Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread

[PoorFoolNicholas]

I doubt you'll get any apologies from this one. Nicholasdamus strikes again!

 

[Theoprovlitos]

Have you ever written for JesusisSaviour.com? Why is it that when someone disagrees with you, suddenly this grand conspiracy just happens to unfold? Maybe you could provide something that you don't have to translate for us. You certainly can realize why we don't trust your conclusions. But to accuse someone that disagrees of being, OR possibly being a homosexual, is ridiculous. I posit that once no one cares about your "pet" theories anymore, we will never hear from you again. You certainly fit the mold of conspiritorial cranks that pop up on this forum from time to time. And please stop referring to those of a homosexual persuasion as "a gay". It is offensive, and uncharitable. You lose even more credibility when you use coarse speech such as this.

Nicholas are you kidding me? I have PRESENTED several links, official links in English and some people SYSTEMATICLY rejected for reasosn that are beyond reason and logic.

Then I was right to believe -according to your words- that this forum is some kind of inquisition. You just wrote "translate to US" and "WE don't trust your conclusions". Who is that "US" you are referring to. Some court? Some specific group? Some Cult? Who is that "WE" thst you mention that I have to proof my credibility to. Cause it CERTAINLY not the readers of this forum because several responded in apositive way, especially that guy who LIVES in Helsinki and confirmed the truth of my words. But to "YOU" his testimony is aslo not trust worthy, not the opinion of other readers here, nor the links, not photos, not publications".
Well I am telling "YOU" thhat you have finally managed to make this forum as well as Orthodoxchristianity.net UNRELIABLE and UNTRUSTWORTHY, because "YOU" attack whoever is presenting here some facts.

I do not know who runs this place or is it abandoned to Orthodox Ninjas who attack people in an ORCHASTRATED way if they don't like what people say.

I would also give an advice to any of you people who are not orthodox but zealously pretend to be that please, DON'T become orthodox. Go to another, more totalitarian church that suits better the atmosphere in here  and that knoes all the technics of mind control and manipulation of free though and speach. "YOU" are still beginners but in a church like "Jehova's witnesses" you would do A LOT BETTER, cause you would only have to read the "Watchtower"  and the most important of all: It would be in ENGLISH!

PS. Am I calling homosexuals as "gay" or are they calling themselves as "gay" to make it even sound as a positive thing to be or to become?

 

[PoorFoolNicholas]

Nicholas are you kidding me? I have PRESENTED several links, official links in English and some people SYSTEMATICLY rejected for reasosn that are beyond reason and logic.

Then I was right to believe -according to your words- that this forum is some kind of inquisition. You just wrote "translate to US" and "WE don't trust your conclusions". Who is that "US" you are referring to. Some court? Some specific group? Some Cult? Who is that "WE" thst you mention that I have to proof my credibility to. Cause it CERTAINLY not the readers of this forum because several responded in apositive way, especially that guy who LIVES in Helsinki and confirmed the truth of my words. But to "YOU" his testimony is aslo not trust worthy, not the opinion of other readers here, nor the links, not photos, not publications".
Well I am telling "YOU" thhat you have finally managed to make this forum as well as Orthodoxchristianity.net UNRELIABLE and UNTRUSTWORTHY, because "YOU" attack whoever is presenting here some facts.

I do not know who runs this place or is it abandoned to Orthodox Ninjas who attack people in an ORCHASTRATED way if they don't like what people say.

I would also give an advice to any of you people who are not orthodox but zealously pretend to be that please, DON'T become orthodox. Go to another, more totalitarian church that suits better the atmosphere in here  and that knoes all the technics of mind control and manipulation of free though and speach. "YOU" are still beginners but in a church like "Jehova's witnesses" you would do A LOT BETTER, cause you would only have to read the "Watchtower"  and the most important of all: It would be in ENGLISH!

PS. Am I calling homosexuals as "gay" or are they calling themselves as "gay" to make it even sound as a positive thing to be or to become?

You are right. I am the leader of the OCNET resistance. "Facts" have yet to be presented. Your blog isn't fact, it is opinion. I can start a blog saying that my Metropolitan is an Alien from (136472) Makemake, but that doesn't make it a fact. Blogs are not seen as authoritative. We are primarily English speakers on this site, yet you keep giving us info in another language. That is not our fault. We cannot read the info for ourselves and make a logical, and intelligent decision about the subject you are referring to. I also don't see this Grand Orchestration that you speak of. You tend to get a lot of flack on here because of your methods, not your topic for discussion.

 

[soufliotiki]

Can I be a little uncourteous and ask why other people's sinful laundry are being aired publicaly?

Should we not in an act of Orthodox love hide our fellow brethren's trespasses and pray to God to give them enlightenment? If anything, if it is a serious problem ... one should go direct to their hierarchies with the proper ecclesiastical formalities and if as a response we do not achieve what we hoped in an act of obedience ..... stop there and continue in prayer to God.


What good does publicising others sins do other than to bring shame, gossip and evil into the equation?

Our ends do not justify our means ... I was reading Saint Silouan where Arch. Sophrony mentions that the Saint would say (something along the lines of) if good is not employed to achieve good then the end result is not truly good ...

God Bless.

 

[CRCulver]

soufliotiki, airing these problems publicly can get hierarchs of other Orthodox bodies like the Russian Orthodox Church to voice their dismay, which has often been a powerful tool in suppressing modernist innovations. Individual national churches might go in all sorts of weird directions were they not kept in check by their Orthodox brethren elsewhere.

 

[PoorFoolNicholas]

soufliotiki, airing these problems publicly can get hierarchs of other Orthodox bodies like the Russian Orthodox Church to voice their dismay, which has often been a powerful tool in suppressing modernist innovations. Individual national churches might go in all sorts of weird directions were they not kept in check by their Orthodox brethren elsewhere.

When the facts are clearly, and definitively presented for all to see, and understand. Which has NOT happened yet.

 

[CRCulver]

When the facts are clearly, and definitively presented for all to see, and understand. Which has NOT happened yet.

I'm satisfied that they have already been presented well enough to attract the attention of our neighbours. I'm happy with that. If a few people on a message board don't get the very real problems here, then I'm not going to worry about it.

 

[PoorFoolNicholas]

When the facts are clearly, and definitively presented for all to see, and understand. Which has NOT happened yet.

I'm satisfied that they have already been presented well enough to attract the attention of our neighbours. I'm happy with that. If a few people on a message board don't get the very real problems here, then I'm not going to worry about it.

Yes the many Patriarchates are watching OCNET avidly waiting for dirt on other jurisdictions. Come on! : : :

 

[CRCulver]

Yes the many Patriarchates are watching OCNET avidly waiting for dirt on other jurisdictions. Come on! : : :

Well, the Russian Orthodox Church, for example, is getting its information on the Church of Finland's dangerous behaviour from somewhere. Of course no one with any authority is reading OC.net, but drumming up awareness internationally is always good and eventually word of mouth will bring these complaints to the ears of someone.

 

[Irish Hermit]

Well, the Russian Orthodox Church, for example, is getting its information on the Church of Finland's dangerous behaviour from somewhere.

My dear brother,

You are right.  Here is a statement from the priest who heads the Secretariat for Inter-Orthodox Relations of ROCOR.

"When this Finnish aberration was discovered, the Secretariat for
Inter-Orthodox Relations of the ROCOR sent a formal note expressing
deep concern about this issue to the Department of External Relations
of the Moscow Patriarchate.

"A response was received, informing us that the MP had already been
informed of the Finnish situation by the local MP priest there, and
that an appropriate measures would be taken.

"(Of course, the Orthodox Church of Finland is an autonomous
Archbishopric under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate,
so that neither the Moscow Patriarchate nor ROCOR have any authority
over it).

"... Both the ROCOR and the MP have taken note of the situation with
regards to this "Rainbow" Conference in Finland, and are in communication
as to how to condemn it in the strongest possible way.


"With love in Christ,
"Prot. Alexander Lebedeff"

 

[Aristobolus]

Theoprovlitos,

Thank you for your very enlightening, yet disturbing post.  I did a quick search on this issue and found an interesting article from an interesting site:  http://www.rainbowchristians.com/articles/entry/Homosexuality-issue-Complicating-Relationships-Between-the-Orthodox-in-Russia-and-Finland

The only caution I would add is not to jump to the conclusion that if someone has a hard time digesting that an Orthodox church is accepting of the perversion of homosexuality, that they themselves struggle with it.  It may be for example age:  many of those over about sixty have a hard time believing that an O. Church would begin to tolerate sodomy.  But remember that the O. Church in Finland is small, and it is a State church (along with the "Lutheran church" there).  Therefore the O. Church in Finland has the choice:  either accept the tolerant agenda of liberal Scandanavia, or suffer persecution for the sake of Christ.  For whoever loves Christ keeps His commandments.

 

[PeterTheAleut]

Of course no one with any authority is reading OC.net,

You'd be surprised at who DOES read OC.net.

 

[Jake]

• 21.00-Orthodox vesper, supper, saunas

Better than the sacristry as happens elsewhere.   :

Saunas are a normal part of Finish culture.  They are also a regular part of Russian culture.  Of course each time I went to the sauna (баня in Russian) it was a massive orgy of gay sex, so maybe you have a point.  Of course, you wouldn't want to take into account not imposing American cultural norms on a situation before making a snap judgement.  

Just visit the Finnish Orthodox Monastery of New Valamo and you will find a sauna right by the lake.  It is a part of their culture and nothing evil.

 

[Jake]

However I want to make clear that what I am writing here are not dogmatic problems of Orthodoxy, but on the contrary they are problems of the Protestant chrches which since they rejected the church traditions and dogmas they are TOO weak anymore to confront the heretical people who appeared through the ages. This phenomenon in Finland gives us an idea what has been happening again and again when various deluded people thought they "could save the world" and that ALL others were wrong or missing something and all of a sudden it was THEM that the "Holy Sprit" showed them the truth.
I am married to a exprotestant Finn and we have so many friends and relatives there. SO it is not question of talking and living with them on a INDIVIDUAL base. But as  a CHURCH the only thing that can happen is CATASTROPHY.

These statements may provide some insight: the Lutheran Church in Finland recently had a group of its fundamentalists leave and register an alternative Lutheran Church.

Secondly, the Lutherans in Finland still have sour grapes over the fact that that Archbishop Ambrosius of the Finnish Orthodox Church left the Lutheran Church to convert to Orthodoxy.  He is a very personable man, a gifted linguist and and well educated with graduate degrees in both theology and political science.

I met him at the University of Toronto a number of years ago when he was the keynote speaker at a Conferece "Orthodoxy in Finland" organized by the Finnish Studies Department of the University of Toronto.  The conference attracted people interested in Finnish Studies plus a large group of people who were of the Orthodox faith and interested in Orthodoxy.  One of the university professors told me that the Lutherans in Finland were very upset about Archbishop Ambrosius converting to Orthodoxy and the romours had spread that he was homosexual and that the monastery "New Valamo" was filled with homosexuals.  I myself doubt that there is any truth to the rumours about the monastery or Archbishop Ambrosius whom I thought was a very sincere and spiritual man.

 

[Orest]

However I want to make clear that what I am writing here are not dogmatic problems of Orthodoxy, but on the contrary they are problems of the Protestant chrches which since they rejected the church traditions and dogmas they are TOO weak anymore to confront the heretical people who appeared through the ages. This phenomenon in Finland gives us an idea what has been happening again and again when various deluded people thought they "could save the world" and that ALL others were wrong or missing something and all of a sudden it was THEM that the "Holy Sprit" showed them the truth.
I am married to a exprotestant Finn and we have so many friends and relatives there. SO it is not question of talking and living with them on a INDIVIDUAL base. But as  a CHURCH the only thing that can happen is CATASTROPHY.

These statements may provide some insight: the Lutheran Church in Finland recently had a group of its fundamentalists leave and register an alternative Lutheran Church.

Secondly, the Lutherans in Finland still have sour grapes over the fact that that Archbishop Ambrosius of the Finnish Orthodox Church left the Lutheran Church to convert to Orthodoxy.  He is a very personable man, a gifted linguist and and well educated with graduate degrees in both theology and political science.

I met him at the University of Toronto a number of years ago when he was the keynote speaker at a Conferece "Orthodoxy in Finland" organized by the Finnish Studies Department of the University of Toronto.  The conference attracted people interested in Finnish Studies plus a large group of people who were of the Orthodox faith and interested in Orthodoxy.  One of the university professors told me that the Lutherans in Finland were very upset about Archbishop Ambrosius converting to Orthodoxy and the romours had spread that he was homosexual and that the monastery "New Valamo" was filled with homosexuals.  I myself doubt that there is any truth to the rumours about the monastery or Archbishop Ambrosius whom I thought was a very sincere and spiritual man.

Thanks, that does explain a lot.
If any of what Theoprovlitosthis claims were true, I really think the Ecumenical Patriarchate would step it.  Afterall the Finnish Orthodox Church is under the EP.  I suspect Theoprovlitosthis may have already contacted the EP and the EP found his claims unsubstantiated.  So he is turning to the internet to discredit the Finns.

From "googling" Father Heikki Huttunen, I see that he has been very active as the representative of the Finnish Orthodox Church since the early 1990's in ecumenical dialogue with various churches.  His works that are on the intenet follow the traditional Orthodox view.  Theoprovlitos seems to object to any ecumenical activity at all.  I think this adds to his distrust of Fr. Heikki Huttunen.  The EP as well as the MP, and other Orthodox churches are are involved in ecumenical dialogue.  WE must follow the command of Christ "That all may be one."  This is an important mission and witness for the Orthodox Church.

 

[Theoprovlitos]

Can I be a little uncourteous and ask why other people's sinful laundry are being aired publicaly?

Should we not in an act of Orthodox love hide our fellow brethren's trespasses and pray to God to give them enlightenment? If anything, if it is a serious problem ... one should go direct to their hierarchies with the proper ecclesiastical formalities and if as a response we do not achieve what we hoped in an act of obedience ..... stop there and continue in prayer to God.


What good does publicising others sins do other than to bring shame, gossip and evil into the equation?

Our ends do not justify our means ... I was reading Saint Silouan where Arch. Sophrony mentions that the Saint would say (something along the lines of) if good is not employed to achieve good then the end result is not truly good ...

God Bless.

Soufliotiki

What you have suggested has ALL been done since many years ago. First these guys have received many protests and letter from faithful in private. Then the leaders of the Finnish Orthodox CHurch have been asked to interfere and stop this mess for the good of the Church. They didn't do ANYTHING, simply because they more or less agree with that trash. Then the Church of Russia has been informed by many believers and they responded by expressing their concern about what is going on with the Church of Finland. The Church of Greece and of Crete have also been informed as well as the Ecumenical Patriarchate who send an official letter to the Synod of the Church of Finland. Because the Synod of Church of Finland is of course fully guilty they send an official reply to the Ecumenical Patriarchate which wsa full of lies and false explenations.

Of course the EP could not call them lieres and had no other option but accept their letter as true. Since then that was it! The rotten people among the Finnish Church came out openly and aggressively with their activity. In one word: UNCONTROLABLE.

More protests by people were ignored so there was no other way than bringing this to PUBLICITY and presenting their works of darkness so that it becomes a Panorthodox issue and so that the faithfil in Finland will stop being spiritually adn emotionally abused by the heretics.

What you are suggesting is that in case we have a priest in the church who is an offender pretend not to see him abuse children adn cover it up so that we don't make his sin public? Is that that you suggest.

However this is NOT the case. Nobody published if a bishop is homosexual or with whom does he go to bed, or if he leads an immoral life. We are talking about HERESY, alteration of Orthodox dogmas and ethics and keeping out mouth shut would make us as guilty as themselves.

 

[Theoprovlitos]

Theoprovlitos,

Thank you for your very enlightening, yet disturbing post.  I did a quick search on this issue and found an interesting article from an interesting site:  http://www.rainbowchristians.com/articles/entry/Homosexuality-issue-Complicating-Relationships-Between-the-Orthodox-in-Russia-and-Finland

The only caution I would add is not to jump to the conclusion that if someone has a hard time digesting that an Orthodox church is accepting of the perversion of homosexuality, that they themselves struggle with it.  It may be for example age:  many of those over about sixty have a hard time believing that an O. Church would begin to tolerate sodomy.  But remember that the O. Church in Finland is small, and it is a State church (along with the "Lutheran church" there).  Therefore the O. Church in Finland has the choice:  either accept the tolerant agenda of liberal Scandanavia, or suffer persecution for the sake of Christ.  For whoever loves Christ keeps His commandments.

Dear Aristobolus

Thanks for your support because it seems some people are determined to wither me. However UNFORTUNATELY no matter what you say is true this is not the case with Finland. These people many of them which I happen to know are not ready to suffer any persecution for the sake of Christ. On the contrary, THEY are persecuting those who protest.
Second many of them are openly homosexuals themselves, one of them is married with a man, and their agent is to introduce homosexuality in the church using even "theological" arguments for it which are of course fallacies. And they are so rotten that for example the Theological Secretary of the Archbishop Leo, Jyrki Harkonen, member of the Ecumenist Gay Organization Yhteys and friends of the Orthodox Gay Group "Sateenkaariseura" has pulished in the latter one one terrible text in which he blackmails the Orthodox Church (his OWN Church which from he is getting paid)to accept homosexuality otherwise the state should stop funding the Orthodox Church! As we say in Greek "If you have friends like than then you don't need any enemies".

An in order to understand to understand that these peopel are not only HERETICS but also RUTHLESS, a Finnish Lutheran pastoress, president of Yhteys organization recently performed a lesbian wedding in the Luthern Church WITHOUT PERMISSION from the Lutheran bishop and registered the wedding as legal. And because a) Civil gay weddings are allowed by the Finnish State b) Religious weddings are also officialy and automatically registered, now there is a problem with the bishop to invalidate the lesbian religious wedding which is already valid according to the Finnish state. We are talking about rebellion against her own bishop and contempt towards the Finnish Lutheran faithful who disagree. And this woman-pastoress is supposed to be the representative of God on earth. Good heavens!

And what is the position of the Orthodox to the above. The Orthodox priest of the diocese of Helsinki Heiiki Huttunen and General Secretary of the Finnish Ecumenist Counsil collaborates with her, they are both active members in the group Yhteys and they made up together the programme of the international Gay Christian Forum, with the blessing of the local Orthodox bishop who was/is going to participate as a lecturer in that conference.

I am afraid we really have to deal with the wolf's nest.

 

[Theoprovlitos]

Just visit the Finnish Orthodox Monastery of New Valamo and you will find a sauna right by the lake.  It is a part of their culture and nothing evil.

Jake is right. There is nothing wrong with sauna. It is their national bath since in the past 6 moths of the year there wasn't running water to wash oneself so I guess the climate was an important factor for the invention of sauna.

However I must admit that a... gay sauna does have a touch of 'spice' in it. I guess they will be admiring eachother's beauty.

 

[Papist]

Just visit the Finnish Orthodox Monastery of New Valamo and you will find a sauna right by the lake.  It is a part of their culture and nothing evil.

Jake is right. There is nothing wrong with sauna. It is their national bath since in the past 6 moths of the year there wasn't running water to wash oneself so I guess the climate was an important factor for the invention of sauna.

However I must admit that a... gay sauna does have a touch of 'spice' in it. I guess they will be admiring eachother's beauty.

ewwwwwww. Sounds pretty raunchy.

 

[Theoprovlitos]

These statements may provide some insight: the Lutheran Church in Finland recently had a group of its fundamentalists leave and register an alternative Lutheran Church.

Secondly, the Lutherans in Finland still have sour grapes over the fact that that Archbishop Ambrosius of the Finnish Orthodox Church left the Lutheran Church to convert to Orthodoxy.  He is a very personable man, a gifted linguist and and well educated with graduate degrees in both theology and political science.

I met him at the University of Toronto a number of years ago when he was the keynote speaker at a Conferece "Orthodoxy in Finland" organized by the Finnish Studies Department of the University of Toronto.  The conference attracted people interested in Finnish Studies plus a large group of people who were of the Orthodox faith and interested in Orthodoxy.  One of the university professors told me that the Lutherans in Finland were very upset about Archbishop Ambrosius converting to Orthodoxy and the romours had spread that he was homosexual and that the monastery "New Valamo" was filled with homosexuals.  I myself doubt that there is any truth to the rumours about the monastery or Archbishop Ambrosius whom I thought was a very sincere and spiritual man.

Jade

No question that Metropolitan Ambnrosius IS talented. Here's one more to his credit: He organized the second more succesful exhbition in the history of the Art Museum of Helsinki, on the treasures of Mt Athos. Thusands of Orthodox and non-orthodox ( I think even the Finnish president) have visited. He has very good taste and he is active. His name is well known in the Finnish society.

However this has NOTHING to do with his being a heretic or a Freemason. Besides most heretics must have been opinion leaders, talented and gifted otherwise they would have made their names known as founders of heresies. It is either out of PRIDE and self-appreciation that they ended up heretical because they had the delusion of "Changing things to the 'better'" or simply the evil one seeing that they are talented managed to gradually switvh their talents AGAINST the church and make them work for him while they were believing they were serving 'God'.

Another person like this is Fr Heikki Huttunen. Yiu just don't become the General Secretary of the Ecumenist Counsel of the Churches of Finland if you are not talented. Knowing him in person nd having cooperated with him BEFORE he took the path to perdition I can tell that he edned up introducing heresies due to his PRIDE to change the church adn the society. And unfortunatelly being a 'spiritual' father he has ruined a lot of people and among them a very good friend of mine.

PRIDE and lack of humbleness is their problem at first palce and the rest follow. That WE are going to show the res tof the world who we are.

About homosexuality his aim was to rach people who suffer from this and tell them that there is a place for them in Heaven too. His intentions are good. However if these intentions do not come along with CORRECT FAITH, ORTHODOX Dogmas and Orthodox pastoral care but they have been defiled by worldly humanistic ideas then instead of doing good to those people you are RUINING THEM becasue the Gospel says you'd rather be warm or cold, but becasue you are lukewarm I will vomit you.

About Valaam, do not confuse someone's sexual tendecies or practices with dogmas and role. Currently Valaam is the ONLY hope of the Church of Finland also thanks to its abbot Fr Sergei. Also the assistant bishop Fr Arseni who comes from Valam so far has not got involved his name with all that trush. Also Fr Isidoros the Estonian has lived for years in MT Athos even alone in the wilderness.

BUT yes, there have been several cases with homosexuals in Valaam. Recently a novice lef the monastery in love with a (was he canadian or Dutch) guest, another monk who left Valaam to found his oun skete and spiritual centre was arrested and convicted as a sexual offender of young men.

You see I keep repeating over nd over that the problem is NOT homosexuality but the HERESY. Someone might be homosexual, somebody else an adulterer, someonew hot tempered, gluttonous, a thief etc. I mean NOBODY is perfect and infalable. But their non-Orthodox worldview and Luthern mindset does not let them make a distinction between a sinful or suffering person with the sin ITSELF. In the protestant worldview either you are good and saved or bad and you perish. Either a saint or a monster. And this is why according to that mentality a homosexual in order to be christian he HAS to be good, and so they justify homosexuality so that homosexuals may have some palce in the kingdom of God.

Metropolitan Ambrosius sincere, yes. Spiritual, forget about it. Or at least he is as spiritual as Arius. No question Arius was spiritual but this didn't preventing him to become the founder of some if the worse heresies in the history of Christianity


MODERATION:  Title added to each mention of Metropolitan Ambrosius's name in order to maintain proper respect for the episcopal office of the Orthodox Church  -PtA