Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread

Homosexuality comes up frequenbtly on Orthodox forums because..

  • Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet.

    Votes: 20 27.8%
  • Since drunkeness, adultery, theft and dishonesty have been eradicated it's the only sin left to figh

    Votes: 10 13.9%
  • Apparently most Orthodox Christians have lots of gay family, friends and associates

    Votes: 7 9.7%
  • Orthodox forums attract a lot of self torturing closet cases and men with doubts about thier own mas

    Votes: 20 27.8%
  • Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet.

    Votes: 15 20.8%

  • Total voters
    72
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Theoprovlitos

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shep4569

Can you specify what do you call "Brothers". Because the gospel calls heretics as "heavy wolves" and not brothers. I am here to bring awareness for the existance of wolves disguised as sheep and tosupport the true brothers from them.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Theoprovlitos said:
Guys you only know or onle can know the peak of the iceberg. I belive that hatred towars the Finnish Orthodox Church should refer to evryone who is Finnish Orthodox. In this case we are talking about a rotten environemtn who has been for some years now altering our dogmas, forming a mafia and percecuting thos who keep protesting with no response.

Yes there is no more tolerance towards them and yes we are sick and tired having to deal with this and that, every now and then, and be unable to resist. And the more this remains a local issue the more these people misbehave. How would you feel id some gues were claiming that Jeus Christ was homosexualand you protest and their reply is that you are a fundamentalist? Here we do not have to do with human weaknesses or a fall. We have to deal with hypocricy, hatred from THEIR side, persecution and oppression. It is easy to critise when you are outside a certain situation, nicely and safely while your fellow brothers are suffering from heretical people who are step by step are taking over the Church.
I can honestly understand that maybe the Finnish Orthodox Church is facing some difficult challenges right now as regards the efforts of her faithful to protect the riches of the Orthodox faith against heresy, though I don't know this for certain.  The way you just exploded onto the OC.net forum this morning with your "The sky is falling!" rhetoric, however, drives me to challenge you to ask yourself if you're presenting the situation in Finland in the best manner possible.  As I've already mentioned before, your panicky tone, your insistence that we trust you at your word even though we've never seen you before, your apparent jumping to unwarranted conclusions, and your insistence that we bear the burden of proof to prove you wrong all indicate to me that you're probably acting on a nefarious agenda that's driving you to not be completely forthright with us and/or that you've succumbed to the emotionalism of irrational panic.  Either way, you've not really given us much reason to believe you.  What can you do to change this so as to give your message more authority?  A much calmer, much less defensive tone, together with outside corroboration from official sources that we can read would be a good place to start.
 

ozgeorge

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lubeltri said:
Theoprovlitos said:
• 21.00-Orthodox vesper, supper, saunas
:eek:
::)
Please don't be ethnocentric guys.
Saunas are part of Finnish culture and have been for ages. There are two million saunas in Finland- a country of five million people. Does that mean that half the population of Finland is gay?
 

DerekMK

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ozgeorge said:
lubeltri said:
Theoprovlitos said:
• 21.00-Orthodox vesper, supper, saunas
:eek:
::)
Please don't be ethnocentric guys.
Saunas are part of Finnish culture and have been for ages. There are two million saunas in Finland- a country of five million people. Does that mean that half the population of Finland is gay?
According to a recent politics thread, almost the entire country is gay  ;D
 

lubeltri

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::) It was a joke.

At first glance, though, I had a brief moment of surprise at the juxtaposition of Vespers with saunas at a conference alleged to be about homosexuality.
 

shep4569

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Theoprovlitos said:
shep4569

Can you specify what do you call "Brothers". Because the gospel calls heretics as "heavy wolves" and not brothers. I am here to bring awareness for the existance of wolves disguised as sheep and tosupport the true brothers from them.
Well, to be honest, this is the first I've heard of all the homosexuality in Finland. Being heterosexual myself, maybe I'm just out of the loop on international homosexual hotspots. Therefore, it is even more surprising (thus less believable) to me that the autonomous church of Finland, which is under the care of the EP, is somehow immersed up to its neck in homosexual tolerance and promotion. Surely if the OCA or ROC or EP or any other OC was advocating this type of behavior I'm sure one would hear about it....but I haven't, at least not from anybody other than you. Thus +Leo remains the pastoral leader of my Orthodox Christian brothers and sisters in Finland.
 

Theoprovlitos

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I would like to address a good morning to the Inquisition.

Someone who is really objective would EASILY see that the two posts that I originally posted, one on homosexuality and the other on Freemasonry are NOTHING more than simple reproduction of NEWS the way they were presented in links. One text was even in English while the second text was nothing more that the translation from the Freemason magazine.

Therefore those of the inquisition who were stubbornly trying to prove me a fraud, now they try to present that I am spreading panic and hatred.

Now if panic and hatred come to you from the simple reproduction of a news page, then you should check YOUR hearts and intentions and not mine.

If you haven't done all this organized attack towards my person and simply read the TRANSLATION or the REPRODUCTION of their own links, then you would be able to see both that in the original links and posts that I am not spreading any panick  as you accuse me. Just AWARENESS.

Now when I have before me 3-4 members of the inquisition interrogating me simply because

a) Either they don't WANT to believe what I am writing and so they express THEIR panic on my person
b) Either they want to COVER UP the whole thing in order not to spoil the "Public image" of some heretics
c) Either because they AGREE both with what is going on in the Finnish church

then OF COURSE I got angry but towards YOU guys, because I entered the forum to present SIMPLE NEWS without comments and you have attacked me, and it is not clear which of the above your intentions are, if not ALL of them.

And when you present some NEWS based on LINKS about Freemasonry and open homosexuality within the Orthodox church and you get some people attack YOU, obviously you get angry, and raise your tone, simply because you realize that the people in a forum where you presented a problem, instead of confronting the heresy or write negative comments about the HERESY they write negative comments about YOU, as with the example of the woman who reports a rape and some guys verbaly attack HER instead of the rapers. In this case that woman is the Finnish Orthodox Church and her true faithful and her rapers are some of her bishops and their shady environment.

It is also like the film the "Invation of the Body Snatchers" where some cocoons from outer space are being transformed into human beings and replace the real humans -taking even their figures -when they fall asleep.

Same in this forum, NONE of you has expressed any opinion about homosexual ecclesiastical weddings, and Freemasonry within the church. Your ONLY goal was -and still is- to present me as crazy guy and to drive me crazy as well, having me trying to proof that I am not an elephant or a lunatic who sees "visions". OF COURSE I am angry. And OF COURSE I raise the tone towards people who claim to be Orthodox and they do not seem to understand that Freemasonry and homosexuality -especially as a church sacrement- have nothing to do with Orthodoxy.

I guess this is most probably because you agree whith what is happening in Finland (OCA is infamous among other jurisdictions in the USA for homosexual scandals) or probably you want to wait till you see the first homosexual wedding taking place in your OWN parish to believe. I am not sure however if you will feel sorry or if oyu will rejoice about it.

What I do feel however, is that if you want to believe yourselves christian you do owe me some appoligies for your overall attitude towards my person.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Theoprovlitos said:
OCA is infamous among other jurisdictions in the USA for homosexual scandals
Really?  I'm in the OCA, and I've never heard anything except a bit of gossip about possible sexual misdeeds and cover-ups by our previous two Metropolitans.  We certainly can't hide that we've had our scandals recently, but I'm certainly not aware that confirmed homosexual behavior by any of our clergy has ever been a big part of these.  To say that the OCA is infamous among American jurisdictions for homosexual scandals strikes me as quite a stretch indeed, and I really think you need to back up this claim, lest it be seen as slanderous, too.
 

Theoprovlitos

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Temper temper,

now YOU are losing it and you know how it feels when they call you a fraud, simply because they want to cover up scandals which have to do with homosexuality. And a good reason I can think of is that they have their OWN reasons to do so.

One one good reason is that they might belong to thet close environment of those homosexual bishops that you just admited that they messed up the OCA church. And becasue we can't know who you are and what is your role in this forum, you have to proof now to me and to others that you do NOT belong to that environment of those rotten OCA bishops and therefore this is the reason why you defend with so much zeal those Finnish bishops who organize open homosexual meetings in their diocese.

If you can't proof it then I can assume whatever I want. Now YOU have to proof which are your morivations for supporting homosexuality and freemasonry.
 

CRCulver

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While Theoprovlitos' rhetoric may occasionally be over the top, it is not his imagination that the Finnish Orthodox Church is moving to embrace homosexual relationships. Spend a few weeks participating in church life in Helsinki's Uspensky Cathedral, or read the introductions to the Church written by clergy in the Finnish national press, and this will be very obvious to you. I don't see the Finnish Orthodox Church putting up a good fight in the culture war, and I expect it to depart from anything resembling world Orthodoxy in the coming decades. For my part, I'm happy that in just a couple of months I am leaving Finland for good and then can spend more of my time in my other jurisdiction, where for all its problems the Church does maintain a severe line on contemporary culture.
 

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Theoprovlitos said:
If you can't proof it then I can assume whatever I want. Now YOU have to proof which are your morivations for supporting homosexuality and freemasonry.
 

PoorFoolNicholas

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Νεκτάριος said:
Saunas are a normal part of Finish culture.  They are also a regular part of Russian culture.  Of course each time I went to the sauna (баня in Russian) it was a massive orgy of gay sex, so maybe you have a point.  Of course, you wouldn't want to take into account not imposing American cultural norms on a situation before making a snap judgement.
I don't know if I could laugh any harder....really, I'm serious.
 

Anastasios

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Theoprovlitos said:
Temper temper,

now YOU are losing it and you know how it feels when they call you a fraud, simply because they want to cover up scandals which have to do with homosexuality. And a good reason I can think of is that they have their OWN reasons to do so.

One one good reason is that they might belong to thet close environment of those homosexual bishops that you just admited that they messed up the OCA church. And becasue we can't know who you are and what is your role in this forum, you have to proof now to me and to others that you do NOT belong to that environment of those rotten OCA bishops and therefore this is the reason why you defend with so much zeal those Finnish bishops who organize open homosexual meetings in their diocese.

If you can't proof it then I can assume whatever I want. Now YOU have to proof which are your morivations for supporting homosexuality and freemasonry.
Do you understand that:

1) People come on this site every week and make unfounded claims against various hierarchs
2) Some such claims can be considered libel and we could be sued for them if we let them stand
3) Most people on this site do not read Finnish or Greek, and that's ok
4) You are a newcomer to the site and instead of getting in to the community you've immediately started to post material that is sensational (I am not saying it is not true, but it is sensational).

It is for these reasons that posters are demanding you furnish more proof than just a blog or one web link.  I understand you have added more proof since then, which is good, but I see from the link that it is not clear who this bishop is and why he is on the programme. Did he approve of his name being put there? Has anyone asked him?

If someone were writing against your bishop in a public forum, you would ask for further evidence.

Trying to turn it around on the OCA and then accusing the person asking for proof of trying to cover up homosexuality is not going to win you any points.

If this bishop is indeed supporting homosexuality and freemasonry, I would like to see letters written to the Ecumenical Patriarch in protest.  But I also believe that before any accusations are assumed to be true, we must have all the facts.  This is what Christians do.

Certainly exposing such disturbing events is fine for a public internet forum, but you should keep points 1-4 above in mind as to why people are being firm with you to ask for the best proof possible.

Fr Anastasios
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Anastasios

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Theoprovlitos said:
then OF COURSE I got angry but towards YOU guys, because I entered the forum to present SIMPLE NEWS without comments and you have attacked me,
That's not a purpose of a forum.

The purpose of a forum is for discussion.
 

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I apologise for not trusting you (about Met. Ambrosius). However you should have posted the reliable and independent sources firstly, not your blog.

Same in this forum, NONE of you has expressed any opinion about homosexual ecclesiastical weddings,
Why to express an opinion about things which aren't present in EO Church?

I guess aritcles and links in Finnish or Greek won't do any help to you or would they?
It's an English forum not Finnish or Greek. Please post documents in English.

And how about the other priests which still appear on the link which is public of course? Are you suggesting that those priests are secretely participating in the conference adn the bishop hasn't noticed?
He is JUST participating, he's not a gay himself, he's not going to make gay weddings. I hope he'll explain the statement of EO Church on gay marriages. You think that national ecumenical organisations are very powerful and secretly they will to destroy the EO Church. I'm sorry to change you view but THEY MEAN NOTHING. They can organise some discussions or charity actions but it's all.

And becasue we can't know who you are and what is your role in this forum, you have to proof now to me and to others that you do NOT belong to that environment of those rotten OCA bishops and therefore this is the reason why you defend with so much zeal those Finnish bishops who organize open homosexual meetings in their diocese.
I'm a 18-year-old high school graduate. I've never been to Finland and the US. I personally have met only two people from CoF but I don't think it's an argument against me because I was about 9 then. The reason that I do not trust you is that I've read plenty of "proves" of Jews/freemasons/homosexuals/KGB agents/hidden Catholics/ in the EO hierarchy and it all wasn't true.

ozgeorge said:
Thank God for my Finnish friends in the mountains with their cedar sauna. Makes mountain winters bearable!
I also have one at my place :)


 

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Theoprovlitos said:
Temper temper,

now YOU are losing it and you know how it feels when they call you a fraud, simply because they want to cover up scandals which have to do with homosexuality. And a good reason I can think of is that they have their OWN reasons to do so.

One one good reason is that they might belong to thet close environment of those homosexual bishops that you just admited that they messed up the OCA church. And becasue we can't know who you are and what is your role in this forum, you have to proof now to me and to others that you do NOT belong to that environment of those rotten OCA bishops and therefore this is the reason why you defend with so much zeal those Finnish bishops who organize open homosexual meetings in their diocese.

If you can't proof it then I can assume whatever I want. Now YOU have to proof which are your morivations for supporting homosexuality and freemasonry.
Good reasoning.

In fact, excellent.
 

Anastasios

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Theoprovlitos said:
I would like to address a good morning to the Inquisition.

Someone who is really objective would EASILY see that the two posts that I originally posted, one on homosexuality and the other on Freemasonry are NOTHING more than simple reproduction of NEWS the way they were presented in links. One text was even in English while the second text was nothing more that the translation from the Freemason magazine.
Yes, but people have posted things here that were not true before.

Therefore those of the inquisition who were stubbornly trying to prove me a fraud, now they try to present that I am spreading panic and hatred.
Why are you turning this personal? People want to make sure what you are saying is true. You're new here, so you don't have any credibility yet. It's natural.

Now if panic and hatred come to you from the simple reproduction of a news page, then you should check YOUR hearts and intentions and not mine.
I don't see anyone panicking. The Finnish Church is not exactly the biggest player in World Orthodoxy today.

If you haven't done all this organized attack towards my person and simply read the TRANSLATION or the REPRODUCTION of their own links, then you would be able to see both that in the original links and posts that I am not spreading any panick  as you accuse me. Just AWARENESS.
The point is, how do we know that you translated it correctly? or that you are who you say you are? Credibility is built over time.  We have many people who come here and say things. Should we believe them all instantly? Posters here are concerned about due diligence for both legal and moral reasons.

Now when I have before me 3-4 members of the inquisition interrogating me simply because

a) Either they don't WANT to believe what I am writing and so they express THEIR panic on my person
b) Either they want to COVER UP the whole thing in order not to spoil the "Public image" of some heretics
c) Either because they AGREE both with what is going on in the Finnish church
What kind of reasoning is this? You missed option d: they believe what you say is plausible, but since they are Christians, they would like to make sure there is NO OTHER POSSIBLE EXPLANATION for the actions before jumping to judge.


And when you present some NEWS based on LINKS about Freemasonry and open homosexuality within the Orthodox church and you get some people attack YOU, obviously you get angry, and raise your tone, simply because you realize that the people in a forum where you presented a problem, instead of confronting the heresy or write negative comments about the HERESY they write negative comments about YOU,
But an angry response is sinful. Why not seek to discuss the issue deeper? How you found this information? What steps you have taken? It just came off as rather accusatory.


Same in this forum, NONE of you has expressed any opinion about homosexual ecclesiastical weddings, and Freemasonry within the church.
That is absurd. There are dozens and dozens of threads about both these topics on this forum.

For the record, both are absolutely unorthodox.

Your ONLY goal was -and still is- to present me as crazy guy and to drive me crazy as well, having me trying to proof that I am not an elephant or a lunatic who sees "visions". OF COURSE I am angry. And OF COURSE I raise the tone towards people who claim to be Orthodox and they do not seem to understand that Freemasonry and homosexuality -especially as a church sacrement- have nothing to do with Orthodoxy.
That is quite an assumption to make about others.

I guess this is most probably because you agree whith what is happening in Finland (OCA is infamous among other jurisdictions in the USA for homosexual scandals) or probably you want to wait till you see the first homosexual wedding taking place in your OWN parish to believe. I am not sure however if you will feel sorry or if oyu will rejoice about it.
You are making yourself look worse by posting stuff like this.

The OCA has been dealing with accusations of homosexuality. I know of a priest who was deposed for it, and one of their most famous theologians (Fr Thomas Hopko) recently wrote a book reaffirming traditional views on homosexuality. I find your accusation baseless.

What I do feel however, is that if you want to believe yourselves christian you do owe me some appoligies for your overall attitude towards my person.
I think you owe the people you just accused of supporting homosexuality an apology too.
 

Theoprovlitos

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Fr Anastasios,

My aim is certainly not bring the forum into a difficult situation, but many gave the impression that NO MATTER what I do, no matter what I present my data are not considerd as reliable.

I mean what on earth can be more relaible than the freemason magazine itself publishing an article about the forum and prayer with the Orthodox bishop. I present the original text in Finnish, if I presented the Greek transaltion it would be no good to you and when I do present the english transaltion then it is considered as unreliable jjust liek that! Because I made it. Actullay the Greek transaltion was not by me but it was emailed to me from Finland. So what do you expect to consider a publication reliable? Official transaltion form the Greek or the Finnish Embassy in New York? And why MY transaltion would en unreliable and someone else's wouldn't? And instead of focusing on the horrible issue of EXTREME ecumenism that considers Freemasons as one more Christian denomination or a simple society we have spend so much time to argue whether my translation is reliable or not.

ANd obviously becasue such a transaltion as you want it you are NEVER going to get it (because it will have to be from a trustworthy person of YOURS or the Finnish Embassy) then are you telling me that in vain I published the news in here?

The blog itself fully exposes me if I am a lier. You can check of yourself that there are hundreds of Finnish visitors lately. It would be for me very easy to be accused for a fraud.

Then on the homosexual marriages issue you are focusing ONLY on the bishop while the other names presented in the links are still there and they belong to IMPORTANT people in the Orthodox Church. Fr Heikki Huttunen, priest in the parish of St Herman of Alaska in Espoo suburb of Helsinki and general secretary of the ecumensit counsil of Finland, Jyrki Harkonen supporting openly and wrtiting awful articles in the rainbow Orthodox society of Finland, author of the Religion class schoolbook for the Orthodox Children (!) and Theological secretary of the Archbishop.

http://www.ort.fi/fi/yhteystiedot/hpk_kansliat.php

If you believe that the problem appeared all of a sudden well here is a whole discussion from a link that I found

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=18525.0

Since then things as I predicted last November are going from bad to worse

OF COURSE bishop Ambrosius was going to participate in that forum (there isn't any other gay forum with the same particiapansts and the same date and the same link so that google woulfd be foold) OF COURSE he was aware of it otherwise the organizers would be persecuted for fraud, OF COURSE bishop Ambrosius blesses the forum and gives permission to participate and OF COURSE the archbishop knows it all sicen his Theological Secretary is in the same pro-gay group as other participants. We are talking about a church of 50.000 faithful with 3 diocese in a country of 5 million people.

In the same forum you have seen the SPONTANIOUS reactions of the Synod of Finland because one of the priests in Helsinki is going to particiapte in the forthcoming european elections as a candidate. This was cosnidered to be so terrble that tehy immedaitely made a meeting to see what are they ging to do with that priest, and my blog is in the air for several days now, the programma of the gay Group is online since weeks now, the names of the Orthodox participants are there, the magzine of the freemason is in print since last February and NOBODY is doing anything about it. People complain to the EP and also to the Moscow Patriarchate and nothing happens.

I understand the Archbishop Leo was present in the enthronement of your bishop Jonah but this is not a good motivation to cover up the truth. Actually with several of these guys we were once upon a time friends. But the Church goes above friendships and public relatonships.
 
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