Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread

Homosexuality comes up frequenbtly on Orthodox forums because..

  • Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet.

    Votes: 20 27.8%
  • Since drunkeness, adultery, theft and dishonesty have been eradicated it's the only sin left to figh

    Votes: 10 13.9%
  • Apparently most Orthodox Christians have lots of gay family, friends and associates

    Votes: 7 9.7%
  • Orthodox forums attract a lot of self torturing closet cases and men with doubts about thier own mas

    Votes: 20 27.8%
  • Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet.

    Votes: 15 20.8%

  • Total voters
    72
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Theoprovlitos

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Robert W said:
Christ is risen!

Sorry to drag this sorry thread to the top again.

I don't have the energy to engage in a prolonged discussion about this subject but I feel that I have to say a few words.

There is a conflict within the Finnish Orthodox Church. The well meaning Theoprovlitos have correctly named Heikki Huttunen (Orthodox priest, chairman of the Finnish ecumenical council and active homosexual rights supporter) and his gang, that includes a handful of Orthodox priests, as the agitators.

Among the opponents of Heikki Huttunen & co are some leading people of the Orthodox lay academy located at the new Valaam monastery, Pyhän Kosmas Aitolialaisen Veljestö (Brotherhood of Cosmas of Aetolia) and numerous priests. These have been sending letters to the Archbishop Leo asking him to take action. If the Archbishop fails to take action these people and organisations have been threatening to turn to Moscow for help (i.e. setting up a parallel Church in Finland that would be under the Patriarch of Moscow).

I do not think that the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Patriarch of Moscow are blind and dumb. They know what is going on. I get the feeling they are just waiting for the Finnish Church to "sit straight" (pun actually intended, sorry 8) ), they do not want to interfere prematurely. If Heikki Huttunen and friends would actually manage to "take over" the Finnish Orthodox Church (quite unlikely) I have no doubt that both Moscow and Constantinople would come swinging their patriarchal staffs.
You would be surprised to know that there are more people than the ones mentioned who are against the actual status of the Finnish Church but they are no so foolish to openly protest against the situation. There is another team that translates every article into Russian and send it to the Moscow Patriarchate.

I personaly have cooperated with the Finnish Church, Heikki Huttunen himself, Bishop Arseni, Abbot Sergei, previous Archbishop John, Archbishop's secretary, Lintulan Monastery etc. I have friends in various posts of the Finnish Church. And I personally know the people of St Kosmas Aetolialainen who do an important work by transalting Greek Orthodox books into Finnish.

Many of the people visited Greece or stayed with us in the past. Some were "innovators" and some were openly gay. And this wasn't an issue. It BECAME an issue since Fr Heikki Huttunen as an ultra ecumenist (actually a PROFESSIONAL ONE) is getting payed to bring the "churches" together. And the only thing that is an obstacle (I supose that to him all other dogmatic differences have been resolved) is the ordination of women and acceptance of homosexuality in the Church. And he is working HARD on that.

I insist that he is unable even to see the HUGE difference between accepting a homosexual person and accepting homosexuality itself which is the same as accepting an adulterer in the church and adultery itself. And Fr Heikki goes even further by suggestin acceptance of homosexual marriage and even blessing them as if they were man and wife. This is a combination of immorality and heresy that church history has NEVER dealed before with.

As amatter of fact the true Archbishop of Finladn is Fr Heikki who has managed to infuence other priests and promote his people to important positions in the Orthodox Church. From the Archbishop's assistants to Ortaid, the Uspensky cathedral, the publications department, etc. Archbishop Leo is practically being dragged by the facts.

The fact is that both Patriarchates know what is going on but in order to do this someone has to transalte them from Finnish all those disgraseful articles that have been published in Aamun Koitto mainly by Fr Heikki Hutunen's spiritual son, the worst of all being the hints that Christ was homosexual and had a special relationship with St John while Ss Sergius and Baccus were homosexuals. In reality they reproduce the vomit of an American guy called Boswell and have turn his blasphemies into the 5th Gospel. They suck Boswell's vomit and trow it against the face of the Orthodox people. And so two things happen:

Those who are mature in faith, or they have connections with other Orthodox countries OF COURSE they protest. They have been writing letters to Metropolitan Ambrosius bu tin vain. They have been calling to see him and Ambrosius was hiding. They never got any official reply from anyone in the Finnish Orthodox Church. Therefore it is the attitude of the Finnish Church that pushed them towards Moscow. They DIDN'T address themselves to Moscow right from the start.

Those who are immature and new converts in faith they are being educated that the immorality and the heresy introduced by Boswel is TRUE ORTHODOXY. And so new converts to Orthodoxy in Finland if they happen to become Orthodox bythat spesific group they are becoming in reality heretics just like their false-teachers.

It is a fact that Fr Heikki is DETERMINED to pass this cult in the Finnish Orthodox CHurch. And this is why not only they never reply to protests but they persecute those who protest, to begin with by calling them fanatics, and fundamentalists while I know very well that they aren't. What they might be is that they have that extra zeal of converts (they are converts too) to keep the letter of the law and live an ascetic and spiritual life.

This sometimes is the other side of converts: Either to zealous to keep the letter of the law while what's important is the spirit, or the opposite (like Fr Heikki Huttunen) when for "humanistic" reasons and for the sake of "New Age love" there are neither Letters nor Laws and EVERYTHING is allowed!

Both lines are outside the frame of Orthodoxy but at least the first one is dogmatically and morally correct and I personally prefer it to the immorality introduced as "freedom" and "evolution".

However something HAS to happen in the Orthodox Church of Finland befroe it is too late. May be it will. I just got this announcement from the EP in reply to my letter and presentation of documents and facts..


ΟΙΚΟΥΜΕΝΙΚΟΝ ΠΑΤΡΙΑΡΧΕΙΟΝ

ΑΓΙΑ ΚΑΙ ΙΕΡΑ ΣΥΝΟΔΟΣ

Συνῆλθεν, ὑπό τήν προεδρείαν τῆς Α. Θ. Παναγιότητος, ἡ Ἁγία καί Ἱερά Σύνοδος εἰς τάς τακτικάς συνεδρίας αὐτῆς τὴν Δευτέραν, 18ην, καὶ τὴν Τρίτην, 19ην  τ. μ.  Μαΐου, καὶ ἐξήτασε πάντα τὰ ἐν τῇ ἡμερησίᾳ διατάξει ἀναγεγραμμένα θέματα, ἐπὶ τῶν ὁποίων καὶ ἐλήφθησαν αἱ προσήκουσαι ἀποφάσεις.

Ἐκ τοῦ Γραφείου.
 

Robert W

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Theoprovlitos said:
You would be surprised to know that there are more people than the ones mentioned who are against the actual status of the Finnish Church but they are no so foolish to openly protest against the situation. There is another team that translates every article into Russian and send it to the Moscow Patriarchate.
I am most certainly not surprised, even though this is new information to me. I am well aware that there is a broad grass roots movement against what is going on.

I know Theoprovlitos that you write so passionately about this subject because you care, but I would like to ask you to tone it down a little bit. Accusations that Metropolitan Ambrosius is gay is not really helping the cause. Remember that to slander a bishop is to slander the apostolic office. It is unwise to publicly accuse a bishop based on hearsay.

I am eagerly waiting for Archbishop Leo to open his mouth and speak, he has been silent about this for too long! I do have confidence in him. He is by no means a stupid man and I hope that he soon will realize that the greater part of his flock expects him to do something about father Heikki.
 

Theoprovlitos

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Robert W said:
I am most certainly not surprised, even though this is new information to me. I am well aware that there is a broad grass roots movement against what is going on.

I know Theoprovlitos that you write so passionately about this subject because you care, but I would like to ask you to tone it down a little bit. Accusations that Metropolitan Ambrosius is gay is not really helping the cause. Remember that to slander a bishop is to slander the apostolic office. It is unwise to publicly accuse a bishop based on hearsay.

I am eagerly waiting for Archbishop Leo to open his mouth and speak, he has been silent about this for too long! I do have confidence in him. He is by no means a stupid man and I hope that he soon will realize that the greater part of his flock expects him to do something about father Heikki.
Amen! My aim isn't and never was to accuse a bishop or even a priest for being gay. Because this is something between himself and God and as you stated an office is not influenced by someone's sanctity. Besides I know or have heard stories about who is gay and who isn't. The problem is the acceptance of immorality in the church especailly gay marriages which are a blasphemy to the realtion of Christ as a bridegroom with His church s a bride. I think this goes beyond the limits of heresy.

I would be happy if I knew that Metropolitan Ambrosius was gay but doesn't tolerate or teaches such things than his being straight but accepts all that stuff in the Church.

My idea about Metropolitan Ambrosius is that he COULD be one of the best bishops in Orthodoxy thanks to his talents, But something went really wrong with him or maybe with the people who surround him.

I am not happy if people will be beheaded. It is a pitty for him for his efforts for the Orthodox Church. But what's the use being active as a MANAGER when spiritualy you let the wolves eat the lamps?

The very same appleis to Fr Heikki Huttunen. He COULD be an important perosn in the church while now he has become a danger because of his PRIDE to teach ALL others about what is right and wrong.



Hierarchical title added to each mention of a bishop's name to make post compliant with forum policy regarding the respect we are to give our hierarchs  -PtA
 

Theoprovlitos

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PS As to Archbishop Leo, truly he seems /seemed to be a serious person. However to the surprise of many, while in private discussions he admitted the existance of a strong "Gay mafia" within the Finnish Orthodox Church, he publically never denounced them or took measures against them while he even hired Mr Jyrki Harkonen, close friend (if not spiritual child) of Fr Heikki Huttunen. How do these all match the image of a serious hierarch? Or is the mafia blackmailing or manipulating even the Archbishop himself who doesn't want to start an open front with them? Even the worlds they put in his mouth are not written by him but given to him. I mean his church is falling apart. He HAD to do something else than keep silent.
 

PoorFoolNicholas

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Theoprovlitos said:
Or is the mafia blackmailing or manipulating even the Archbishop himself who doesn't want to start an open front with them?
Yeah, they probably threatened to stone him with rose petals. ::) I have to admit, that it does sound like there are some problems within the Orthodox Church of Finland. But your constant conspiracy theorizing does NOT help one bit in your arguments.
 

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Theoprovlitos,

I think that your words speak more of a desire to call attention to a very disturbing situation in the Orthodox Church (I speak this way because there is only One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church).  When one of its members suffer, we all suffer. 

As for conspiracies, how do we think mainstream American denomination were taken over?  With open air meetings to begin with?  Besides, Theoprovlitos is not speaking of some "underground" shadow government- he speaks of what is happening openly at this more later stage of degradation in the life of the Church of Finland.

However it should hearten all of us that we are hearing of reports that the Hierarchs are aware of this situation, and will tend to the flock.  We all need tending at times.
 

Theoprovlitos

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PoorFoolNicholas said:
Theoprovlitos said:
Or is the mafia blackmailing or manipulating even the Archbishop himself who doesn't want to start an open front with them?
Yeah, they probably threatened to stone him with rose petals. ::) I have to admit, that it does sound like there are some problems within the Orthodox Church of Finland. But your constant conspiracy theorizing does NOT help one bit in your arguments.
iN this case you are never going to get sufficient "evidences" for what do I mean by threaten or manipulate because I will have to refer to details which cannot be announced here both because they will ruin the image of the Finnish Orthodox Church even more and becasue I don't want to reveal my sources which exist quietly without daring to openly tell their views.
 

PoorFoolNicholas

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Theoprovlitos said:
iN this case you are never going to get sufficient "evidences" for what do I mean by threaten or manipulate because I will have to refer to details which cannot be announced here both because they will ruin the image of the Finnish Orthodox Church even more and becasue I don't want to reveal my sources which exist quietly without daring to openly tell their views.
That is SOOOOOOO convenient. Man just when it seemed like you would have to prove something you have said, and then, WHAM, another conspiracy. You live a very exciting life indeed. Ruin the image of the Finnish Church? You haven't held back before, so what is stopping you now? Lack of evidence to support a pet theory is my guess. ::)
 

Theoprovlitos

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PoorFoolNicholas said:
Theoprovlitos said:
iN this case you are never going to get sufficient "evidences" for what do I mean by threaten or manipulate because I will have to refer to details which cannot be announced here both because they will ruin the image of the Finnish Orthodox Church even more and becasue I don't want to reveal my sources which exist quietly without daring to openly tell their views.
That is SOOOOOOO convenient. Man just when it seemed like you would have to prove something you have said, and then, WHAM, another conspiracy. You live a very exciting life indeed. Ruin the image of the Finnish Church? You haven't held back before, so what is stopping you now? Lack of evidence to support a pet theory is my guess. ::)
I am afraid that you are the only one left to believe that all this is a conspiracy and soon noone is going to take you seriously. AND it is obviously a personal thing against me because whenever you get testimonies form other people you don't even DARE questioning their credibility.

You can keep dreaming in a fictionary world till one day you wake up and face harsh reality as it is.

Someone who lives in Greece and knows SO many people in the Finnish Chruch either he must be clairvoyant or a CIA agent I guess according to you. It is impossible to you that he knows SPECIFIC people of the environement of bishop Ambrosius or Archbishop Leo. That he happens to know who are the ones who write Leo's speaches on his behalf.

Ok here's one more link from the magazine "Road to Emmaus" of which I happen to be a correspondent

http://www.roadtoemmaus.net/back_issue_articles/RTE_12/Living_Theology_in_Thessalonica.pdf

The latest issue on the Church of Finland is not online yet. Of course there you won't see scandals but the optimistic side of things, though A LOT have happened since the interview was taken.
 

PoorFoolNicholas

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No, you lose credibility, when you state something as FACT, then when asked to support your position, say that it is confidential/ damaging info. Support what you say, and then, maybe people will listen to you.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Theoprovlitos,

Are you aware of the logical fallacy of the bald-faced (a.k.a. bare) assertion?

  • X claims statement A.
  • X also claims that X is not lying.
  • Therefore, A is true.

IOW, the bare assertion fallacy can be summed up this way:  "It's true because I say it's true, and I don't lie."  The reason this doesn't work, though, is that we can't verify from your words alone that you're not lying.  Maybe you're telling us the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but how do we know?  You've not been here long enough to establish any credibility for yourself, and what inclination we may have had to offer you the benefit of the doubt you have summarily destroyed with outrageous claims that appear highly unlikely at face value, so we're not inclined to trust you just yet.  Thus it all comes down to nothing more than what you say here.  (Maybe what you're saying is totally true.  But how do we know?)  There's one way around this impasse:  show us official sources that prove that you're not lying.
 

Alveus Lacuna

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Theoprovlitos said:
You can keep dreaming in a fictionary world till one day you wake up and face harsh reality as it is.
You mean one day we'll wake up, see something actually worth getting upset about, substantially proven by a legitimate source, and then react accordingly? 

That sounds good to me.
 

Theoprovlitos

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PoorFoolNicholas said:
No, you lose credibility, when you state something as FACT, then when asked to support your position, say that it is confidential/ damaging info. Support what you say, and then, maybe people will listen to you.
No I am sorry, it is better for me to sound ureliale than turn in some people and cause them more trouble than they are already in. Whatever is published can be reproduced. The rest makes the picture more complete to those who already know.

For instance Archbishop Leo was saying different things before Mr Harkonen became his "Theological" Secretary. What do you wan to know? Who is writing him his speaches and who told me?

And if a teenager has suffered sexual harassment from a certain priest what do you want to know the name of the priest or the name of the child?
And last but not least if a child has suffered sexual harassment from a priest and he turns to the police then what should the police do? Instead of arresting the offender  arrest the child due to "lack of evidence" for spreading false rumours?

I am not targetting at the Archbishop Leo in anycase for any other reason than letting some rotten theologians destroy the Finnish Orthodox Church. It is evident from other news (with that priest who is a candidate in the elections) that in the Finnish Orthodox Church WHOEVER does WHATEVER he pleases. As if it were a HEADLESS corps while its head should be Christ.

 

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Alveus Lacuna said:
Theoprovlitos said:
You can keep dreaming in a fictionary world till one day you wake up and face harsh reality as it is.
You mean one day we'll wake up, see something actually worth getting upset about, substantially proven by a legitimate source, and then react accordingly? 

That sounds good to me.
I am not sure if you mean by that that you don't read enough Finnish newspapers or even links of official Finnish and Russian organizations or simply that the promotion of homosexuality and gay marriage within the Church and of openly gay priests doesn't upset you at all. I'd rather assume the second, because the sources presented here as well as testimonies from at least three more people besides myself, are more than enough. I mean is the OFFICIAL program of a gay activist ecumenist group against you. And I would rather believe what I see than what you don't even though it is more than evident.

Here some more for you

Finnish Monk arrested for sexual harassment of 6 men

From the official site of Finnish police

http://yle.fi/poliisitv/raportit.php?sivu=raportti_anon

and various sites from google

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=munkki+Kristoforos+Haapaj%C3%A4rvi&meta=

Now these "Orthodox" people are trying to prove that nothing is wrong with a priest or a monk openly express his homosexuality.

 

PeterTheAleut

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Theoprovlitos said:
Alveus Lacuna said:
Theoprovlitos said:
You can keep dreaming in a fictionary world till one day you wake up and face harsh reality as it is.
You mean one day we'll wake up, see something actually worth getting upset about, substantially proven by a legitimate source, and then react accordingly? 

That sounds good to me.
I am not sure if you mean by that that you don't read enough Finnish newspapers or even links of official Finnish and Russian organizations or simply that the promotion of homosexuality and gay marriage within the Church and of openly gay priests doesn't upset you at all. I'd rather assume the second,
So, you would rather assume the worst of an individual?

Theoprovlitos said:
because the sources presented here as well as testimonies from at least three more people besides myself, are more than enough.
As a general rule, that's for us on the jury to decide.  If we're not convinced of the truthfulness of the claims here presented, then it's more likely that what evidence you have provided is just not enough of the right kind to convince us.

Theoprovlitos said:
I mean is the OFFICIAL program of a gay activist ecumenist group against you. And I would rather believe what I see than what you don't even though it is more than evident.

Here some more for you

Finnish Monk arrested for sexual harassment of 6 men

From the official site of Finnish police

http://yle.fi/poliisitv/raportit.php?sivu=raportti_anon

and various sites from google

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=munkki+Kristoforos+Haapaj%C3%A4rvi&meta=
I don't doubt the sad truth of this criminal behavior on the part of a monk, but this may very well be an isolated occurrence that reveals nothing of any kind of a larger conspiracy of a gay activist ecumenist group.

Theoprovlitos said:
Now these "Orthodox" people are trying to prove that nothing is wrong with a priest or a monk openly express his homosexuality.
And that is an outrageous, though possibly true claim that you have yet to substantiate.
 

Theoprovlitos

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PeterTheAleut said:
And that is an outrageous, though possibly true claim that you have yet to substantiate.
You can simply check the program of the PRO GAY 'CHRISTIAN' ECUMENIST conference which Just started with the OPEN particiption of ORTHODOX PRIESTS,as PRIESTS and not as individuals and the blessing of the local BISHOP who was/is to particiapte as well. If you also watch carefully you will find out that there will also be Orthodox SERVICES adn as far as I know an Orthodox priest cannot organize even SERVICES eithout his bishop knowing and it is more than obvious that the priest who will serve it is particiapting there as a PRIEST and not as an individual.

I remind that with the case of another priest whose crime was to participate in the european elections the Finnish Church IMMEDIATELY responded and took measures against him while in the case of the gay activist "orthodox" not only they keep silent but they absolutely agree. Or the Official website of the Ecumenist Gay Organization where the preists of the Gay mafia OPENLY list their names and supporters

You have to start trusting your eyes and your logic, (just as everybody else).
 

PeterTheAleut

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Theoprovlitos said:
You have to start trusting your eyes and your logic, (just as everybody else).
Ya know, I've learned to trust only half of what I can see, and my reasoning has often led me astray.  That's why I ask a lot of questions and often display a "prove it to me" approach to discussions.

So back to the question of the day:  Why should I believe what you have to say?
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
So back to the question of the day:  Why should I believe what you have to say?
Simply because it is there on the internet everywhere, and not according to MY point of view but on the contrary on THEIRS. Their christian ethics have been so badly altered that they even PUBLISH what they do being even proud about it. In a serious church that is not falling apart you just don't have a priest who is OFFICIALLY representing the Orthodox Church in the Ecumenical Cousil have his name OPENLY listed in a Ecumenist Gay Organization and even give pro-gay lectures in ecumenist gay meetings or give interviews in Orthodox gay magazines about blessing homosexual weddings in the Church.
 

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You're doing a great job at proving your point Theoprovlitos.  ::)

Just as an aside, Do they call themselves the "Gay Mafia", or is this your title for them? If it is YOUR title you are, yet again, showing how UNobjective you are, and therefore, LESS believable.
 

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PoorFoolNicholas said:
You're doing a great job at proving your point Theoprovlitos.  ::)

Just as an aside, Do they call themselves the "Gay Mafia", or is this your title for them? If it is YOUR title you are, yet again, showing how UNobjective you are, and therefore, LESS believable.
No the term gay mafia is used by me. It has een used by the Archbishop Leo in private discussion with a theoligian who went to discuss with him on the issue but of course the only way you can proove that, is have the two people involved admit it.

Anyway they consist of a group because it is the very same people everywhere promoting each other to important positions in the Church promoting homosexuality and threatening those who protest.

As for example when the theologian Hannu Poyhonen, of the New Valaam Monastery Lay Academy gave a lecture about the true Orthodox views on homosexuality, the chairman of the Lay Academy who also happens to be First priest of Helsinki parish and member of the Ecumenist Gay Club went to Valamo in order to make Poyhonen shut up otherwise his job is at risk and "his people" would start a boycot against the New Valaam Lay Academy and the monastery itself. Abbot Sergei is of the Orthodox line and took Poyhonen's side unlike Archbishop Leo who was present and didn't open his mouth playing the "diplomat". His secretary also belongs to the Orthodox Gay Club.

The Gay Club, or mafia -name it as you wish but "Church"- tries to manipulate also Valaam Monastery. The sad thing is that they have managed to introduce discretely their gay propaganda also in the Finnish Orthodox Schoolbooks:

Here it is the part that introduces HOMOSEXUALITY AMONG SCHOOLCHILDREN:

"The Orthodox teaching on love and sexuality includes within it MANY DIFFERENT WAYS. ALL of them however lead to the service of love. Love is a deeper service and sexuality is just one small part of it."

Then "The main teacher of Christian sexual ethics HAS BEEN for long Apostle Paul."

From Finnish "Orthodox" schoolbook "Orthodox Ethics and Dogmatic/Ortodoksinen Etiikka ja Dogmatikka" page 57.

Of course this is not the ONLY fallacy that has been included simply because Finns believe that they are their OWN teachers and this book has never been checked by a committee of expert theolgians from Greece or Russia.

In another part which reflects their perception of a NEw Age Rainbow God is on the chapter on the existence of evil and suffering, where the author claims that "God's work only starts AFTER the catastrophy because the existance of evil is mystery also to Him" (page 66).  No wander when these people believe in a NEw Age Christ -who is never angry or a judge- that they would come to the conclusion that EVERYTHING around sex is allowed and the only-good Rainbow Christ not only tolerates imorality but He blesses it!
 
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