Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread

Homosexuality comes up frequenbtly on Orthodox forums because..

  • Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet.

    Votes: 20 27.8%
  • Since drunkeness, adultery, theft and dishonesty have been eradicated it's the only sin left to figh

    Votes: 10 13.9%
  • Apparently most Orthodox Christians have lots of gay family, friends and associates

    Votes: 7 9.7%
  • Orthodox forums attract a lot of self torturing closet cases and men with doubts about thier own mas

    Votes: 20 27.8%
  • Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet.

    Votes: 15 20.8%

  • Total voters
    72
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Amdetsion

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alice said:
Dear Tamara,

You are one of the few sane, objective, knowledgeable and charitable voices here on this matter.

Our young people are being sexually corrupted by society, and only those parents who wish to live in a 'fool's paradise' are not aware of this. Sexual corruption, whether homo or heterosexual, is happening in our elementary schools, our high schools, and most especially in the dormitories and classrooms of our colleges and universities, whom we pay top dollar to.

As for homosexuals, I,  too, like gay men and have worked with them in the fashion and interior design industries. Not wanting the 'lifestyle' taught and encouraged to our children has nothing to do with being a right wing kook. or prejudiced.  It has everything to do with being Christian and wanting to adhere to a Christian lifestyle.

Again, thank you for your sane and well written post. It seems that we are both 'cool'  and 'with it' enough mothers to appeal to those who might want to label mothers/and women as knowing not of what they speak.

I am appalled by the way that Calligraphqueen was addressed and labeled. No one should be hurt like that, or be  put on the defensive like that, on a *Christian*  forum.

In Christ our Lord,
Alice
Thanks Alice!

I have not posted on this thread but have read a few posts.

Some who post on this fourm have no idea what Christian virtue is. I am sorry that you had to experience such irresponsible behavior.

You know that God is watching of course. So we must not return the favor. We must forgive them and pray for them and each other.

God keep you and strengthen you...

PS
Tamara is a blessing to this OC.net Forum ..indeed; Thanks!
 

Rosehip

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Tamara is a blessing to this OC.net Forum ..indeed; Thanks!
I second that! Thanks, Tamara, for blessing us with your wisdom, kindness,godliness, and diplomacy. You have also blessed my life personally! Many thanks! :-*
 

Aristocles

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ytterbiumanalyst said:
Well said!

Homosexuality is a struggle for all of us, whether those who struggle with same-sex attraction itself or we who struggle not to condemn those who do. ...<snipped>
But this does not apply to the question. It is not those who "struggle" with same-sex attraction - those we do not condemn. But those who demand we accept their acceptance (giving into the sin) as our own. That's the rub.
 

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Papist said:
Honestly I don't think that homosexuality comes up over and over again just because everyone hates gays. As I said before, the reason that homosexuality comes up is that our society has made it an issue. For over about thrity to forty years, active homosexuals have been pushing an agenda to bring homosexuality out into the open and present the homosexual life style as a normal and viable alternative to the heterosexuality. Before this sixties, this was nearly unheard of. Homosexuality was quite rightly viewed as a disorder, sinful, and unhealhty. The big change in the way our society views the matter and has continually brought it to the forfront of discussion over the past few decades has made homosexuality a big political topic of conversation that it simply was not in the past. This is not the fault of Christians, Orthodox, Catholic, or otherwise, but rather the society at large that has made the issue so "important". Since Christian ethics rejects homosexuality, Christians now are forced to deal with an issue that secular culture is basically shoving in everyone's face whether they like it or not. If anyone really wants to point a finger for making the homosexual agenda an issue they should not be pointing a finger at Christians who are responding to a matter becuase of their faith. Rather, point the finger at those who continue to force the issue.
And yet in the early days of the Church, Christians were surrounding by homosexuality and much, much worse - and it doesn't seem from scripture that Christ was advocating that his followers institute law reform for pagans so that they conformed to Christian standards.

Perhaps the reason it has become such an issue for the 20-21st Century is that the Church, finding herself in a position to influence the state, affected laws that were enforced on the non-believer. It still doesn't seem to me that that was ever Christ's intention for the Church. Our changes and struggles with sin are to be our own, not those that are foisted upon us by the moral laws of a faith we don't believe. If such laws are in place, they merely push the non-believer away from Christianity. Our task, as the Church, is to bring non-believers to Christ (by exhibiting our love for each other and our love for the non-believer) so that in accepting Christ as their Saviour, they can recognise sin in themselves and desire change in themselves. Seems to me that historically the Church has failed miserably in the regard of love of each other, let alone love for non-believers.

It also seems to me that Christians need to accept a large portion of the blame for homosexuals "forcing of the issue" in this regard. It amounts to much more than differences of belief, of us against "the world"; it amounts to the Christian insistance of prying into what goes on in other people's bedrooms. This is something that people who live in countries where freedom is the catch-phrase will not and should not accept.

Until Christians learn to accept that others have the freewill - granted by God - to live as they choose, making moral decisions that we don't agree with, we will have the topic of homosexuality resurfacing as a hostile topic again and again. 
 

ytterbiumanalyst

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Αριστοκλής said:
But this does not apply to the question. It is not those who "struggle" with same-sex attraction - those we do not condemn. But those who demand we accept their acceptance (giving into the sin) as our own. That's the rub.
I see where you're coming from. Purposefully doing things to offend the sensibilities of a group is not a good way to gain the acceptance of that group. Personally, I think the whole "gay pride parade" is counterproductive. I don't care what anyone does in their own bedroom, but when it's in public, in plain sight of eveyone, I really don't want to see it regardless of the gender of the participants.
 

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ytterbiumanalyst said:
I see where you're coming from. Purposefully doing things to offend the sensibilities of a group is not a good way to gain the acceptance of that group. Personally, I think the whole "gay pride parade" is counterproductive. I don't care what anyone does in their own bedroom, but when it's in public, in plain sight of eveyone, I really don't want to see it regardless of the gender of the participants.
Taking it public, though, is part of "forcing the issue" and understandable. Those who feel persecuted will eventually take their cause public; most often with outrageous consequences. But would things have gone this far if homosexuals had not felt pushed into rebellion against "polite" society? Like any group of people who feel that they have been over-disciplined - and often unfairly - the more wilful (and gregarious) homosexual has decided to make a public statement. End result, a "gay pride parade" that is not only counterproductive in terms of receiving understanding and acceptance for homosexuals, but also "one in the eye for the establishment". 
 

livefreeordie

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Riddikulus said:
Until Christians learn to accept that others have the freewill - granted by God - to liveas they choose, making moral decisions that we don't agree with, we will have the topic of homosexuality resurfacing as a hostile topic again and again. 
I'm intrigued, how many Christians do you personally know that you would say to them, "you obviously have not learned to accept others have freewill".  I think most Christians would absolutely accept that God has given us all the free will to live as we choose. But does "accepting" mean we should all "live as we choose" or allow other's to "live as they choose".  Of course not, we all draw a line somewhere.  We just disagree with where the line should be drawn. In fact, most of us, not just Christians, all have low opinions of some of the many ways that people choose to exercise free will.  Obviously, some free will is determined to be illegal by society, i.e. someone's will to kill someone else.  And yes, I understand your point is, "don't tell other people how to live ye who cast the first stone."  But the way you put it is sure painting a pretty broad, and probably unfair brush of "Christians".  Personally, I've never met a Christian who didn't believe everyone had free will.  Doesn't mean you to have to accept or approve of it, and as we all know and I just said, society for completely non-religious reasons abridges people's rights to exercise their free will every day.

Sorry to dwell on the semantics, just don't understand why you had to make such a broad, damning statement against what you imply must be a majority of or at least a great deal of Christians. It seemed downright "hostile"!  ;)
 

Riddikulus

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livefreeordie said:
I'm intrigued, how many Christians do you personally know that you would say to them in person, "you obviously have not learned to accept others have freewill".
Why would I use such wording? There are many ways to discuss matters without using your formula. Forgive me if you took any of my comments personally. I wasn't addressing any member of this forum, but making a general observation as to why so many threads regarding homosexuality are started and are undeniably hostile - here on OC.net and on many other Christian forums and chat venues. Historically, Christian interaction with other sinners has been pretty appalling. If you don't agree, perhaps that could be a topic for another thread?

I think most Christians would absolutely accept that God has given us all the free will to live as we choose. But does "accepting" mean we should all "live as we choose" or allow other's to "live as they choose".  Of course not, we all draw a line somewhere.  We just disagree with where the line should be drawn. In fact, most of us, not just Christians, all have low opinions of some of the many ways that people choose to exercise free will.  Obviously, some free will is determined to be illegal by society, i.e. someone's will to kill someone else. 
I thought that this thread was about homosexuality on Orthodox forums. That is discussion regarding sexual attraction to another of one's own gender, and between two consenting adults. I'm not sure how murder got into the picture.

And yes, I understand your point is, "don't tell other people how to live ye who cast the first stone."  But the way you put it is sure painting a pretty broad, and probably unfair brush of "Christians".  Personally, I've never met a Christian who didn't believe everyone had free will. 
You have never net a Calvinist? And there are plenty of Christians who give lip-service to the concept of freewill, but then try to manipulate those around them to prevent them from exercising freewill as they see fit.

Sorry to dwell on the semantics, just don't understand why you had to make such a broad, damning statement against what you imply must be a majority of or at least a great deal of Christians. It seemed downright "hostile"!  ;)
I said; Until Christians learn to accept that others have the freewill - granted by God - to live as they choose, making moral decisions that we don't agree with, we will have the topic of homosexuality resurfacing as a hostile topic again and again.  

Where do I imply any numbers? Did you not notice the collective pronoun "we". As a community of believers, we are in this together - that means all of us. And how is this a damning statement? Obviously, as a Christian, I include myself in the above statement for I do believe that this tendancy to forget that others have the right to live according to their own choices has far wider implications than the subject of homosexuality only. I know that it's a 24/7 determination on my own part to not walk this earth wondering why people don't think and act the way I think is most appropriate. :p And who is the statement damning? Are we not permitted to recognise this tendancy in the human race without it being regarded as damning? What exactly do you mean by damning? And are you suggesting that there aren't a great number of Christians who deal with this subject poorly and with hostility?

 

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Murder got in the picture because of the obvious point that "free will" doesn't mean license to do whatever you want. I wasn't equating murder to homosexuality or anything else. Sorry if that seemed an inappropriate choice of words.

I've met plenty of Calvinists.  Compared to the majority of Christians, the actual number who would call themselves Calvinists and actually believe we have no free will are few.  Which is why I said "most" Christians.

I know many Christians who disagree with Homosexuality.  But I can't remember the last time I personally saw one act poorly or with hostility in regards the issue.  I heard more hostility toward homosexuals playing High School sports from guys who'd never step foot in a Church than I ever have in a Church. Now I've seen Christians on TV do so, and I've seen Christians on web boards do so but my personal experience would lead me to believe that most Christians actually deal with this issue appropriately and without hostility. But I won't disagree that there are many that do not.

Why do I think this topic keeps coming up on boards, 1) People get nervous and reactionary by something they perceive as attacking their faith or way of life and it exposes their own weaknesses, 2) people don't like to be told what to do and get nervous that people telling other people what they can or can't do will eventually effect them and 3) internet boards attract people looking for debate and homosexuality is a hot topic. So it make sense that among a group of people looking to debate/test/defend their "beliefs" it would get discussed often.  So they all tend to create boogymen and let flaming begin.

As for me, some of the finest people I've ever met were homosexuals.  And some of the finest people I've ever met were hardcore Southern Baptist bible thumpers.  And some of the finest people I've ever met were hard core atheists. I've rarely if ever seen them act or speak hostile toward one another on these issues. Disagree yes, difference of opinion yes, hostile no.  People lurking on web forums and media attention grabbers though, a different story! ;)
 

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livefreeordie said:
Murder got in the picture because of the obvious point that "free will" doesn't mean license to do whatever you want. I wasn't equating murder to homosexuality or anything else. Sorry if that seemed an inappropriate choice of words.
You are forgiven.  :p

I've met plenty of Calvinists.  Compared to the majority of Christians, the actual number who would call themselves Calvinists and actually believe we have no free will are few.  Which is why I said "most" Christians.
Sorry to nitpick, but you said; Personally, I've never met a Christian who didn't believe everyone had free will.

I know many Christians who disagree with Homosexuality.  But I can't remember the last time I personally saw one act poorly or with hostility in regards the issue.  I heard more hostility toward homosexuals playing High School sports from guys who'd never step foot in a Church than I ever have in a Church. Now I've seen Christians on TV do so, and I've seen Christians on web boards do so but my personal experience would lead me to believe that most Christians actually deal with this issue appropriately and without hostility. But I won't disagree that there are many that do not.
Aren't we talking about homosexuality on Orthodox forums  ???

 

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Riddikulus said:
Sorry to nitpick, but you said; Personally, I've never met a Christian who didn't believe everyone had free will.

Aren't we talking about homosexuality on Orthodox forums  ???
To be perfectly honest, the "Calvinists" I've known probably aren't true Calvinists since if pushed they would say they believe in predestination but would also say our actions are somehow "free".  Which of course probably means they aren't really Calvinists. I wouldn't argue that with them though! ;) But this probably means my original statement should have been, "As far as I know, I've never met a Christian who didn't believe everyone had free will, but their might be a few confused ones I'm not sure about!"

And yes we have been talking about "homosexuality on Orthodox forums", although it seemed to me you were also commenting on the topic of homosexuality and how the Christian community deals with the topic in general, regardless, getting back on "topic" is why my next paragraph after the one quoted read,

"Why do I think this topic keeps coming up on boards, 1) People get nervous and reactionary by something they perceive as attacking their faith or way of life and it exposes their own weaknesses, 2) people don't like to be told what to do and get nervous that people telling other people what they can or can't do will eventually effect them and 3) internet boards attract people looking for debate and homosexuality is a hot topic. So it make sense that among a group of people looking to debate/test/defend their "beliefs" it would get discussed often.  So they all tend to create boogymen and let flaming begin."

You must have just missed it! ;)


 

livefreeordie

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Riddikulus said:
Aren't we talking about homosexuality on Orthodox forums  ???
Since you seem concerned about us staying on topic, was the following then only intended to address specifically "homosexuality on Orthodox forums".

Riddikulus said:
As a community of believers, we are in this together - that means all of us. And how is this a damning statement? Obviously, as a Christian, I include myself in the above statement for I do believe that this tendancy to forget that others have the right to live according to their own choices has far wider implications than the subject of homosexuality only. I know that it's a 24/7 determination on my own part to not walk this earth wondering why people don't think and act the way I think is most appropriate. :p And who is the statement damning? Are we not permitted to recognise this tendancy in the human race without it being regarded as damning? What exactly do you mean by damning? And are you suggesting that there aren't a great number of Christians who deal with this subject poorly and with hostility?
It must be my feeble mind that led me to believe you were talking in a more general sense of how christians relate to the topic of homosexuality.  Forgive my misunderstanding as I'm sure you wouldn't hold me to a higher standard of topic etiquette than yourself! :eek:

 

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livefreeordie said:
To be perfectly honest, the "Calvinists" I've known probably aren't true Calvinists since if pushed they would say they believe in predestination but would also say our actions are somehow "free".  Which of course probably means they aren't really Calvinists. I wouldn't argue that with them though! ;) But this probably means my original statement should have been, "As far as I know, I've never met a Christian who didn't believe everyone had free will, but their might be a few confused ones I'm not sure about!"

And yes we have been talking about "homosexuality on Orthodox forums", although it seemed to me you were also commenting on the topic of homosexuality and how the Christian community deals with the topic in general, regardless, getting back on "topic" is why my next paragraph after the one quoted read,

"Why do I think this topic keeps coming up on boards, 1) People get nervous and reactionary by something they perceive as attacking their faith or way of life and it exposes their own weaknesses, 2) people don't like to be told what to do and get nervous that people telling other people what they can or can't do will eventually effect them and 3) internet boards attract people looking for debate and homosexuality is a hot topic. So it make sense that among a group of people looking to debate/test/defend their "beliefs" it would get discussed often.  So they all tend to create boogymen and let flaming begin."

You must have just missed it! ;)
I didn't miss a thing.  ;)
 

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livefreeordie said:
Since you seem concerned about us staying on topic, was the following then only intended to address specifically "homosexuality on Orthodox forums".

It must be my feeble mind that led me to believe you were talking in a more general sense of how christians relate to the topic of homosexuality.   Forgive my misunderstanding as I'm sure you wouldn't hold me to a higher standard of topic etiquette than yourself! :eek:
Yes, that was it; your feeble mind.  ;)
 

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Riddikulus said:
And yet in the early days of the Church, Christians were surrounding by homosexuality and much, much worse - and it doesn't seem from scripture that Christ was advocating that his followers institute law reform for pagans so that they conformed to Christian standards.

Perhaps the reason it has become such an issue for the 20-21st Century is that the Church, finding herself in a position to influence the state, affected laws that were enforced on the non-believer. It still doesn't seem to me that that was ever Christ's intention for the Church. Our changes and struggles with sin are to be our own, not those that are foisted upon us by the moral laws of a faith we don't believe. If such laws are in place, they merely push the non-believer away from Christianity. Our task, as the Church, is to bring non-believers to Christ (by exhibiting our love for each other and our love for the non-believer) so that in accepting Christ as their Saviour, they can recognise sin in themselves and desire change in themselves. Seems to me that historically the Church has failed miserably in the regard of love of each other, let alone love for non-believers.

It also seems to me that Christians need to accept a large portion of the blame for homosexuals "forcing of the issue" in this regard. It amounts to much more than differences of belief, of us against "the world"; it amounts to the Christian insistance of prying into what goes on in other people's bedrooms. This is something that people who live in countries where freedom is the catch-phrase will not and should not accept.

Until Christians learn to accept that others have the freewill - granted by God - to live as they choose, making moral decisions that we don't agree with, we will have the topic of homosexuality resurfacing as a hostile topic again and again. 
Nope. The early Church wasn't dealing with a cultural shift towards acceptance of homosexuality. It was old news in their society so there was no reason to  expect a great deal  of discussion on the matter. Today, we ARE dealing with a cultural shift that is being rammed down our throats under the disguise of "civil rights".
 

ialmisry

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Αριστοκλής said:
Keble said:
How about "because society/the media are presenting it as an issue"?
There you go! I agree. If bestiality were the new 'cause' I guess that would be a hot topic also.

(Opening new can of worms...)
LOL....you just mentioned bestiality.
 

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ialmisry said:
Αριστοκλής said:
Keble said:
How about "because society/the media are presenting it as an issue"?
There you go! I agree. If bestiality were the new 'cause' I guess that would be a hot topic also.

(Opening new can of worms...)
LOL....you just mentioned bestiality.
WOW!!!  You resuscitate a thread that had been dead for six months only to quote a post that goes back a year earlier. ::)  You must really be bored! :p
 

ialmisry

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PeterTheAleut said:
ialmisry said:
Αριστοκλής said:
Keble said:
How about "because society/the media are presenting it as an issue"?
There you go! I agree. If bestiality were the new 'cause' I guess that would be a hot topic also.

(Opening new can of worms...)
LOL....you just mentioned bestiality.
WOW!!!  You resuscitate a thread that had been dead for six months only to quote a post that goes back a year earlier. ::)  You must really be bored! :p
No.  Just meandered off of OzGeorge's link to this thread posted yesterday.  Procrastinating more than bored.  Got too much going on: I'd LOVE to be bored.
 
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