Wow!

[Irish Melkite]

That's all I can say about this 

Many years,

Neil

 

[Asteriktos]

Very byzantine of them  olice:

 

[deusveritasest]

CAF is such a joke when it comes to dialoguing with the Orthodox.

 

[Irish Melkite]

CAF is such a joke when it comes to dialoguing with the Orthodox.

Agreed. But, it wasn't always that way, as those here and at byzcath who once participated there, remember.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Stephen St. Pierre]

So are you guys on the side of the Orthodox poster that caused all of this then? Was that person's banning unfair to begin with making others come to their defense or something?

None of my business I know, just curious.

 

[chris]

Well, here is an interesting thread if y'all are interested in reading it...

 

[Jibrail Almuhajir]

No disrespect intended towards the OP, but who cares what's being said on a Roman Catholic forum?  Why the surprise anyway when the name is CATHOLIC Answers?  Pretty clear to me.  At any rate, I respect their tactics; they've created a forum where Roman Catholics can go to get answers about the Roman Catholic faith and they don't want any other faith to detract or jeopardize their mission.  In others words, they're doing exactly what they set out to do.  So they won't let us Orthodox say what we want on THEIR forum?  Big deal!  That's not Machiavellian nor Orwelian.  They take their faith seriously (as do we) and they're in no mood to let their flock become confused or proselytized.  Obviously as an Eastern Orthodox Christian, I view their faith as heretical, but that's their forum so I don't understand why we Orthodox are constantly complaining about them not letting us say what we want.  If only we would concentrate on the log in our own eyes...  

 

[PJ]

No disrespect intended towards the OP, but who cares what's being said on a Roman Catholic forum?

Actually, an awful lot of Orthodox seem to care an awful lot about what happens at the Catholic Answers Forum.

But it isn't just the Catholic Answers Forum. Neo-conservative Catholics in general are the 600-lb gorilla in ecumenical relations. If you don't play their game, there a good chance you won't get to play at all. (I'm not saying that's how it should be, just how it is.)

 

[vamrat]

Thank the Lord that in His great mercy Catholic moderators are banning us from their forums rather than Catholic Ustashi killing our people or Catholic Crusaders sacking our Capitals!

 

[Irish Melkite]

No disrespect intended towards the OP, but who cares what's being said on a Roman Catholic forum?  Why the surprise anyway when the name is CATHOLIC Answers?  Pretty clear to me.  At any rate, I respect their tactics; they've created a forum where Roman Catholics can go to get answers about the Roman Catholic faith and they don't want any other faith to detract or jeopardize their mission.  In others words, they're doing exactly what they set out to do.  So they won't let us Orthodox say what we want on THEIR forum?  Big deal!  That's not Machiavellian nor Orwelian.  They take their faith seriously (as do we) and they're in no mood to let their flock become confused or proselytized.  Obviously as an Eastern Orthodox Christian, I view their faith as heretical, but that's their forum so I don't understand why we Orthodox are constantly complaining about them not letting us say what we want.  If only we would concentrate on the log in our own eyes...  

Gabriel,

The point is that one can post there on any topic regarding pretty much any faith that one chooses to adopt - except, apparently, Orthodoxy. This latest extreme viewpoint taken by CAF even surpasses its prior purging of its Eastern Catholic and Orthodox members a few years back - an event that brought quite a few folk to this site.

While I don't 'care', I (and I suspect others as well) cannot help but be amazed at the public adoption of such a hostile viewpoint toward a Church and Faith which the Church of Rome has declared as being so dear to itself.

Many years,

Neil 

 

[Shanghaiski]

No disrespect intended towards the OP, but who cares what's being said on a Roman Catholic forum?  Why the surprise anyway when the name is CATHOLIC Answers?  Pretty clear to me.  At any rate, I respect their tactics; they've created a forum where Roman Catholics can go to get answers about the Roman Catholic faith and they don't want any other faith to detract or jeopardize their mission.  In others words, they're doing exactly what they set out to do.  So they won't let us Orthodox say what we want on THEIR forum?  Big deal!  That's not Machiavellian nor Orwelian.  They take their faith seriously (as do we) and they're in no mood to let their flock become confused or proselytized.  Obviously as an Eastern Orthodox Christian, I view their faith as heretical, but that's their forum so I don't understand why we Orthodox are constantly complaining about them not letting us say what we want.  If only we would concentrate on the log in our own eyes...  

Gabriel,

The point is that one can post there on any topic regarding pretty much any faith that one chooses to adopt - except, apparently, Orthodoxy. This latest extreme viewpoint taken by CAF even surpasses its prior purging of its Eastern Catholic and Orthodox members a few years back - an event that brought quite a few folk to this site.

While I don't 'care', I (and I suspect others as well) cannot help but be amazed at the public adoption of such a hostile viewpoint toward a Church and Faith which the Church of Rome has declared as being so dear to itself.

Many years,

Neil 

They apparently don't know how to answer Orthodoxy.

 

[sainthieu]

They apparently don't know how to answer Orthodoxy.

That's it in a nutshell. Censorship is the last refuge of a beaten argument.

I am continually astonished at the amount of hostility coming off the RC camp; it's one of the reasons I could never consider RC. It's often--how shall I say?--so un-Christian.

 

[orthonorm]

Neo-conservative Catholics

What do you mean by this? Is it someone who would politically be described as a Neo-Con and also RC or an RC of a stripe which is neo-conservative? If the latter, what does it mean in a nutshell. It sounds a little pejorative in the context, but that could just be me.

Thanks.

 

[Wyatt]

And they say I'M the one with a martyrdom complex  :

 

[PJ]

They apparently don't know how to answer Orthodoxy.

That's it in a nutshell. Censorship is the last refuge of a beaten argument.

I am continually astonished at the amount of hostility coming off the RC camp; it's one of the reasons I could never consider RC. It's often--how shall I say?--so un-Christian.

I can't say that I'm astonished by the hostility that neo-conservative Catholics have toward EOs. Quite frankly, we traditional Catholics can also be pretty hostile toward the Orthodox. But the difference, I think, is that we have a kind of consistency in our approach; whereas the neo-conservative Catholics will cease their hostility just long enough to say Aren't Catholics and Orthodox really the same? or Why do the Orthodox make such a big deal about our differences?

 

[PJ]

Neo-conservative Catholics

What do you mean by this?

Peter W. Miller calls them "'conservative' Catholics". Here's his definition:

As the heretics of yesterday have become the liberals of today, the liberals of yesterday now lay claim to the title "conservative". Consequentially the conservatives came to be known as "traditionalists". Unfortunately, these terms are no longer completely accurate descriptions. So for the purposes of this essay, I will use the following general definitions to delineate the differences between traditionalists and "conservatives":

TRADITIONALIST: One who challenges the novel practices and teachings of Catholics (including bishops and priests) which appear to contradict the prior teaching of the Church. A traditionalist questions the prudence of new pastoral approaches and holds the belief that those things generally deemed objectively good or evil several decades ago remain so today.

"CONSERVATIVE": One who upholds and defends the current policies and positions of the Church hierarchy regardless of their novelty. A "conservative" extends the definitions of "infallibility" and "Magisterium" to include most every action and speech of the Pope and those Cardinals around him, but may exclude those Cardinals and bishops outside of Rome. A "conservative's" opinion is also subject to change depending on the current actions of the Holy Father. "Conservative" will be used it in quotation marks to avoid the misleading connotation of being diametrically opposed to liberalism or on the far right of the spectrum. Also since there only exists a desire to "conserve" only those traditions and practices of the past deemed appropriate at any given time by the present Pope. The quotation marks will also ensure a proper dissociation between the actual conservatives active prior to and during Vatican II (Ottaviani, Lefebvre, Fenton, etc.).

Both traditionalists and "conservatives" acknowledge the existence of problems in the Church but disagree as to their nature, extent, causes and remedies.

"Conservatives" see it as an "illness" — an incidental problem like a gangrene limb. In the English-speaking world, this problem may be limited to the actions of certain American bishops. "Conservatives" see the novelties of Vatican II and the New Mass as natural and acceptable developments in the course of the Church, but take issue with those seeking to expand upon those novelties, or take them to their next logical progression. They see the crisis in the Church as a societal issue that would have happened regardless of what actions the Church leadership had taken. Their solution is to return to Vatican II and embark on another attempt to "renew" the Church.

Traditionalists see the illness as a widespread cancer affecting the whole body put most particularly and critically the heart. They question the prudence of making significant changes in the Mass and the Church's pastoral orientation. They attribute the destruction to liberal and Modernist ideals given a certain degree of acceptability once the Church decided to stop fighting them with extreme vigilance. They see the Church leadership as sharing in the responsibility for the crisis due to its governance (or lack thereof). Their solution is not another attempt at a reform that may be "more in line with the 'spirit' of Vatican II" (shudder), but a return to the practices and beliefs of the Church that sustained it for hundreds of years prior.

- A Brief Defense of Traditionalism
Peter W. Miller

 

[sainthieu]

I wouldn't call them 'neo-conservative' Catholics. I wouldn't necessarily even call them 'conservatives'; I suspect they're just Catholics trying to rehabilitate their beloved church after all the agonies of the last decade. (Correct me if I'm wrong; I don't read that forum.) I can understand that.

I just tend to look askance at any idea that can only thrive in the absence of countervailing views. It's an admission of weakness.

 

[orthonorm]

Thanks Peter.

 

[PJ]

I wouldn't call them 'neo-conservative' Catholics. I wouldn't necessarily even call them 'conservatives'; I suspect they're just Catholics trying to rehabilitate their beloved church after all the agonies of the last decade. (Correct me if I'm wrong; I don't read that forum.) I can understand that.

I just tend to look askance at any idea that can only thrive in the absence of countervailing views. It's an admission of weakness.

To be fair, CAF does in fact have a Traditional Catholicism section. (I know some traditional Catholics have a very negative opinion of it, but personally I haven't really spent enough time there to have much of an opinion one way or another.)

 

[PJ]

Thanks Peter.

You're welcome.

 

[Kasatkin fan]

No disrespect intended towards the OP, but who cares what's being said on a Roman Catholic forum?  Why the surprise anyway when the name is CATHOLIC Answers?  Pretty clear to me.  At any rate, I respect their tactics; they've created a forum where Roman Catholics can go to get answers about the Roman Catholic faith and they don't want any other faith to detract or jeopardize their mission.  In others words, they're doing exactly what they set out to do.  So they won't let us Orthodox say what we want on THEIR forum?  Big deal!  That's not Machiavellian nor Orwelian.  They take their faith seriously (as do we) and they're in no mood to let their flock become confused or proselytized.  Obviously as an Eastern Orthodox Christian, I view their faith as heretical, but that's their forum so I don't understand why we Orthodox are constantly complaining about them not letting us say what we want.  If only we would concentrate on the log in our own eyes...  

Gabriel,

The point is that one can post there on any topic regarding pretty much any faith that one chooses to adopt - except, apparently, Orthodoxy. This latest extreme viewpoint taken by CAF even surpasses its prior purging of its Eastern Catholic and Orthodox members a few years back - an event that brought quite a few folk to this site.

While I don't 'care', I (and I suspect others as well) cannot help but be amazed at the public adoption of such a hostile viewpoint toward a Church and Faith which the Church of Rome has declared as being so dear to itself.

Many years,

Neil 

They apparently don't know how to answer Orthodoxy.

One of the first lessons I learned upon becoming Orthodox (actually a few weeks before) is that Catholics, for the most part, have no idea how to handle the idea of Orthodoxy and are prone to react in quite unpredictable ways.

I want to emphasize the "most part" bit, some Catholics handle it quite well.

 

[orthonorm]

Outside of the internets, where do you people find all these arguments with Catholics or Orthodox?

I see boards like this or CAF like some of the bars I would go to. Pretty much everyone was there to get into a little trouble, so really when you ended up hurting someone and getting hurt, it was pretty much a social contract.

I cannot for the life of me, outside discussions with fellow parishioners, remember the last time I had a discussion much less a debate about RC vs. OC or really anything religious. I just avoid the topics in the rare event they occur.

The one exception is a Palestinian guy who runs a local convenient store. He raps to me when others ain't around about how he can't stand Israel, cause he knows I am sympathetic. He asked, if I was Christian. I said I don't know yet, but I am trying to become part of the Orthodox Church, which he thought was great for a number of reasons I won't list here.

I am just saying.

 

[Jharek Carnelian]

That's all I can say about this 

Many years,

Neil

Neil,

This relates in part to a poster there who is a friend of mine who went by the name of GurneyHalleck1. He was banned recently for God alone knows what. Before he was banned he was considered moving from Catholicism to Orthodoxy (he was originally Anglican) and he discussed the subject with myself and a number of other posters, both Catholic and Orthodox and some like myself who had family from both Churches. He was a very popular poster and people were very annoyed when he was banned and the mods got hit with a lot of posts complaining about it. As a result Mr. Hilbert who wrote that thinks there is some organised conspiracy of some kind to push an Orthodox agenda or that our banned fellow member Scott is organising some secret super-villian scheme to destabilise the regime. First Eric made a ruling that no-one could discuss leaving the Church under any circumstances, now we've moved to this position.

I've had my own posts pruned there over the last couple of days at times. Once when partaking in a conversation about the real presence when I was told 'this is not an Orthodox thread' for talking about how Catholicism views various Church's Eucharists. Also when attempting to point out the differing understanding of the sacrament of marriage in the east and west.

It is a Catholic forum but it is ludicrous that now one of the largest Christian groups in the world cannot be mentioned in a particular sub-forum. What's even more odd is outside that sub-forum you can happily mention the Orthodox Churches still.

 

[sainthieu]

outside that sub-forum you can happily mention the Orthodox Churches

Maybe it's just the one paranoid moderator.

RC shoots itself in the foot by being overly dogmatic: if you're not with them, you're agin' em. It's sad.

 

[Asteriktos]

if you're not with them, you're agin' em.

That sounds familiar...  olice:

 

[Azurestone]

if you're not with them, you're agin' em.

That sounds familiar...  olice:

lol

 

[Irish Melkite]

It is a Catholic forum but it is ludicrous that now one of the largest Christian groups in the world cannot be mentioned in a particular sub-forum. What's even more odd is outside that sub-forum you can happily mention the Orthodox Churches still.

Jharek,

Thanks for the explanation - however, although one cannot post about the Orthodox in the Non-Catholic forum (to which Orthodox topics were relegated when they retitled the old Eastern Christianity forum as Eastern Catholic), one also can't post about Orthodox in the Eastern Catholic forum there, unless there has been a very recent change.

Many years,

Neil

 

[orthonorm]

if you're not with them, you're agin' em.

That sounds familiar...  olice:

lol

Yeah, I always wondered what would we do if we actually applied Christ's variation on that saying.

 

[JamesRottnek]

I just want to thank CAF.  I am forever in their debt.  You see, I first heard about the Orthodox Church through their forum 

 

[PJ]

That's all I can say about this 

Many years,

Neil

Neil,

This relates in part to a poster there who is a friend of mine who went by the name of GurneyHalleck1. He was banned recently for God alone knows what. Before he was banned he was considered moving from Catholicism to Orthodoxy (he was originally Anglican) and he discussed the subject with myself and a number of other posters, both Catholic and Orthodox and some like myself who had family from both Churches. He was a very popular poster and people were very annoyed when he was banned and the mods got hit with a lot of posts complaining about it. As a result Mr. Hilbert who wrote that thinks there is some organised conspiracy of some kind to push an Orthodox agenda or that our banned fellow member Scott is organising some secret super-villian scheme to destabilise the regime. First Eric made a ruling that no-one could discuss leaving the Church under any circumstances, now we've moved to this position.

Not to split hairs, but the actual statement was:

No more "I'm thinking of leaving the CC to become a _________" threads.

Effective immediately

(Unless you're referring to a different statement that I haven't seen.)

P.S. Now you've got me wondering: does that taboo include people joining the SSPX?

 

[Jharek Carnelian]

No that's the statement. I can't see the value of it as it actually works against keeping a member of the Church there I would have thought. More mature people won't be swayed to either leave or join by the ructions on an internet forum but for those wavering or more naive in their faith it may be the proverbial staw that breaks their back. I could understand a ruling against people saying they find it hard to remain members of the Church and who then go on to insult it. But to just put a blanket ban on any discussion of the subject was I felt not the right approach.

As to the ban in that part of the forum I think the Orthodox posters here who have commented that 'hey so what we're not Catholic?' are really taking the best approach.

 

[Azurestone]

No that's the statement. I can't see the value of it as it actually works against keeping a member of the Church there I would have thought. More mature people won't be swayed to either leave or join by the ructions on an internet forum but for those wavering or more naive in their faith it may be the proverbial staw that breaks their back. I could understand a ruling against people saying they find it hard to remain members of the Church and who then go on to insult it. But to just put a blanket ban on any discussion of the subject was I felt not the right approach.

As to the ban in that part of the forum I think the Orthodox posters here who have commented that 'hey so what we're not Catholic?' are really taking the best approach.

If you're familiar with Catholic Answers, then you should be familiar with to general naivety of the posters. Many of them have little education in Christian thought, much less Catholic theology. Considering it is specifically geared towards this type of poster (Catholic Answers),from an objective stance, I can't much blame them.

 

[ialmisry]

No disrespect intended towards the OP, but who cares what's being said on a Roman Catholic forum?  Why the surprise anyway when the name is CATHOLIC Answers?  Pretty clear to me.  At any rate, I respect their tactics; they've created a forum where Roman Catholics can go to get answers about the Roman Catholic faith and they don't want any other faith to detract or jeopardize their mission.  In others words, they're doing exactly what they set out to do.  So they won't let us Orthodox say what we want on THEIR forum?  Big deal!  That's not Machiavellian nor Orwelian.  They take their faith seriously (as do we) and they're in no mood to let their flock become confused or proselytized.  Obviously as an Eastern Orthodox Christian, I view their faith as heretical, but that's their forum so I don't understand why we Orthodox are constantly complaining about them not letting us say what we want.  If only we would concentrate on the log in our own eyes...  

I was going to complain about the non descript title, but then when I saw the link, I said "WoW!"

My big problem with CAF is some of the most bizarre statements are made about the Orthodox, which cannot be challenged.  They're not as bad as Fisheaters, but that's not saying much.

Btw, what was the post/er that brought this on?

 

[ialmisry]

That's all I can say about this 

Many years,

Neil

Neil,

This relates in part to a poster there who is a friend of mine who went by the name of GurneyHalleck1. He was banned recently for God alone knows what. Before he was banned he was considered moving from Catholicism to Orthodoxy (he was originally Anglican) and he discussed the subject with myself and a number of other posters, both Catholic and Orthodox and some like myself who had family from both Churches. He was a very popular poster and people were very annoyed when he was banned and the mods got hit with a lot of posts complaining about it. As a result Mr. Hilbert who wrote that thinks there is some organised conspiracy of some kind to push an Orthodox agenda or that our banned fellow member Scott is organising some secret super-villian scheme to destabilise the regime. First Eric made a ruling that no-one could discuss leaving the Church under any circumstances, now we've moved to this position.

I've had my own posts pruned there over the last couple of days at times. Once when partaking in a conversation about the real presence when I was told 'this is not an Orthodox thread' for talking about how Catholicism views various Church's Eucharists. Also when attempting to point out the differing understanding of the sacrament of marriage in the east and west.

It is a Catholic forum but it is ludicrous that now one of the largest Christian groups in the world cannot be mentioned in a particular sub-forum. What's even more odd is outside that sub-forum you can happily mention the Orthodox Churches still.

Is this the Scott that Papist is always confusing me with?

 

[deusveritasest]

And they say I'M the one with a martyrdom complex  :

Precisely, because you complain far more in amount and in quality and yet you aren't even treated as poorly here as we are at CAF.

 

[chris]

And they say I'M the one with a martyrdom complex  :

Precisely, because you complain far more in amount and in quality and yet you aren't even treated as poorly here as we are at CAF.

Hear, hear!

 

[PJ]

No that's the statement. I can't see the value of it as it actually works against keeping a member of the Church there I would have thought.

I don't want to over-generalize, but I've found that there are some Catholics who are more offended by someone thinking about leaving the Catholic Church, than by someone actually leaving the Catholic Church. Have you never heard one Catholic say to another something to the effect of "If you're thinking about leaving, than we wouldn't want you anyways"?

 

[Kasatkin fan]

Outside of the internets, where do you people find all these arguments with Catholics or Orthodox?

Arguments and debates are two very different things, but I personally often have discussions with Catholics I meet about Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

 

[orthonorm]

Outside of the internets, where do you people find all these arguments with Catholics or Orthodox?

Arguments and debates are two very different things, but I personally often have discussions with Catholics I meet about Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

I get that. I argue and rant all the time. I guess I just am around non-religious folk most of the time and just opt out of the conversations when they go religious lest I offend them.

When I am around Catholics, and they talk about their charity drives or whatnot, and ask what I am up to, I never ever get any questions or disparaging remarks or questions for debate, just a smile and encouragement.

Maybe it is because I spend too much time with women.

The only time, I've gotten anything flack, was twice and both mega-churchers. The comments were the same and was the tone, snide: you must like a lot of ritual.

I left it at that.

 

[Kasatkin fan]

Outside of the internets, where do you people find all these arguments with Catholics or Orthodox?

Arguments and debates are two very different things, but I personally often have discussions with Catholics I meet about Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

I get that. I argue and rant all the time. I guess I just am around non-religious folk most of the time and just opt out of the conversations when they go religious lest I offend them.

When I am around Catholics, and they talk about their charity drives or whatnot, and ask what I am up to, I never ever get any questions or disparaging remarks or questions for debate, just a smile and encouragement.

Maybe it is because I spend too much time with women.

The only time, I've gotten anything flack, was twice and both mega-churchers. The comments were the same and was the tone, snide: you must like a lot of ritual.

I left it at that.

Actually all but one of my real conversations with Catholics has happened in the context of work. I happen to work for a Christian company that is staffed mostly by Catholics and Orthodox, so the discussion on the distinctions comes up frequently.