Women lie about their sex lives

byzrubush

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Sexual sins are not a big deal compared with the important stuff. People who worry too much about them end up falling into more sexual sins!!!

Matt
 

Anastasios

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sinjinsmythe said:
You are telling me there is a difference between a person who has slept with one or two other people and the whole football team? What is the point of me being a virgin then? Whatever happened to being pure and having only one person for the rest of your life? Whatever happened to building an intimacy over time? So it is not so bad to have sex with a few people and not ten? That is pathetic.
WOW! Of course there is a difference! God recognizes degrees of sin! A woman or man who has sex with one person before marriage versus one who goes around screwing a football team is a big difference!!!

It is not pathetic, it is the way life is in this screwed up modern world. People make mistakes. If Jesus can look past them so can you! St Theodora was bascially a whore but St. Justinian married her and they found true love.


The reason YOU should remain a virgin is because YOU know it is wrong. But life is NOT black and white. You are basically asking "oh well if everyone else is doing it so shouldn't I?"

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plutonas said:
However, since I absolutely refuse to marry a woman that has been deflowered (no matter how much I loved her) I'll probably end up never getting married for this reason, and dying alone.
Excuse me, but you can't be serious??!!!

Who are YOU to judge? Have YOU not sinned in the past?

Why are your many sins able to be forgiven, but not a young woman who made a mistake before she knew the consequences of her action?

If this person is truly sorry for the mistake she made in the past and has repented before her God, then YOU will be the one judged for your inability to forgive.

 

sinjinsmythe

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CDHealy said:
But you seem to come from a viewpoint that views the consequences of sexual sin as pragmatically irredeemable. That is to say, it appears that you think one can be forgiven, but in terms of the daily work of intimacy, it's essentially over if physical purity has been lost.
Here is the parable of the locket and where locket is , substitute sex.
A boy buys a locket for his girlfriend. They break up. Every time he has a girlfriend and has to get a gift, he can think of no better gift than that locket. When he gets married and goes to buy a gift for his bride, he finds himself looking at the same locket. Although he wants to get something else, that is the most perfect gift he can think of, so he gets it. As he puts it around her neck, he cannot help but remember every girl he ever gave the locket to.

Obviously everytime you have sex with someone you are giving a piece of yourself away.
I guess what I'm trying to express is don't worry.
It is something to worry about when it is important to one personally.
But there are plenty of virginal marriages that don't last because of many other factors, and plenty of non-virginal marriages (one or both partners) that do last.
Of course virginal marriages fail, but that doesn't endorse losing your virginity before your wedding night.
In short, if a girl you find attractive is one with whom you can worship, pray and play, and with whom you have "fallen in love" it would not doom your relationship if she (or, perhaps you) were to have failed.
CDHealy, are you married? It would not doom the relationship if my future spouse was not a virgin? Read what I said above about sex and the locket. I don't think you understand. By the way, you seem to be condoning losing virginity....I don't that the holy fathers would take such a softy stance that you take.

The greatest of whores have become saints, after all, men and women.
True, but what are the chances of finding someone who is like that? Seriously my friend especially in this era of human history.
 

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sinjinsmythe said:
By the way, I believe men should be virgins too until their wedding day, but then again given this thread, why bother being a virgin anymore :'(
No, No, No -- I am saying that the person made a mistake BEFORE they understood that it was a sin.

As an Orthodox Christian you MUST forgive that person if they truly repent. And if you choose to hold it against them as the ONLY reason you would not MARRY them, then you have NOT truly forgiven them.

 

byzrubush

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I bet 99.999% of us are guilty of sexual sins. We are all human and that's why God became man. St. Basil the Great is quoted in the Philokalia (Vol. 1) saying, "I have known not woman, yet I am not a virgin."

We are to be made into a new creation and not just cling to the old. Again, I think if you are struggling with this stuff and accusing others of things, then you are clinging too hard. The pharisees who wanted to stone the harlot may not have done anything for 40 years, but they are the ones going to hell for judging that woman whom Jesus loved.

Matt
 

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Maybe if you assume lack of virginity, then if you later found out she was a virgin would make more sense. It comes down to trust, and fretting about it is not going to cause it to go away. I would think virginity is least of one's worries in getting married, the bigger question is do you get along, do you look at problems from the same sort of value systems, etc. For any marriage to work, forgiveness is a must, and if you can not forgive a woman who has had sex in the past, long before she knew you, then maybe you should consider not getting married at all, and go to a monastery.
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Anastasios

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Sinjin,

OK you basically ask why. So if this is a really big issue for you then pray that God will find you a virgin specifically.

I am not going to presume to tell you HOW to do go about it as we have had this discussion before (ie lack of available women for young Orthodox men) but I am just saying that God will provide if it is his will.

anastasios
 

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anastasios, thank you sir! I'd do the same for you, but you're already married as you mentioned previously.

Elisha, like I told nilus, who ever said anything about gynecological examinations and the like??? If there didn't exist enough trust in the relationship for one partner to believe what the other said, what good would a physical test do?

sinjinsmythe, along with completely agreeing on the points you made I want to also say that I laughed out loud when I read that comment you made about us being aliens from another planet


The funny thing is that this hasn't been the only thread where me and you have been "singled out" in our opinions, as it were. We'll always be misunderstood it seems...

CDHealy, I do understand what you're saying about the "ontological aspects of purity" being restored through through confession, repentance, and askesis but even so I still could not forgive the loss of virginity even if God did. For me this is a deeply personal thing which symbolizes more, and goes far beyond, than just a question of an individual's purity. It has a lot to do with the things that form the very basis of my world-view...

Personally, I'd much rather be alone than in wedlock to someone who refused to wait for me, like I did for them.

TomS, what are you saying? That I have NO right to expect certain things from a person I wish to spend the rest of my life with? That there should be no standards whatsoever when I go to choose my wife? Are you sure YOU aren't the one not being serious?

And please don't deal me this "not knowing the consequences of her action" thing. She didn't jaywalk or park in the wrong area, she allowed another human being to do very intimate (maybe even sickening, revolting) things to her and she reciprocated them as well. It was a conscious choice and as such there must be consequences for it.

Yes, it's true we all make mistakes, but it's also true that we must take responsibility for them.

As for God judging me for not forgiving her for a shameless debauchery and loss of all self-respect, well, in that case I can do nothing but gladly accept my fate. Let me be judged and let me be damned even, if the only other option I have is to accept a despoiled creature as my wife, thereby lowering and degrading myself.
 

ania

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My Gosh...
With all the problems in the world today, you would demand a virgin, & not someone who, besides putting up with your bad habbits, can share your joys & sorrows? (Not that, if your lucky, you can't have both). You will place the rest of your life, your spiritual & physical happiness, on one flimsy peice of tissue???
People make mistakes, that's the way it is. You remember, a good part of the Church's teaching is about lost sheep, and how Christ got them back! The whole concept of confession is to make yourself pure again. If you honestly, whole-heartedly, and humbly confessed your sins, then when you walk out of confession, your are pure until you sin again.
If both marriage partners are virgins, that's great, good for them! Honestly, I know that is the way it's supposed to be. But, I know plenty of people (my close family members included) who either were sexually active before marriage, or married somebody who was. As yet, most of them are doing alright, and those who are having problems aren't having problems because one or both went to the marriage bed not a virgin.
Before people jump down my throat and say I'm advocating sexual activity, I'd like to say I AM NOT!!! However, I see the sin of not forgiving, knowingly condemning someone who is/was sexually active far greater than the sin of the person your not forgiving.
And, before anyone starts wondering, YES, <<gasp>> I am a virgin.
(See, there are Orthodox girls who are still virgins out there ::))
Gotta go,
Ania
 

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sinjinsmythe said:
Of course virginal marriages fail, but that doesn't endorse losing your virginity before your wedding night.
Re-read my post. I think I very clearly stated I do not condone losing one's virginity. Also, note the content of Plutonas' posts. He has stated he couldn't forgive even if God could. This is an extremely dangerous state of heart. (Cf. our Lord's words on the matter.) My comment about "not worrying" was an attempt to bring him back from the edge of danger.

sinjinsmythe said:
CDHealy, are you married? It would not doom the relationship if my future spouse was not a virgin? Read what I said above about sex and the locket. I don't think you understand. By the way, you seem to be condoning losing virginity....I don't that the holy fathers would take such a softy stance that you take.
I am married, and expecting our first child in a matter of days. I will not go into the details of my and my spouse's sexual histories, but suffice it to say, the loss of sexual purity/virginity was something with which we had to deal. So I know from personal experience the loss of virginity, would not doom your relationship with your future spouse. Yes, there would be significant effects through which you both would have to work, but you would not be doomed. And once again, clearly now and for the record: I DO NOT CONDONE LOSING ONE'S VIRGINITY.
 

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Sinjim, now's your chance...... ;)

This discussion is so very hypothetical. Obviously it matters if the person whom you are planning to marry gives signs that they are likely to be unfaithful. But that's the point. It is the person. If you are not courting, then it's al rather moot. If you are courting, then it is that person who must be addressed and loved, and if all you can do is evaluate him/her on the basis of virginity, you fail to forgive, and you serve yourself, not the other.
 

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plutonas said:
TomS, what are you saying? That I have NO right to expect certain things from a person I wish to spend the rest of my life with? That there should be no standards whatsoever when I go to choose my wife? Are you sure YOU aren't the one not being serious?
If you want to take it to that extreme, then YES, that is exactly what I am saying, because you are judging that person based upon who they were BEFORE. That is no longer relevant, that is unless you reject the teachings of the Church.

plutonas said:
And please don't deal me this "not knowing the consequences of her action" thing. She didn't jaywalk or park in the wrong area, she allowed another human being to do very intimate (maybe even sickening, revolting) things to her and she reciprocated them as well. It was a conscious choice and as such there must be consequences for it. Yes, it's true we all make mistakes, but it's also true that we must take responsibility for them.
What is wrong with saying that? Am I not correct? Stop taking YOUR current values system and trying to apply it her past. IT IS NOT RELEVANT!

But she IS taking responibility for them -- that is why she has asked for forgiveness.

plutonas said:
As for God judging me for not forgiving her for a shameless debauchery and loss of all self-respect, well, in that case I can do nothing but gladly accept my fate. Let me be judged and let me be damned even
Hey, have it your way, pal. There is plenty of rope.

plutonas said:
.. if the only other option I have is to accept a despoiled creature as my wife, thereby lowering and degrading myself.
IF you truly applied the teaching of the Orthodox Church, she would not be.


 

Kukla

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This forum is overrun with males!!!!!!

Oh man you guys. A sin is a sin. If a woman falls, and if a man falls, they repent and if they are truly repentant God will forgive them. Gluttony is a sin. How many of you have confessed gluttony? Pride? Would I not marry someone because they have a tendency to be prideful? Or they have been gluttoness one a particular Thanksgiving? Were you truly sorry for what you did? Then you are forgiven. We all fall into sin one way or another, and it is prideful and rude of you guys to criticize the females out there that have fallen into sin and are TRULY repentant. It is just plain rude and prideful.


On that note - what about St. Mary of Egypt?? She was a PROSTITUTE!!!!!! Heck with a whole football team! She repented! She is now a saint!!!! A greatly revered saint!!
Now, I want to know how many of you guys wouldn't want to marry her!! Because she slept with some people. She repented!!!!!!!!! She is a saint!!!! How can you say that a woman who you might consider marrying but has slept with someone might not be a saint!!!! You might miss the opportunity of your life.

enough said.

and, like ania (well-said in your post, btw) I am not promoting promiscuity but I am promoting repentance and forgiveness. And yes, I am still a virgin.
 

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Kukla:

Would you be offended if I gave a very hearty, one-time Protestant "AMEN!"?

I wanted to keep my post/replies short, but the desert fathers have always indicated a close relationship between gluttony and lust. And it would seem our Lord had a thing or two to say about lust. How many of us men have remained physical virgins while consuming all sorts of pornography (both "soft" as in the Victoria Secrets show on television--and the more disgusting "hard core")? Seems to me to be a big disconnect. This is not to say that it's easy for guys to maintain purity of mind in our U. S. culture given the trend in women's fashions (bare midriffs, bare shoulders, low-cut jeans which intentionally reveal underwear selection--need I go on?). I'm not blaming women. God knows we men should take Job's vow and make a covenant with our eyes.

It just blows me away that one on issue, the consensus of the forum was to "liberalize" Church/Scriptural strictures on intimate partnerships with non-Christians (which I was against), yet on this issue, the consensus seems to be "no virginity, no wife, no forgiveness." Sheesh.
 

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and if, as someone said, God might forgive someone for falling into sin with a man, but YOU (whoever said it) won't then-

do you view St. Mary of Egypt as a saint? Seeing that you can't forgive her for her promiscuity, she must not be a saint in your eyes?

How can anyone say they cannot forgive something that God forgives? It is not up to us to judge other people's acts... and if God forgives, we have NO CHOICE but to forgive also. If it is a personal choice to not marry someone who is not a virgin, then so be it. But do not word it that you don't forgive that person. That is VERY dangerous.
 

Kukla

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wow... I just realized I wrote "gluttoness" wow...

sorry about that guys.. I've been tutoring spanish all day today. My Russian/Spanish/English get all confused sometimes and my english spelling is getting worse by the day :p

as for the protestant amen: haha not offended! ;) In fact, I used to be presbyterian, so it reminds me of the old days :)
 

Kukla

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sinjinsmythe said:
Kukla said:
This forum is overrun with males!!!!!!
I am sorry for being born a male.



How can you say that a woman who you might consider marrying but has slept with someone might not be a saint!!!! You might miss the opportunity of your life.
The chances of someone becoming a saint are very, very slim.
but for you to judge beforehand is unfair. What are the chances that you would have guessed St. Mary of Egypt would become a saint? How can you condemn women who have fallen when you dont know their level of repentance? And even if a woman might not be a saint, who is to say she won't enter heaven? Or help you with your salvation? If you meet the right woman, certain things won't matter.
 
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