Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread

Homosexuality comes up frequenbtly on Orthodox forums because..

  • Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet.

    Votes: 20 27.8%
  • Since drunkeness, adultery, theft and dishonesty have been eradicated it's the only sin left to figh

    Votes: 10 13.9%
  • Apparently most Orthodox Christians have lots of gay family, friends and associates

    Votes: 7 9.7%
  • Orthodox forums attract a lot of self torturing closet cases and men with doubts about thier own mas

    Votes: 20 27.8%
  • Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet.

    Votes: 15 20.8%

  • Total voters
    72
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Theoprovlitos

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Orest said:
I see from the archives that this topic has been discussed last year in 2008 with Theoprovlitos starting the thread with unfounded accusations.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18525.0.html

From last year's post, I think this article mentioned by someone from Finland is important.  The writer states that the head of the Finnish Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Leo maintains the traditional orthodox stance:
http://www.hs.fi/tulosta/1135241059236
Archbishop Leo Denies Gay Priests can Live together.
Arkkipiispa Leo: "Ortodoksipappi ei voi elää rekisteröidyssä parisuhteessa"

That interview practically says that an orthodox priest cannot live in a homosexual relationship. Furthermore, His Grace ( is this the correct title? ) has said earlier that the homosexual relationships are not part of the Orthodox Tradition. It seems that the heretical gay mafia has had quite a little success in it's manipulation.  
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18525.0.html
I am affraid that the text of your link does not contain the FULL text of the Archbishops statement which after publicity and complaints has been "shortened" the original text goes liek this

The registration of parishioners as same-sex couples does not constitute a problem, according to Archbishop Leo.
[Note: In Finland, in order to officially belong to any church whatsoever, you need to register.]

"To anyone who wishes to participate in parishional and liturgical life, no questions are asked about their family status.

According to Leo, socio-ethical issues are to a large degree a matter of culture.

"Especially in Eastern Europe, the Church leaderships are obliged to maintain a balance, on account of the demands of noisy extremist fundamentalist organizations. Among these circles, liberalism is not fashionable.”

(this is obviously an insult towards other churches and nations since among those noisy, extremist, fundamentalists happen to be the Heads of several Orthodox Churches, to begin with the Patriarch of Mosow)

According to Leo, the Orthodox Church is very careful when handling matters pertaining to homosexuality."

Those who are registered as a couple with a person of the same sex cannot be accepted in the ranks of priesthood. But for associates and workers from the laity, we do not place the same criteria."

Which practically means acceptance and moral justification of homosexual marriages and full participation gay marreid couples in Church liturgical life without any problem and even as workers of the Church. In other words a woman may work in the morning as the bishop's secretary and at night as a whore without a problem!


And yet 6 months later here is the program of the Ecumenist Gay Conference Organized by the Ecumensit Gay group Yhteys with the particiaption of several priests and the Bishop of Helsinki Ambrosius

"Can male priest love and live with a man? Discussion with an introduction by an orthodox priest working in southern Finland." I bet their answer is YES. And do I know that priest!

And here some more from the very same conference where the Orthodox FULLY particiapate with the blessings of the local Bishop who was/is going to particiapte in the conference.

Transition in a church context: theology, community and roles of sex and gender in Christian life. Non-trans people welcome too!
Eeva Järvinen is a Lutheran pastor, a trans feminist theologian who delights in God and in the world He has created. Her particular favourite theological subjects are God's limitless love for people, His infinite patience with humans (which she does not share, unfortunately), sanctification of God's children and our role as God's warm hands here in the world. She earns her living as an IT and communications specialist, as her bishop is not too keen on trans women and even less on lesbian priests who marry other lesbians. Computers and other people don't seem to mind, and she's hoping the bishops will come to their senses finally, too.

What worries me is this

Future Strategy

As you can see A LOT can happen within 6 months since last November, and obviously to the worse.
 

Alveus Lacuna

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Theoprovlitos said:
I don't know anymore what to think. This is so sad...
Are you under Bishop Longin? May I ask what is/was your religious background?
I was being sarcastic.  OC.net loves true Orthodoxy! 

I am under His Grace +LONGIN.  He is very traditional.  He insists on the baptism of all converts, no mere chrism.  This has been very hard for me to accept as I was baptized as an infant into the Roman Catholic Church, then again as a teenager into the Southern Baptist Church, so this will be my 'third' baptism, whenever it actually happens.  This is very hard to stomach, as it seems to violate the Creed: "I believe in ONE baptism for the remission of sins."  Anyway, it has been a good lesson in obedience and humility for me; getting me out of the Protestant paradigm of my decision and more attuned to the reality of the authority of the bishop as a representative of Christ.
 

Orest

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Theoprovlitos said:
Orest said:
I see from the archives that this topic has been discussed last year in 2008 with Theoprovlitos starting the thread with unfounded accusations.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18525.0.html

From last year's post, I think this article mentioned by someone from Finland is important.  The writer states that the head of the Finnish Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Leo maintains the traditional orthodox stance:
http://www.hs.fi/tulosta/1135241059236
Archbishop Leo Denies Gay Priests can Live together.
Arkkipiispa Leo: "Ortodoksipappi ei voi elää rekisteröidyssä parisuhteessa"

That interview practically says that an orthodox priest cannot live in a homosexual relationship. Furthermore, His Grace ( is this the correct title? ) has said earlier that the homosexual relationships are not part of the Orthodox Tradition. It seems that the heretical gay mafia has had quite a little success in it's manipulation.  
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18525.0.html
I am affraid that the text of your link does not contain the FULL text of the Archbishops statement which after publicity and complaints has been "shortened" the original text goes liek this
You are not being fair.  I was quoting this article here:
http://www.hs.fi/tulosta/1135241059236
Metropolitan Leo states says that an Orthodox priest cannot live in a homosexual relationship and that the homosexual relationships are not part of the Orthodox Tradition.

This is a direct quote from the Metropolitan that affirms Orthodox teaching on homosexuality.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Orest said:
I see from the archives that this topic has been discussed last year in 2008 with Theoprovlitos starting the thread with unfounded accusations.
For purpose of fairness, seeing that you essentially accused Theoprovlitos of opening a second account in violation of forum policy--I trust wholeheartedly that you didn't mean to ;)--that thread appears to have been started by someone totally unrelated to Theoprovlitos who merely cited Theoprovlitos's blog in the OP.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Theoprovlitos said:
Orest said:
I see from the archives that this topic has been discussed last year in 2008 with Theoprovlitos starting the thread with unfounded accusations.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18525.0.html

From last year's post, I think this article mentioned by someone from Finland is important.  The writer states that the head of the Finnish Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Leo maintains the traditional orthodox stance:
http://www.hs.fi/tulosta/1135241059236
Archbishop Leo Denies Gay Priests can Live together.
Arkkipiispa Leo: "Ortodoksipappi ei voi elää rekisteröidyssä parisuhteessa"

That interview practically says that an orthodox priest cannot live in a homosexual relationship. Furthermore, His Grace ( is this the correct title? ) has said earlier that the homosexual relationships are not part of the Orthodox Tradition. It seems that the heretical gay mafia has had quite a little success in it's manipulation.  
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18525.0.html
I am affraid that the text of your link does not contain the FULL text of the Archbishops statement which after publicity and complaints has been "shortened" the original text goes liek this

The registration of parishioners as same-sex couples does not constitute a problem, according to Archbishop Leo.
[Note: In Finland, in order to officially belong to any church whatsoever, you need to register.]

"To anyone who wishes to participate in parishional and liturgical life, no questions are asked about their family status.

According to Leo, socio-ethical issues are to a large degree a matter of culture.

"Especially in Eastern Europe, the Church leaderships are obliged to maintain a balance, on account of the demands of noisy extremist fundamentalist organizations. Among these circles, liberalism is not fashionable.”

(this is obviously an insult towards other churches and nations since among those noisy, extremist, fundamentalists happen to be the Heads of several Orthodox Churches, to begin with the Patriarch of Mosow)

According to Leo, the Orthodox Church is very careful when handling matters pertaining to homosexuality."

Those who are registered as a couple with a person of the same sex cannot be accepted in the ranks of priesthood. But for associates and workers from the laity, we do not place the same criteria."

Which practically means acceptance and moral justification of homosexual marriages and full participation gay marreid couples in Church liturgical life without any problem and even as workers of the Church. In other words a woman may work in the morning as the bishop's secretary and at night as a whore without a problem!


And yet 6 months later here is the program of the Ecumenist Gay Conference Organized by the Ecumensit Gay group Yhteys with the particiaption of several priests and the Bishop of Helsinki Ambrosius

"Can male priest love and live with a man? Discussion with an introduction by an orthodox priest working in southern Finland." I bet their answer is YES. And do I know that priest!

And here some more from the very same conference where the Orthodox FULLY particiapate with the blessings of the local Bishop who was/is going to particiapte in the conference.

Transition in a church context: theology, community and roles of sex and gender in Christian life. Non-trans people welcome too!
Eeva Järvinen is a Lutheran pastor, a trans feminist theologian who delights in God and in the world He has created. Her particular favourite theological subjects are God's limitless love for people, His infinite patience with humans (which she does not share, unfortunately), sanctification of God's children and our role as God's warm hands here in the world. She earns her living as an IT and communications specialist, as her bishop is not too keen on trans women and even less on lesbian priests who marry other lesbians. Computers and other people don't seem to mind, and she's hoping the bishops will come to their senses finally, too.

What worries me is this

Future Strategy

As you can see A LOT can happen within 6 months since last November, and obviously to the worse.
Can you give us a link to the online copy of this statement?
 

Alpo

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Alveus Lacuna said:
He insists on the baptism of all converts, no mere chrism.  This has been very hard for me to accept as I was baptized as an infant into the Roman Catholic Church, then again as a teenager into the Southern Baptist Church, so this will be my 'third' baptism, whenever it actually happens.  This is very hard to stomach, as it seems to violate the Creed: "I believe in ONE baptism for the remission of sins."  Anyway, it has been a good lesson in obedience and humility for me; getting me out of the Protestant paradigm of my decision and more attuned to the reality of the authority of the bishop as a representative of Christ.
Now this is interesting. I've had a same kind of lesson about obedience but because of totally opposite reason: I'd like to be baptised! But it's customary not to baptise converts in Finland if they are already baptised in some other Christian denomination and I was baptised as an nfant into the Lutheran Church.
 

Theoprovlitos

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Alpo said:
Alveus Lacuna said:
He insists on the baptism of all converts, no mere chrism.  This has been very hard for me to accept as I was baptized as an infant into the Roman Catholic Church, then again as a teenager into the Southern Baptist Church, so this will be my 'third' baptism, whenever it actually happens.  This is very hard to stomach, as it seems to violate the Creed: "I believe in ONE baptism for the remission of sins."  Anyway, it has been a good lesson in obedience and humility for me; getting me out of the Protestant paradigm of my decision and more attuned to the reality of the authority of the bishop as a representative of Christ.
Now this is interesting. I've had a same kind of lesson about obedience but because of totally opposite reason: I'd like to be baptised! But it's customary not to baptise converts in Finland if they are already baptised in some other Christian denomination and I was baptised as an nfant into the Lutheran Church.
Three baptisms It is strange indeed. My wife was about to be chrismated only, but the Greek bishop suggested that she would be baptized which she finaly did especially when we remembered that her ex godmother belonged to a cult croup and she wan't a practicing chirstian anymore.

I know that in Finland converts are not allowed to be baptised and this is why many go to other countries or Mt Athos. The truth is however that the creed used at the first baptims also includes the fallacy of Filioque and it gives a good reason to be baptized again, though I am not claiming that those who were not baptised again are not Orthodox.

I would suggest Alpo if he really wants to have that experience to visit a Monastery in Mt Athos, Greece or any other country to do so.
 

Orest

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PeterTheAleut said:
Orest said:
I see from the archives that this topic has been discussed last year in 2008 with Theoprovlitos starting the thread with unfounded accusations.
For purpose of fairness, seeing that you essentially accused Theoprovlitos of opening a second account in violation of forum policy--I trust wholeheartedly that you didn't mean to ;)--that thread appears to have been started by someone totally unrelated to Theoprovlitos who merely cited Theoprovlitos's blog in the OP.
You are quite right.  I made a mistake in thinking that Theoprovlitos started the thread.
I am sorry for my error.
 

Orest

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CRCulver said:
soufliotiki, airing these problems publicly can get hierarchs of other Orthodox bodies like the Russian Orthodox Church to voice their dismay, which has often been a powerful tool in suppressing modernist innovations. Individual national churches might go in all sorts of weird directions were they not kept in check by their Orthodox brethren elsewhere.
I think it has been suggested that all this bad publicity for the Finnish Orthodox Church may be a cover for the Moscow Patriarchate to take over or move into Finland with its own churches.  The Finnish Orthodox Church is currently under Constantinople.
This article was in today's Helsinki newspaper:

Moscow-affiliated Russian Orthodox church grows in Helsinki


Two Orthodox Christian congregations in Helsinki affiliated with the Russian ecclesiastical tradition have grown in the Helsinki region in recent years.

      The congregations of St. Nicholas and Pokrova, which fall under the Moscow Patriarchate, have about 2,000 members. The membership has been growing at a rate of about 150 a year.

      About 75 per cent of the members registered in the congregations are citizens of Finland.

      The Finnish Orthodox Church disengaged from the Russian Orthodox Church in 1923. However, some of the Orthodox in Finland wanted to retain Russian ways, and the use of Church Slavonic in the liturgy, and they set up their own congregation.

     When the Finish Orthodox Church decided in 1927 to reject the old Julian calendar, the Russian Orthodox in Finland set up their own congregation - that of St. Nicholas.

      After the Second World War Stalin began to use the Russian Orthodox Church as a way of advancing his foreign policy goals. There were calls from Moscow for the Finnish Orthodox Church to join the Moscow Patriarchate.

      Support for the idea from the Finnish far left made many church members wary of the proposal, and it was rejected. In 1957 the Holy Synod of Moscow recognised the status of the Finnish Orthodox Church.
     
Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, immigration from Russia to Finland has increased, swelling the membership of the Moscow-affiliated congregations in Finland.

      The congregations remain small compared with the whole Finnish Orthodox Church, which shares a special status in Finnish society with the Evangelical-Lutheran Church. The Helsinki Orthodox Congregation has about 19,000 members.
     
The St. Nicholas Congregation wants to build a new Orthodox Church in Itäkeskus, in the east of Helsinki next to the Stoa culture centre. However, it has not yet been granted a building permit.
      "I believe that our congregation will continue to grow. When the church in Itäkeskus is ready, we can increase youth activities and church services", says Orest Chervinski, dean of the Congregation of St. Nicholas.

      The congregation is celebrating its 80th anniversary on Friday, with Metropolitan Cyril of the foreign section of the Moscow Patriarchate taking part in a service held on Friday morning at the Church of St. Nicholas at Helsinki's Hietaniemi Cemetery.

      Taking part in the event were Metropolitan Ambrosius and Archbishop Leo of the Helsinki Orthodox diocese.
     
In spite of the cooperation between the two branches of Orthodoxy in Finland, the growth of the congregations under the Moscow Patriarchate is a cause for some concern within the Finnish Orthodox Church.

      "It is common practice that one local church will deal with all tasks of the Orthodox Church", Metropolitan Ambrosius says.
      Congregations linked with the Moscow Patriarchate live according to the old Julian calendar, and they celebrate Christmas and Easter at different times than in other Finnish Orthodox congregations.

      Ambrosius says that people often join the congregations which observe Russian traditions specifically for cultural reasons.
      "There is a small group of nationalists who want their spiritual services directly from priests under the Moscow Patriarchate", he explains.

      Orthodox immigrants are very welcome in the Finnish Orthodox Church, Ambrosius says.
      "We have actively sought to reach out to Russian immigrants. All those who have come to our congregation have been accepted."


Previously in HS International Edition:
   Russian-style Orthodox church to be built in East of Helsinki (15.12.2006)
   Orthodox Church of Russia to expand its activities in Finland (22.8.2005)
16/5/2009
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Moscow-affiliated+Russian+Orthodox+church+grows+in+Helsinki/1135230488329
 

Irish Hermit

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(Mods, if this is out of place in this particular thread could you please move it.  I cannot make up my mind if it is sufficiently ontopic for this thread or not?)

This is from today's Helsinki Newspaper.  It states that Archbishop Leo and Metropolitan Ambrosius of the Finnish orthodox Church will be con-celebrating with a representative from the MP.


"Moscow-affiliated Russian Orthodox Church Grows in Helsinki"

Two Orthodox Christian congregations in Helsinki affiliated with the Russian ecclesiastical tradition have grown in the Helsinki region in recent years.

The congregations of St. Nicholas and Pokrova, which fall under the Moscow Patriarchate, have about 2,000 members. The membership has been growing at a rate of about 150 a year.

About 75 per cent of the members registered in the congregations are citizens of Finland.

The Finnish Orthodox Church disengaged from the Russian Orthodox Church in 1923. However, some of the Orthodox in Finland wanted to retain Russian ways, and the use of Church Slavonic in the liturgy, and they set up their own congregation.

When the Finish Orthodox Church decided in 1927 to reject the old Julian calendar, the Russian Orthodox in Finland set up their own congregation - that of St. Nicholas.

After the Second World War Stalin began to use the Russian Orthodox Church as a way of advancing his foreign policy goals. There were calls from Moscow for the Finnish Orthodox Church to join the Moscow Patriarchate.

Support for the idea from the Finnish far left made many church members wary of the proposal, and it was rejected. In 1957 the Holy Synod of Moscow recognised the status of the Finnish Orthodox Church.
     
Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, immigration from Russia to Finland has increased, swelling the membership of the Moscow-affiliated congregations in Finland.

The congregations remain small compared with the whole Finnish Orthodox Church, which shares a special status in Finnish society with the Evangelical-Lutheran Church. The Helsinki Orthodox Congregation has about 19,000 members.
     
The St. Nicholas Congregation wants to build a new Orthodox Church in Itäkeskus, in the east of Helsinki next to the Stoa culture centre. However, it has not yet been granted a building permit.

"I believe that our congregation will continue to grow. When the church in Itäkeskus is ready, we can increase youth activities and church services", says Orest Chervinski, dean of the Congregation of St. Nicholas.

The congregation is celebrating its 80th anniversary on Friday, with Metropolitan Cyril of the foreign section of the Moscow Patriarchate taking part in a service held on Friday morning at the Church of St. Nicholas at Helsinki's Hietaniemi Cemetery.

Taking part in the event were Metropolitan Ambrosius and Archbishop Leo of the Helsinki Orthodox diocese.
     
In spite of the cooperation between the two branches of Orthodoxy in Finland, the growth of the congregations under the Moscow Patriarchate is a cause for some concern within the Finnish Orthodox Church.

"It is common practice that one local church will deal with all tasks of the Orthodox Church", Metropolitan Ambrosius says.

Congregations linked with the Moscow Patriarchate live according to the old Julian calendar, and they celebrate Christmas and Easter at different times than in other Finnish Orthodox congregations.

Ambrosius says that people often join the congregations which observe Russian traditions specifically for cultural reasons.

"There is a small group of nationalists who want their spiritual services directly from priests under the Moscow Patriarchate", he explains.

Orthodox immigrants are very welcome in the Finnish Orthodox Church, Ambrosius says.

"We have actively sought to reach out to Russian immigrants. All those who have come to our congregation have been accepted."


Previously in HS International Edition:
Russian-style Orthodox church to be built in East of Helsinki (15.12.2006)
Orthodox Church of Russia to expand its activities in Finland (22.8.2005)
16/5/2009
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Moscow-affiliated+Russian+Orthodox+church+grows+in+Helsinki/1135230488329


 

mike

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If the homosexual couple vowed to live in perfect celibacy I do not see any problems against giving them a blessing.
 

welkodox

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Individual national churches might go in all sorts of weird directions were they not kept in check by their Orthodox brethren elsewhere.
Try telling that to people in North America.  What the Russians are doing in Finland also has parallels to here.
 

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Theoprovlitos,

Do not let anyone change your language on this issue; it by its very nature is wrong.  Homosexuality is a  result of the fall of Adam; it is something that is to be resisted, and refrained from.  The difference between it and heterosexuality is that the former is wrong in and of itself; whereas, the latter in and of itself is natural.  Thus "the marriage bed is honorable, and is blessed by God".  But, those who struggle with aberrant passions such as this are to be accepted, loved and cared for spiritually. 
 

PeterTheAleut

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Alveus Lacuna said:
He insists on the baptism of all converts, no mere chrism.  This has been very hard for me to accept as I was baptized as an infant into the Roman Catholic Church, then again as a teenager into the Southern Baptist Church, so this will be my 'third' baptism, whenever it actually happens.  This is very hard to stomach, as it seems to violate the Creed: "I believe in ONE baptism for the remission of sins."  Anyway, it has been a good lesson in obedience and humility for me; getting me out of the Protestant paradigm of my decision and more attuned to the reality of the authority of the bishop as a representative of Christ.
Three baptisms?  Technically, according to the Tradition of the Orthodox Church, there is only one baptism: that of the Orthodox Church.  Outside the Church, there is no baptism, so the previous two heterodox baptisms are not seen as baptisms at all.

However, I digress only to offer a corrective.  If anyone would like to discuss this point further, I can split off this post and merge it into one of the many earlier discussions we've had about the subject of "re"-baptism of converts.  Just let me know what you want to do. ;)
 

Theoprovlitos

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Orest said:
This article was in today's Helsinki newspaper:

Moscow-affiliated Russian Orthodox church grows in Helsinki

     
In spite of the cooperation between the two branches of Orthodoxy in Finland, the growth of the congregations under the Moscow Patriarchate is a cause for some concern within the Finnish Orthodox Church.

      "It is common practice that one local church will deal with all tasks of the Orthodox Church", Metropolitan Ambrosius says.
      Congregations linked with the Moscow Patriarchate live according to the old Julian calendar, and they celebrate Christmas and Easter at different times than in other Finnish Orthodox congregations.

      Ambrosius says that people often join the congregations which observe Russian traditions specifically for cultural reasons.
      "There is a small group of nationalists who want their spiritual services directly from priests under the Moscow Patriarchate", he explains.

    Previously in HS International Edition:
   Russian-style Orthodox church to be built in East of Helsinki (15.12.2006)
   Orthodox Church of Russia to expand its activities in Finland (22.8.2005)
16/5/2009
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Moscow-affiliated+Russian+Orthodox+church+grows+in+Helsinki/1135230488329

Thank you Orest

This is exactly the problem but still the truth is revealed between the line as well as twisted.

For example Metropolitan Ambrosius says "they celebrate Easter at different times than in other Finnish Orthodox congregations" while the truth should be that "The Finnish Orthodox CHurch celebrates Easter at different times with ALL other Orthodox Churches in the world"  and this of course IS a problem becasue it braks church order and canons plus it makes Finns be in communion with the Protestants (who hardly celebrate Easter) rather with their Orthodox brethren all over the world. No wander they even have a priest rejecting the Holy Light even on Good Saturday 2008 just after the service claiming that "the Bible doesn't say anything about any "Holy Light"".

Then no wander "the growth of the congregations under the Moscow Patriarchate is a cause for some concern within the Finnish Orthodox Church". All the Finns who have spiritual connections with Mt Athos, Greece, Russia etc are suggested to attend services to the Russian Church and many who haven't still done so are waiting for the right moment practicing patience. If things go on like this the result will be soon that all Orthodox Immigrants or Orthodox of ethnic backgound will move to the Russian CHurch and those who will remain in the Finnish CHurch will be some rotten theologians, people with low morals, converts who THINK they know what Orthodoxy is and gays, Lesbians etc. This is NOT an Orthodox CHurch any more but a protestant one with different cultural elements. Their theology and dogmas however are from top to toes protestant. Cathechism is NOT enough to converts from other Christian dogmas with the exception of Roman Catholics with whom differences are only dogmatic. It is easier to a muslim to adopt the Orthodox way of thinking (once he accepted Christ) than to a protestant, as it is difficult to a non-native english speaker to speak english fluently unless he lives the rest of his life in an english-speaking country.

And in Finland the cse is that they are trying to speak Greek or Russian (I am using a metaphor) while they are residing in Finland where everyoine else is FInnish. And now they even have the pride to believe that they are going to teach US in Greece Greek or Russian becasue we don't know it well!

The biggest problem with Finns and converts in general is that they cannot see the UNVISIBLE side of Orthodoxy. For example the Roman catholics have a sweet love to the Mother of God, Virgin Mary. They have Padre Pio. They believe in miracles. There is a spiritual link a constant vibration of the heart with Christ and His saints that cannot be tought by books. This is why they have approcahed Orthodoxy INTELLECTUALLY and CULTURALLY while their hearts remain dry and unable to catch delicate issues. In their mind Orthodoxy, protestantism and humanistic atheism are one mass and one mess.

You can see it here in Metropolitan AMbrosius's words: "There is a small group of nationalists who want their spiritual services directly from priests under the Moscow Patriarchate". He CANNOT even see (or he pretends he doesn't see that there are hundreds of other serious reasons than the one's descrived here). "Ambrosius says that people often join the congregations which observe Russian traditions specifically for cultural reasons". It is obvious that the Metropolitan speaks according to HIS perception of Orthodoxy: "observe RUSSIAN traditions specifically for CULTURAL reasons". So all this we are talking about is a RUSSIAN (or Greek) thing and it has to do with CULTURE and not dogmas, ethics and holy tradition. And once Orthodoxy has been described as an ethinc and cultural thing then this gives them the right to CREATE a Frankenstein monster faith with organs from the corpes of various dead ideas and create what they call "Finnish orthodoxy" which is anyhting else but Orthodoxy and it is different than the Orthodoxy people in all other Orthodox countries share for centuries despite their ethnic and linguistic backgrounds.



 

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mike said:
If the homosexual couple vowed to live in perfect celibacy I do not see any problems against giving them a blessing.
Mike

Quite close but not yet. I am gald that you got this slight but IMPORTANT difference between homosexual couples who live together in celibacy and those who "get married" even in civil weddings.

In the fisrt case their sex life is just a fall while in the second one is the justification of a sin both morally and ecclesiaticaly. The homosexual person who gets married despite the teaching of the church in reality he is practically REJECTING the church in favor of his sex life. It is as for example an Orthodox Christian living in a Muslim country were bigamy is allowed, have a mistress committing adultery with her, but becasue the state allows bigamy he would go and get married with his mistress and become bigamus according to a civil marriage and have the perception that he is an Orthodox Christian while in reality he is nothing more than an ADULTERER.

So you can't be married with a person of the same sex and claim that you are a faithful christian.

Things are easier with unmarried homosexuals who have most probably no other choice than to live in sin. It must be made clear to them that they cannot equaly particiapte to the sacraments since they are practicing fornication. It is the same with non married heterosexual couples who live together. And if a priest shouldn't bless a couple living in an open marriage or a couple of adulterers, why should homosexuals be an exception?
 

Theoprovlitos

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PeterTheAleut said:
Three baptisms?  Technically, according to the Tradition of the Orthodox Church, there is only one baptism: that of the Orthodox Church.  Outside the Church, there is no baptism, so the previous two heterodox baptisms are not seen as baptisms at all.

However, I digress only to offer a corrective.  If anyone would like to discuss this point further, I can split off this post and merge it into one of the many earlier discussions we've had about the subject of "re"-baptism of converts.  Just let me know what you want to do. ;)
That would be an interesting issue though there will not be a clear answer but it will only reproduce the already existing confusion not only among different jurisdictions but even among priests of the very same church in the same country.

To get an idea, it is not clear to many priests if a child at risk that was baptized by aerobaptism should go through a full batism later if it survives the danger or it should only be chrismated
 

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Hello.I'm cristiano from spain.
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Robert W

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Christ is risen!

Sorry to drag this sorry thread to the top again.

I don't have the energy to engage in a prolonged discussion about this subject but I feel that I have to say a few words.

There is a conflict within the Finnish Orthodox Church. The well meaning Theoprovlitos have correctly named Heikki Huttunen (Orthodox priest, chairman of the Finnish ecumenical council and active homosexual rights supporter) and his gang, that includes a handful of Orthodox priests, as the agitators.

Among the opponents of Heikki Huttunen & co are some leading people of the Orthodox lay academy located at the new Valaam monastery, Pyhän Kosmas Aitolialaisen Veljestö (Brotherhood of Cosmas of Aetolia) and numerous priests. These have been sending letters to the Archbishop Leo asking him to take action. If the Archbishop fails to take action these people and organisations have been threatening to turn to Moscow for help (i.e. setting up a parallel Church in Finland that would be under the Patriarch of Moscow).

I do not think that the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Patriarch of Moscow are blind and dumb. They know what is going on. I get the feeling they are just waiting for the Finnish Church to "sit straight" (pun actually intended, sorry 8) ), they do not want to interfere prematurely. If Heikki Huttunen and friends would actually manage to "take over" the Finnish Orthodox Church (quite unlikely) I have no doubt that both Moscow and Constantinople would come swinging their patriarchal staffs.
 

Fr. George

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Robert W said:
If Heikki Huttunen and friends would actually manage to "take over" the Finnish Orthodox Church (quite unlikely) I have no doubt that both Moscow and Constantinople would come swinging their patriarchal staffs.
Indeed.
 
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