the one looking at early church history.

St. Ignatius knew the apostles and their friends, yet he condemned the judaizing sects. That's church history. Explain it.

Judaism is a false religion that rejects Jesus as Messiah and Lord. They don't even follow their own law (they don't have temple sacrifices which is the entire basis of the Old Covenant) and God has rejected them (see romans 8 and 9) because they are disbelievers. In the gospels Jesus says the Pharisees (who the jews get their doctrine from to this day) are snakes and deceivers and sons of the devil. Jesus says in Revelation that they are the synagogue of Satan. Christians and Jews of the current age have nothing to do with each other. This isn't anti semitism, it's just a fact that Jews have a false religion that is enabled by demons just like any other false religion.



In John 8: Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM HE, you will die in your sins.
Same chapter where Jesus said "before Abraham was, I AM".

The Holy Spirit: For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.


If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.

Who deserves worship and glory? The Spirit. Who deserves worship and glory? YHWH.
Just to let you know that this thread will get locked if we continue on the Trinity. Please can you PM me if you want to discuss it? All I can say is that none of these verses teach one must believe in Trinity to be saved. I'd expect verses like "believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and you will be saved" or "if you accept Trinity as your lord and savior you will be saved". There is not anything like that. I'm sorry it's not convincing. The Bible says that God is Spirit and Jesus says this: Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is Spirit,and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”- John 4. I would expect the Bible to say something like this 'the true worshippers will worship the Trinity or 3 divine persons in on essence'. Sorry can't find such a verse. Anyway, I won't reply anything in relation to Trinity now. PM if you want to discuss further.

In relation to Judaisers, it is those people who are followers of Talmud and put their man made laws above the sacrifice of the Messiah Jesus. I don't believe Judaisers are those who follow Biblical laws of God, Jesus says
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments:...' Luke 10. If you believe there is a contradiction in teachings between Jesus and Paul (Jesus taught law and Paul didn't, which is not the case anyway) , I side with Jesus because Jesus is the Messiah.
 

biro

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For the kazillionth time:



Matthew 28:19
King James Version



19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
 
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