Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread

Homosexuality comes up frequenbtly on Orthodox forums because..

  • Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet.

    Votes: 20 27.8%
  • Since drunkeness, adultery, theft and dishonesty have been eradicated it's the only sin left to figh

    Votes: 10 13.9%
  • Apparently most Orthodox Christians have lots of gay family, friends and associates

    Votes: 7 9.7%
  • Orthodox forums attract a lot of self torturing closet cases and men with doubts about thier own mas

    Votes: 20 27.8%
  • Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet.

    Votes: 15 20.8%

  • Total voters
    72
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SolEX01

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Aristobolus said:
If a person or church wants to fall into heresy, let them?  Possibly this was not phrased well.  Should our concern not be for our neighbor? 
If our neighbor refuses to listen, we can't force them.  Look at Pharaoh and Moses or even Arius and the Council of Nicaea.
 

PeterTheAleut

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SolEX01 said:
Aristobolus said:
If a person or church wants to fall into heresy, let them?  Possibly this was not phrased well.  Should our concern not be for our neighbor? 
If our neighbor refuses to listen, we can't force them.  Look at Pharaoh and Moses or even Arius and the Council of Nicaea.
About all we can do is break off communion with heretics.  I think churches have tried the idea of persecuting heretics with the idea of forcing them to recant.  Much good that did. ::)
 

Aristobolus

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PeterTheAleut said:
SolEX01 said:
Aristobolus said:
If a person or church wants to fall into heresy, let them?  Possibly this was not phrased well.  Should our concern not be for our neighbor? 
If our neighbor refuses to listen, we can't force them.  Look at Pharaoh and Moses or even Arius and the Council of Nicaea.
About all we can do is break off communion with heretics.  I think churches have tried the idea of persecuting heretics with the idea of forcing them to recant.  Much good that did. ::)
Very well said.
 

CRCulver

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PeterTheAleut said:
About all we can do is break off communion with heretics.  I think churches have tried the idea of persecuting heretics with the idea of forcing them to recant.  Much good that did. ::)
It does pretty well. Perhaps the heretics don't recant, but persecution does limit their ability to spread their heresies. Look at how Russia, for example, has succeeded fairly well with resisting the onslaught of American Protestant missionaries compared to, say, Romania.
 

Robert W

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:'(

This discussion is so soul destroying that my English is lacking in describing it.

I have found an article (actually two articles) that would be of interest to anyone seriously interested in what is going on in Finland.

http://www.aamunkoitto.fi/pages/keskustelua.php

I was going to translate it, but now that I have read the recent posts on this thread I don't have the energy to do so anymore.
 

CRCulver

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Robert W said:
:'(

This discussion is so soul destroying that my English is lacking in describing it.

I have found an article (actually two articles) that would be of interest to anyone seriously interested in what is going on in Finland.

http://www.aamunkoitto.fi/pages/keskustelua.php

I was going to translate it, but now that I have read the recent posts on this thread I don't have the energy to do so anymore.
I'm completely aghast that this was published in an official Finnish Orthodox forum. It's like being in a collapsing ECUSA all over again. I'll try to do an English translation later tonight.
 

Robert W

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Thank you CRCulver for taking the time to do "my job".

For anyone that knows Finnish, I can bring to attention a blog post by bishop Arseni of Joensuu (auxiliary bishop to the archbishop).

http://ortodoksi.net/ortodoksi/blogi/arseni/2008/11/18/kaksi-kirjaa/
 

Aristobolus

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CRCulver said:
PeterTheAleut said:
About all we can do is break off communion with heretics.  I think churches have tried the idea of persecuting heretics with the idea of forcing them to recant.  Much good that did. ::)
It does pretty well. Perhaps the heretics don't recant, but persecution does limit their ability to spread their heresies. Look at how Russia, for example, has succeeded fairly well with resisting the onslaught of American Protestant missionaries compared to, say, Romania.
Also very well said.
 

PeterTheAleut

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CRCulver said:
PeterTheAleut said:
About all we can do is break off communion with heretics.  I think churches have tried the idea of persecuting heretics with the idea of forcing them to recant.  Much good that did. ::)
It does pretty well. Perhaps the heretics don't recant, but persecution does limit their ability to spread their heresies. Look at how Russia, for example, has succeeded fairly well with resisting the onslaught of American Protestant missionaries compared to, say, Romania.
Depends on how you define persecution.  I was thinking of it more in terms of the Spanish Inquisition, the heresy trials, and the mass murder of heretics that have been carried out by various churches in the name of the Church.
 

Starlight

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CRCulver said:
Robert W said:
:'(

This discussion is so soul destroying that my English is lacking in describing it.

I have found an article (actually two articles) that would be of interest to anyone seriously interested in what is going on in Finland.

http://www.aamunkoitto.fi/pages/keskustelua.php

I was going to translate it, but now that I have read the recent posts on this thread I don't have the energy to do so anymore.
I'm completely aghast that this was published in an official Finnish Orthodox forum. It's like being in a collapsing ECUSA all over again. I'll try to do an English translation later tonight.
May I ask you - has it been presented as an official position of the Finnish Orthodox Church in the aforementioned forum? Or could it be just another opinion, published in a forum?
 

CRCulver

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Here's the first letter from the oh-so-appropriately titled "Dialogue" section of Aamun Koitto. Robert W., please correct any mistakes you find, as I'm nowhere close to a native speaker of Finnish.

In the darkness of values

Hannu Pöyhönen has written a book called Homosexuality in the Light of Orthodox Tradition

In Pöyhönen's thought, an opinion is stressed that homosexual drives are a quite exceptional pleasure and are always lurking in ambush. According to researchers homosexuals are 3–7% of the population and bisexuals around 10–30%, while among the people of the Church sinners make up a firm one hundred percent. Questions from churchgoers to administration on homosexual relationships raise the challenge of tolerance and respect for human rights in these binding ties.

It's dangerous if the teaching of the church is expressed by fragments especially chosen to mislead. What ought one to think about the tale Pöyhönen has borrowed about a "person", where his blessing is requested when "a young man in his teens, who felt a strong attraction to other young men" ..."got trapped under a car and died"?

The American Westboro Baptist Church teaches that God is angry at Finland, because its government has approxed homosexual partnerships. Is the same message of love to be taught in the popular courses at Valamo?

I am concerned about our neighbours, who think that Pöyhönen's little book reflects Orthodox tradition other than darker shadows.

I ask the clergy to discern with wisdom and strength and cure the superstition of parishioners or wounds inflected while in the grip of fear.

-- Janne Huttunen
 

Robert W

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Thanks again CRCulver for the translation. I cannot find any flaws with it myself, but then my again mothers tongue isn't Finnish either.

Interestlingly Mr. Janne Huttunen does (perhaps by mistake?) call homosexuality "sin" with his comparison of procentiles.

Starlight said:
May I ask you - has it been presented as an official position of the Finnish Orthodox Church in the aforementioned forum? Or could it be just another opinion, published in a forum?
There is a part of the website of the newpaper aamun koitto that is labelled keskustelu (discussion). It is there that two short text by different authors are presented.

The "discussion" is about a small book, that takes a traditional standpoint, published by doctor of theology Hannu Pöyhynen.
 

Starlight

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Dear CRCulver and Robert W,
Thank you very much for your translation and explanation.
 

theoforos

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CRCulver said:
While Theoprovlitos' rhetoric may occasionally be over the top, it is not his imagination that the Finnish Orthodox Church is moving to embrace homosexual relationships. Spend a few weeks participating in church life in Helsinki's Uspensky Cathedral, or read the introductions to the Church written by clergy in the Finnish national press, and this will be very obvious to you.
I've been going to the Uspensky cathedral for years (normally at least once a week), and I don't know what you are talking about...
 

PoorFoolNicholas

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theoforos said:
I've been going to the Uspensky cathedral for years (normally at least once a week), and I don't know what you are talking about...
You mean that this is all just hogwash!!!! Never!  ::)
 

theoforos

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CRCulver said:
For my part, even more disturbing than the increasing tolerance of homosexual relationships, which is not yet fully implemented, is the Church of Finland's open communion. Every Sunday in Uspensky you can see tourists going up and being given the Eucharist, some of whom aren't even Christian (I spoke to one such tourist once after the service, who turned out to be happily Hindu). Isn't the Lord's Body and Blood to be guarded with severity?

Then you have a problem with the Church of Finland commissioning liturgical music from non-Orthodox (or even non-Christians).

Again, I just can't wait to get out of here and spend all my time in a Church that seems in tune with world Orthodoxy.
Well, during all these years, I remember one occasion when some Asian looking people joined the communion line. I was horrified (although I knew there was a slight possibility that they were Japanese Orthodox), but fortunately someone (a lay person) went up to them, and after a short conversation they quit the line. However, the way communion is distributed does have some risks. If you know how to behave, and don't look too touristy, you most likely won't be asked any questions, and the priests assume you are Orthodox. There is no chance the priests would be able to know everyone, so the only way to avoid this problem would be to introduce some kind of an Orthodox ID you had to show to the priest when approaching the chalice. The other option would be to expel any non-Orthodox from the church at the beginning of the Liturgy of the Faithful, but then again there would have to be some kind of an ID to be able to find out who is Orthodox and who is not. I know about one obstinate Lutheran who thinks he has the right to get communion wherever he feels like it who was able to get communion there, but I don't really think it is such a big problem. Usually they say just before the pre-communion prayer that the communion is only for the Orthodox, and normally the non-Orthodox visitors respect that.
 

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PoorFoolNicholas said:
theoforos said:
I've been going to the Uspensky cathedral for years (normally at least once a week), and I don't know what you are talking about...
You mean that this is all just hogwash!!!! Never!  ::)
I wasn't talking about the gay issue as such, only about the Uspensky cathedral. I haven't noticed any gay activity in the Uspensky cathedral, but I know there are certain things going on in the Orthodox church of Finland, and much of what has been said here is true, although I must admit I feel it is highly exaggerated. It's not quite as bad here as it has been made to look like. Anyway, I'm happy about the international attention. Most Finnish Orthodox know very little about what Orthodoxy outside of Finland is like, which makes them easy targets for any kind of propaganda. I hope the international attention will gradually make people realize that the Orthodox church is one, and it cannot be changed by a small group of "reformers". 
 

theoforos

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theoforos said:
I know about one obstinate Lutheran who thinks he has the right to get communion wherever he feels like it who was able to get communion there, but I don't really think it is such a big problem. Usually they say just before the pre-communion prayer that the communion is only for the Orthodox, and normally the non-Orthodox visitors respect that.
I think I have to clarify that one. Of course I didn't mean to say it's not such a big problem if a Lutheran receives Orthodox communion, because it of course is a huge problem, and should never happen. What I was trying to say was that I don't think it happens often. I know other Lutherans who like to go to Orthodox services, but they know they are not supposed to receive communion, and they respect that.
 

theoforos

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Someone also mentioned fasting before communion. I can't find the post now. The normal practice in Finland is to fast (no food or drink) from midnight if the liturgy is in the morning or from noon if the liturgy is in the evening, or from 6 p.m. if the liturgy is part of a longer vigil service, the communion taking place during the early hours of the day, which would mean that the usual practice of fasting from midnight would mean less than 6 hours of fasting (which is the absolute minimum). These are the rules normally followed by anyone who hasn't received blessing from his/her priest to follow some other rules, and I think most people follow the rules, although I can't possible know because it's considered inappropriate to inquire about other people's fasting. I know about some diabetics or people who have to take medicine who don't follow the general fasting guidelines with the blessing of their priest, but I'm quite sure there are people who deliberately break the rules without the blessing of their priest, but I don't have any reason to believe that it is common in Finland not to follow the guidelines about the communion fast. Although my impression is that the communion fast rules are normally followed quite well in Finland, I have enough concrete evidence of Finnish Orthodox not following other fasting rules, e.g. eating dairy products is very common also during the four longer fasts (to the extent that many people don't even seem to be aware of dairy products being off limits during the fasts), and I'm afraid most people don't fast on Wednesdays and Fridays.
 
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