Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread

Homosexuality comes up frequenbtly on Orthodox forums because..

  • Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet.

    Votes: 20 27.8%
  • Since drunkeness, adultery, theft and dishonesty have been eradicated it's the only sin left to figh

    Votes: 10 13.9%
  • Apparently most Orthodox Christians have lots of gay family, friends and associates

    Votes: 7 9.7%
  • Orthodox forums attract a lot of self torturing closet cases and men with doubts about thier own mas

    Votes: 20 27.8%
  • Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet.

    Votes: 15 20.8%

  • Total voters
    72
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Anastasios

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I will read your post in depth later today when I have some time, but a minor correction:

I understand the Archbishop Leo was present in the enthronement of your bishop Jonah but this is not a good motivation to cover up the truth. Actually with several of these guys we were once upon a time friends. But the Church goes above friendships and public relatonships.
I am not a member of the OCA nor is Metropolitan Jonah "my" bishop.

I am also not trying to cover up any truth.

in Christ,

Fr Anastasios
 

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Fr Anastasios

Sometimes to make oneslef understood one has to use the right arguments that would hit the right key. I don't really care if there ahve been homosexual scandals in the OCA. And I don't even want to know the names.

But here we are dealing with an unjustice. You expect me to bring to you 1000 proofs about what I am saying while

a) There are enough proofs and evidences presented
b) It very easy for me to be exposed and very easy for you if you really want THAT badly proofs to pesent what I am saying to Finnish speaking people and they will see whther it true or fraud. I cannot present more proofs that there ease and I guess my word of mouth doesn't count otherwise I could have writtten MORE than the double in here from personal experiences and discussions.

No matter what I am not going to reveal my sources so that thsese people would be persecuted. They are already dealing with persecution, nor am I goin to publish an official letter of the Finnish Synod in a forum.

And when I am talking about gay heresy, beleive me I know VERY well waht I am talking about. Becuase the latest trend in Finnish Orthodoxy is to make the Epistles and the Old Testament unreliable and "reflecting the cultural habits and ethics of the Jews, and therefore whatever St Paul said cannot be granted as a dogma. And this is because both St Paul and the Old Testament speak negatively against homosexuality.

In general in the Finnish Orthodox Church there are no moral restrictions or self control about premarital relationships, getting drunk, homosexuality, fasting (they eat breakfast and leave for the Liturgy) and in general abstaining from anything. The moto is "If Jesus Himslef didn't say anything about it, then it is not forbidden".

I can even scan and publish this statement from one "Orthodox" magazine but agian it is in Finnish and as we all know my transaltions are unreliable. The same if I published the article saying that Jesus had special relationship with St John.

The situation in the Finnish CHurch is becasue of the low scandinavian morals as well ecumenism. Their idea is instead of bringing the church spirit in the world to bring the wordly spirit in the church and approaching the (rotten) society this way.

In the Lutheran CHurch the situation is outrageous. Recently a second pastor became trasnexual pastoress thanks to the pressure on the Lutheran Church by Yhteys (members of which are the Orthodox priests of Helsinki as well as the Secretary of Ecumenical counsel, an Orthodox Priest.).

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Transgender+Lutheran+vicar+wants+to+continue+his+pastoral+work/1135241026162

also

Finnish pastor causes controversy by blessing lesbian couple
A a pastor from Finland's state-supported Evangelical Lutheran Church went against church rules by blessing the partnership of a lesbian couple, according to the Finnish Broadcasting Company.

The Rev. Liisa Tuovinen, who performed the blessing, is not expected to be reprimanded unless somebody makes a formal complaint.

Lutheran bishops are expected to discuss their position on the issue of same-sex blessings next year.

Finland is considered to be liberal when it comes to gay rights issues and registered-partnerships came into being in 2002.


The fact is that Orthodox priest Huttunen OPENLY cooperates with Protestant pastoress Tuovinen in Yhteys ecumenist gay club and the Orthodox bishop simply ACCEPTS it.

In order to realize what the situation in Finland is Tuovinen, performed a ecclesiastical gay blessing for the lesbian couple and NOONE DARES to protest so that this blessing is eccelsiasticaly illegal.

THE SAME ideas are shared by Huttunen who also suggested in Aamun Koitto Orthodox blessing of the gay couples. And he still holds his position as an Orthodox parish priest adn a representative of the Orthodox CHurch in the Ecumensit counsil and the Ecumenist gay club Yhteys.

Now if you believe that all what I am saying is fiction please pay for me a transaltor or even better find a place for me in Hollywood as a movie-script writter so that I can at least make money.
 

ialmisry

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Theoprovlitos said:
Fr Anastasios

Sometimes to make oneslef understood one has to use the right arguments that would hit the right key. I don't really care if there ahve been homosexual scandals in the OCA. And I don't even want to know the names.

But here we are dealing with an unjustice. You expect me to bring to you 1000 proofs about what I am saying while

a) There are enough proofs and evidences presented
b) It very easy for me to be exposed and very easy for you if you really want THAT badly proofs to pesent what I am saying to Finnish speaking people and they will see whther it true or fraud. I cannot present more proofs that there ease and I guess my word of mouth doesn't count otherwise I could have writtten MORE than the double in here from personal experiences and discussions.

No matter what I am not going to reveal my sources so that thsese people would be persecuted. They are already dealing with persecution, nor am I goin to publish an official letter of the Finnish Synod in a forum.
Why not?  Official usually means public.

And when I am talking about gay heresy, beleive me I know VERY well waht I am talking about. Becuase the latest trend in Finnish Orthodoxy is to make the Epistles and the Old Testament unreliable and "reflecting the cultural habits and ethics of the Jews, and therefore whatever St Paul said cannot be granted as a dogma. And this is because both St Paul and the Old Testament speak negatively against homosexuality.

In general in the Finnish Orthodox Church there are no moral restrictions or self control about premarital relationships, getting drunk, homosexuality, fasting (they eat breakfast and leave for the Liturgy) and in general abstaining from anything. The moto is "If Jesus Himslef didn't say anything about it, then it is not forbidden".
Although it's been a while since I've been in Finnland, and I don't speak Finnish (they speak English though), this doesn't strike me as the Church I saw in the late 80's.

Where exactly are you, that you have the pulse on the Church of Finland, and on the Church of Indonesia?

I can even scan and publish this statement from one "Orthodox" magazine but agian it is in Finnish and as we all know my transaltions are unreliable. The same if I published the article saying that Jesus had special relationship with St John.

The situation in the Finnish CHurch is becasue of the low scandinavian morals as well ecumenism. Their idea is instead of bringing the church spirit in the world to bring the wordly spirit in the church and approaching the (rotten) society this way.

In the Lutheran CHurch the situation is outrageous. Recently a second pastor became trasnexual pastoress thanks to the pressure on the Lutheran Church by Yhteys (members of which are the Orthodox priests of Helsinki as well as the Secretary of Ecumenical counsel, an Orthodox Priest.).

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Transgender+Lutheran+vicar+wants+to+continue+his+pastoral+work/1135241026162

also

Finnish pastor causes controversy by blessing lesbian couple
A a pastor from Finland's state-supported Evangelical Lutheran Church went against church rules by blessing the partnership of a lesbian couple, according to the Finnish Broadcasting Company.

The Rev. Liisa Tuovinen, who performed the blessing, is not expected to be reprimanded unless somebody makes a formal complaint.

Lutheran bishops are expected to discuss their position on the issue of same-sex blessings next year.

Finland is considered to be liberal when it comes to gay rights issues and registered-partnerships came into being in 2002.


The fact is that Orthodox priest Huttunen OPENLY cooperates with Protestant pastoress Tuovinen in Yhteys ecumenist gay club and the Orthodox bishop simply ACCEPTS it.

In order to realize what the situation in Finland is Tuovinen, performed a ecclesiastical gay blessing for the lesbian couple and NOONE DARES to protest so that this blessing is eccelsiasticaly illegal.

THE SAME ideas are shared by Huttunen who also suggested in Aamun Koitto Orthodox blessing of the gay couples. And he still holds his position as an Orthodox parish priest adn a representative of the Orthodox CHurch in the Ecumensit counsil and the Ecumenist gay club Yhteys.

Now if you believe that all what I am saying is fiction please pay for me a transaltor or even better find a place for me in Hollywood as a movie-script writter so that I can at least make money.
 

Fr. George

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For those interested in Finnish to English translations (or Finnish to any other major language), try: translate.google.com
 

DerekMK

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cleveland said:
For those interested in Finnish to English translations (or Finnish to any other major language), try: translate.google.com
Google translator has a definite gay bias to it.  It is also owned by masons. 
 

Veniamin

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Νεκτάριος said:
cleveland said:
For those interested in Finnish to English translations (or Finnish to any other major language), try: translate.google.com
Google translator has a definite gay bias to it.  It is also owned by masons. 
Gay masons, at that.
 

CRCulver

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Again, people should stop jumping on Theoprovlitos. His concerns are valid. Just spend some time here, and you'll see that support for gay relationships is very much in the air among the Finns (much less so the Russians worshipping in churches here, of course).

For my part, even more disturbing than the increasing tolerance of homosexual relationships, which is not yet fully implemented, is the Church of Finland's open communion. Every Sunday in Uspensky you can see tourists going up and being given the Eucharist, some of whom aren't even Christian (I spoke to one such tourist once after the service, who turned out to be happily Hindu). Isn't the Lord's Body and Blood to be guarded with severity?

Then you have a problem with the Church of Finland commissioning liturgical music from non-Orthodox (or even non-Christians).

Again, I just can't wait to get out of here and spend all my time in a Church that seems in tune with world Orthodoxy.
 

Anastasios

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CRCulver said:
Again, people should stop jumping on Theoprovlitos. His concerns are valid. Just spend some time here, and you'll see that support for gay relationships is very much in the air among the Finns (much less so the Russians worshipping in churches here, of course).

For my part, even more disturbing than the increasing tolerance of homosexual relationships, which is not yet fully implemented, is the Church of Finland's open communion. Every Sunday in Uspensky you can see tourists going up and being given the Eucharist, some of whom aren't even Christian (I spoke to one such tourist once after the service, who turned out to be happily Hindu). Isn't the Lord's Body and Blood to be guarded with severity?

Then you have a problem with the Church of Finland commissioning liturgical music from non-Orthodox (or even non-Christians).

Again, I just can't wait to get out of here and spend all my time in a Church that seems in tune with world Orthodoxy.
Of course his concerns are valid. I for one am not disputing that at all.

But Christians have to be very careful when they make basically charges of heresy against a bishop. That was the point being consistently made.
 

Andrew21091

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CRCulver said:
For my part, even more disturbing than the increasing tolerance of homosexual relationships, which is not yet fully implemented, is the Church of Finland's open communion. Every Sunday in Uspensky you can see tourists going up and being given the Eucharist, some of whom aren't even Christian (I spoke to one such tourist once after the service, who turned out to be happily Hindu). Isn't the Lord's Body and Blood to be guarded with severity?
What? Is this true?

That is terrible, I can't imagine that they could do that. If this is going on why haven't the other Orthodox Church bodies broke communion with them?
 

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Well because some people ask.

I have been cooperating in the past with the Youth Foundation of the Church of Greece  as well as the department of external relations. I am a founding member of the Balkan Orthodox Youth Association. I am  correspondant of the Orthodox Magazine Road to Emmaus, an Orthodox publisher and distributor and I cooperate with Light and Life publishing, Eighth Day books, St Nektarios Press, St Vladimirs and St Tikhons Bookstore, Holy Cross bookstore etc.

I am also leading pilgrimages in Greece, but also Southern Italy, Turkey and Bulgaria.

In 2007 I was on a tour with American friends to the Western and Central states and visited several parishes of various jurisdictions.

I know in person Serbian bishop Maxim of Western America and Bulgarian bishop Joseph of America and Australia

I am originally a Greek from Alexandria, Egypt and my wife is a Finn. I cooperate with all orthodox boosktores in Finland, New Valaam and Litula monasteries as well as with the youth group of the Diocese of Helsinki.


Many of these people have been our friends and guests at home. BUT when I realized that nice people who were converts and were studying in Greece when they were going back to Finland they were spiritually ruined due to ecumenist heresies introduced but a specific group in the Finnish Chruch who gradually is taking over all positions in the Church while those who protest are being called as fundamentalists and fanatic zealots, homophobic etc I decided to stand up and do what I can.

My wife and kids are registered in the Finnish Orthodox Church but with the first opportunity we are going to unregister.

My major concern is that people all over the world will get to know Orthodoxy but the right way. Not excessive zealotism neither ecumenism that corrupts Orthodox dogmas.

I know that many don't like what I am wrting and I am now exposed but my Faith, Christ and the Church are above business and Public relations.

Do these make me more reliable?
 

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No, they don't make you more reliable.

Corroboration makes you more reliable.  Going on about all the nice stuff you do doesn't.
 

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I did find this.

http://ochlophobist.blogspot.com/2008/11/this-from-here-ht-to-fr.html
 

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Andrew

THIS is what I am trying to do. Bring the issue on the surface! What was written about Communion to tourists in Helsinki is true.
You should see what is going on in Tapiola St Herman of Alaska Church whichas been turned to a gay club. Even married lesbians and many gay couples attend the service and receive communion as if nothing is wrong.

They don't even FAST anymore. The Romanian friend from Finland can probaly confrm whay I am saying.
 

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Theoprovlitos said:
Andrew

THIS is what I am trying to do. Bring the issue on the surface! What was written about Communion to tourists in Helsinki is true.
You should see what is going on in Tapiola St Herman of Alaska Church whichas been turned to a gay club. Even married lesbians and many gay couples attend the service and receive communion as if nothing is wrong.

They don't even FAST anymore. The Romanian friend from Finland can probaly confrm whay I am saying.
Lord have mercy.
 

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Well Veniamin,

I cannot present more proofs in English that there are, unless I start... making up some.

Anyway lingusitic isolation of the Church of Finland has brought her here where she is now. Because if they were speaking English EVERYBODY would have access to their writings and fallacies a long time ago and my presence here wouldn't be necessary.

All you can do is pray for those who resist and who are scattered "for the fear of the Jews". The last stronghold is Valaam Monastery but they are threatening it with boycott.
 

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Theoprovlitos said:
Do these make me more reliable?
I've run into this sort of thing a lot through my contacts with the some of the organisations you mentioned in Greece - an absolute love of using unsourced gossip.  Among informal settings, I was often subjected to this sort of thing "I heard x,y,z and I know it's true because so and so told me".  Very often x,y,z ended up being something completely ludicrous (that no Jews were killed on 9/11 since the Mossad warned them all to stay home).  The problem is that when these sorts of ideas are mixed in with legitimate Orthodox ideas, most people dismiss all of what is said.  

I've never been to Finland, but I do know some Russians who have - and the description about the Orthodox Church there has never been entirely positive.  So the accusations you make seem entirely plausible to me.  On the other hand, if you are going to publicly make them, you had better have very solid evidence.  In Western culture that means independent sources that corroborate your thesis.  If you can put together such a document that presents your case with solid sources, then it certainly would be an asset to the Church and I'd hope that action would be taken (either the Church in Finland be cleaned up, or excommunicated).  

Also, the bit about Masons is old news.  Even mentioning them as some sort of conspiratorial group makes any point you have to make laughable to most Western readers.      
 

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Theoprovlitos said:
Well Veniamin,

I cannot present more proofs in English that there are, unless I start... making up some.

Anyway lingusitic isolation of the Church of Finland has brought her here where she is now. Because if they were speaking English EVERYBODY would have access to their writings and fallacies a long time ago and my presence here wouldn't be necessary.

All you can do is pray for those who resist and who are scattered "for the fear of the Jews". The last stronghold is Valaam Monastery but they are threatening it with boycott.
Then perhaps your wife and others who feel this is a serious issue would be willing to translate texts? 
 

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I'll cover a few things before I'm done with this topic, because it's exhausting. Is this what the early fathers went through in defending the chruch? :)

First, there's nothing wrong with homosexuals attending divine services. However they should be under the priest's spiritual direction. For example, there is a homosexual man in my parish, but he has devoted himself to a life of celibacy and receives counseling from our priest. He receives all the sacraments as a normal Orthodox Christian. I don't think he should be denied because he has an innate attraction to men. I don't think I could just up and stop being attracted to women. I don't think think it's kosher, though, to have practicing homosexual couples receiving the sacraments. If you're homosexual and embrace it, you obviously don't have a place in the church.

Second, just having clerics participating in a conference doesn't mean they accept what is going on. Honestly, I don't approve of it either, but it seems as though they are just presenting the Orthodox views on sexuality: "General secterary, Father Heikki Huttunen, Ecumenical Counsel of Finland, Orthodox church of Finland: Human sexuality in the Orthodox theology ". There's nothing wrong with presenting our views. It doesn't say "Fr. X of the OC will speak about the church's coming acceptance of homosexuality". Obviously that would be heretical.

Third, while I am deeply saddened to hear some of the things that may be going on in the Orthodox Church of Finland, I am tempered by the fact that the true church of Christ will always live on in her true faithful. As St. Paul says in 1 Cor. 11:18-19 "For, in the first place, when you assemble as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized." I understand that we must do our best to keep the church from going astray, but our bishops are supposed to bear the blunt of it as the leaders of their respective flocks. As yet, I haven't heard any bishops speak out against the Finnish church. Hopefully they will.

Last, am I a heretic for consorting with people of other faiths? I don't believe them, but they're my friends, and I coexist with them and pray for them just as a Christian should. For pete's sake, there are those in the church that would describe us as heretical because we no longer go by the Julian Calendar. How far do we go? Avoiding people of other beliefs isn't always the answer. You don't have to condone their beliefs. Should we stop consorting with Jews? After all, they did crucify our Savior....
 

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From someone who actually reads Finnish...

The Forum is organized as part of an European wide annual event. It seems to be Finland's turn. It is hosted by Arcus Group in co-operation with Yhteys Movement and Orthodox Rainbow Society. The Arcus and the Yhteys Movement are ecumenical movements focusing on LBGT issues.  The Orthodox Rainbow Society is specific to Orthodox people. All are independent organizations who have no official affiliations with the Orthodox Church in Finland. Father Heikki Huttunen who is the head of the Finnish Ecumenical Council seems to be also member of Yhteys, but he seems to be participating as a private individual. He lists his title as pastor, and does not use the title Father. On the list only one other person is listed as pastor. All the the other people seem to be lay people.

I checked for any metions on homosexuality on the Orthodox Church of Finalnd site and could not find anything that would differ from official Orthodox dogma. Certainly there is no mention either on the Ecumenical Council site or the Orthodox Church of Finland site of the Forum.

It seems to me that a group of Orthodox Finns feel differently about the teachings and are creating a movement around it and are forcing the church to talk about it.

This is of course quite different than saying that the Orthodox Church of Finland is organizing the Forum.

I have not been able to verify the program yet, even on the site of the organization hosting it.
 
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