Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread

Homosexuality comes up frequenbtly on Orthodox forums because..

  • Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet.

    Votes: 20 27.8%
  • Since drunkeness, adultery, theft and dishonesty have been eradicated it's the only sin left to figh

    Votes: 10 13.9%
  • Apparently most Orthodox Christians have lots of gay family, friends and associates

    Votes: 7 9.7%
  • Orthodox forums attract a lot of self torturing closet cases and men with doubts about thier own mas

    Votes: 20 27.8%
  • Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet.

    Votes: 15 20.8%

  • Total voters
    72
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ambrosemzv

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Right. Matthew 1:24 states that Joseph "ouk eginosken aftin eos ou eteken yion . . .," ("did not know her [until] she had born a son"). Ginosko is used here as an equivalent to the Hebrew ydh, just as it is consistently used in place of ydh in the LXX translation of Genesis, in places where it clearly has to do with sexual intercourse (e.g., Gen 4:1, 17).

But, as Errach reminds us, the Greek, eos, denotes duration, but does not imply anything about subsequent events, unlike English "until." The sentence could as well be translated, "[Joseph] did not know her during the period leading up to her bearing a son." The emphasis, then, being on excluding any possibility of Joseph's being the genetic father, but implying nothing about whether sexual relations occurred after that period.
 

Pedro

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To "piggyback" on what ambrosemzv said:

Other uses of eos ("until") in the NT and Septuagint:

When King David dances in the street and his wife (whose name escapes me) berates him, she is cursed by God, and the Scripture says she "had no children eos the day of her death." Obviously she didn't have kids on her deathbed.

Christ said in St. Matt's gospel that He'd be with us eos the end of the age...will He not be with us after that?

St. Paul encourages *someone* he writes to (can you tell I'm too lazy to go look these up?) to continue in prayer and reading Scripture eos he comes to see him/them. He obviously wouldn't want them to stop after he came.

So Mary and Joseph didn't know each other eos Christ came...we can see this does NOT mean they did so afterwards.
 

erracht

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Or to explain further, someone sent me this:

...The Fathers have explained beyond any doubt that "until" in the Greek, as used in this passage, does NOT necessarily imply that Joseph knew her *after* the birth of Christ, as some wrongly suggest. The same word is used, for example, in the verse "Lo, I am with you always, even until the end of the age." Are we to understand this to say that Christ will be with us *until* the end of the age, but that He will leave us *after* the end of the age? Certainly not!

Eloquently put. The Theotokos' perpetual virginity has been essentially put down as dogma, has been explained by the Fathers and should, I suppose, be a non-negotiable for Orthodox belief.
 

Asteriktos

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I apologize for, and take back, everything I said on this thread. What an idiot I was! But you already knew that ;)
 

greekischristian

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Matthew777 said:
I think that, as Christians, we should be more concerned with social justice than what people do with their wee-wees.
You dont know how disturbing it is to hear a grown man refer to that particular part of anatomy as a, and I quote, 'wee-wee.'
 

Matthew777

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greekischristian said:
You dont know how disturbing it is to hear a grown man refer to that particular part of anatomy as a, and I quote, 'wee-wee.'
It's even more disturbing that moral extremists would forbid consenting adults from deciding for themselves what to do in their own bedrooms.

Peace.
 

Truth_or_Bust

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Greetings in Christ M777,
Do you not hold the Bible and the Father's teachings against homosexuality as sinful or am I misunderstanding your statement?  Please explain your comment in light of the above context for this slow to understand sinner.

God Bless,
T
 

MicahJohn

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Matthew777 said:
I think that, as Christians, we should be more concerned with social justice than what people do with their wee-wees.

Peace.
No, I'm afraid the Church is not to be concerned primarily with social justice at all.  That is one of the huge mistakes of our time, thinking that we can solve our own problems and become better by working on social justice issues.  The problem is not with society!  That is merely the symptom of the real problem which is deep within our souls.  Change must be at the core of our individual hearts, not in social matters.  It is a grave deception.  We cannot change the world unless we change ourselves first, and God is the prime mover toward that end.  Feeding the hungry, caring for the poor, being compassionate and all manner of other social issues and goals can only come after this.  It's what the Church calls "giving alms" and it is an outgrowth of spiritual maturity and struggle, something we do as we are already being changed by Grace.  It is not our primary goal.

Sorry, didn't mean to offend but that's a pet peeve of mine.
 

chrisb

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Matthew777 said:
It's even more disturbing that moral extremists would forbid consenting adults from deciding for themselves what to do in their own bedrooms.

Peace.
I can appreciate this point of view but unfortunately what one does in private has an effect on what one does in public. I believe this was the whole point Jesus was making when he articulated 'sin' as having it's source within our 'thoughts' and not merely the domain of our 'actions'.

Honestly I believe the Buddhists do a better job of articulating this but the model is quite clear in Christianity as well. There are actions which are simply harmful to society and society is more than a bunch of individuals. One could make the argument that honestly there are no individual actions at all. We are all interdependent with one another and our environment. Privacy is a lack of recognizing this interdependence over the desires of the individual but like I said Buddhism does a much better job making this case than Christianity.

Peace.
 

Serbian Patriot

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Matthew777 said:
I think that, as Christians, we should be more concerned with social justice than what people do with their wee-wees.

Peace.
Speak for yourself, dont have the arrogance to tell Christians what they should be concerned about. You know full well Christians have a moral code which is very concerned with what people do with their 'wee-wees'.  You seem to be an apologist for sinful behaviour based on your own innovative liberal philosophy.  Dont confuse this with Christian morality.
 

Serbian Patriot

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MicahJohn said:
No, I'm afraid the Church is not to be concerned primarily with social justice at all. That is one of the huge mistakes of our time, thinking that we can solve our own problems and become better by working on social justice issues. The problem is not with society! That is merely the symptom of the real problem which is deep within our souls. Change must be at the core of our individual hearts, not in social matters. It is a grave deception. We cannot change the world unless we change ourselves first, and God is the prime mover toward that end. Feeding the hungry, caring for the poor, being compassionate and all manner of other social issues and goals can only come after this. It's what the Church calls "giving alms" and it is an outgrowth of spiritual maturity and struggle, something we do as we are already being changed by Grace. It is not our primary goal.

Sorry, didn't mean to offend but that's a pet peeve of mine.
Spot on!
 

DerekMK

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You know full well Christians have a moral code which is very concerned with what people do with their 'wee-wees'.
Is Christianity concerned with what "people" do or what an individual does?  Or more precisely, isn't one's own chastity what matters opposed to keeping track of others?
 

Matthew777

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Truth_or_Bust said:
Greetings in Christ M777,
Do you not hold the Bible and the Father's teachings against homosexuality as sinful or am I misunderstanding your statement? Please explain your comment in light of the above context for this slow to understand sinner.

God Bless,
T
Homosexuality is no different from any other sin, it is something that must be confessed rather than falsely accepted within the Church. But in terms of the world at large, however, we must recognize that we do live in a secular society and that the Church nor the state has any power to enforce Biblical law.

Peace.
 

Matthew777

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MicahJohn said:
No, I'm afraid the Church is not to be concerned primarily with social justice at all.ÂÂ
Have you read the Beatitudes? I understand your point but I think we can do both at the same time, and that they both help the other.

Peace.
 

sdcheung

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Matthew777 said:
Have you read the Beatitudes?

Peace.
You mean this?


(The Beatitudes)
3rd Antiphon

In Thy kingdom remember us, O Lord, * when Thou comest in Thy kingdom.
Blessed are the poor in spirit, * for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
          [In 12 verses]
Blessed are they that mourn, * for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, * for they shall inherit the earth.
          [In 10 verses]
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness, * for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful, * for they shall obtain mercy.
          [In 8 verses]
Blessed are the pure in heart, * for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, * for they shall be called the sons of God.
          [In 6 verses]
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake, * for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, * and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad, * for great is your reward in the heavens.
Glory to the Father, * and to the Son, * and to the Holy Spirit.
Both now and ever, * and unto the ages of ages.  Amen.
 

Sloga

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Νεκτάριος said:
Is Christianity concerned with what "people" do or what an individual does? Or more precisely, isn't one's own chastity what matters opposed to keeping track of others?
I used to say "Hey, if their not bothering me directly, I dont care." But Lord, they are trying to FORCE homosexuality on people these days. Just a week ago or so, I was sitting waiting for the rain to come, and across from me were two gay men making out. Ok I guess it is discrminative because if it were a heterosexual couple, It wouldnt bother me as much. But my point is that this "sin" is becoming normal today. When my kids are growing up, they will be offered the "option" to like guys or girls. My kid will be heterosexual, but seeing as how both orientations are normal by society, he could chose the genetically/biologically wrong one. Now that scares me.
 
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