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WR Orthodox, a Rite or More?

Shanghaiski

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phronesis said:
I really can't believe we keep hearing this "liturgical archaeology/anthropology" nonsense.

Several posters here have repeatedly explained why these charges don't stick, but there's a bigger issue:

SO WHAT?!?!

I mean, really. People throw around the liturgical archaeology label like it's some kind of trump card. But seriously, so what if it is? Why is it a bad thing? Which part of the WR are you saying is incompatible with the life of the Orthodox Church and faith? Which of the synods, saints, and patriarchs who've affirmed the WR do you believe were in error? I've yet to see one person actually explain what they mean by "liturgical archaeology/anthropology," let alone why that's a bad thing.

As I've pointed out before, the Church believes both in giving new life and resurrection; it seems quite appropriate to put those beliefs into action w/r/t a venerable and ancient rite whose practice had been forced to persist outside the Church.

Look, I get why people get nervous when it comes to liturgical innovation - and that is a healthy response. We shouldn't just be digging up any old assemblage of prayers and saying they're OK to use just because they're old. But that's not what's happening here. Here you have an entire devotional and liturgical rite that was faithfully lived out within the Orthodox faith from the earliest centuries of the church up through the schism. Thereafter, it persisted but only under the watch of a See that was in error. What the WR restores is this ancient rite, free from any later modifications that took place when the rite was no longer in use among the sees not in error. Is this really archaeology? We're just picking up where we left off. But even if it is, so what?

There is only one valid reason to oppose the WR and that is because you believe it is incompatible with the Orthodox faith. But to make that argument, you're going to need to excommunicate a lot of saints and every bishop before the schism.
Agreed.

It's not about archaeology. It's about getting our stuff back after the divorce.
 

Shanghaiski

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James2 said:
phronesis said:
Look, I get why people get nervous when it comes to liturgical innovation - and that is a healthy response. We shouldn't just be digging up any old assemblage of prayers and saying they're OK to use just because they're old. But that's not what's happening here. Here you have an entire devotional and liturgical rite that was faithfully lived out within the Orthodox faith from the earliest centuries of the church up through the schism. Thereafter, it persisted but only under the watch of a See that was in error. What the WR restores is this ancient rite, free from any later modifications that took place when the rite was no longer in use among the sees not in error. Is this really archaeology? We're just picking up where we left off. But even if it is, so what?
Generally true, although there are a couple of pre-schism references to "merits" of saints which were excised from the Antiochian liturgy of St. Gregory.
I thought that was a misunderstanding. Prior to the schism (and a couple centuries afterward), "meritas" did not refer to there being some great pool of extra grace from the works of the saints.
 

Shanghaiski

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Deacon Lance said:
Misplaced Book said:
The fact that those things were part of the "original Liturgy" is irrelevant to the larger question.   To attempt to reinsert or reestablish practices that have been dead for a thousand years is itself innovation and not "organic" at all.   It is the same spirit that some flavors of Protestantism evoke when they attempt to "bring back First Century practices."   What is the difference?  Things were part of the Tradition then but they no longer are.
They haven't been dead for a thousand years.  They have been in use, by Churches the Orthodox may consider heretical and schismatic, but they have been in use.  Don't the Orthodox always proclaim we don't know where the Spirit isn't? Did the Western Church lose every grace of the Spirit, every bit of holiness?  I don't think the hiearchy of the Orthodox Church thinks so.

edit for typos
I think a strong case can be made that the Western Church through schism and heresy lost, certainly, the grace of the Holy Spirit that came through the sacraments--and that any grace that may be there operated in spite of, not because of, those sacraments. But that is another question entirely when one looks at rites. Just because a group goes into schism doesn't mean its prayers, composed by Orthodox, prayed by Orthodox, sanctifying the faithful, have ceased to be Orthodox. Prayers are neither baptized, nor do they fall into heresy and schism, provided they are not corrupted. And what changes were made after the schism are not hard to see and fix.
 

WPM

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Needs more emphasis on the Western-style of worship service
 
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To primuspilus:

"Ruptures can be healed."

REPLY:  Very true.  However, some wounds require a band aid...and others require reconstructive surgery.

"Which can be corrected. Just look at Iconoclasm."

REPLY:  Yes, but lets not pretend that all situations are equal.

"So when/if Rome returns, they better learn the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom? What about the Hagia Sophia? Its been 600 years. So we should stop praying for it to come back to Christian hands? How long is too long for something to be "organic"? Further, the Western rite was not dead for 1,000 years. More like 500 when you account for the fact that there was a Western ruling monastery on Mt. Athos."

REPLY:  No...but there will need to a very serious discussion as to what can be kept, and what must be discarded.   Latin Ecclesiology and Life has become so intertwined with its Errors, that separating them will require the "major reconstructive surgery" to go back to my earlier analogy.    One Monastery on the Holy Mountain does not translate into the vast expanse of Church life.

We should never stop praying for anything.

"Based on what findings?"

REPLY:  I was trying to be charitable and concede the point (which I have no doubt is true) that souls have benefited from what you are doing.  If they haven't, what is the point?  Calling your own position into doubt in an attempt to out me as a hypocrite or troll isn't putting glitter on this conversation.

"Because anyone who has read more than 5 minutes into Uniatism knows the WR is nowhere close to it. Unless said person wants to use it as an argument and remain blissfully ignorant (yes, Im looking at you Met. Kallistos)."

REPLY:  I never said that the Union of Brest or any of that nonsense is the same as the Western Rite, which is voluntary and an act of Pastoral Economy.
However,  "Perception is Reality" for many people, and for any Church to grow, it requires some evangelization and "promotion" to use crude secular terms.  How will you "sell" the Western Rite?  What about those disaffected Anglicans and Latins out there who may want to keep their traditions?  Orthodox-Western Rite:  You don't have to be Byzantine to be Orthodox.  That's your draw, is it not?  I'm saying this because that is how it will come off.   The comparison comes in, because Eastern Catholics say that "You don't have to be Western to be Catholic."  And that they can "keep their traditions" and be in union with Rome.   Western Rite people can "keep their traditions" and be in union with Canonical Orthodoxy.   That is where comparisons to the Unia come in.  No sensible person would attempt to stack up their histories or engage in any moral equivocation....this is about the stripped down, fundamental perception between the two.   My post was not an attack but a question/point of discussion.   How can the Western Rite grow and avoid this mess?  

Perhaps it can't.  Maybe the masks need to come off on both sides,  and both sides admit that Ecumenism of Return is the default position of both sides.   I'm fine with that.  Let's not dance around the point.

"No, its defeating because people still hold to the Byzantine = Orthodox nonsense."

REPLY:  And those people are wrong.
 
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phronesis said:
I really can't believe we keep hearing this "liturgical archaeology/anthropology" nonsense.

Several posters here have repeatedly explained why these charges don't stick, but there's a bigger issue:

SO WHAT?!?!

I mean, really. People throw around the liturgical archaeology label like it's some kind of trump card. But seriously, so what if it is? Why is it a bad thing? Which part of the WR are you saying is incompatible with the life of the Orthodox Church and faith? Which of the synods, saints, and patriarchs who've affirmed the WR do you believe were in error? I've yet to see one person actually explain what they mean by "liturgical archaeology/anthropology," let alone why that's a bad thing.

As I've pointed out before, the Church believes both in giving new life and resurrection; it seems quite appropriate to put those beliefs into action w/r/t a venerable and ancient rite whose practice had been forced to persist outside the Church.

Look, I get why people get nervous when it comes to liturgical innovation - and that is a healthy response. We shouldn't just be digging up any old assemblage of prayers and saying they're OK to use just because they're old. But that's not what's happening here. Here you have an entire devotional and liturgical rite that was faithfully lived out within the Orthodox faith from the earliest centuries of the church up through the schism. Thereafter, it persisted but only under the watch of a See that was in error. What the WR restores is this ancient rite, free from any later modifications that took place when the rite was no longer in use among the sees not in error. Is this really archaeology? We're just picking up where we left off. But even if it is, so what?

There is only one valid reason to oppose the WR and that is because you believe it is incompatible with the Orthodox faith. But to make that argument, you're going to need to excommunicate a lot of saints and every bishop before the schism.
Innovation, as it plays out in our modern context is something I believe to be corrosive, and very dangerous.  The Latin Church is a lesson on this point.   American Culture itself was born of this spirit of Innovation and the Worship of Progress.  It is the stream we swim in, it is a very very fine line, and very dangerous to the Faith.  It needs to be Transformed, not Adopted.  This may seem like needless hyperbole and exaggerations, but the Spiritual Wreckage of Western Religious Life says otherwise.  It is this trauma that causes the Reactions to "Innovation."   The calls for "understanding" go both ways.

I don't oppose the Western Rite.     My point/question was in the context of Ecumenism and how the Western Rite will be able to grow and fit in into that framework.  "Sheep Stealing" is a very sensitive issue, and I had that in mind as I framed the post.   I am beginning to see that that is perhaps the wrong way to approach the question.  

Forgive me if anything I said offended anyone.   I understand that some folks might be defensive. Please remember that not every doubt is an attack.



 

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Great questions by Misplaced Book, and superb answers all around. I don't think you've said anything offensive and it's healthy to ask these kinds of questions.

In regards to much of what has been said and asked, I am reminded of the recent remarks of Fr. Thomas Hopko on Ancient Faith Radio (titled "The Slippery Slope" from Speaking the Truth in Love):

"I really think, we have to be mature enough, enlightened enough, careful and responsible enough, in our Church, to make changes that the conditions of our life and culture compel us to do. And it's not just for convenience or prudence, but it can be for societal changes, and it may be for the restoration of something that has been lost. Why not? Why cannot there be things in society that require us to make changes in our behavior, and even in our worship? There are Russians who, any little change you would make about anything, is considered to be a dangerous and poisonous changing of tradition. Well, why? The true Church is not the perfect Church. People make mistakes, things come into existence, things go out of existence; it's a living organism inspired by the Holy Spirit. You have to have discernment, that's why you have bishops and clergy, scholars, holy monks and nuns, so that we don't lose the real tradition."
 

Shanghaiski

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Sleeper said:
Great questions by Misplaced Book, and superb answers all around. I don't think you've said anything offensive and it's healthy to ask these kinds of questions.

In regards to much of what has been said and asked, I am reminded of the recent remarks of Fr. Thomas Hopko on Ancient Faith Radio (titled "The Slippery Slope" from Speaking the Truth in Love):

"I really think, we have to be mature enough, enlightened enough, careful and responsible enough, in our Church, to make changes that the conditions of our life and culture compel us to do. And it's not just for convenience or prudence, but it can be for societal changes, and it may be for the restoration of something that has been lost. Why not? Why cannot there be things in society that require us to make changes in our behavior, and even in our worship? There are Russians who, any little change you would make about anything, is considered to be a dangerous and poisonous changing of tradition. Well, why? The true Church is not the perfect Church. People make mistakes, things come into existence, things go out of existence; it's a living organism inspired by the Holy Spirit. You have to have discernment, that's why you have bishops and clergy, scholars, holy monks and nuns, so that we don't lose the real tradition."
And it's important to recognize how much the Church has changed what it does over time. For example, we no longer start the Liturgy at one place in the city and process to another. Fasts used to be shorter, but services used to be longer. More people used to become monastics than today--this is actually problematic for our hierarchical structure, giving a much smaller pool to draw from and by extension fewer bishops than may be needed.
 

Shanghaiski

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Is the so-called Eastern Rite more than a rite? I don't think so. To me, a rite is something encompassing a way of prayer and possibly administration and praxis. Essentially, however, all the basic and essential elements of Orthodox Christianity should be there, no matter the rite. These don't come about automatically, however. The prayers are a means to communication with God, the sacraments for sanctification, the canons and the practices for good order.
 

primuspilus

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However, some wounds require a band aid...and others require reconstructive surgery
The medicine is already been prescribed. Return to the Pre-Schism West which the WR is. Whether Rome or anyone else takes their medicine is another issue entirely.

Yes, but lets not pretend that all situations are equal
Im not saying they are, but Im saying that major problems can be corrected, and its not an insurmountable obstacle.

I was trying to be charitable and concede the point (which I have no doubt is true) that souls have benefited from what you are doing.  If they haven't, what is the point?
You said that you doubted that many souls have benefited. I asked for evidence. I wasn't calling you a hypocrite. I just asked for evidence to back up your assumption.

Calling your own position into doubt in an attempt to out me as a hypocrite or troll isn't putting glitter on this conversation
If you think I was attacking you I apologize. I was not.

How will you "sell" the Western Rite?
We dont have to "sell" it. We're not con men.
What about those disaffected Anglicans and Latins out there who may want to keep their traditions?
If those traditions are Orthodox then why not? The WR isn't like Rome where as long as you bow your knee to the Pope you can believe whatever you want.

hat is where comparisons to the Unia come in.  No sensible person would attempt to stack up their histories or engage in any moral equivocation....this is about the stripped down, fundamental perception between the two.  My post was not an attack but a question/point of discussion.  How can the Western Rite grow and avoid this mess?
The difference is pretty obvious. With Rome, you can believe whatever you wish, as long as you bow your knee to Rome. Melkites can believe all they want that the Pope is primus inter pares, while they bow their knee to him and obey his whims.

With the WR, we have to be completely orthodox and Orthodox in every way. Every other argument concerning the WR and the Unia is really a non sequitur.

Maybe the masks need to come off on both sides,  and both sides admit that Ecumenism of Return is the default position of both sides.  I'm fine with that.  Let's not dance around the point
The WR isn't dancing around anything. The WR is giving people a chance to see that there is a time before Rome's innovations, and see what the western half Orthodoxy looked like before the schism. That return is possible without having to be ethno-centric (as they see it).

sheep stealing
That is something everyone wants to avoid. I cant speak for everyone, but in my town, there are 2 Orthodox churches. The Greek church has no priest, and only has services maybe twice a month. So quite a few come to our Church (especially on major feasts) but when a priest shows up there they go o their home church. Very few (I can only think of one family) has actually switched to our church "full time".

PP
 

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Shanghaiski said:
Is the so-called Eastern Rite more than a rite? I don't think so.
Me neither. But most of the Netodox seem to have an idea that Eastern rite = Orthodoxy whereas Western rite = just a rite.
 
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To primuspilus:

"The medicine is already been prescribed. Return to the Pre-Schism West which the WR is. Whether Rome or anyone else takes their medicine is another issue entirely."

REPLY:  I agree.

"Im not saying they are, but Im saying that major problems can be corrected, and its not an insurmountable obstacle."

REPLY:  I agree.

"You said that you doubted that many souls have benefited. I asked for evidence. I wasn't calling you a hypocrite. I just asked for evidence to back up your assumption."

REPLY:  Re-read my post #74.  I said that "I have NO doubt that...."

"If you think I was attacking you I apologize. I was not."

REPLY:  I apologize as well.

"We dont have to "sell" it. We're not con men."

REPLY:  No, you aren't.  BUT, for the Western Rite to grow it has to be made to be seen as a viable alternative for Western Christians who for whatever reason are wary of Our Liturgy and Traditions.  I used the word sell to put it in more general layman's terms, although a better word could have been chosen.

"If those traditions are Orthodox then why not? The WR isn't like Rome where as long as you bow your knee to the Pope you can believe whatever you want."

REPLY: No argument here.

"The difference is pretty obvious. With Rome, you can believe whatever you wish, as long as you bow your knee to Rome. Melkites can believe all they want that the Pope is primus inter pares, while they bow their knee to him and obey his whims.

With the WR, we have to be completely orthodox and Orthodox in every way. Every other argument concerning the WR and the Unia is really a non sequitur."

REPLY:  That is a bit of an oversimplification of the Latin position.  They do have boundaries, although thos are being pushed further out as time goes on.  Eastern Catholics make the same claim about "keeping your traditions" but it is reversed.  This is the fact of the matter.  I'm not saying they are the same,  only that the two can be compared in respect to their "selling point" to the other side of the fence.

"The WR isn't dancing around anything. The WR is giving people a chance to see that there is a time before Rome's innovations, and see what the western half Orthodoxy looked like before the schism. That return is possible without having to be ethno-centric (as they see it)."

REPLY:  I don't know if I would go so far as to say that this is what the Western Half of Orthodoxy looked like, but I do agree that it is good to offer a path for those people.

"That is something everyone wants to avoid. I cant speak for everyone, but in my town, there are 2 Orthodox churches. The Greek church has no priest, and only has services maybe twice a month. So quite a few come to our Church (especially on major feasts) but when a priest shows up there they go o their home church. Very few (I can only think of one family) has actually switched to our church "full time".  "

REPLY:  This is within Canonical Orthodoxy, though.  If I was a Traditionalist Roman Catholic and an Orthodox Western Rite Church opened up down the street, I would certainly get ticked off and view it as encroachment. 

This is the main thrust of my points.  How can the growth of the Western Rite occur without this clash?  I would be disinclined to worry about it, but in the interest of neighborly relations it is inevitably a consideration.
 

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I do not think a thing's worth or validity should in any way be based upon "growth," as nice as it would be for more parishes to come into Holy Orthodoxy via the Western tradition. It's just not a good measuring stick. I rather like the Right Rev. Bp. BASIL's attitude:

"You are the inheritors of a precious treasure: the authentic and Orthodox rites that nourished thousands now in the Kingdom of Heaven. The Orthodox Church thanks you for preserving this tradition all these years, so that it could be restored to her through Western Rite Orthodox parishes...I don’t care if Western Orthodoxy grows. Let me qualify that. This comment does not have to do just with the Western Rite, although I’m speaking in a Western Rite context now. I am not concerned about growth and numbers at all. Of course growth and numbers are good because they mean that more souls are being saved. In that sense I do hope that all come to the knowledge of the truth. And in that sense I am glad that so many people and parishes have become Western Orthodox.

But the worth and validity of the Western Rite do not depend on growth or numbers. What if only a single parish were to survive by God’s grace? What if somehow all of the seeds that you have planted and have tended for so long shrivel up, like many churches do in many places—Byzantine and Western Rite and Catholic and Lutheran and Methodist? If only one Western Orthodox parish flourishes someplace, then it is to the glory of God. It provides a home for someone of the Orthodox faith to worship God in a liturgical context in which they feel not only comfortable but authentic.

The faith that you hold, combined with the rite in which you practice that faith, is more important than anything else."
 

primuspilus

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"The medicine is already been prescribed. Return to the Pre-Schism West which the WR is. Whether Rome or anyone else takes their medicine is another issue entirely."

REPLY:  I agree.

"Im not saying they are, but Im saying that major problems can be corrected, and its not an insurmountable obstacle."

REPLY:  I agree.

"You said that you doubted that many souls have benefited. I asked for evidence. I wasn't calling you a hypocrite. I just asked for evidence to back up your assumption."

REPLY:  Re-read my post #74.  I said that "I have NO doubt that...."

"If you think I was attacking you I apologize. I was not."

REPLY:  I apologize as well.

"We dont have to "sell" it. We're not con men."

REPLY:  No, you aren't.  BUT, for the Western Rite to grow it has to be made to be seen as a viable alternative for Western Christians who for whatever reason are wary of Our Liturgy and Traditions.  I used the word sell to put it in more general layman's terms, although a better word could have been chosen.

"If those traditions are Orthodox then why not? The WR isn't like Rome where as long as you bow your knee to the Pope you can believe whatever you want."

REPLY: No argument here.

"The difference is pretty obvious. With Rome, you can believe whatever you wish, as long as you bow your knee to Rome. Melkites can believe all they want that the Pope is primus inter pares, while they bow their knee to him and obey his whims.
You and I are in complete agreement on alot of stuff it seems.

That is a bit of an oversimplification of the Latin position
You're absolutely correct, I am oversimplifying for conversation's sake.

They do have boundaries, although thos are being pushed further out as time goes on
The clown and guitar masses, along with the "Charismatic" Catholics prove this.

astern Catholics make the same claim about "keeping your traditions" but it is reversed.  This is the fact of the matter
You're correct, and unfortunately, no amount of arguing can change this, it seems.

This is within Canonical Orthodoxy, though
I thought that was what you were talking about. Sorry.

If I was a Traditionalist Roman Catholic and an Orthodox Western Rite Church opened up down the street, I would certainly get ticked off and view it as encroachment
I would totally see where a Roman Catholic was coming from if they complained about this.

How can the growth of the Western Rite occur without this clash?
I would assume, dont sheep steal, and just be open to disenfranchised Anglicans and Roman Catholics who are wanting to rid themselves of all the nonsense....of course that is again, an oversimplification on my part.

PP
 

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I am of the opinion that neither ER or WR Orthodoxy will grow very well in America until the Orthodox stop walking on eggshells with the Protestants and RCs and start preaching that one is not a true Christian unless they are united to Christ's bride. I pray both will flourish in our spiritually thirsty land.

In Christ,
Andrew
 

primuspilus

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Shlomlokh said:
I am of the opinion that neither ER or WR Orthodoxy will grow very well in America until the Orthodox stop walking on eggshells with the Protestants and RCs and start preaching that one is not a true Christian unless they are united to Christ's bride. I pray both will flourish in our spiritually thirsty land.

In Christ,
Andrew
^This.

PP
 

AntoniousNikolas

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Shlomlokh said:
I am of the opinion that neither ER or WR Orthodoxy will grow very well in America until the Orthodox stop walking on eggshells with the Protestants and RCs and start preaching that one is not a true Christian unless they are united to Christ's bride. I pray both will flourish in our spiritually thirsty land.

In Christ,
Andrew

POTM ^
 

Shanghaiski

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Antonious Nikolas said:
Shlomlokh said:
I am of the opinion that neither ER or WR Orthodoxy will grow very well in America until the Orthodox stop walking on eggshells with the Protestants and RCs and start preaching that one is not a true Christian unless they are united to Christ's bride. I pray both will flourish in our spiritually thirsty land.

In Christ,
Andrew

POTM ^
It's a bold statement and the gist is true, but more and more folks in America have no church affiliation. From what I've seen, there is little being done for them.
 

Shlomlokh

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Shanghaiski said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
Shlomlokh said:
I am of the opinion that neither ER or WR Orthodoxy will grow very well in America until the Orthodox stop walking on eggshells with the Protestants and RCs and start preaching that one is not a true Christian unless they are united to Christ's bride. I pray both will flourish in our spiritually thirsty land.

In Christ,
Andrew

POTM ^
It's a bold statement and the gist is true, but more and more folks in America have no church affiliation. From what I've seen, there is little being done for them.
This is true, too, unfortunately. :(

In Christ,
Andrew
 

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primuspilus said:
That is something everyone wants to avoid. I cant speak for everyone, but in my town, there are 2 Orthodox churches. The Greek church has no priest, and only has services maybe twice a month. So quite a few come to our Church (especially on major feasts) but when a priest shows up there they go o their home church.
How do they like your church?
 

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Deacon Lance said:
Mor Ephrem said:
If you have a list of legitimate Western customs, canons, etc. that you feel are disregarded or viewed as heterodox within Eastern Orthodoxy, or if you would compile such a list, I for one would be interested in reading it.  At least some of those things, I'm sure, would also affect us (OO): for example, none of our Churches prohibits multiple men from being ordained to the same rank within a single Liturgy (in fact, it is often done, even for the ordination of bishops).   
Unleavened bread for the Eucharist, Baptism by affusion, Icons not in conformity with Byzantine canons are three that seem to come up alot.
The Antiochian Western Rite uses leavened bread for the Eucharist. The Western Rite parish in Fort Worth has an adult sized Baptismal font for full immersion. If we took all the icons out of Byzantine Rite Churches that do not conform to Byzantine standards, there would be a lot of older Byzantine Rite Orthodox Churches without icons.

Fr.  John W. Morris
 

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Alpo said:
primuspilus said:
That is something everyone wants to avoid. I cant speak for everyone, but in my town, there are 2 Orthodox churches. The Greek church has no priest, and only has services maybe twice a month. So quite a few come to our Church (especially on major feasts) but when a priest shows up there they go o their home church.
How do they like your church?
They love it, because we're all pretty tightly knit to one degree or another. Not only that, but we're active in the life of our Church. A bunch show up for major feast days, because they feel that we really celebrate the feasts as we should. This all being said, not alot have truly joined because St. George's (the Greek Church) is their church, but they recognize that we're all Orthodox so we're all members of the Body regardless.

Unfortunately, they never stay long enough to teach me how to make proper Dolmathes :)

PP
 

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WR has not caused any fuss? Glad to hear it.
 
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Though I know that there is important theology and practices involved, Primuspilus comment illustrates that some of the friction between western/eastern customs/rites is politics amongst the hierarchy and particular apologist that the average lay people can not be as concerned with. People can come together if they are allowed to and have leaders willing to do it.
 

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Alpo said:
dcointin said:
My own parish priest seems to view the WR as a liturgical rite alone.
IMO a good approach. WRO should draw from Eastern sources and ERO should draw from Western sources. The teaching of Church is neither Western nor Eastern but Catholic. I like how bishop Jerome put it:

Bishop Jerome of Manhattan said:
In other words, to be Orthodox means to be in union with the whole Orthodox Church, and to accept all of its heritage.
Christianity is Catholic, as you say, but it is also a Middle Eastern religion.
 

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Alpo said:
WR has not caused any fuss? Glad to hear it.
Well, that's not ENTIRELY accurate. There have been a few folks who have come in, expecting the Liturgy they know, and have never heard of the Western Rite, and leave very quickly, thinking us a schismatic group, or stay and ask us how we can be called Orthodox and not use the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

This comes usually from folks who are visiting town and see that St. George's is closed (which it often times, is) so they come to our church.

For the local Roman Catholic churches, they tend to be really cool about it all. Some have inquired, but I dont know if any have joined.

PP
 

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primuspilus said:
Alpo said:
WR has not caused any fuss? Glad to hear it.
Well, that's not ENTIRELY accurate. There have been a few folks who have come in, expecting the Liturgy they know, and have never heard of the Western Rite, and leave very quickly, thinking us a schismatic group, or stay and ask us how we can be called Orthodox and not use the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

This comes usually from folks who are visiting town and see that St. George's is closed (which it often times, is) so they come to our church.

For the local Roman Catholic churches, they tend to be really cool about it all. Some have inquired, but I dont know if any have joined.

PP
May I suggest that you put the name of the Archdiocese, the Metropolitan and your Bishop  on your sign and in the bulletin so that people will know that you are canonically Orthodox. We had a Western Rite Vespers service at the Archdiocesan convention, but most Eastern Orthodox including those in the Antiochian Archdiocese which has an active and growing Western Rite have never actually attended a Western Rite service. I have only been to a few Vespers and 2 Western Rite Divine Liturgies during 34 years as an Antiochian Orthodox Priest.

Fr. John W. Morris
 

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frjohnmorris said:
primuspilus said:
Alpo said:
WR has not caused any fuss? Glad to hear it.
Well, that's not ENTIRELY accurate. There have been a few folks who have come in, expecting the Liturgy they know, and have never heard of the Western Rite, and leave very quickly, thinking us a schismatic group, or stay and ask us how we can be called Orthodox and not use the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

This comes usually from folks who are visiting town and see that St. George's is closed (which it often times, is) so they come to our church.

For the local Roman Catholic churches, they tend to be really cool about it all. Some have inquired, but I dont know if any have joined.

PP
May I suggest that you put the name of the Archdiocese, the Metropolitan and your Bishop  on your sign and in the bulletin so that people will know that you are canonically Orthodox. We had a Western Rite Vespers service at the Archdiocesan convention, but most Eastern Orthodox including those in the Antiochian Archdiocese which has an active and growing Western Rite have never actually attended a Western Rite service. I have only been to a few Vespers and 2 Western Rite Divine Liturgies during 34 years as an Antiochian Orthodox Priest.

Fr. John W. Morris
We have the name of the Archdiocese and the Rite. I think we have Met. Phillip's name somewhere, but I dont recall.

PP
 

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primuspilus said:
frjohnmorris said:
primuspilus said:
Alpo said:
WR has not caused any fuss? Glad to hear it.
Well, that's not ENTIRELY accurate. There have been a few folks who have come in, expecting the Liturgy they know, and have never heard of the Western Rite, and leave very quickly, thinking us a schismatic group, or stay and ask us how we can be called Orthodox and not use the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

Fr. John W. Morris
This comes usually from folks who are visiting town and see that St. George's is closed (which it often times, is) so they come to our church.

For the local Roman Catholic churches, they tend to be really cool about it all. Some have inquired, but I dont know if any have joined.

PP
May I suggest that you put the name of the Archdiocese, the Metropolitan and your Bishop  on your sign and in the bulletin so that people will know that you are canonically Orthodox. We had a Western Rite Vespers service at the Archdiocesan convention, but most Eastern Orthodox including those in the Antiochian Archdiocese which has an active and growing Western Rite have never actually attended a Western Rite service. I have only been to a few Vespers and 2 Western Rite Divine Liturgies during 34 years as an Antiochian Orthodox Priest.

Fr. John W. Morris
We have the name of the Archdiocese and the Rite. I think we have Met. Phillip's name somewhere, but I dont recall.

PP
Eastern Orthodox do not like change or anything that is different from what they are used to seeing and experiencing. Because only about 10% of the Antiochian Archdiocese is Western Rite, most Orthodox, even those in our Archdiocese which has an active and growing Western Rite, do not know that there is even  Western Rite Orthodoxy. I suspect that those who are not in the two American Orthodox Churches with the Western Rite, us and ROCOR know that there are Western Rite parishes within Orthodoxy. I was very happy that they had a Western Rite Vespers service at our Archdiocesan Convention because it exposes more of our people to the  Western Rite.
 

primuspilus

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Because only about 10% of the Antiochian Archdiocese is Western Rite, most Orthodox, even those in our Archdiocese which has an active and growing Western Rite, do not know that there is even  Western Rite Orthodoxy
Judging by some folk's responses, quite a few that do know about it try to explain away its Orthodoxy (and orthodoxy).

I was very happy that they had a Western Rite Vespers service at our Archdiocesan Convention because it exposes more of our people to the  Western Rite
Is it really that different?

PP
 

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primuspilus said:
Because only about 10% of the Antiochian Archdiocese is Western Rite, most Orthodox, even those in our Archdiocese which has an active and growing Western Rite, do not know that there is even  Western Rite Orthodoxy
Judging by some folk's responses, quite a few that do know about it try to explain away its Orthodoxy (and orthodoxy).

I was very happy that they had a Western Rite Vespers service at our Archdiocesan Convention because it exposes more of our people to the  Western Rite
Is it really that different?

PP
The more Eastern Rite Orthodox are exposed to the beauty of the Western Rite, the more will accept it as Orthodox.

Fr. John W. Morris
 

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primuspilus said:
I was very happy that they had a Western Rite Vespers service at our Archdiocesan Convention because it exposes more of our people to the  Western Rite
Is it really that different?
Yes.  Do you really have no experience with Eastern Rite Orthodoxy, but only Western?  Just curious, not a criticism at all.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
primuspilus said:
I was very happy that they had a Western Rite Vespers service at our Archdiocesan Convention because it exposes more of our people to the  Western Rite
Is it really that different?
Yes.  Do you really have no experience with Eastern Rite Orthodoxy, but only Western?  Just curious, not a criticism at all.
If you are asking me. I have been a Byzantine Rite Eastern Orthodox Priest for almost 34 years. I have had only limited experience with Western Rite Orthodoxy. I would have have no idea how to serve the Western Rite or do the chant properly. I only know the Antiochian expression of the Byzantine Rite. I have been to 2 Armenian Liturgies and several Coptic Liturgies. I have never been to a Syriac Rite Liturgy.

Fr. John W. Morris
 

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Would you like to serve in WR? Would you need any special permission from your bishop to do that?
 

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Alpo said:
Would you like to serve in WR? Would you need any special permission from your bishop to do that?
I would need special permission to serve the Western Rite. I would also have to receive proper training to know how to do it. I have the Western Rite liturgical books, but reading rubrics and seeing it actually done are two separate things. The Western Rite has its own traditions. For example, the way that they cense is different. I have no idea how to chant properly in the Western tradition. The same thing would be true for a Western Rite Priest, before he could serve the Byzantine Rite, he would have to be properly trained.

Fr. John W. Morris
 

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frjohnmorris said:
If you are asking me. I have been a Byzantine Rite Eastern Orthodox Priest for almost 34 years. I have had only limited experience with Western Rite Orthodoxy. I would have have no idea how to serve the Western Rite or do the chant properly. I only know the Antiochian expression of the Byzantine Rite. I have been to 2 Armenian Liturgies and several Coptic Liturgies. I have never been to a Syriac Rite Liturgy.

Fr. John W. Morris
Sorry, Father, my question was for primuspilus (but I was glad to read your reply anyway!). 
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
primuspilus said:
I was very happy that they had a Western Rite Vespers service at our Archdiocesan Convention because it exposes more of our people to the  Western Rite
Is it really that different?
Yes.  Do you really have no experience with Eastern Rite Orthodoxy, but only Western?  Just curious, not a criticism at all.
I have never been to an ER anything. Vespers, Liturgy, nothing...well, almost nothing.

When I was a Baptist missionary in Russia, we accidentally stumbled in on a Patriarchial Liturgy at the Cathedral of the Dormition, but I had no idea what was going on.

PP
 

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primuspilus said:
Mor Ephrem said:
primuspilus said:
I was very happy that they had a Western Rite Vespers service at our Archdiocesan Convention because it exposes more of our people to the  Western Rite
Is it really that different?
Yes.  Do you really have no experience with Eastern Rite Orthodoxy, but only Western?  Just curious, not a criticism at all.
I have never been to an ER anything. Vespers, Liturgy, nothing...well, almost nothing.

When I was a Baptist missionary in Russia, we accidentally stumbled in on a Patriarchial Liturgy at the Cathedral of the Dormition, but I had no idea what was going on.

PP
Actually if you outline the Western Rite Mass and compare it to an outline of the Byzantine Rite Divine Liturgy, you will see that the outline is identical. We Easterners just fill in the blanks differently.

Fr. John W. Morris
 

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frjohnmorris said:
primuspilus said:
Mor Ephrem said:
primuspilus said:
I was very happy that they had a Western Rite Vespers service at our Archdiocesan Convention because it exposes more of our people to the  Western Rite
Is it really that different?
Yes.  Do you really have no experience with Eastern Rite Orthodoxy, but only Western?  Just curious, not a criticism at all.
I have never been to an ER anything. Vespers, Liturgy, nothing...well, almost nothing.

When I was a Baptist missionary in Russia, we accidentally stumbled in on a Patriarchial Liturgy at the Cathedral of the Dormition, but I had no idea what was going on.

PP
Actually if you outline the Western Rite Mass and compare it to an outline of the Byzantine Rite Divine Liturgy, you will see that the outline is identical. We Easterners just fill in the blanks differently.

Fr. John W. Morris
This this this this this! Time eleventy billion. THIS.
 

primuspilus

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frjohnmorris said:
primuspilus said:
Mor Ephrem said:
primuspilus said:
I was very happy that they had a Western Rite Vespers service at our Archdiocesan Convention because it exposes more of our people to the  Western Rite
Is it really that different?
Yes.  Do you really have no experience with Eastern Rite Orthodoxy, but only Western?  Just curious, not a criticism at all.
I have never been to an ER anything. Vespers, Liturgy, nothing...well, almost nothing.

When I was a Baptist missionary in Russia, we accidentally stumbled in on a Patriarchial Liturgy at the Cathedral of the Dormition, but I had no idea what was going on.

PP
Actually if you outline the Western Rite Mass and compare it to an outline of the Byzantine Rite Divine Liturgy, you will see that the outline is identical. We Easterners just fill in the blanks differently.

Fr. John W. Morris
Thats what a group of Greeks visiting from New Jersey told us. St. George's was closed and they came to our parish. They loved it and said every time they're down here they're coming to our parish.

Too bad not all ER's understand this. Even some priests, unfortunately.

PP
 
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