Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread

Homosexuality comes up frequenbtly on Orthodox forums because..

  • Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet.

    Votes: 20 27.8%
  • Since drunkeness, adultery, theft and dishonesty have been eradicated it's the only sin left to figh

    Votes: 10 13.9%
  • Apparently most Orthodox Christians have lots of gay family, friends and associates

    Votes: 7 9.7%
  • Orthodox forums attract a lot of self torturing closet cases and men with doubts about thier own mas

    Votes: 20 27.8%
  • Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet.

    Votes: 15 20.8%

  • Total voters
    72
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Andrew21091

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Heorhij said:
Ortho_cat said:
The scriptures and the Church's interpretation of the scriptures on the issue of homosexual relationships are rather clear, I believe.
Relationships yes, mariage - no. There is simply no concept of homosexual marriage in Scripture, like there is no concept of biological evolution, electricity, automobiles, airplanes, protons, neutrons, women having rights independently of fathers or husbands, integrals, differentials, other galaxies...
Homosexuality is a sin according to the Church. Can we just decide that something isn't a sin anymore? People say masturbation can reduce stress and has health benefits (or something like that) so should we then say that it isn't a sin anymore? A lot of people also cheat on their spouses, should we just say no big deal to that since everyone does it? Relationships and marriage are similar, since homosexual relations are condemned in the Bible and by the Church, then how can we allow them to marry?
 

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mountainman said:
heorhij seems to be defending the validity of the homosexual lifestyle because in his view it is genetic and therefore not a choice.  And yet this is greatly oversimplified.  First of all, it is in evidence that children are sometimes born with predispositions for certain types of behavior, some sinful.
But why do you equate homosexual predisposition with sinful one?

mountainman said:
We cannot depend completely on nature to provide us with our standard of what is good.  We are all perhaps born with such a "thorn in the flesh".
True, but again, this "thorn" of homosexuality, wasn't it considered a "thorn" because marriage has always been viewed, historically, as a means of procreation - and thus no homosexual sexual relation, given this view of marital relationship, could be seen as marital? What do we say about marital relations now? Are they only for procreation? A man and a woman who has underfone hysterectomy - will they be prohibited by the Church to have sexual relations, when they are married? If a man falls in love with a woman who has no uterus, will he be prohibited by the Church to be married to her and to have sex with her?

mountainman said:
Does this mean we are perpetually victims with no hope for a true struggle against the passions?
Of course not, but just what are these "passions?" Why in the world a love of a man to a man or a woman to a woman is automatically, and irreversibly, deemed a "passion," while the love of our own Fr. George to his wife is not?

mountainman said:
Secondly, I know through personal experience that some gay men do actively choose this lifestyle at some point in their lives for purely psychological reasons, such as a need to compensate for a lack of fatherly love in adolescence.
Really? Are you one of them? Please PM me, let's talk. I somehow suspect that you are not speaking of experience. I would like to see your arguments convincing me that I am wrong as far as this choice goes.

mountainman said:
Given, they may have a predisposition, but this is not the determining factor.  The psychology comes first and foremost, rather than an expression of love...  in fact, what we are speaking about most often when we reference homosexuality is not a particular expression of love but a confusion about the nature and role of sexuality.
Hmmm. Please PM.
 

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Feanor said:
Human doctrines and philosophical/religious understanding change and adapt as we slowly discover the Truth. Do you think it is possible that this process of perfecting mankind's understanding of Truth - spiritually, morally, metaphysically - is something that could take millennia?
It is wrong to speak of understanding in this sense, which implies use of Reason. The use of reason is very dangerous when combined with the Orthodox faith. Truth in the sense of Orthodoxy is not really understood so much as it is experienced. Any understanding that is there is not from us and is not projected on to the Holy Scriptures, rather the understanding is given to us from His Revelation, which is guarded by the Church Fathers.

"The Orthodox Church does not endorse the view that the teachings of Christ have changed from time to time; rather that Christianity has remained unaltered from the moment that the Lord delivered the Faith to the Apostles (Matt. 28: 18-20). She affirms that "the faith once delivered to the saints" (Jude 3) is now what it was in the beginning. Orthodox of the twentieth century believe precisely what was believed by Orthodox of the first, the fifth, the tenth, the fifteenth centuries."

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

Or was everything that there possibly is to know about everything laid out in the Bible and the teachings of the Early Fathers?
It is impossible to "know everything" that is in the Scriptures and Church Fathers, even if they did contain everything. Orthodox Christianity is a vast and deep ocean. Those who dived in and tried to drink in everything, drowned. We must only take sips of the water. Slow and steady wins the race.

Although some here will use reason or science to argue for or against homosexuality, I do not. A person who engages in homosexual behaviour will answer to themselves, their spiritual father, and God. It is not my concern, and their behaviour is not really your concern either.
 

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Andrew21091 said:
Heorhij said:
Ortho_cat said:
The scriptures and the Church's interpretation of the scriptures on the issue of homosexual relationships are rather clear, I believe.
Relationships yes, mariage - no. There is simply no concept of homosexual marriage in Scripture, like there is no concept of biological evolution, electricity, automobiles, airplanes, protons, neutrons, women having rights independently of fathers or husbands, integrals, differentials, other galaxies...
Homosexuality is a sin according to the Church. Can we just decide that something isn't a sin anymore? People say masturbation can reduce stress and has health benefits (or something like that) so should we then say that it isn't a sin anymore? A lot of people also cheat on their spouses, should we just say no big deal to that since everyone does it? Relationships and marriage are similar, since homosexual relations are condemned in the Bible and by the Church, then how can we allow them to marry?

Or we could recognise that the natural human desires of sexuality have traditionally been perceived as sinful, evil, wrong, etc due to an inherently flawed underpinning philosophy which stemmed from a backwards cultural zeitgeist in ancient Judaea.

Adults who love each other having sex to strengthen their loving bond should not be a sin. It strengthens and expresses love, it hurts no one.

The argument that homosexuals only have sex out of lust is, quite frankly, rubbish. They have sex for the same reasons that heterosexuals do - and you probably don't need to be reminded that even religious married couples have sex for reasons other than procreation. It strengthens their bond and forms an important part of participating in an intimate act of love within their relationship. Sexuality is healthy and forms a positive part of the human condition.

I'm not talking about casual sex, prostitution, meet-and-screw-in-a-hotel relationships, orgies, and other activities which occur purely due to lust. A good case for calling such activity 'sinful' can be made because it involves sex outside of love and committment.

However, sexually active homosexual couples are no different from sexually active heterosexual couples in their motivations for having sex. I'm sure if homosexual couples could have kids, they would; but as we know that's not the reason that the vast majority of couples have sex, is it? I'm sure even the priest at your local parish uses a condom when he has sex with his wife, as does pretty much everyone who doesn't want (or can't afford to support) a new child every nine months. Unless you want to condemn and persecute every heterosexual couple who uses condoms (and thus commit the gross social/moral irresponsibility of Roman Catholics, who tell Africans in AIDS-ravaged nations not to use contraceptives), drop the case.

Monks and nuns take vows of chastisy because intimate human relationships are totally inappropriate for their lifestyle, which is meant to wholly focus on God, Christ and spirituality. Intimate loving relationships are beautiful, but they would certainly distract monks and nuns from their mission, so it makes sense for monks and nuns to be celibate. They are abstaining from a distraction - not something inherently evil. Not all human beings can be expected to live as monks or nuns - we simply weren't intended that way.

The scriptures were written by human beings who were inspired by God, not by God Himself. And like all human beings, the prophets, scribes, Apostles, evangelists, etc were capable of making mistakes or reflecting the cultural attitudes of their time in their works. The deeper spiritual truths of the scriptures don't lie in the literal surface meanings of the words chosen by their authors. The only entity who has access to Ultimate Truth is the Ultimate Reality (i.e., God) himself. Men make mistakes. Unless you actually expect me to believe that God dictated every word of the Pentateuch to Moses on Mt Sinai - an idea which archaeological evidence and textual analysis discredits extensively.

Christianity has the cause of social justice and humanism at its core, not bigotry. Religion has fostered and promoted bigotry for too long, and it has to stop.
 

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Andrew21091 said:
Heorhij said:
Ortho_cat said:
The scriptures and the Church's interpretation of the scriptures on the issue of homosexual relationships are rather clear, I believe.
Relationships yes, mariage - no. There is simply no concept of homosexual marriage in Scripture, like there is no concept of biological evolution, electricity, automobiles, airplanes, protons, neutrons, women having rights independently of fathers or husbands, integrals, differentials, other galaxies...
Homosexuality is a sin according to the Church.
No. Homosexuality, according to what a number of posters (some of them Orhtodox priests) said on this forum, is quite natural. Humans, men and women, millions and millions of them, are born with it according, obviously, with the will of our Creator. Not homosexuality, but what people do with their homosexuality is the matter of the present discourse. Historically, if people chose to not exercise their HETEROsexuality and become monks,  - that was viewed positively by the Church; but the Church never said that every single heterosexual could do it (Matthew 19:10-12). Why, then, is there this tacit presumption that every single homosexual <b>can</b> do it - i.e. become a lifelong celibate person? Yes, I understand there is a notion that they SHOULD. But CAN they? Why is it that not all HETEROsexuals can or should - and yet all HOMOsexuals can and should?

Andrew21091 said:
Can we just decide that something isn't a sin anymore? People say masturbation can reduce stress and has health benefits (or something like that) so should we then say that it isn't a sin anymore?
Well, for masturbation, at least there is a rational explanation that it is a pleasing of SELF and not that one, only one, unique person who is your spouse, who is complimenting you, who is ypur lifelong partner in theosis... For a monogamous and committed and lifelong homosexual marriage, there is no such explanation, other than that "it is not real because it cannot be real because we say so..."

Andrew21091 said:
A lot of people also cheat on their spouses, should we just say no big deal to that since everyone does it? Relationships and marriage are similar, since homosexual relations are condemned in the Bible and by the Church, then how can we allow them to marry?
YOU allow THEM???
 

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Ukiemeister said:
It is wrong to speak of understanding in this sense, which implies use of Reason. The use of reason is very dangerous when combined with the Orthodox faith. Truth in the sense of Orthodoxy is not really understood so much as it is experienced. Any understanding that is there is not from us and is not projected on to the Holy Scriptures, rather the understanding is given to us from His Revelation, which is guarded by the Church Fathers.

"The Orthodox Church does not endorse the view that the teachings of Christ have changed from time to time; rather that Christianity has remained unaltered from the moment that the Lord delivered the Faith to the Apostles (Matt. 28: 18-20). She affirms that "the faith once delivered to the saints" (Jude 3) is now what it was in the beginning. Orthodox of the twentieth century believe precisely what was believed by Orthodox of the first, the fifth, the tenth, the fifteenth centuries."

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html
The teachings of Christ haven't changed. Christ said nothing about homosexuality, and very little about sexuality at all, really. He said not to look at another person in lust. That's fine. Love =/= lust. Christ's teachings are irrelevant to this issue, because Christ said nothing about this issue at all.

If Christ had actually said, 'sex is morally wrong and should only be used when necessary for the continuation of our species' then we would be having a different discussion altogether. But he didn't.  
 

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Cheating on one's spouse is WRONG because it is a betrayal of trust, a betrayal of love, and it hurts them deeply. It involves deception and betrayal and harm.

Homosexual relations between two consenting adults who are in love is a totally seperate matter. Your analogy does not work in this debate.
 

greekischristian

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Heorhij said:
YOU allow THEM???
That's kinda how the whole religion thing works George ;)

As Ambrose Bierce put it in his 'Devil's Dictionary':

CHRISTIAN, n.
   One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor.

;D
 
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Feanor said:
Ukiemeister said:
It is wrong to speak of understanding in this sense, which implies use of Reason. The use of reason is very dangerous when combined with the Orthodox faith. Truth in the sense of Orthodoxy is not really understood so much as it is experienced. Any understanding that is there is not from us and is not projected on to the Holy Scriptures, rather the understanding is given to us from His Revelation, which is guarded by the Church Fathers.

"The Orthodox Church does not endorse the view that the teachings of Christ have changed from time to time; rather that Christianity has remained unaltered from the moment that the Lord delivered the Faith to the Apostles (Matt. 28: 18-20). She affirms that "the faith once delivered to the saints" (Jude 3) is now what it was in the beginning. Orthodox of the twentieth century believe precisely what was believed by Orthodox of the first, the fifth, the tenth, the fifteenth centuries."

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html
The teachings of Christ haven't changed. Christ said nothing about homosexuality, and very little about sexuality at all, really. He said not to look at another person in lust. That's fine. Love =/= lust. Christ's teachings are irrelevant to this issue, because Christ said nothing about this issue at all.

If Christ had actually said, 'sex is morally wrong and should only be used when necessary for the continuation of our species' then we would be having a different discussion altogether. But he didn't.  
Christ never said "Don't wear a duck on your head when shooting potatoes at an abandoned factory," either. Your point is?

The Christian life as outline in the Scriptures is neither about dead legalism nor is about doing what makes you happy or is socially acceptable. It is, however, about living a life holy and pleasing towards God.

Paul easily could have given his blessing to homosexual acts as homosexuality was widespread in the Roman empire. As was idol worship (duh). But he said neither idolaters nor homosexuals have no part in the kingdom of God.

Christians of course cannot force other people to conform to a sanctified way of living. But the institution of the Church exists not only to partake in the Body and Blood of Christ but also for the edification (spiritual, physical and moral) of its members. It is then necessary to give those who transgress over to Satan, as it were, so the transgressors can either choose the way of Satan or realise the error of his/her way and return to the Church.

If the Church's way is too harsh for you, well, atheism lets you do whatever you want and I hear that's quite popular these days.
 

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Feanor said:
Or we could recognise that the natural human desires of sexuality have traditionally been perceived as sinful, evil, wrong, etc due to an inherently flawed underpinning philosophy which stemmed from a backwards cultural zeitgeist in ancient Judaea.
Why should we use "backwards cultural zeitgeist" as a scapegoat?? And who says that cultural perspective was flawed?

Adults who love each other having sex to strengthen their loving bond should not be a sin. It strengthens and expresses love, it hurts no one.
Thank you for your opinion. However, it is quite clear that two people having sex in an relationship that is not blessed by the Church, would have a profoundly negative effect on their spiritual health.

The argument that homosexuals only have sex out of lust is, quite frankly, rubbish. They have sex for the same reasons that heterosexuals do - and you probably don't need to be reminded that even religious married couples have sex for reasons other than procreation. It strengthens their bond and forms an important part of participating in an intimate act of love within their relationship. Sexuality is healthy and forms a positive part of the human condition.


Sexuality in the proper context.

However, sexually active homosexual couples are no different from sexually active heterosexual couples in their motivations for having sex.
That's a rather broad--and unprovable--generalization.

I'm sure if homosexual couples could have kids, they would; but as we know that's not the reason that the vast majority of couples have sex, is it?
Procreation is a main goal of sexual activity.

I'm sure even the priest at your local parish uses a condom when he has sex with his wife...
That's an inappropriate comment. Not mention that the behaviour of any priest has no bearing on this. His behaviour is not YOUR concern.

Unless you want to condemn and persecute every heterosexual couple who uses condoms (and thus commit the gross social/moral irresponsibility of Roman Catholics, who tell Africans in AIDS-ravaged nations not to use contraceptives), drop the case.
Actually, contraceptives are not quite as reliable as people think, especially in Africa. Abstinence is the better option.



The scriptures were written by human beings who were inspired by God, not by God Himself. And like all human beings, the prophets, scribes, Apostles, evangelists, etc were capable of making mistakes or reflecting the cultural attitudes of their time in their works. The deeper spiritual truths of the scriptures don't lie in the literal surface meanings of the words chosen by their authors.
Debateable.

The only entity who has access to Ultimate Truth is the Ultimate Reality (i.e., God) himself. Men make mistakes. Unless you actually expect me to believe that God dictated every word of the Pentateuch to Moses on Mt Sinai - an idea which archaeological evidence and textual analysis discredits extensively.
The Church is possession of the entirety of God's revelation.

Christianity has the cause of social justice and humanism at its core, not bigotry. Religion has fostered and promoted bigotry for too long, and it has to stop.
I'm not sure where bigotry enters into anything. The Church is in opposition to homosexual behaviour, not homosexuals themselves. Everyone has a Cross to bear. And as for humanism, that is a philosophical viewpoint that is contrary to Orthodox Christianity.
 

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Feanor,

I'm guessing you haven't read much on polyamory, because in your couple posts that have touched on more than two people being in a relationship, you haven't described polyarmory at all, but rather are describing swinging or other activities. Given your ideas about love, I don't see what argument you could bring against three people being in love being together. It need not have anything to do with lust, and people in polyamorous relationships often speak of fidelity and honesty as the most important goals for keeping the relationships stable and together.
 

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Feanor said:
The teachings of Christ haven't changed. Christ said nothing about homosexuality, and very little about sexuality at all, really. He said not to look at another person in lust. That's fine. Love =/= lust. Christ's teachings are irrelevant to this issue, because Christ said nothing about this issue at all.

If Christ had actually said, 'sex is morally wrong and should only be used when necessary for the continuation of our species' then we would be having a different discussion altogether. But he didn't.
Actually, you don't know if Christ never said anything about homosexuality, because not everything He said or did was in the Bible. Which is why we rely on the Bishops, the clergy, and the Church to communicate the Divine Revelation.

Once again, I'm not really sure what is your whole issue with this. The behaviour of others is not your concern.

 

greekischristian

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Super Apostolic Bros. said:
If the Church's way is too harsh for you, well, atheism lets you do whatever you want and I hear that's quite popular these days.
Hey, I'm supposed to be the only one proselytizing for Atheism, but thanks for the assist. ;)

 

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Christ never said "Don't wear a duck on your head when shooting potatoes at an abandoned factory," either. Your point is?
Analogy fail. Maybe you should go back to first-year college Philosophy and learn the difference between morality, immorality and amorality.

The Christian life as outline in the Scriptures is neither about dead legalism nor is about doing what makes you happy or is socially acceptable. It is, however, about living a life holy and pleasing towards God.
Agreed. To get a proper understanding of what constitutes a holy life, we should perhaps examine the scriptures a bit more closely.

Paul easily could have given his blessing to homosexual acts as homosexuality was widespread in the Roman empire. As was idol worship (duh). But he said neither idolaters nor homosexuals have no part in the kingdom of God.
Yes, Paul said that. Paul was a Jew, and as we know he did and said many things from a Jewish perspective. Judaism did not approve of homosexuality for reasons which make perfect sense in the historical context of the development of Jewish Halakha.

Christians of course cannot force other people to conform to a sanctified way of living. But the institution of the Church exists not only to partake in the Body and Blood of Christ but also for the edification (spiritual, physical and moral) of its members. It is then necessary to give those who transgress over to Satan, as it were, so the transgressors can either choose the way of Satan or realise the error of his/her way and return to the Church.

If the Church's way is too harsh for you, well, atheism lets you do whatever you want and I hear that's quite popular these days.
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.
 

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Asteriktos said:
Feanor,

I'm guessing you haven't read much on polyamory, because in your couple posts that have touched on more than two people being in a relationship, you haven't described polyarmory at all, but rather are describing swinging or other activities. Given your ideas about love, I don't see what argument you could bring against three people being in love being together. It need not have anything to do with lust, and people in polyamorous relationships often speak of fidelity and honesty as the most important goals for keeping the relationships stable and together.
I understand what polyamory is, but I don't believe I referred to it in any of my posts. If I did, I was referring to 'swinging', two-timing etc. Polyamory is an entirely different kettle of fish which I didn't mean to bring into this discussion, if it seems I have done so. 
 

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Feanor said:
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.
"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11
 

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Ukiemeister said:
Once again, I'm not really sure what is your whole issue with this. The behaviour of others is not your concern.
As a Christian, social justice is of my concern. This is the human rights movement of this generation. If this was 1920, you'd be telling me how interracial marriage is sick and wrong, and that those who find themselves in love with someone of another race "have a cross to bear," and I'd be arguing that interracial love is perfectly acceptable.
 

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Feanor said:
Ukiemeister said:
Once again, I'm not really sure what is your whole issue with this. The behaviour of others is not your concern.
As a Christian, social justice is of my concern. This is the human rights movement of this generation. If this was 1920, you'd be telling me how interracial marriage is sick and wrong, and that those who find themselves in love with someone of another race "have a cross to bear," and I'd be arguing that interracial love is perfectly acceptable.
No. Because our bishops marched with MLK at Selma. Race is not homosexual behaviour. This is not a human rights issue.
 

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Ukiemeister said:
Feanor said:
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.
"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11
How do you know he wouldn't have said, 'Love one another as I have loved you' John 15:12?
 

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GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
Feanor said:
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.
"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11
How do you know he wouldn't have said, 'Love one another as I have loved you' John 15:12?
I don't. But in reference to a sexual sin, He said "Sin no more." Therefore I identified a quote from a similiar context.
 

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Ukiemeister said:
GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
Feanor said:
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.
"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11
How do you know he wouldn't have said, 'Love one another as I have loved you' John 15:12?
I don't. But in reference to a sexual sin, He said "Sin no more." Therefore I identified a quote from a similiar context.
Interesting how the entire point of the parable was a condemnation of judging the actions of others and, yet, you seem to think the important part was about sexual sin...then again, so did the Pharisees.
 

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GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
Feanor said:
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.
"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11
How do you know he wouldn't have said, 'Love one another as I have loved you' John 15:12?
I don't. But in reference to a sexual sin, He said "Sin no more." Therefore I identified a quote from a similiar context.
Interesting how the entire point of the parable was a condemnation of judging the actions of others and, yet, you seem to think the important part was about sexual sin...then again, so did the Pharisees.
I didn't say the most important part of the parable was sexual sin. Nor did I actually quote the whole parable. I quoted a specific directive from the Lord to not sin. That is all.
 

greekischristian

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Ukiemeister said:
GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
Feanor said:
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.
"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11
How do you know he wouldn't have said, 'Love one another as I have loved you' John 15:12?
I don't. But in reference to a sexual sin, He said "Sin no more." Therefore I identified a quote from a similiar context.
Interesting how the entire point of the parable was a condemnation of judging the actions of others and, yet, you seem to think the important part was about sexual sin...then again, so did the Pharisees.
I didn't say the most important part of the parable was sexual sin. Nor did I actually quote the whole parable. I quoted a specific directive from the Lord to not sin. That is all.
And, yet, you did so without offering any textual evidence that Jesus was actually opposed to homosexuality, yes we know Judaic law was and we know Paul was, but the historical Jesus was something of a social revolutionary...it's not really fair to go around putting words in his mouth when you don't really know what he believed about the matter.
 

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GiC said:
And, yet, you did so without offering any textual evidence that Jesus was actually opposed to homosexuality, yes we know Judaic law was and we know Paul was, but the historical Jesus was something of a social revolutionary...it's not really fair to go around putting words in his mouth when you don't really know what he believed about the matter.
You are correct. I hereby retract the above.
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
Feanor said:
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.
"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11
How do you know he wouldn't have said, 'Love one another as I have loved you' John 15:12?
I don't. But in reference to a sexual sin, He said "Sin no more." Therefore I identified a quote from a similiar context.
Interesting how the entire point of the parable was a condemnation of judging the actions of others and, yet, you seem to think the important part was about sexual sin...then again, so did the Pharisees.
I didn't say the most important part of the parable was sexual sin. Nor did I actually quote the whole parable. I quoted a specific directive from the Lord to not sin. That is all.
And, yet, you did so without offering any textual evidence that Jesus was actually opposed to homosexuality, yes we know Judaic law was and we know Paul was, but the historical Jesus was something of a social revolutionary...it's not really fair to go around putting words in his mouth when you don't really know what he believed about the matter.
The "historical Jesus" is the Jesus that is worshiped and followed by Orthodox Christians. As Orthodox Christians, we do not pit St. Paul against Our Lord, or Our Lord against the prophets of the Old Testament. Apart from the Orthodox Church, one can create their own subjective "Jesus" and make him into any idol they wish. But to do so is a great danger, and leads to all mannner of heresies and evil.

Christ Our Lord is the Author of the sacred Scriptures, and thus we must understand everything in the Bible in the Light of Orthodox teaching and Tradition. We cannot pick and choose certain teachings of Christ that accomodate our own personal worldview and discard the rest. That is not Orthdox. (And I do realize that you may not be Orthodox, so I am simply reiterating our Orthodox position.)

On a personal note, I must say that I always find it extremely offensive when people try to equate homosexual marriage with the civil rights movement. I am a "white" man who is married to an African American woman. We have three children. We live in Mississippi, and my father-in-law has lived through some of the most egregious forms of prejudice and racism that you could imagine. Homosexuals have not been used as chattel slaves, they have not been forced to live in the inhumane conditions of a segregated society, they have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed. Homosexuals have every right that anyone else has in this society. So this is not the great social justice or human rights issue of our time. If you really want to know who is truly being oppressed, tortured, brutalized without any recourse to the law, it's the unborn children in the womb. Abortion is the great human rights issue of our day, and Dr. King would be saying the same if he hadn't been so brutally assassinated.

Selam  
 

greekischristian

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Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
Feanor said:
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.
"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11
How do you know he wouldn't have said, 'Love one another as I have loved you' John 15:12?
I don't. But in reference to a sexual sin, He said "Sin no more." Therefore I identified a quote from a similiar context.
Interesting how the entire point of the parable was a condemnation of judging the actions of others and, yet, you seem to think the important part was about sexual sin...then again, so did the Pharisees.
I didn't say the most important part of the parable was sexual sin. Nor did I actually quote the whole parable. I quoted a specific directive from the Lord to not sin. That is all.
And, yet, you did so without offering any textual evidence that Jesus was actually opposed to homosexuality, yes we know Judaic law was and we know Paul was, but the historical Jesus was something of a social revolutionary...it's not really fair to go around putting words in his mouth when you don't really know what he believed about the matter.
The "historical Jesus" is the Jesus that is worshiped and followed by Orthodox Christians. As Orthodox Christians, we do not pit St. Paul against Our Lord, or Our Lord against the prophets of the Old Testament. Apart from the Orthodox Church, one can create their own subjective "Jesus" and make him into any idol they wish. But to do so is a great danger, and leads to all mannner of heresies and evil.

Christ Our Lord is the Author of the sacred Scriptures, and thus we must understand everything in the Bible in the Light of Orthodox teaching and Tradition. We cannot pick and choose certain teachings of Christ that accomodate our own personal worldview and discard the rest. That is not Orthdox. (And I do realize that you may not be Orthodox, so I am simply reiterating our Orthodox position.)
Rather than putting words in people's mouth why not just stick to the documentation? Feel free to say that your church teaches x, y, and z. But there is no record of Jesus' position on homosexuality, if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside to think he agreed with you, fine...but to state it as though it were a fact, that's just being dishonest.

On a personal note, I must say that I always find it extremely offensive when people try to equate homosexual marriage with the civil rights movement. I am a "white" man who is married to an African American woman. We have three children. We live in Mississippi, and my father-in-law has lived through some of the most egregious forms of prejudice and racism that you could imagine. Homosexuals have not been used as chattel slaves, they have not been forced to live in the inhumane conditions of a segregated society, they have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed. Homosexuals have every right that anyone else has in this society. So this is not the great social justice or human rights issue of our time. If you really want to know who is truly being oppressed, tortured, brutalized without any recourse to the law, it's the unborn children in the womb. Abortion is the great human rights issue of our day, and Dr. King would be saying the same if he hadn't been so brutally assassinated.
I'm a pretty offensive person, so, not to be too frank about it, but I don't really care if my opinions offend you; that's the great thing about freedom of speech. Furthermore, this whole dishonesty thing's getting pretty tiresome: 'Homosexuals...have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed.' I mean, you have access to the internet and all, don't you? Google can provide you with hundreds of stories of homosexuals being lynched, many of them sanctioned by states in which they had the misfortune of living. And oppression has not always been confined to other countries, we've had our fair share of murders here in the West and not too long ago it was even sanctioned by Western states. Alan Turing committed suicide most likely due to depression caused by forced hormone therapy in England, forced on him for being gay, a great shame as he was one of the most brilliant minds of the 20th century...to cause his life to end early was perhaps one of the greatest crimes against all of humanity in history.
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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GiC said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
Feanor said:
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.
"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11
How do you know he wouldn't have said, 'Love one another as I have loved you' John 15:12?
I don't. But in reference to a sexual sin, He said "Sin no more." Therefore I identified a quote from a similiar context.
Interesting how the entire point of the parable was a condemnation of judging the actions of others and, yet, you seem to think the important part was about sexual sin...then again, so did the Pharisees.
I didn't say the most important part of the parable was sexual sin. Nor did I actually quote the whole parable. I quoted a specific directive from the Lord to not sin. That is all.
And, yet, you did so without offering any textual evidence that Jesus was actually opposed to homosexuality, yes we know Judaic law was and we know Paul was, but the historical Jesus was something of a social revolutionary...it's not really fair to go around putting words in his mouth when you don't really know what he believed about the matter.
The "historical Jesus" is the Jesus that is worshiped and followed by Orthodox Christians. As Orthodox Christians, we do not pit St. Paul against Our Lord, or Our Lord against the prophets of the Old Testament. Apart from the Orthodox Church, one can create their own subjective "Jesus" and make him into any idol they wish. But to do so is a great danger, and leads to all mannner of heresies and evil.

Christ Our Lord is the Author of the sacred Scriptures, and thus we must understand everything in the Bible in the Light of Orthodox teaching and Tradition. We cannot pick and choose certain teachings of Christ that accomodate our own personal worldview and discard the rest. That is not Orthdox. (And I do realize that you may not be Orthodox, so I am simply reiterating our Orthodox position.)
Rather than putting words in people's mouth why not just stick to the documentation? Feel free to say that your church teaches x, y, and z. But there is no record of Jesus' position on homosexuality, if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside to think he agreed with you, fine...but to state it as though it were a fact, that's just being dishonest.

On a personal note, I must say that I always find it extremely offensive when people try to equate homosexual marriage with the civil rights movement. I am a "white" man who is married to an African American woman. We have three children. We live in Mississippi, and my father-in-law has lived through some of the most egregious forms of prejudice and racism that you could imagine. Homosexuals have not been used as chattel slaves, they have not been forced to live in the inhumane conditions of a segregated society, they have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed. Homosexuals have every right that anyone else has in this society. So this is not the great social justice or human rights issue of our time. If you really want to know who is truly being oppressed, tortured, brutalized without any recourse to the law, it's the unborn children in the womb. Abortion is the great human rights issue of our day, and Dr. King would be saying the same if he hadn't been so brutally assassinated.
I'm a pretty offensive person, so, not to be too frank about it, but I don't really care if my opinions offend you; that's the great thing about freedom of speech. Furthermore, this whole dishonesty thing's getting pretty tiresome: 'Homosexuals...have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed.' I mean, you have access to the internet and all, don't you? Google can provide you with hundreds of stories of homosexuals being lynched, many of them sanctioned by states in which they had the misfortune of living. And oppression has not always been confined to other countries, we've had our fair share of murders here in the West and not too long ago it was even sanctioned by Western states. Alan Turing committed suicide most likely due to depression caused by forced hormone therapy in England, forced on him for being gay, a great shame as he was one of the most brilliant minds of the 20th century...to cause his life to end early was perhaps one of the greatest crimes against all of humanity in history.
Orthodoxy does not condone homosexuality, not does it condemn homosexuals. Now, if you feel so strongly about justifying homosexual behavior, promoting homosexual marriage, and proliferating homosexaul propaganda, then leave Orthodoxy alone and go start a cult and worship the idolatrous sodomite hippie "Jesus" of your own vain imagination.

Selam
 

Rastaman

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Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
GiC said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
Feanor said:
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.
"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11
How do you know he wouldn't have said, 'Love one another as I have loved you' John 15:12?
I don't. But in reference to a sexual sin, He said "Sin no more." Therefore I identified a quote from a similiar context.
Interesting how the entire point of the parable was a condemnation of judging the actions of others and, yet, you seem to think the important part was about sexual sin...then again, so did the Pharisees.
I didn't say the most important part of the parable was sexual sin. Nor did I actually quote the whole parable. I quoted a specific directive from the Lord to not sin. That is all.
And, yet, you did so without offering any textual evidence that Jesus was actually opposed to homosexuality, yes we know Judaic law was and we know Paul was, but the historical Jesus was something of a social revolutionary...it's not really fair to go around putting words in his mouth when you don't really know what he believed about the matter.
The "historical Jesus" is the Jesus that is worshiped and followed by Orthodox Christians. As Orthodox Christians, we do not pit St. Paul against Our Lord, or Our Lord against the prophets of the Old Testament. Apart from the Orthodox Church, one can create their own subjective "Jesus" and make him into any idol they wish. But to do so is a great danger, and leads to all mannner of heresies and evil.

Christ Our Lord is the Author of the sacred Scriptures, and thus we must understand everything in the Bible in the Light of Orthodox teaching and Tradition. We cannot pick and choose certain teachings of Christ that accomodate our own personal worldview and discard the rest. That is not Orthdox. (And I do realize that you may not be Orthodox, so I am simply reiterating our Orthodox position.)
Rather than putting words in people's mouth why not just stick to the documentation? Feel free to say that your church teaches x, y, and z. But there is no record of Jesus' position on homosexuality, if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside to think he agreed with you, fine...but to state it as though it were a fact, that's just being dishonest.

On a personal note, I must say that I always find it extremely offensive when people try to equate homosexual marriage with the civil rights movement. I am a "white" man who is married to an African American woman. We have three children. We live in Mississippi, and my father-in-law has lived through some of the most egregious forms of prejudice and racism that you could imagine. Homosexuals have not been used as chattel slaves, they have not been forced to live in the inhumane conditions of a segregated society, they have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed. Homosexuals have every right that anyone else has in this society. So this is not the great social justice or human rights issue of our time. If you really want to know who is truly being oppressed, tortured, brutalized without any recourse to the law, it's the unborn children in the womb. Abortion is the great human rights issue of our day, and Dr. King would be saying the same if he hadn't been so brutally assassinated.
I'm a pretty offensive person, so, not to be too frank about it, but I don't really care if my opinions offend you; that's the great thing about freedom of speech. Furthermore, this whole dishonesty thing's getting pretty tiresome: 'Homosexuals...have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed.' I mean, you have access to the internet and all, don't you? Google can provide you with hundreds of stories of homosexuals being lynched, many of them sanctioned by states in which they had the misfortune of living. And oppression has not always been confined to other countries, we've had our fair share of murders here in the West and not too long ago it was even sanctioned by Western states. Alan Turing committed suicide most likely due to depression caused by forced hormone therapy in England, forced on him for being gay, a great shame as he was one of the most brilliant minds of the 20th century...to cause his life to end early was perhaps one of the greatest crimes against all of humanity in history.
Orthodoxy does not condone homosexuality, not does it condemn homosexuals. Now, if you feel so strongly about justifying homosexual behavior, promoting homosexual marriage, and proliferating homosexaul propaganda, then leave Orthodoxy alone and go start a cult and worship the idolatrous sodomite hippie "Jesus" of your own vain imagination.

Selam
Gebre. Unspoken forum rule: do not bait GiC. Do not let him get to you.
 

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Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
On a personal note, I must say that I always find it extremely offensive when people try to equate homosexual marriage with the civil rights movement. I am a "white" man who is married to an African American woman. We have three children. We live in Mississippi, and my father-in-law has lived through some of the most egregious forms of prejudice and racism that you could imagine. Homosexuals have not been used as chattel slaves, they have not been forced to live in the inhumane conditions of a segregated society, they have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed. Homosexuals have every right that anyone else has in this society. So this is not the great social justice or human rights issue of our time. If you really want to know who is truly being oppressed, tortured, brutalized without any recourse to the law, it's the unborn children in the womb. Abortion is the great human rights issue of our day, and Dr. King would be saying the same if he hadn't been so brutally assassinated.
You think homosexuals haven't been subject to disgusting persecution and discrimination throughout the history of the world? Gays are still persecuted by civil authorities in many parts of the world, executed in others, and ''correctively raped" in some countries. Homosexuals were there with Jews in Auschwitz - over 15,000 gay men and women were killed in the Holocaust, and many more were castrated, beaten, and used in hormone experiments conducted by SS doctors. Homosexuals, including young teenagers, were persecuted, tortured and executed by Christian authorities all throughout the Middle Ages, and today Sharia Law still permits and enables the execution of homosexuals in many countries. Even in countries where homosexuality is legal, gays and lesbians are still subject to bashings, discrimination and bullying. My aunt was an open lesbian at age sixteen, and was brutally bashed by several older boys from her rural community. A gay boy at the school I went to was regularly bullied by homophobic students, and the school did nothing to protect him - yet when a white student called a black student a 'black cunt' he was expelled. It was a definite double-standard. Homosexuals have been persecuted and harrassed greatly throughout history, and the church's condemnation of them is just an example of this. Do I need to remind you of victims such as Matthew Shepard, among thousands of others, who have been murdered or attacked in your very own society?

And NO, homosexuals do NOT have 'every right that anyone else has in this society.' They can't get married, even by secular civil authorities in a registrry office, far away from any conservative church. That's discrimination.

If Christians are not willing to grand homosexuals permission to marry within their church, they should at least defend their right to be safe, welcomed and accepted within secular society. It's not an issue you can dismiss and still call yourself a follower of Jesus Christ - the same applies to all human rights causes, whether they are racism, abortion, capital punishment, women's rights, slavery, human trafficking, etc.
 

greekischristian

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Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
GiC said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
Feanor said:
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.
"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11
How do you know he wouldn't have said, 'Love one another as I have loved you' John 15:12?
I don't. But in reference to a sexual sin, He said "Sin no more." Therefore I identified a quote from a similiar context.
Interesting how the entire point of the parable was a condemnation of judging the actions of others and, yet, you seem to think the important part was about sexual sin...then again, so did the Pharisees.
I didn't say the most important part of the parable was sexual sin. Nor did I actually quote the whole parable. I quoted a specific directive from the Lord to not sin. That is all.
And, yet, you did so without offering any textual evidence that Jesus was actually opposed to homosexuality, yes we know Judaic law was and we know Paul was, but the historical Jesus was something of a social revolutionary...it's not really fair to go around putting words in his mouth when you don't really know what he believed about the matter.
The "historical Jesus" is the Jesus that is worshiped and followed by Orthodox Christians. As Orthodox Christians, we do not pit St. Paul against Our Lord, or Our Lord against the prophets of the Old Testament. Apart from the Orthodox Church, one can create their own subjective "Jesus" and make him into any idol they wish. But to do so is a great danger, and leads to all mannner of heresies and evil.

Christ Our Lord is the Author of the sacred Scriptures, and thus we must understand everything in the Bible in the Light of Orthodox teaching and Tradition. We cannot pick and choose certain teachings of Christ that accomodate our own personal worldview and discard the rest. That is not Orthdox. (And I do realize that you may not be Orthodox, so I am simply reiterating our Orthodox position.)
Rather than putting words in people's mouth why not just stick to the documentation? Feel free to say that your church teaches x, y, and z. But there is no record of Jesus' position on homosexuality, if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside to think he agreed with you, fine...but to state it as though it were a fact, that's just being dishonest.

On a personal note, I must say that I always find it extremely offensive when people try to equate homosexual marriage with the civil rights movement. I am a "white" man who is married to an African American woman. We have three children. We live in Mississippi, and my father-in-law has lived through some of the most egregious forms of prejudice and racism that you could imagine. Homosexuals have not been used as chattel slaves, they have not been forced to live in the inhumane conditions of a segregated society, they have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed. Homosexuals have every right that anyone else has in this society. So this is not the great social justice or human rights issue of our time. If you really want to know who is truly being oppressed, tortured, brutalized without any recourse to the law, it's the unborn children in the womb. Abortion is the great human rights issue of our day, and Dr. King would be saying the same if he hadn't been so brutally assassinated.
I'm a pretty offensive person, so, not to be too frank about it, but I don't really care if my opinions offend you; that's the great thing about freedom of speech. Furthermore, this whole dishonesty thing's getting pretty tiresome: 'Homosexuals...have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed.' I mean, you have access to the internet and all, don't you? Google can provide you with hundreds of stories of homosexuals being lynched, many of them sanctioned by states in which they had the misfortune of living. And oppression has not always been confined to other countries, we've had our fair share of murders here in the West and not too long ago it was even sanctioned by Western states. Alan Turing committed suicide most likely due to depression caused by forced hormone therapy in England, forced on him for being gay, a great shame as he was one of the most brilliant minds of the 20th century...to cause his life to end early was perhaps one of the greatest crimes against all of humanity in history.
Orthodoxy does not condone homosexuality, not does it condemn homosexuals. Now, if you feel so strongly about justifying homosexual behavior, promoting homosexual marriage, and proliferating homosexaul propaganda, then leave Orthodoxy alone and go start a cult and worship the idolatrous sodomite hippie "Jesus" of your own vain imagination.

Selam
Well, being a cult leader could be fun...but I just settled for atheism. I know, kinda boring, but what can I say? If I was that interesting I wouldn't be spending time on an internet forum.
 

greekischristian

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Ukiemeister said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
GiC said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
Feanor said:
Tell me what you think Christ would have said if the Pharisees had brought forth to him a pair of monogamous homosexual lovers? Would he have judged and condemned them? Told them their love was invalid and wrong? "You can't love each other. Stop loving each other and force yourself to love people of the opposite sex instead, or don't love at all." That doesn't sound very Christ-like at all in my opinion.
"Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:11
How do you know he wouldn't have said, 'Love one another as I have loved you' John 15:12?
I don't. But in reference to a sexual sin, He said "Sin no more." Therefore I identified a quote from a similiar context.
Interesting how the entire point of the parable was a condemnation of judging the actions of others and, yet, you seem to think the important part was about sexual sin...then again, so did the Pharisees.
I didn't say the most important part of the parable was sexual sin. Nor did I actually quote the whole parable. I quoted a specific directive from the Lord to not sin. That is all.
And, yet, you did so without offering any textual evidence that Jesus was actually opposed to homosexuality, yes we know Judaic law was and we know Paul was, but the historical Jesus was something of a social revolutionary...it's not really fair to go around putting words in his mouth when you don't really know what he believed about the matter.
The "historical Jesus" is the Jesus that is worshiped and followed by Orthodox Christians. As Orthodox Christians, we do not pit St. Paul against Our Lord, or Our Lord against the prophets of the Old Testament. Apart from the Orthodox Church, one can create their own subjective "Jesus" and make him into any idol they wish. But to do so is a great danger, and leads to all mannner of heresies and evil.

Christ Our Lord is the Author of the sacred Scriptures, and thus we must understand everything in the Bible in the Light of Orthodox teaching and Tradition. We cannot pick and choose certain teachings of Christ that accomodate our own personal worldview and discard the rest. That is not Orthdox. (And I do realize that you may not be Orthodox, so I am simply reiterating our Orthodox position.)
Rather than putting words in people's mouth why not just stick to the documentation? Feel free to say that your church teaches x, y, and z. But there is no record of Jesus' position on homosexuality, if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside to think he agreed with you, fine...but to state it as though it were a fact, that's just being dishonest.

On a personal note, I must say that I always find it extremely offensive when people try to equate homosexual marriage with the civil rights movement. I am a "white" man who is married to an African American woman. We have three children. We live in Mississippi, and my father-in-law has lived through some of the most egregious forms of prejudice and racism that you could imagine. Homosexuals have not been used as chattel slaves, they have not been forced to live in the inhumane conditions of a segregated society, they have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed. Homosexuals have every right that anyone else has in this society. So this is not the great social justice or human rights issue of our time. If you really want to know who is truly being oppressed, tortured, brutalized without any recourse to the law, it's the unborn children in the womb. Abortion is the great human rights issue of our day, and Dr. King would be saying the same if he hadn't been so brutally assassinated.
I'm a pretty offensive person, so, not to be too frank about it, but I don't really care if my opinions offend you; that's the great thing about freedom of speech. Furthermore, this whole dishonesty thing's getting pretty tiresome: 'Homosexuals...have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed.' I mean, you have access to the internet and all, don't you? Google can provide you with hundreds of stories of homosexuals being lynched, many of them sanctioned by states in which they had the misfortune of living. And oppression has not always been confined to other countries, we've had our fair share of murders here in the West and not too long ago it was even sanctioned by Western states. Alan Turing committed suicide most likely due to depression caused by forced hormone therapy in England, forced on him for being gay, a great shame as he was one of the most brilliant minds of the 20th century...to cause his life to end early was perhaps one of the greatest crimes against all of humanity in history.
Orthodoxy does not condone homosexuality, not does it condemn homosexuals. Now, if you feel so strongly about justifying homosexual behavior, promoting homosexual marriage, and proliferating homosexaul propaganda, then leave Orthodoxy alone and go start a cult and worship the idolatrous sodomite hippie "Jesus" of your own vain imagination.

Selam
Gebre. Unspoken forum rule: do not bait GiC. Do not let him get to you.
You just broke another unspoken rule, don't speak about unspoken rules...because then they're not unspoken anymore, plus it ruins my fun. ;)
 

Rastaman

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Feanor said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
On a personal note, I must say that I always find it extremely offensive when people try to equate homosexual marriage with the civil rights movement. I am a "white" man who is married to an African American woman. We have three children. We live in Mississippi, and my father-in-law has lived through some of the most egregious forms of prejudice and racism that you could imagine. Homosexuals have not been used as chattel slaves, they have not been forced to live in the inhumane conditions of a segregated society, they have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed. Homosexuals have every right that anyone else has in this society. So this is not the great social justice or human rights issue of our time. If you really want to know who is truly being oppressed, tortured, brutalized without any recourse to the law, it's the unborn children in the womb. Abortion is the great human rights issue of our day, and Dr. King would be saying the same if he hadn't been so brutally assassinated.
You think homosexuals haven't been subject to disgusting persecution and discrimination throughout the history of the world? Gays are still persecuted by civil authorities in many parts of the world, executed in others, and ''correctively raped" in some countries. Homosexuals were there with Jews in Auschwitz - over 15,000 gay men and women were killed in the Holocaust, and many more were castrated, beaten, and used in hormone experiments conducted by SS doctors. Homosexuals, including young teenagers, were persecuted, tortured and executed by Christian authorities all throughout the Middle Ages, and today Sharia Law still permits and enables the execution of homosexuals in many countries. Even in countries where homosexuality is legal, gays and lesbians are still subject to bashings, discrimination and bullying. My aunt was an open lesbian at age sixteen, and was brutally bashed by several older boys from her rural community. A gay boy at the school I went to was regularly bullied by homophobic students, and the school did nothing to protect him - yet when a white student called a black student a 'black cunt' he was expelled. It was a definite double-standard. Homosexuals have been persecuted and harrassed greatly throughout history, and the church's condemnation of them is just an example of this. Do I need to remind you of victims such as Matthew Shepard, among thousands of others, who have been murdered or attacked in your very own society?

And NO, homosexuals do NOT have 'every right that anyone else has in this society.' They can't get married, even by secular civil authorities in a registrry office, far away from any conservative church. That's discrimination.

If Christians are not willing to grand homosexuals permission to marry within their church, they should at least defend their right to be safe, welcomed and accepted within secular society. It's not an issue you can dismiss and still call yourself a follower of Jesus Christ - the same applies to all human rights causes, whether they are racism, abortion, capital punishment, women's rights, slavery, human trafficking, etc.
Rights, rights, rights....


We have a politics board here for a reason.
 
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GiC said:
Super Apostolic Bros. said:
If the Church's way is too harsh for you, well, atheism lets you do whatever you want and I hear that's quite popular these days.
Hey, I'm supposed to be the only one proselytizing for Atheism, but thanks for the assist. ;)
I expect a little bit of reciprocity. If any of your brethren begin mumbling positive things about God, send him our way...
 

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Feanor said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
On a personal note, I must say that I always find it extremely offensive when people try to equate homosexual marriage with the civil rights movement. I am a "white" man who is married to an African American woman. We have three children. We live in Mississippi, and my father-in-law has lived through some of the most egregious forms of prejudice and racism that you could imagine. Homosexuals have not been used as chattel slaves, they have not been forced to live in the inhumane conditions of a segregated society, they have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed. Homosexuals have every right that anyone else has in this society. So this is not the great social justice or human rights issue of our time. If you really want to know who is truly being oppressed, tortured, brutalized without any recourse to the law, it's the unborn children in the womb. Abortion is the great human rights issue of our day, and Dr. King would be saying the same if he hadn't been so brutally assassinated.
You think homosexuals haven't been subject to disgusting persecution and discrimination throughout the history of the world? Gays are still persecuted by civil authorities in many parts of the world, executed in others, and ''correctively raped" in some countries. Homosexuals were there with Jews in Auschwitz - over 15,000 gay men and women were killed in the Holocaust, and many more were castrated, beaten, and used in hormone experiments conducted by SS doctors. Homosexuals, including young teenagers, were persecuted, tortured and executed by Christian authorities all throughout the Middle Ages, and today Sharia Law still permits and enables the execution of homosexuals in many countries. Even in countries where homosexuality is legal, gays and lesbians are still subject to bashings, discrimination and bullying. My aunt was an open lesbian at age sixteen, and was brutally bashed by several older boys from her rural community. A gay boy at the school I went to was regularly bullied by homophobic students, and the school did nothing to protect him - yet when a white student called a black student a 'black cunt' he was expelled. It was a definite double-standard. Homosexuals have been persecuted and harrassed greatly throughout history, and the church's condemnation of them is just an example of this. Do I need to remind you of victims such as Matthew Shepard, among thousands of others, who have been murdered or attacked in your very own society?

And NO, homosexuals do NOT have 'every right that anyone else has in this society.' They can't get married, even by secular civil authorities in a registrry office, far away from any conservative church. That's discrimination.

If Christians are not willing to grand homosexuals permission to marry within their church, they should at least defend their right to be safe, welcomed and accepted within secular society. It's not an issue you can dismiss and still call yourself a follower of Jesus Christ - the same applies to all human rights causes, whether they are racism, abortion, capital punishment, women's rights, slavery, human trafficking, etc.
Christians have been persecuted as much as - if not more so - than homosexuals.

Look, all persecution and inhumane oppression of anyone for any reason is wrong. Why doesn't the homosexual community decry the persecution and torture of Christians around the world?

The Civil Rights movement happened here in America, and the experiences of the homosexual community in America is completely incomparable to the experiences of African Americans in this country who were systematically enslaved, tortured, segregated, and oppressed. That is a fact my friend.

Selam
 

greekischristian

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Ukiemeister said:
Feanor said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
On a personal note, I must say that I always find it extremely offensive when people try to equate homosexual marriage with the civil rights movement. I am a "white" man who is married to an African American woman. We have three children. We live in Mississippi, and my father-in-law has lived through some of the most egregious forms of prejudice and racism that you could imagine. Homosexuals have not been used as chattel slaves, they have not been forced to live in the inhumane conditions of a segregated society, they have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed. Homosexuals have every right that anyone else has in this society. So this is not the great social justice or human rights issue of our time. If you really want to know who is truly being oppressed, tortured, brutalized without any recourse to the law, it's the unborn children in the womb. Abortion is the great human rights issue of our day, and Dr. King would be saying the same if he hadn't been so brutally assassinated.
You think homosexuals haven't been subject to disgusting persecution and discrimination throughout the history of the world? Gays are still persecuted by civil authorities in many parts of the world, executed in others, and ''correctively raped" in some countries. Homosexuals were there with Jews in Auschwitz - over 15,000 gay men and women were killed in the Holocaust, and many more were castrated, beaten, and used in hormone experiments conducted by SS doctors. Homosexuals, including young teenagers, were persecuted, tortured and executed by Christian authorities all throughout the Middle Ages, and today Sharia Law still permits and enables the execution of homosexuals in many countries. Even in countries where homosexuality is legal, gays and lesbians are still subject to bashings, discrimination and bullying. My aunt was an open lesbian at age sixteen, and was brutally bashed by several older boys from her rural community. A gay boy at the school I went to was regularly bullied by homophobic students, and the school did nothing to protect him - yet when a white student called a black student a 'black cunt' he was expelled. It was a definite double-standard. Homosexuals have been persecuted and harrassed greatly throughout history, and the church's condemnation of them is just an example of this. Do I need to remind you of victims such as Matthew Shepard, among thousands of others, who have been murdered or attacked in your very own society?

And NO, homosexuals do NOT have 'every right that anyone else has in this society.' They can't get married, even by secular civil authorities in a registrry office, far away from any conservative church. That's discrimination.

If Christians are not willing to grand homosexuals permission to marry within their church, they should at least defend their right to be safe, welcomed and accepted within secular society. It's not an issue you can dismiss and still call yourself a follower of Jesus Christ - the same applies to all human rights causes, whether they are racism, abortion, capital punishment, women's rights, slavery, human trafficking, etc.
Rights, rights, rights....


We have a politics board here for a reason.
Yeah, them pesky things, don't you just get sick of hearing about them? ;)

Is it just me, Ukie, or have you changed a bit while I've been on sabbatical?
 

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GiC said:
Ukiemeister said:
Feanor said:
Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
On a personal note, I must say that I always find it extremely offensive when people try to equate homosexual marriage with the civil rights movement. I am a "white" man who is married to an African American woman. We have three children. We live in Mississippi, and my father-in-law has lived through some of the most egregious forms of prejudice and racism that you could imagine. Homosexuals have not been used as chattel slaves, they have not been forced to live in the inhumane conditions of a segregated society, they have not been routinely lyched, and they do not experience oppression because of an inherent physical trait that cannot be changed. Homosexuals have every right that anyone else has in this society. So this is not the great social justice or human rights issue of our time. If you really want to know who is truly being oppressed, tortured, brutalized without any recourse to the law, it's the unborn children in the womb. Abortion is the great human rights issue of our day, and Dr. King would be saying the same if he hadn't been so brutally assassinated.
You think homosexuals haven't been subject to disgusting persecution and discrimination throughout the history of the world? Gays are still persecuted by civil authorities in many parts of the world, executed in others, and ''correctively raped" in some countries. Homosexuals were there with Jews in Auschwitz - over 15,000 gay men and women were killed in the Holocaust, and many more were castrated, beaten, and used in hormone experiments conducted by SS doctors. Homosexuals, including young teenagers, were persecuted, tortured and executed by Christian authorities all throughout the Middle Ages, and today Sharia Law still permits and enables the execution of homosexuals in many countries. Even in countries where homosexuality is legal, gays and lesbians are still subject to bashings, discrimination and bullying. My aunt was an open lesbian at age sixteen, and was brutally bashed by several older boys from her rural community. A gay boy at the school I went to was regularly bullied by homophobic students, and the school did nothing to protect him - yet when a white student called a black student a 'black cunt' he was expelled. It was a definite double-standard. Homosexuals have been persecuted and harrassed greatly throughout history, and the church's condemnation of them is just an example of this. Do I need to remind you of victims such as Matthew Shepard, among thousands of others, who have been murdered or attacked in your very own society?

And NO, homosexuals do NOT have 'every right that anyone else has in this society.' They can't get married, even by secular civil authorities in a registrry office, far away from any conservative church. That's discrimination.

If Christians are not willing to grand homosexuals permission to marry within their church, they should at least defend their right to be safe, welcomed and accepted within secular society. It's not an issue you can dismiss and still call yourself a follower of Jesus Christ - the same applies to all human rights causes, whether they are racism, abortion, capital punishment, women's rights, slavery, human trafficking, etc.
Rights, rights, rights....


We have a politics board here for a reason.
Yeah, them pesky things, don't you just get sick of hearing about them? ;)

Is it just me, Ukie, or have you changed a bit while I've been on sabbatical?
I have changed. But then, so have you. I can see your change has been for the better, I will leave it up to others to judge myself. :)
 

greekischristian

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Super Apostolic Bros. said:
GiC said:
Super Apostolic Bros. said:
If the Church's way is too harsh for you, well, atheism lets you do whatever you want and I hear that's quite popular these days.
Hey, I'm supposed to be the only one proselytizing for Atheism, but thanks for the assist. ;)
I expect a little bit of reciprocity. If any of your brethren begin mumbling positive things about God, send him our way...
Don't worry, if they start blathering about that stuff too often, I'd be happy to dump them off on you. ;)
 

Salpy

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Goodness gracious, GIC, you're back!  Where have you been?
 

greekischristian

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Salpy said:
Goodness gracious, GIC, you're back!  Where have you been?
Oh...having a real life for a short time, then I moved and started working an excessive number of hours, so here I am! ;)

How's life been treating you?
 

Salpy

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Life's been boring.  Sometimes it's better that way, though.  :)
 
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