Women’s Headcoverings

[kelly]

I'm just saying, fashion isn't a permanent thing. Christ or the Apostles would not have worn pants.

I hear you saying that you wish more men would follow the Apostolic imperative of kilts.

Well, SOME men anyway. 

 

[Porter ODoran]

I'm just saying, fashion isn't a permanent thing. Christ or the Apostles would not have worn pants.

Still, it wouldn't hurt for us to examine why our fashions change. What is the impetus? If priests in Romania really do laugh at the traditional headgear for women, why? What's changed the minds there? Could it have been Communist pressure? Or present sensitiveness to the opinions of Central Europe? If so, does the change in fashion, the change in minds, say anything about the spirit?

 

[homedad76]

I'm just saying, fashion isn't a permanent thing. Christ or the Apostles would not have worn pants.

I hear you saying that you wish more men would follow the Apostolic imperative of kilts.

Toga!  Toga!  Toga!

 

[NicholasMyra]

What's changed the minds there?

Or, perhaps, what historical revisionism made us think that they once thought otherwise?

 

[Porter ODoran]

What's changed the minds there?

Or, perhaps, what historical revisionism made us think that they once thought otherwise?

Oh goodie! Nicholas is going to save us from the intellectual abuse that Eastern Europe has had traditional dress.

 

[andrewlya]

I would love to see this more in our western churches
Do young women in your churches wear head coverings?


"What is the Scriptural and Patristic evidence for this tradition, and why is it important?"
https://theorthodoxlife.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/womens-headcoverings/

I like prefer when women wear head scarves in a Church.
When I go to Russian Orthodox here in England almost all women wear a head scarf, it is Biblically correct.


1 Corinthians 11:3–16
"3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife1 is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife2 who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6"

 

[andrewlya]

Nope. Nor old ones, for that matter.

Ohh why do you think that is? Some churches I visit all the women wear it and some churches none do..I don't know why though. Perhaps the tradition faded in some places but I hope that's not true.

I think the only Churches in which women don't wear head scarves are Catholics and Protestants, in majority Orthodox Churches women wear it...although, in my Greek Church majority don't but in Russian Orthodox majority do..Ive not seen women wear it at Catholics or Protestants Churches not even once...

 

[Maria]

I hope all women start wearing them again, all traditions are important.

so do you take a bath only in the end of 4 major fasts? Yuck.

I find lace ones very beautiful

I thought the point of headcoverings was about modesty, not about looking beautiful.

but in the Narthex, there was always a basket filled with scarves, and there were wrap around skirts nicely folded in a hutch or hanging up on the walls. Older women would lead a woman to the narthex and point to the skirts if a woman were to wear pants. For some reason, wearing a skirt was more important than a headcovering.

say hello to your new flea, louse or scaby buddies.

Thankfully, they have a laundry basket where all the used scarves and skirts are placed.
And yes, fleas, lice, and scabies are epidemic in Los Angeles, especially in county mental facilities and in homes for the elderly, but few talk about it. One of my friends was studying to work with the sick and elderly, and she was told to be very observant of any signs of scabies. It is no longer just an STD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scabies

 

[Maria]

Nope. Nor old ones, for that matter.

Ohh why do you think that is? Some churches I visit all the women wear it and some churches none do..I don't know why though. Perhaps the tradition faded in some places but I hope that's not true.

I think the only Churches in which women don't wear head scarves are Catholics and Protestants, in majority Orthodox Churches women wear it...although, in my Greek Church majority don't but in Russian Orthodox majority do..Ive not seen women wear it at Catholics or Protestants Churches not even once...

Protestants such as the Mennonites still observing covering.

Traditional Catholics who belong to the SSPX also wear head coverings.

 

[biro]

I would love to see this more in our western churches
Do young women in your churches wear head coverings?


"What is the Scriptural and Patristic evidence for this tradition, and why is it important?"
https://theorthodoxlife.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/womens-headcoverings/

I like prefer when women wear head scarves in a Church.
When I go to Russian Orthodox here in England almost all women wear a head scarf, it is Biblically correct.


1 Corinthians 11:3–16
"3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife1 is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife2 who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6"

Not every woman is married.

If you start walking up to other guys and saying, "Excuse me, but your wife should...," the next thing that happens may be a knuckle sandwich. The same goes if you try this little lecture on unmarried strangers. If nobody was asking you, maybe you ought to keep it to yourself.

 

[wgw]

I hope all women start wearing them again, all traditions are important.

so do you take a bath only in the end of 4 major fasts? Yuck.

I find lace ones very beautiful

I thought the point of headcoverings was about modesty, not about looking beautiful.

but in the Narthex, there was always a basket filled with scarves, and there were wrap around skirts nicely folded in a hutch or hanging up on the walls. Older women would lead a woman to the narthex and point to the skirts if a woman were to wear pants. For some reason, wearing a skirt was more important than a headcovering.

say hello to your new flea, louse or scaby buddies.

Bathing had a different context when that canon was written.

Modesty has become so rare in our perverse generation that Orthodox women wearing headscarves and dressing modestly make themselves very attractive.  Fabio Leite did a thread which proved this, but had to be shut down because of too many problems with trolling.  But I find that the spiritual beauty of wearing headscarves outshines the physical attractiveness a lace headscarf conveys.  However it is perhaps for this reason why I advocate zOrthodox parishes encourage women to wear modest hats of the sort favored by Her Majesty Queen Elisabeth II.  These are more modest, more traditionally Western and less aesthetically pleasing to me at least, so I as a man am less likely to be distracted.  Bonnets of the old fashioned variety would also work.  But I am more than fine with the lace headscarves, but this is perhaps why I might make a lousy monk or bishop, since the sight of the young ladies straightening their scarves before approaching the chalice charms me so much.  Even were I a priest Id need to be careful, otherwise I might be like "Uh serva..err...handmaiden...of..uh". 

This is also why it's good that our priests get married before ordination.  As that has to help.

Speaking of lice, my mother has never suffered that or anything of the sort from the use of the basket of auxiliary headscarves.  And believe it or not the ladies of the parishes do wash them.  And I'm sure if a lice epidemic broke out at a neighborhood school additional measures would be taken.  One might as well freak out about picking up germs from the antidoron; I believe the priest does bless these headscarves like everything else in the church.  They are technically holy, being set aside for ecclesiastical service.

 

[biro]

You've sure got lots of ideas!  :

 

[wgw]

I would love to see this more in our western churches
Do young women in your churches wear head coverings?


"What is the Scriptural and Patristic evidence for this tradition, and why is it important?"
https://theorthodoxlife.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/womens-headcoverings/

I like prefer when women wear head scarves in a Church.
When I go to Russian Orthodox here in England almost all women wear a head scarf, it is Biblically correct.


1 Corinthians 11:3–16
"3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife1 is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife2 who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6"

Not every woman is married.

If you start walking up to other guys and saying, "Excuse me, but your wife should...," the next thing that happens may be a knuckle sandwich. The same goes if you try this little lecture on unmarried strangers. If nobody was asking you, maybe you ought to keep it to yourself.

I don't believe Andrew or Alexandra have it in mind to lecture the young ladies of the parish on this.  That's the job of the clergy.  And if a priest gets a knuckle sandwich for piously doing his job, that's considered a great honor, for blessed are you when they persecute you for the sake of Our Lord, and other verses.

 

[sakura95]

Nope. Nor old ones, for that matter.

Ohh why do you think that is? Some churches I visit all the women wear it and some churches none do..I don't know why though. Perhaps the tradition faded in some places but I hope that's not true.

I think the only Churches in which women don't wear head scarves are Catholics and Protestants, in majority Orthodox Churches women wear it...although, in my Greek Church majority don't but in Russian Orthodox majority do..Ive not seen women wear it at Catholics or Protestants Churches not even once...

I've seen women wear headscarves in Catholic Churches before though it's very rare. It's usually the elderly or the nuns that wear them.

Oh, at the Greek Parish I attended, nobody wear headscarves.

 

[Volnutt]

Does a brief headscarf that still lets you see the hair really convey the spirit of what they were doing in the Patristic age, though?

I was under the impression that Jewish and Christian women pretty much covered their entire heads (and not just in Church), in other words what Orthodox nuns do now.

I really don't think that would be feasible in today's world.

And while we're at it, maybe we should be asking the question as to why men who happen to be bishops get to cover their heads in Church and whether that portion of the Pauline injunction has been violated with good enough reason.

 

[Porter ODoran]

I think the only Churches in which women don't wear head scarves are Catholics and Protestants ...

Putting aside for a moment that that would be the vast bulk of churches ... It is traditional to cover the head in church in Catholic and Protestant circles, and, except maybe in England, people did so up until about the '60s.

 

[biro]

I would love to see this more in our western churches
Do young women in your churches wear head coverings?


"What is the Scriptural and Patristic evidence for this tradition, and why is it important?"
https://theorthodoxlife.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/womens-headcoverings/

I like prefer when women wear head scarves in a Church.
When I go to Russian Orthodox here in England almost all women wear a head scarf, it is Biblically correct.


1 Corinthians 11:3–16
"3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife1 is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife2 who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6"

Not every woman is married.

If you start walking up to other guys and saying, "Excuse me, but your wife should...," the next thing that happens may be a knuckle sandwich. The same goes if you try this little lecture on unmarried strangers. If nobody was asking you, maybe you ought to keep it to yourself.

I don't believe Andrew or Alexandra have it in mind to lecture the young ladies of the parish on this.  That's the job of the clergy.  And if a priest gets a knuckle sandwich for piously doing his job, that's considered a great honor, for blessed are you when they persecute you for the sake of Our Lord, and other verses.

Andrewlya is a non-Trinitarian. I don't care what he says.

Also, you are not a priest.

 

[hecma925]

Modesty has become so rare in our perverse generation that Orthodox women wearing headscarves and dressing modestly make themselves very attractive.  Fabio Leite did a thread which proved this, but had to be shut down because of too many problems with trolling.

LOL, you were busy looking at the pictures.

 

[Porter ODoran]

It is Biblically correct.

I'm so fascinated by these posts that seem to float in from another, non-Orthodox forum.

 

[andrewlya]

The point of head covering is modesty but many young women these days do not like them and think they are only for old ladies,  so I try to post them and show their beauty. Modesty is beautiful

And it is recommended that women do wear skirts and dresses. Many elders say a woman wearing a dress, shyness, blushing, and other feminine qualities are a blessing from God and it is not good for women to dress like men or act like men.

Spot on!
Unless you are a lesbian then that's allowed it
I remember when one lesbian at work looked at my hair cut and said ill style it the way you did and will go out on the pull tonight and she did lol

 

[andrewlya]

I would love to see this more in our western churches
Do young women in your churches wear head coverings?


"What is the Scriptural and Patristic evidence for this tradition, and why is it important?"
https://theorthodoxlife.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/womens-headcoverings/

I like prefer when women wear head scarves in a Church.
When I go to Russian Orthodox here in England almost all women wear a head scarf, it is Biblically correct.


1 Corinthians 11:3–16
"3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife1 is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife2 who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6"

Not every woman is married.

If you start walking up to other guys and saying, "Excuse me, but your wife should...," the next thing that happens may be a knuckle sandwich. The same goes if you try this little lecture on unmarried strangers. If nobody was asking you, maybe you ought to keep it to yourself.

Huh!The OP was asking what our opinion on head coverings, so I've given my opinion. So, what's your problem,brother??

 

[Bob2]

Sorry to objectify women, but doesn't a headscarf make a girl soooooo much more attractive, or is that just me?

Thankfully it is just you (not saying it makes them ugly of course) or we might have to discuss if one of the purposes of headcoverings has now flipped in our modern times  ???

Perhaps not:

Of course many of the young women wear them loosely for most of the service, and then tighten it up when approaching for Holy Communion, which I have to say I find a turn on.

Most parishes in ROCOR still encourage head covering. However, whenever I visited the two ROCOR parishes in Los Angeles between 1996 to 2009, if a woman did not wear a headcovering, nothing was said, but in the Narthex, there was always a basket filled with scarves, and there were wrap around skirts nicely folded in a hutch or hanging up on the walls. Older women would lead a woman to the narthex and point to the skirts if a woman were to wear pants. For some reason, wearing a skirt was more important than a headcovering.

^This is consistent with the practice at our parish. Though we try to have the headscarves and wrap around skirts available for those that want them. They are not to be pushed on newcomers, though this does occasionally get violated.


I do like when women headscarves and skirts, but as long a the woman is modest it doesn't matter that much to me. I find the skirts that some wear are more accentuating of the female shape than pants, so sometimes I think people get confused between the letter and spirit of the law. I also remember reading an article decrying women without skirts or headscarves which was very harsh, basically calling them harlots, immodest and a distraction from prayer. I remember thinking if seeing a woman's hair is such a distraction from prayer, then maybe the is with you not her.

 

[andrewlya]

I would love to see this more in our western churches
Do young women in your churches wear head coverings?


"What is the Scriptural and Patristic evidence for this tradition, and why is it important?"
https://theorthodoxlife.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/womens-headcoverings/

I like prefer when women wear head scarves in a Church.
When I go to Russian Orthodox here in England almost all women wear a head scarf, it is Biblically correct.


1 Corinthians 11:3–16
"3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife1 is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife2 who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6"

Not every woman is married.

If you start walking up to other guys and saying, "Excuse me, but your wife should...," the next thing that happens may be a knuckle sandwich. The same goes if you try this little lecture on unmarried strangers. If nobody was asking you, maybe you ought to keep it to yourself.

I don't believe Andrew or Alexandra have it in mind to lecture the young ladies of the parish on this.  That's the job of the clergy.  And if a priest gets a knuckle sandwich for piously doing his job, that's considered a great honor, for blessed are you when they persecute you for the sake of Our Lord, and other verses.

Thanks Wgw,I think Biro doesn't like opinion being expressed if they are contrary to his own.

 

[andrewlya]

I would love to see this more in our western churches
Do young women in your churches wear head coverings?


"What is the Scriptural and Patristic evidence for this tradition, and why is it important?"
https://theorthodoxlife.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/womens-headcoverings/

I like prefer when women wear head scarves in a Church.
When I go to Russian Orthodox here in England almost all women wear a head scarf, it is Biblically correct.


1 Corinthians 11:3–16
"3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife1 is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife2 who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6"

Not every woman is married.

If you start walking up to other guys and saying, "Excuse me, but your wife should...," the next thing that happens may be a knuckle sandwich. The same goes if you try this little lecture on unmarried strangers. If nobody was asking you, maybe you ought to keep it to yourself.

I don't believe Andrew or Alexandra have it in mind to lecture the young ladies of the parish on this.  That's the job of the clergy.  And if a priest gets a knuckle sandwich for piously doing his job, that's considered a great honor, for blessed are you when they persecute you for the sake of Our Lord, and other verses.

Andrewlya is a non-Trinitarian. I don't care what he says.

Also, you are not a priest.

Biro, calm down, where is your Christian love?
I respect you, so should you just at least because we are fellow humans and believe in one God.

God bless you.

 

[andrewlya]

It is Biblically correct.

I'm so fascinated by these posts that seem to float in from another, non-Orthodox forum.

Which one exactly? Considering I am not on any other Christian forum.

 

[Porter ODoran]

Andrew, your last five or six posts make it seem as tho you think the thread is about you, and I know you have more perspective than that.

 

[Agabus]

NVM.

 

[andrewlya]

Andrew, your last five or six posts make it seem as tho you think the thread is about you, and I know you have more perspective than that.

Porter, it can't be about me, I don't wear head scarf

 

[Porter ODoran]

Good on you coming round.

 

[Pravoslavac]

I think men should cover their heads, we are the ugly ones.

 

[andrewlya]

I think men should cover their heads, we are the ugly ones.

Jews used to.

 

[PeterTheAleut]

I would love to see this more in our western churches
Do young women in your churches wear head coverings?


"What is the Scriptural and Patristic evidence for this tradition, and why is it important?"
https://theorthodoxlife.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/womens-headcoverings/

I like prefer when women wear head scarves in a Church.
When I go to Russian Orthodox here in England almost all women wear a head scarf, it is Biblically correct.


1 Corinthians 11:3–16
"3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife1 is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife2 who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6"

Not every woman is married.

If you start walking up to other guys and saying, "Excuse me, but your wife should...," the next thing that happens may be a knuckle sandwich. The same goes if you try this little lecture on unmarried strangers. If nobody was asking you, maybe you ought to keep it to yourself.

When did Andrew ever admit to lecturing women about wearing or not wearing head coverings in church? ???

 

[Maria]

I think men should cover their heads, we are the ugly ones.

Toupees?

http://www.toupeehair.com/

 

[montalo]

Pro tip: Biro is female.

 

[Maria]

Pro tip: Biro is female.

Now you are spoiling the fun.

 

[Mor Ephrem]

Pro tip: Biro is female.

Now you are spoiling the fun.

The truth is not fun. 

It all makes sense now. 

 

[PeterTheAleut]

I think men should cover their heads, we are the ugly ones.

Toupees?

http://www.toupeehair.com/

Better that, I suppose, than a comb-over.

 

[Porter ODoran]

I would love to see this more in our western churches
Do young women in your churches wear head coverings?


"What is the Scriptural and Patristic evidence for this tradition, and why is it important?"
https://theorthodoxlife.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/womens-headcoverings/

I like prefer when women wear head scarves in a Church.
When I go to Russian Orthodox here in England almost all women wear a head scarf, it is Biblically correct.


1 Corinthians 11:3–16
"3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife1 is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife2 who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6"

Not every woman is married.

If you start walking up to other guys and saying, "Excuse me, but your wife should...," the next thing that happens may be a knuckle sandwich. The same goes if you try this little lecture on unmarried strangers. If nobody was asking you, maybe you ought to keep it to yourself.

When did Andrew ever admit to lecturing women about wearing or not wearing head coverings in church? ???

I think the point she's making in a colorful way is that the text says "wife" but Andrew seems to be using it as an imperative for all women.

 

[Pravoslavac]

My grandpa used to force un-married women in our family to wear head-coverings everywhere, not only in church. When he died, God rest his soul, women were freed. He died in 1997.

 

[wgw]

I would love to see this more in our western churches
Do young women in your churches wear head coverings?


"What is the Scriptural and Patristic evidence for this tradition, and why is it important?"
https://theorthodoxlife.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/womens-headcoverings/

I like prefer when women wear head scarves in a Church.
When I go to Russian Orthodox here in England almost all women wear a head scarf, it is Biblically correct.


1 Corinthians 11:3–16
"3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife1 is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife2 who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6"

Not every woman is married.

If you start walking up to other guys and saying, "Excuse me, but your wife should...," the next thing that happens may be a knuckle sandwich. The same goes if you try this little lecture on unmarried strangers. If nobody was asking you, maybe you ought to keep it to yourself.

I don't believe Andrew or Alexandra have it in mind to lecture the young ladies of the parish on this.  That's the job of the clergy.  And if a priest gets a knuckle sandwich for piously doing his job, that's considered a great honor, for blessed are you when they persecute you for the sake of Our Lord, and other verses.

Andrewlya is a non-Trinitarian. I don't care what he says.

Also, you are not a priest.

Indeed, which is why I would not presume to lecture the young ladies,of,the parish about this.  However, frankly if I were a priest, I would only deliver such a lecture if I thought it would result in a knuckle sandwich; in other words, if the ancient customs were being intentionally defied.  I'm not a fan of indelicate clergy who go around correcting people, I've seen some in some Orthoodx parishes and I avoid those.  One has to be careful not to be pharisaical about these things.  But if there was some sort of feminist veil burning in the works, horror of horrors, that would be the time for a priest to take action.  But thankfully I've seen nothing like that in the works; the use of headscarves is a pious custom that is commonly but not universally observed and I think that's highly acceptable. 

Regarding Andrew being a non Trinitarian, if true, that's a huge mistake on his part.  I've enjoyed conversing with Andrew.  I do think his signature exudes a certain non Trinitarian vibe so hopefully he'll correct that, as I rather agree the contributions of someone who denies the Nicene Creed on this forum must be viewed in a different light.  Technically such persons are anathema but we allow them here for their benefit in the hopes of their enlightenment, and from my conversations with Andrew I feel like he is benefitting from that aspect of this forum and I hope to see him unite himself to the Orthodox Church.  There is a religious forum I've visited where the Christisnity section is dominated by a gang of well organized trolls from Jehovah's Witnesses, who act in concert to control all discussion.  Most unpleasant.  And then there was a gentleman who believed Jesus was speaking to him personally and would post his revelations about how the church should be run.  Prelest is heartbreaking to see coupled with insanity at close distance.  :'(

But just so we're clear, though I like headscarves and hats, I am not legalistic about them; if a woman doesn't wesr one or forgets one and there isn't a communal scarf box like our churches in the LA area have, I think they should receive the Eucharist if properly prepared through confession et cetera.