Women lie about their sex lives

plutonas

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This is going to be my last response on this topic because I'm getting pissed off with the attitudes I'm getting from a supposedly 'Christian' crowd.

ania said:
My Gosh...
With all the problems in the world today, you would demand a virgin, & not someone who, besides putting up with your bad habbits, can share your joys & sorrows? (Not that, if your lucky, you can't have both). You will place the rest of your life, your spiritual & physical happiness, on one flimsy peice of tissue???
Who ever said that virginity was the ONLY thing we were expecting??? Some of you really make WAY too many assumptions about what was said.... If I was looking for a virgin and nothing else I'd go to Saudi Arabia, or Africa, or India and find a wife. Obviously that isn't the case.

TomS said:
Hey, have it your way, pal. There is plenty of rope.
I'm not your pal. Nor would I ever want to be. So keep that in mind when speaking to me again. Actually, scratch that -- just don't speak to me again. Period.

Oh, and one last thing just because you decided to marry some 'woman' who has probably seen more action than a NY hooker, doesn't mean the rest of us have to, okay? Thanks for understanding, 'buddy.'
 

TomS

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plutonas said:
Oh, and one last thing just because you decided to marry some 'woman' who has probably seen more action than a NY hooker, doesn't mean the rest of us have to, okay?
New Jersey hooker, my friend. New Jersey.

:)
 

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I completely agree with you Tom. There seems to be a lot of judging going on in this thread. Sexual sins are certainly not the only sins. As long as someone is repentant and has reformed their lives, their past should not be an issue IMO.

In Christ,
Tony

TomS said:
plutonas said:
However, since I absolutely refuse to marry a woman that has been deflowered (no matter how much I loved her) I'll probably end up never getting married for this reason, and dying alone.
Excuse me, but you can't be serious??!!!

Who are YOU to judge? Have YOU not sinned in the past?

Why are your many sins able to be forgiven, but not a young woman who made a mistake before she knew the consequences of her action?

If this person is truly sorry for the mistake she made in the past and has repented before her God, then YOU will be the one judged for your inability to forgive.
 

Kukla

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... but just a question, from another p.o.v.-

What if your best guy friend fell and slept with a girl? He realized after it that he was wrong, went to confession, was truly repentent and vowed to never let it happen again until after marriage. Would you discourage him from dating virgins? Would you wish him to marry a non-virgin? Or would you respect him because he realized his error, repented, and lived a chaste life after? Or would you not associate with him, not forgive him, and criticize him if he dated a virgin, or married a virgin? Who would have the greater sin? The man who fell and felt truly repentent? Or the man who continued to judge even after God had granted forgiveness? And would you actually discourage him from marrying a virgin? Even though he had received forgiveness from God and changed his ways? Would that be fair for you? Would it be fair for me to do the same with my best girl friend?

Just like one-time gluttony will not ruin a chef for the rest of his career, one-time falling into lust will not ruin a repentent Christian's future marriage.

sorry... bad bad analogy, but like I said, my brain is fried :p
 

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plutonas said:
This is going to be my last response on this topic because I'm getting pissed off with the attitudes I'm getting from a supposedly 'Christian' crowd.
I'm sorry, I fail to understand. We're talking sin, repentance and forgiveness. Seems very Christian to me.

On the other hand, not forgiving . . . "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses." (Matthew 18:35 NKJV)
 

sinjinsmythe

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Kukla said:
... but just a question, from another p.o.v.-

What if your best guy friend fell and slept with a girl? He realized after it that he was wrong, went to confession, was truly repentent and vowed to never let it happen again until after marriage. Would you discourage him from dating virgins? Would you wish him to marry a non-virgin? Or would you respect him because he realized his error, repented, and lived a chaste life after? Or would you not associate with him, not forgive him, and criticize him if he dated a virgin, or married a virgin? Who would have the greater sin? The man who fell and felt truly repentent? Or the man who continued to judge even after God had granted forgiveness? And would you actually discourage him from marrying a virgin? Even though he had received forgiveness from God and changed his ways? Would that be fair for you? Would it be fair for me to do the same with my best girl friend?

Just like one-time gluttony will not ruin a chef for the rest of his career, one-time falling into lust will not ruin a repentent Christian's future marriage.

sorry... bad bad analogy, but like I said, my brain is fried :p
I will be honest here, and it may shock some people. I would criticize him for dating a virgin. I would mock him for marrying a virgin, because that virgin could have married another virgin. Life is not fair, that is what I have learned. Just because God forgives you does not mean all things are well. What about someone who kills someone else? He goes to church repents and confesses his sin, truly repented and vowed to never fall again. God has forgiven him, so why doesn't society forgive him and let him out of jail? Their are consequences to sin. A person who has slept around has a good chance of carrying STDs(believe it or not condoms do not protect against every STD) and STDs have been know to cause infertility in males and females. So it becomes more of a health issue, and that is not a minor thing at all. I have found that women are more accepting of sexual liasons than men. Just look at Kobe Bryant. He commits adultery and may go to jail, yet there is his wife right by his side.
 

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plutonas said:
You obviously weren't paying attention to what the man said. He asked how it could ever be possible for a virgin and non-virgin to find some sort of intiacy between each other -- not whether two non-virgins could. The two situations are completely different from one another and, as such, everything you said is rendered moot.
Actually, I was paying attention. The situations are not completely different. The point remains the same: just because someone is not a virgin when they marry doesn't mean they can't have an intimate relationship with their spouse. If he is a virign and his wife is not when they marry, through the grace of God, they may still have an intimate relationship.

In Christ,

Jenny
 

Asteriktos

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Don't forget that, especially in this day and age (with the net, xxx channels, porn shops, etc.), virginity is only part of the story. I technically entered marriage a virgin, but I was hardly sexually pure. Our world today offers us many different ways of being sexually impure while still being "a virgin" physically. The Fathers almost always identified virginity with purity of both body and soul. It would be wise for us not to get too hung up on the physical virginity thing.... especially in light of the fact that almost all of us have failed in some way in this area (even if not by having sexual relations).

The man who lusts in his heart has already committed adultery. Someone who looks at porn often, just as one example -- and I speak not as a judge but as someone with experience -- has not only committed spiritual adultery many times over but has died many spiritual deaths. Committing a sin should help us sympathise and love someone who commits a similar sin, because we can understand the pain and hurt that is caused, and spiritual and personal failure. Perhaps many of us have died so many times spiritually, though, that we have little life left with which to enliven and love others. I know this is true of me.
 

Kukla

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I will be honest here, and it may shock some people. I would criticize him for dating a virgin. I would mock him for marrying a virgin, because that virgin could have married another virgin. Life is not fair, that is what I have learned. Just because God forgives you does not mean all things are well. What about someone who kills someone else? He goes to church repents and confesses his sin, truly repented and vowed to never fall again. God has forgiven him, so why doesn't society forgive him and let him out of jail? Their are consequences to sin. A person who has slept around has a good chance of carrying STDs(believe it or not condoms do not protect against every STD) and STDs have been know to cause infertility in males and females. So it becomes more of a health issue, and that is not a minor thing at all. I have found that women are more accepting of sexual liasons than men. Just look at Kobe Bryant. He commits adultery and may go to jail, yet there is his wife right by his side.

I am sorry you feel this way. That is very sad. Yes, God forgives people if they are truly repentent and they may still remain in jail, thanks to our society. Is this the justification you are using to say that you don't have to forgive someone? Because society still leaves them in jail in spite of their repentance? This is the same society that earlier in this thread has been blamed for lack of morals and instilling promiscuity in people's lives.

And as for the STDs. Yes, that is undeniably a problem. However, are the STDs what you are concerned with? Or are you concerned more with the spiritual aspect of it. I'm a bit confused ???
 

Jenny

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sinjinsmythe said:
As Plutonas said, I was asking about how a virgin and a non-virgin can build sexual intimacy in a marriage. Anyway, you don't seem to be endorsing virginity, by that you are not totally bummed about not being a virgin on your wedding day.
On the contrary, as I said in my post, I wished I had remained a virgin. I didn't use the words "totally bummed" so perhaps I didn't convey just how sorry I was, but rest assured I was seriously disappointed. Everyone should be a virgin when they marry. It is tragic if they are not. However, my point was that it doesn't mean you can't have an intimate relationship. And it does NOT matter whether the situation is one in which both people are not virgins or just one is not a virgin; a deep, intimate relationship may still flourish.

If I was a widower, I don't think I would re-marry. Depending on the situation I would consider monasticism.
Say you had not been married and 10 years from now you meet and fall in love with a woman who had been married previously and was widowed (and she had only been with her late husband) would you not consider marrying her because she had had a previous sexual relationship?

The point I'm trying to make is that just because a woman has been with another man does not mean that you can't have an intimate relationship with her as her spouse.

I'm sorry but I am sure that the Orthodox Church and God himself doesn't see it that way. You are telling me there is a difference between a person who has slept with one or two other people and the whole football team? What is the point of me being a virgin then? Whatever happened to being pure and having only one person for the rest of your life? Whatever happened to building an intimacy over time? So it is not so bad to have sex with a few people and not ten? That is pathetic.
You're missing my point. It's never good to fornicate or commit adultery. Sex is meant for inside marriage only. However, there is a difference since a girl who goes out to sleep with the whole football team obviously has issues sexually, as opposed to the girl who made a single mistake by giving in to a boyfriend.

I guess Plutonas and I are two aliens from another planet on this whole entire issue. I realize we live in a more sexually liberated time and it is sad. So much for being chaste up to your marriage, might as well go out and get some experience with one or two others. This whole thread is just plain despairing. :(
Don't despair. I'm really glad to see a guy who is willing to wait until marriage. Most guys I've met, including Christian guys, are not willing to wait.

Your sister in Christ,

Jenny
 

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sinjinsmythe said:
Just look at Kobe Bryant. He commits adultery and may go to jail, yet there is his wife right by his side.
I'll take bets on how long. Be patient. By showing up at his side she gains more sympathy in the eyes of a future jury. You think she is stupid?

She knows this is not the first time. But then she can file for divorce and say "I stuck buy him then, but I had no IDEA that there were others. So, I'll settle for 50% of his earnings since we got married. Thank you"

;D

P.S. Not that you can blame her!
 

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Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil. And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten ...

-- The Prophet Joel
 
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Just a few thoughts...

i) If someone is set on marrying a virgin, that is their right. They certainly are not space aliens for expecting such - in most cultures, including decidedly Christian ones, a very high premium was placed on this. Up until relatively recently, even in the west, a huge social stigma was placed upon engaging in pre-marital sex; it was a disgrace, with real social consequences, particularly in regard to one's future prospects. This was particularly true in regard to women. This is unfair (the gender bias), but it is hardly something "strange", and at one time there were understandable reasons for this bias (relating to the legitimacy of children, or ensuring any children born shortly after the marriage were in fact those of the husband.)

ii) statistically, marriages where both partners are virgins do work out better. Divorce rates fall through the floor, even in our troubled western cultures, when one looks at marriages between two virgins. Psychologically, we do give a part of ourselves away when we engage in sexual relations. Obviously, if one has been with people other than their current spouse, some of the exlusiveness of that relationship has been comprimised. This is why in Orthodoxy, one marriage is the ideal, even for widows/widowers.

iii) With the above said, (as Justin wisely pointed out) there is more to this than simple physicality... particularly for Christians, whose interests should rise above tribal/economic interests from days past (which still exist in many societies, such as the middle east and less developed areas), situations which actually result in a vision of marriage which is not by default what a "Christian marriage" is all about. The Christian marriage is actually a very different animal from what normally passes for marriage in other civilizations; it is a return to the Adamic ideal, as Christ Himself indicated when speaking to the Jews. In fact, without this Christian ideal, the utility of marriage as an institution becomes open for debate, since we are no longer nomads or tribesmen who have vested social/economic interests in our offspring, their strict descent from our loins, etc. In fact, it is such a contractual/worldly view of marriage which allowed for the degeneration of marriage into polygamy throughout the world (since there is no good economic reason why a man couldn't have more than one wife to produce legitimate children.) In our culture, this more "tribalistic" view of marriage rings hollow, and in part (along with the decline of the Christian ideal of marriage, corresponding to the decline of Christianity in general) is why promiscuity and the devaluing of marriage as an institution (or confusion about what it's for) has become so common.

iv) What should be of paramount concern when finding a spouse, I would think, is the state of their heart. Virginity is not simply a matter of being physically in tact - virginity signifies (particularly in our sex drenched culture) a great commitment, and no small amount of personal discipline. The mind which see's virginity as being important, is probably more congenial to the Christian ethos in general.

v) However, I think it's also possible to find someone who is repentent of their sins (in particular, sexual sins) and who has, in a manner of speaking, renewed their purity. Perhaps such a person may be a very zealous Christian even. It would be a shame to turn such a person away, I think, because of their past. That however, is up to the person looking for a spouse, and we should respect that decision...I would say finding a genuine Christian, is just as difficult (if not more so) than finding someone who is a virgin...though I'd argue that the two often go hand in hand in our culture (since nothing but some kind of religious conviction would make such an unfashionable virtue practicable in our social climate.)

vi) A little word about "virgins" however. This may sound terribly judgemental, but I question how "virginal" some physically in tact women are, at least in our culture. Growing up, I knew of girls who prided themselves on being "virgins", yet I knew full well they had done lewd, sexual things...just not vaginal intercourse. Is that really a "virgin" in the sense that matters to Christianity? I'd say no, since "purity" (the real virtue behind being virginal) is something far broader than a woman having an intact hymen. On that score, most men and women who are virgins (even the best of them, whose virginity is not simply pharisaical...no intercourse, but practically everything else under the sun) have fallen at some point. Purity is fundamentally something rooted in the heart, which is precisely why it has some independence from physical acts (thus, why a physically chaste person can in fact be impure, or why someone who has been physically unchaste can regain this purity.)

Seraphim
 

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Just to add another aspect: There are women who have been molested as children or raped. In other words, through no volition of their own, they are not physically "virgins". I hardly thing that this "sullies" them or takes their purity. If such a woman were to be told that she was thus dirty or a w**** or unworthy of marriage this would cause even more wounds then the physical assault alone.

Life is not always or even often "binary".

Ebor
 

prodromos

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I think it would do us all some good to read Hosea sometime.

Nobody on this thread has condoned sleeping around before marriage (or after marriage too I imagine) so I'm a little suprised at how two of our eligible bachelors have responded. Personally, I believe that when God reveals those women He has intended for you both this will not be an issue, and if it is you will wish to have it dealt with and never brought up again.

Marriage is a sacrament, and just like Baptism, Confession, the Eucharist etc. it is salvific in nature. I haven't had the time to look deeply into how this is so as I only recently came to this understanding, but others I have spoken to have confirmed the truth of this.

God is only interested in our salvation, everything He has done and continues to do for us is to this end. If marrying a virgin will help you in your journey to attaining salvation then I'm sure that God will bless you with such a marriage.
We must not forget, however, that God sees the big picture and will often permit suffering and despair in our lives which we do not understand at the time, but which force us to struggle and gain in strength so that we can strive all the more towards attaining eternal life. This may involve matching you with a woman who has sinned sexually in the past. It may be necessary for God to yoke her to a man who has kept himself sexually pure for the sake of her own salvation, as it may also be necessary for the man to be yoked to a woman who has sinned in this way for the sake of his own salvation.

Our only requirement in a spouse should be someone who can support us in our struggle towards the goal of eternal life and who we in turn can support in their struggle, for we become one flesh, their struggle becomes ours and ours theirs as we strive together as one.

I'll leave it there as I'm having difficulty expressing exactly what I want to say. I commend you for choosing to remain celebate for the sake of your future spouses as it is good and proper, however I don't believe you can demand the same of your spouses. All of us are adulterous before God as all of us have placed other things before God in our lives, yet God is merciful and forgiving and not only receives us back when we repent, but washes us whiter than snow. If God has forgiven us so large a debt, how can we not forgive those who have so much smaller a debt towards us?

John.
 

Keble

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prodromos said:
I think it would do us all some good to read Hosea sometime.
Far and away the most sensible thing said in this thread. Thank you for bringing up Hosea-- it hadn't occurred to me, but its relevance is obvious and telling.
 
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