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Women’s Headcoverings

Alxandra

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I would love to see this more in our western churches :)
Do young women in your churches wear head coverings?


"What is the Scriptural and Patristic evidence for this tradition, and why is it important?"
https://theorthodoxlife.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/womens-headcoverings/
 

Agabus

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HEADCOVERS!

EVERYONE TAKE A SHOT!
 

kelly

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Here's one for the OC.net bingo card!

Seriously though, the majority of women at my parish wear some sort of covering - both young and old.
 

Alxandra

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kelly said:
Here's one for the OC.net bingo card!

Seriously though, the majority of women at my parish wear some sort of covering - both young and old.
That's wonderful :)
 

Arachne

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Alxandra said:
I would love to see this more in our western churches :)
Do young women in your churches wear head coverings?
Nope. Nor old ones, for that matter. :)
 

vamrat

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A significant number at our church do.  I keep a few wrapped around my arm under the sticharion for those that want to commune and didn't wear one.
 

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Alxandra said:
Nope. Nor old ones, for that matter. :)
Ohh why do you think that is? Some churches I visit all the women wear it and some churches none do..I don't know why though. Perhaps the tradition faded in some places but I hope that's not true. 
 

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vamrat said:
A significant number at our church do.  I keep a few wrapped around my arm under the sticharion for those that want to commune and didn't wear one.
That is nice of you :)
 

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Alxandra said:
Alxandra said:
Nope. Nor old ones, for that matter. :)
Ohh why do you think that is? Some churches I visit all the women wear it and some churches none do..I don't know why though. Perhaps the tradition faded in some places but I hope that's not true.
If the whole of my experience was the churches I have attended, I'd say such a tradition never existed. Over 4 decades in Greece, the only women who covered were village yiayias who covered full-time anyway. No one, and I mean no one, regardless of age, put on a scarf for church.
 

Alxandra

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Alxandra said:
If the whole of my experience was the churches I have attended, I'd say such a tradition never existed. Over 4 decades in Greece, the only women who covered were village yiayias who covered full-time anyway. No one, and I mean no one, regardless of age, put on a scarf for church.
I lived in Greece as well and I understand what you mean, in some churches they have stopped wearing them. In the villages though I still saw many young women wearing headcoverings. I hope all women start wearing them again, all traditions are important.
 

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In the Orthodox churches here in Southern California, yes, and some of them like the Syriac Orthodox, the Assyrians, ROCOR and the Copts keep baskets of headscarves for women to use who show up without them.  I'm not making this up; my mother has availed herself of this faculty on occasion and much appreciated it.  Of course many of the young women wear them loosely for most of the service, and then tighten it up when approaching for Holy Communion, which I have to say I find a turn on.  In fact these scarves in general, especially when worn in the Russian manner, are aesthetically pleasing, perhaps distractingly so, but only in the church.  I would not want to live in a Muslim country and never see the hair of a woman who wasn't a member of my household.

For that matter, I believe the lovely hats English ladies traditionally wear to church, such as were seen in abundance at the last Roual a Wedding, are an acceptable head covering.  Mandating headscarves is reading between the lines IMO.  If so one turns up to an Orthodox parish dressed like Her Majesty Queen Elisabeth II when she is out of doors, with a suitably conservative and graceful hat, they are IMO appropriately dressed to receive the Eucharist.  But that is my laymans opinion and it's for the bishop to make the call, and if the bishop mandates scarves then that's not a problem for me.  But I do think our mission in the west could be aided by a "posh hat or scarf" policy.  What I think we need to avoid is the impression that we force these things on our women, when it's an article of faith, and we don't want our society to be like the Islamic world, like Afghanistan where women are completely obscured and rendered almost helpless by the Burkha.
 

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wgw said:
In the Orthodox churches here in Southern California, yes, and some of them like the Syriac Orthodox, the Assyrians, ROCOR and the Copts keep baskets of headscarves for women to use who show up without them.  I'm not making this up; my mother has availed herself of this faculty on occasion and much appreciated it.  Of course many of the young women wear them loosely for most of the service, and then tighten it up when approaching for Holy Communion, which I have to say I find a turn on.  In fact these scarves in general, especially when worn in the Russian manner, are aesthetically pleasing, perhaps distractingly so, but only in the church.  I would not want to live in a Muslim country and never see the hair of a woman who wasn't a member of my household.

For that matter, I believe the lovely hats English ladies traditionally wear to church, such as were seen in abundance at the last Roual a Wedding, are an acceptable head covering.  Mandating headscarves is reading between the lines IMO.  If so one turns up to an Orthodox parish dressed like Her Majesty Queen Elisabeth II when she is out of doors, with a suitably conservative and graceful hat, they are IMO appropriately dressed to receive the Eucharist.  But that is my laymans opinion and it's for the bishop to make the call, and if the bishop mandates scarves then that's not a problem for me.  But I do think our mission in the west could be aided by a "posh hat or scarf" policy.  What I think we need to avoid is the impression that we force these things on our women, when it's an article of faith, and we don't want our society to be like the Islamic world, like Afghanistan where women are completely obscured and rendered almost helpless by the Burkha.
Yes, it is to be worn for church, a monastery or praying :) We don't have to cover our hair at all times. I agree, it definitely should not be forced but I am praying more young women chose to.
 

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It wasn't so many generations ago that no woman in America would be seen in church bareheaded (and no man would be seen indoors in a hat).

My mother and sisters wear a very specific style, like this:

 

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That's lovely Porter :)

I find lace ones very beautiful


 

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Alxandra said:
Alxandra said:
If the whole of my experience was the churches I have attended, I'd say such a tradition never existed. Over 4 decades in Greece, the only women who covered were village yiayias who covered full-time anyway. No one, and I mean no one, regardless of age, put on a scarf for church.
I lived in Greece as well and I understand what you mean, in some churches they have stopped wearing them. In the villages though I still saw many young women wearing headcoverings. I hope all women start wearing them again, all traditions are important.
Most parishes in ROCOR still encourage head covering. However, whenever I visited the two ROCOR parishes in Los Angeles between 1996 to 2009, if a woman did not wear a headcovering, nothing was said, but in the Narthex, there was always a basket filled with scarves, and there were wrap around skirts nicely folded in a hutch or hanging up on the walls. Older women would lead a woman to the narthex and point to the skirts if a woman were to wear pants. For some reason, wearing a skirt was more important than a headcovering. :)

I am wondering if the young women you saw in some of the villages of Greece were members of the Genuine Church of Greece which still encourages head coverings.
 

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Maria said:
I am wondering if the young women you saw in some of the villages of Greece were members of the Genuine Church of Greece which still encourages head coverings.
The vast majority of Old Calendarist communities are urban affairs.
 

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If I were a woman I would wear a headcovering.  But I am not, so I don't.  And that is as far as my voice goes on the issue.

Having said that my church is probably split 50/50 and neither side seems bothered by the other in the least.
 

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Sorry to objectify women, but doesn't a headscarf make a girl soooooo much more attractive, or is that just me?

 

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jobin219 said:
Sorry to objectify women, but doesn't a headscarf make a girl soooooo much more attractive, or is that just me?
Thankfully it is just you (not saying it makes them ugly of course) or we might have to discuss if one of the purposes of headcoverings has now flipped in our modern times  ???
 

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The ladies in the choir tend to wear them consistently.  Everyone else....maybe <25% of the women.  I went to Salutations at the GOA parish last night and not one woman wore one.
 

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Maria said:
Alxandra said:
Alxandra said:
If the whole of my experience was the churches I have attended, I'd say such a tradition never existed. Over 4 decades in Greece, the only women who covered were village yiayias who covered full-time anyway. No one, and I mean no one, regardless of age, put on a scarf for church.
I lived in Greece as well and I understand what you mean, in some churches they have stopped wearing them. In the villages though I still saw many young women wearing headcoverings. I hope all women start wearing them again, all traditions are important.
Most parishes in ROCOR still encourage head covering. However, whenever I visited the two ROCOR parishes in Los Angeles between 1996 to 2009, if a woman did not wear a headcovering, nothing was said, but in the Narthex, there was always a basket filled with scarves, and there were wrap around skirts nicely folded in a hutch or hanging up on the walls. Older women would lead a woman to the narthex and point to the skirts if a woman were to wear pants. For some reason, wearing a skirt was more important than a headcovering. :)

I am wondering if the young women you saw in some of the villages of Greece were members of the Genuine Church of Greece which still encourages head coverings.
I've never understood the pants vs skirts thing.  People do realize that at the time of Christ pretty much nobody with any respect wore pants.  The Romans saw it as a sign of barbarism though they were eventually adopted as the empire expanded. And in the Mediterranean regions where trousers first appeared in the 6th century BC they were worn by both sexes.  The use of skirts by women and pants by men didn't occur until long after biblical times.
 

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SOme ladies wear skirts/dresses, others wear pants.  NBD.
 

vamrat

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It has been important for men to wear pants since the Germans are the new chosen people.
 

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I think Augustin posted once about how he saw an group of American converts visiting Romania. The young single women and girls were wearing headscarves in church, which caused a bit of a scandal (as this implied they were marking themselves out as non-virgins).
 

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homedad76 said:
Maria said:
Alxandra said:
Alxandra said:
If the whole of my experience was the churches I have attended, I'd say such a tradition never existed. Over 4 decades in Greece, the only women who covered were village yiayias who covered full-time anyway. No one, and I mean no one, regardless of age, put on a scarf for church.
I lived in Greece as well and I understand what you mean, in some churches they have stopped wearing them. In the villages though I still saw many young women wearing headcoverings. I hope all women start wearing them again, all traditions are important.
Most parishes in ROCOR still encourage head covering. However, whenever I visited the two ROCOR parishes in Los Angeles between 1996 to 2009, if a woman did not wear a headcovering, nothing was said, but in the Narthex, there was always a basket filled with scarves, and there were wrap around skirts nicely folded in a hutch or hanging up on the walls. Older women would lead a woman to the narthex and point to the skirts if a woman were to wear pants. For some reason, wearing a skirt was more important than a headcovering. :)

I am wondering if the young women you saw in some of the villages of Greece were members of the Genuine Church of Greece which still encourages head coverings.
I've never understood the pants vs skirts thing.  People do realize that at the time of Christ pretty much nobody with any respect wore pants.  The Romans saw it as a sign of barbarism though they were eventually adopted as the empire expanded. And in the Mediterranean regions where trousers first appeared in the 6th century BC they were worn by both sexes.  The use of skirts by women and pants by men didn't occur until long after biblical times.
It's simple -- traditions in Orthodox lands aren't concerned with this type of reductionist what-would-St.-Paul-say thinking, an obsession of the modern West. They know what the grandmothers did, and that's in what their faith lies.
 

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Porter ODoran said:
homedad76 said:
Maria said:
Alxandra said:
Alxandra said:
If the whole of my experience was the churches I have attended, I'd say such a tradition never existed. Over 4 decades in Greece, the only women who covered were village yiayias who covered full-time anyway. No one, and I mean no one, regardless of age, put on a scarf for church.
I lived in Greece as well and I understand what you mean, in some churches they have stopped wearing them. In the villages though I still saw many young women wearing headcoverings. I hope all women start wearing them again, all traditions are important.
Most parishes in ROCOR still encourage head covering. However, whenever I visited the two ROCOR parishes in Los Angeles between 1996 to 2009, if a woman did not wear a headcovering, nothing was said, but in the Narthex, there was always a basket filled with scarves, and there were wrap around skirts nicely folded in a hutch or hanging up on the walls. Older women would lead a woman to the narthex and point to the skirts if a woman were to wear pants. For some reason, wearing a skirt was more important than a headcovering. :)

I am wondering if the young women you saw in some of the villages of Greece were members of the Genuine Church of Greece which still encourages head coverings.
I've never understood the pants vs skirts thing.  People do realize that at the time of Christ pretty much nobody with any respect wore pants.  The Romans saw it as a sign of barbarism though they were eventually adopted as the empire expanded. And in the Mediterranean regions where trousers first appeared in the 6th century BC they were worn by both sexes.  The use of skirts by women and pants by men didn't occur until long after biblical times.
It's simple -- traditions in Orthodox lands aren't concerned with this type of reductionist what-would-St.-Paul-say thinking, an obsession of the modern West. They know what the grandmothers did, and that's in what their faith lies.
So that's why the Priest took his spiritual child to the warlock for advice?
 

Porter ODoran

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^^ You might want to become aware that not every man wearing black and calling himself your daddy is spiritually trustworthy, Norman.
 

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Porter ODoran said:
^^ You might want to become aware that not every man wearing black and calling himself your daddy is spiritually trustworthy, Norman.
Keep hanging around, what else do you have to do after all? You'll get the finer points eventually and stop embarrassing yourself.
 

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I think it's someone who does get your finer points that should start to feel embarrassed. Troll posts on OC.net aren't fine wine.
 

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Alxandra said:
I hope all women start wearing them again, all traditions are important.
so do you take a bath only in the end of 4 major fasts? Yuck.

Alxandra said:
I find lace ones very beautiful
I thought the point of headcoverings was about modesty, not about looking beautiful.

Maria said:
but in the Narthex, there was always a basket filled with scarves, and there were wrap around skirts nicely folded in a hutch or hanging up on the walls. Older women would lead a woman to the narthex and point to the skirts if a woman were to wear pants. For some reason, wearing a skirt was more important than a headcovering. :)
say hello to your new flea, louse or scaby buddies.
 

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mike said:
Alxandra said:
I hope all women start wearing them again, all traditions are important.
so do you take a bath only in the end of 4 major fasts? Yuck.
Maria said:
but in the Narthex, there was always a basket filled with scarves, and there were wrap around skirts nicely folded in a hutch or hanging up on the walls. Older women would lead a woman to the narthex and point to the skirts if a woman were to wear pants. For some reason, wearing a skirt was more important than a headcovering. :)
say hello to your new flea, louse or scaby buddies.
Both points made me laugh heartily.

Especially with the shared headscarves, there's no guarantee that they're laundered after each use.
 

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The point of head covering is modesty but many young women these days do not like them and think they are only for old ladies,  so I try to post them and show their beauty. Modesty is beautiful :)

And it is recommended that women do wear skirts and dresses. Many elders say a woman wearing a dress, shyness, blushing, and other feminine qualities are a blessing from God and it is not good for women to dress like men or act like men.
 

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vamrat said:
It has been important for men to wear pants since the Germans are the new chosen people.
Godwin's Law in 5, 4,3...
 

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Alxandra said:
The point of head covering is modesty but many young women these days do not like them and think they are only for old ladies,  so I try to post them and show their beauty. Modesty is beautiful :)

And it is recommended that women do wear skirts and dresses. Many elders say a woman wearing a dress, shyness, blushing, and other feminine qualities are a blessing from God and it is not good for women to dress like men or act like men.
But who determines what it is to 'dress like men'?
 

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kelly said:
Alxandra said:
The point of head covering is modesty but many young women these days do not like them and think they are only for old ladies,  so I try to post them and show their beauty. Modesty is beautiful :)

And it is recommended that women do wear skirts and dresses. Many elders say a woman wearing a dress, shyness, blushing, and other feminine qualities are a blessing from God and it is not good for women to dress like men or act like men.
But who determines what it is to 'dress like men'?
Well we have many examples like Panagia that covered her head and her personality is also an example for women. If elders of our church say that wearing skirts and dresses is what is good for women I trust their wisdom. There's a video of an elder speaking about this I am trying to find it, I will post it if I do :)
 

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I'm just saying, fashion isn't a permanent thing. Christ or the Apostles would not have worn pants.
 

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Alxandra said:
I would love to see this more in our western churches :)
Do young women in your churches wear head coverings?


"What is the Scriptural and Patristic evidence for this tradition, and why is it important?"
https://theorthodoxlife.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/womens-headcoverings/
In the church i have seen 1 or 2 young woman and the church is full of people.
 

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kelly said:
I'm just saying, fashion isn't a permanent thing. Christ or the Apostles would not have worn pants.
I hear you saying that you wish more men would follow the Apostolic imperative of kilts.
 

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Alxandra said:
I would love to see this more in our western churches :)
Do young women in your churches wear head coverings?


"What is the Scriptural and Patristic evidence for this tradition, and why is it important?"
https://theorthodoxlife.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/womens-headcoverings/
Just a few, and it includes the older women. And if a woman wear head covering at my parish, she's usually an immigrant from Ukraine or something like that (and even some of them don't do it). There was a girl half Ukrainian half Azerbaijan that used to attend my parish and she was wearing head covering; the effect - she was drawing attention of most people, especially that her long dark hair was still visible, and her covering was very colorful (but she is a strong defender of head coverings).

As for me, I do not wear it, only for the foot pilgrimages, as it's just useful. I wear skirt/dresses only for Liturgies (precisely, when I take the Holy Communion), as that's what my priest told me. Frankly speaking, I don't understand it fully, but as it has helped me generally to start wearing skirt/dresses (I used to wear them once a few years) that's very good in men's eyes (God's eyes too, I hope), I do it.
Interestingly, in Serbia in vast majority of the churches the head coverings are not required and even priest laugh at the topic, but skirts are very welcomed (above I was talking about Warsaw).

I remember I've just once regreted not putting on my head a scarf: when I was at the Sunday Liturgy in a village in Moldova, as there was only me (and another girl from our Polish Orthodox group) without any head scarf in the church, and, generally in the village, as there women put off the covering only at home. And a one very old lady, wearing a very thick glasses, asked me in something like Russian if I was from Chisinau (the capital of Moldova) that I didn't wear head scarf to the church :laugh:

kelly said:
I'm just saying, fashion isn't a permanent thing. Christ or the Apostles would not have worn pants.
+1
 
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