Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread

Homosexuality comes up frequenbtly on Orthodox forums because..

  • Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet.

    Votes: 20 27.8%
  • Since drunkeness, adultery, theft and dishonesty have been eradicated it's the only sin left to figh

    Votes: 10 13.9%
  • Apparently most Orthodox Christians have lots of gay family, friends and associates

    Votes: 7 9.7%
  • Orthodox forums attract a lot of self torturing closet cases and men with doubts about thier own mas

    Votes: 20 27.8%
  • Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet.

    Votes: 15 20.8%

  • Total voters
    72
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Vlad

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Alpo said:
Nah, facts are boring. It's much more satisfying to label things with groundless but arousing claims.
You may note once you get over your condescension that in my post I asked if this was normal.
 

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I may have missed a post, but how is this conference/viewpoint being received in the Finnish Church among the clergy and laity in general? If it goes forward, might there be a major schism in Finland?
 

simplygermain

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Irish Hermit - Fr. Bless, 
Being a member of the clergy, you would be the person to ask...So when and where does the line in the sand get drawn? How can Orthodoxy seperate Herself from this scurge?
I mean, does the EP need to write an official document stating seperation and Anathemas against certain persons and heresies, or what's the official red-tape we're waiting for?

sorry - it's like I just found a termite infestation in my house. Just want it gone.
 

Irish Hermit

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simplygermain said:
Irish Hermit - Fr. Bless, 
Being a member of the clergy, you would be the person to ask...So when and where does the line in the sand get drawn? How can Orthodoxy seperate Herself from this scurge?
I mean, does the EP need to write an official document stating seperation and Anathemas against certain persons and heresies, or what's the official red-tape we're waiting for?
I would think that Robert expresses it well, "... keep in mind that the loud minority wishing to reinterpret historical teaching does not represent a majority consensus."

So we may hope that the majority of the Church in Finland, probably allied with a few nudges from other Orthodox Churches especially the Russian, will be sufficient to keep the Church of Finland on an even keel morally.
 

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Vlad said:
Looks like us Orthodox have our own weirdo Episcopal style Church. Is this normal for Orthodoxy? Since I am still rather new I really dont know.
Sigh.  They're still human beings and is it necessary to introduce cracks about other Churches, please?   :(

And just as Robert W wrote about the EO in Finland, Anglicans aren't all the same.  Going by who is reported on in the news doesn't cover much of the people in a Church. 
 

Alpo

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Vlad said:
You may note once you get over your condescension that in my post I asked if this was normal.
And before asking you compared my Church with a denomination whose bishops are rejecting resurrection etc. and asked Lord to guide us back to Christianity. Yep, just an innocent question. That's pretty much like asking have you stopped beating your wife.

But I wouldn't like to argue about thist just before our wrong calendarist Feast of the Nativity. Sorry if I was being disrespectful. May Lord have mercy on the Finnish Church and on us all.
 

ozgeorge

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Alpo said:
Vlad said:
You may note once you get over your condescension that in my post I asked if this was normal.
And before asking you compared my Church with a denomination whose bishops are rejecting resurrection etc. and asked Lord to guide us back to Christianity. Yep, just an innocent question. That's pretty much like asking have you stopped beating your wife.

But I wouldn't like to argue about thist just before our wrong calendarist Feast of the Nativity. Sorry if I was being disrespectful. May Lord have mercy on the Finnish Church and on us all.
Never fear Alpo. The Russian Church will keep you guys on track.....
 

greekischristian

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simplygermain said:
Irish Hermit - Fr. Bless, 
Being a member of the clergy, you would be the person to ask...So when and where does the line in the sand get drawn? How can Orthodoxy seperate Herself from this scurge?
I mean, does the EP need to write an official document stating seperation and Anathemas against certain persons and heresies, or what's the official red-tape we're waiting for?

sorry - it's like I just found a termite infestation in my house. Just want it gone.
Don't hold your breath...Constantinople hasn't issued an Anathema since 1872.
 

greekischristian

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ozgeorge said:
Alpo said:
Vlad said:
You may note once you get over your condescension that in my post I asked if this was normal.
And before asking you compared my Church with a denomination whose bishops are rejecting resurrection etc. and asked Lord to guide us back to Christianity. Yep, just an innocent question. That's pretty much like asking have you stopped beating your wife.

But I wouldn't like to argue about thist just before our wrong calendarist Feast of the Nativity. Sorry if I was being disrespectful. May Lord have mercy on the Finnish Church and on us all.
Never fear Alpo. The Russian Church will keep you guys on track.....
LMAO!
 

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At last, 7 months after the original post where I have been scorned, warned etc at last I am justified.

These documents have been sent to both EP and MP. So far we do not know their responce.

As to the Finnish Church they are sinking from bad to worse as long as bishop Ambrosius remains in his place.

His latest news (after the freemason-Orthodoxy approach conference, and the Christian gay conference now is Yoga seminary "The yoga of truth" from a gourou in the Orthodox Centre of Helsinki 'Sofia'!

http://www.lansirannikonjoogakerho.com/documents/Marchand-esite.pdf

What can one say? And OF COURSE they are in communion with the Swedish Lutheran church that now blesses gay marriages.
 

Irish Hermit

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Theoprovlitos said:
At last, 7 months after the original post where I have been scorned, warned etc at last I am justified.
Yes, you have been justified and when I posted this latest document I was thinking of you and all the scorn you had unjustly borne.

Fr Ambrose

 

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GiC said:
simplygermain said:
Irish Hermit - Fr. Bless, 
Being a member of the clergy, you would be the person to ask...So when and where does the line in the sand get drawn? How can Orthodoxy seperate Herself from this scurge?
I mean, does the EP need to write an official document stating seperation and Anathemas against certain persons and heresies, or what's the official red-tape we're waiting for?

sorry - it's like I just found a termite infestation in my house. Just want it gone.
Don't hold your breath...Constantinople hasn't issued an Anathema since 1872.
thanks for the reassurance GiC. I can always count on you buddy. ;)
 

Theoprovlitos

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Thank you Fr Ambrose,

My point was not really to be justified after all, but when the church is at risk and somebody is calling for help you just hear what he has to say. Imagine if someone run away from an abusive  cult and turned to the police to ask for help and the police would call him a lier demanding him for more and more proofs so that they might intervene.
 

greekischristian

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simplygermain said:
GiC said:
simplygermain said:
Irish Hermit - Fr. Bless, 
Being a member of the clergy, you would be the person to ask...So when and where does the line in the sand get drawn? How can Orthodoxy seperate Herself from this scurge?
I mean, does the EP need to write an official document stating seperation and Anathemas against certain persons and heresies, or what's the official red-tape we're waiting for?

sorry - it's like I just found a termite infestation in my house. Just want it gone.
Don't hold your breath...Constantinople hasn't issued an Anathema since 1872.
thanks for the reassurance GiC. I can always count on you buddy. ;)
Any time, glad I could help. ;D

And since I've been so helpful thus far, the Anathema issued in 1872 was in direct response to a threat against its territorial jurisdiction by the Church of Bulgaria. So, unless Finland sets up a parallel bishopric in Constantinople, they're probably safe. ;)
 

greekischristian

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Theoprovlitos said:
Thank you Fr Ambrose,

My point was not really to be justified after all, but when the church is at risk and somebody is calling for help you just hear what he has to say. Imagine if someone run away from an abusive  cult and turned to the police to ask for help and the police would call him a lier demanding him for more and more proofs so that they might intervene.
Seriously? You're comparing the members of this forum to the police? Who here do you seriously think has any influence, much less, authority over the Archbishop of Karelia and the Oecumenical Patriarch in these matters?
 

Alveus Lacuna

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Theoprovlitos said:
And OF COURSE they are in communion with the Swedish Lutheran church that now blesses gay marriages.
Is this official?  Can you substantiate this?

Just to be clear, I do not necessarily think that you are lying, as much of this has been proven in the report, I was just looking for your source.

Alpo, I'm personally glad to have someone from the Finnish church on here.  It is one of my many travelling dreams to one day come to Finland and while there see some great Finnish metal and attend a liturgy.  Are your services is Finnish or Church Slavonic?
 

Alpo

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Alveus Lacuna said:
Alpo, I'm personally glad to have someone from the Finnish church on here.
Well I'm quite recent convert so I don't know much. Fortunately we have also Robert W, CRCulver, theoforos (and St. Kosmas' Brotherhood) even though they does not seem to be as addicted to OCnet as I. :p

It is one of my many travelling dreams to one day come to Finland and while there see some great Finnish metal and attend a liturgy.
Tervetuloa i.e. welcome! You might want to attend Tuska festival at some point.

Are your services is Finnish or Church Slavonic?
In Finnish normally but there are occasional services in Church Slavonic in many parishes. Furthermore there are three churches in Helsinki i.e. the capital of Finland whose services are always in Slavonic.
 

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I just found this video of the cathedral done by some sort of Protestant pastor with plenty of his own negative commentary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWuaKMoawQ0&feature=related
 

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That's the first Orthodox church I've ever visited. The echo blurred singing of the choir and there didn't seem to be any logic in the order of the service. I recall being pleased though that nobody seemed to worship the Mother of God. :p
 

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Inform the Archbishop about the bishop? You think he doesn't know? They got dozens of complaints and instead they were covering up the whole thing and sensored those who protest. The leader of the heresy send even the police to someone's home to threaten him for 'talking negatively against him.' They only thing that could make these guys slow down is global awareness. Not that they will feel any fear or shame but they will have to slow down.

When the orthodox priest Heikki Huttunen with the blessings of the Orthodox Church represents ALL churhces as the secretary of the Ecumenical Counsil in Finland and speaks on BEHALF of the Lutheran Church of Finland too which IS in communion with the Swedish church, and actually leaders of the Finnish Lutheran Church work with Huttunen so that ecclesiastical gay marriages will be introduced in the Finnsh churches obviously they are in communion.

One does not have to proof that they ARE but that they are NOT. Because their being in communion is an official and obvious fact that cannot be denied.

In Oulu they are doing a self made up Ecumenical Liturgy.

http://www.aamunkoitto.fi/pages/kirkon-kentaellae/ekumeenisia-palveluksia-oulussa.php

Thank God there is google translalte so that you can check yourself in case someone will call me a lier but I edited it a bit


______
Oulu Orthodox parish vicar Raimo Kiiskinen will retire early next year.

- The Church is active, viable and vibrant, "says Raimo father serving in Oulu, vicar for 17 years.

When he launched early next year moves to enjoy a well-deserved retirement dates, will mark the 40 years after he was ordained a priest.

- Church buildings are in good shape, as well as economic. Will be completed by the end of the year a new parish, the sum of the father Raimo situation.

The congregation also has a good relationship with the city and the university, the Reverend rejoices.

Except the services of a high number of Orthodox, Oulu has already been a dozen years to participate in ecumenical religious services, which are held alternately in the Orthodox, Catholic and Lutheran church premises. .

Ecumenical service at the features of each Church ritual. Prior to the gospel of incense, musical instruments are used. The framework for the three denominations is the fact that they accept each other's baptism, confession of faith: "I acknowledge one baptism." In the service always participate an the Orthodox, a Catholic and a Lutheran pastor.

Around fifty people loose community broaden the views of other churches and to remove the prejudices which still can occur.

By the way, the source is one of the official Orthodox magazines of Finland who till recently was the headquarters of the gay porpaganda.

Thanks to this awareness and my struggle (along with other people) the gay-married director was at last removed
 

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Theoprovlitos said:
When the orthodox priest Heikki Huttunen with the blessings of the Orthodox Church represents ALL churhces as the secretary of the Ecumenical Counsil in Finland and speaks on BEHALF of the Lutheran Church of Finland too which IS in communion with the Swedish church, and actually leaders of the Finnish Lutheran Church work with Huttunen so that ecclesiastical gay marriages will be introduced in the Finnsh churches obviously they are in communion.
It's obvious. Thank you for having opened my eyes. I'll stop talking to my non-Orthodox friend because doing that I'll became a member of their Church and could get a homosexuality. It's very infectious.
 

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Theoprovlitos said:
At last, 7 months after the original post where I have been scorned, warned etc at last I am justified.
Nothing justifies a Chicken Little message offered without proof.  The evidence Irish Hermit posted seems to verify your accusations, but this doesn't justify your original approach that started this thread nor the same panicked tone you've brought back to this thread.
 

Irish Hermit

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PeterTheAleut said:
Theoprovlitos said:
At last, 7 months after the original post where I have been scorned, warned etc at last I am justified.
Nothing justifies a Chicken Little message offered without proof.  The evidence Irish Hermit posted seems to verify your accusations, but this doesn't justify your original approach that started this thread nor the same panicked tone you've brought back to this thread.
Peter,

What happened when Theo introduced this topic is standard for any whistleblower situation.  At first they are not believed, ridiculed and scorned.  They get panicky, thinking that what they know to be true is going to be buried under a pile of scepticism and the wrong will simply continue.  So their tone starts to get a little strident.  All quite normal in whistleblower situations.  Whistleblowers may not possess all the facts originally -they come to light slowly and piecemeal. But they do a great service to the Church and the world generally and should be given some credence.
 

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Nowadays I'm rarely in Finland, and for liturgy I prefer to schedule things so that I can attend the parish in Tallinn on the other side of the Baltic than in the Church of Finland. But I think the report does much to substantiate my fears voiced earlier this year that the Church of Finland is sliding towards "I'm OK, you're OK" rhetoric, horribly reminiscent of the Episcopal Church that I left for Orthodoxy.
 

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CRCulver said:
Church of Finland is sliding towards "I'm OK, you're OK" rhetoric, horribly reminiscent of the Episcopal Church that I left for Orthodoxy.
Why is it that its only the converts from Protestantism and Roman Catholicism who are over-reacting to this?
Could one of you converts please tell me what the Church of Finland has actually said to unsettle you?
 

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ozgeorge said:
Why is it that its only the converts from Protestantism and Roman Catholicism who are over-reacting to this?
Well, on this forum we only have converts to Orthodoxy in Finland. In any event, the report compiled by the Brotherhood of St. Kosmas of Aitolia was penned by cradle Orthodox.

Could one of you converts please tell me what the Church of Finland has actually said to unsettle you?
Well, let me just take one example from the Aamun Koitto debacle: the official magazine of an autonomous Church prints an issue containing an interview with five eminent Orthodox, four of which say that homosexual partnerships are to be celebrated in the Orthodox Church. Can you imagine this happening anywhere else in the Orthodox world?
 

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ozgeorge said:
CRCulver said:
Church of Finland is sliding towards "I'm OK, you're OK" rhetoric, horribly reminiscent of the Episcopal Church that I left for Orthodoxy.
Why is it that its only the converts from Protestantism and Roman Catholicism who are over-reacting to this?
Could one of you converts please tell me what the Church of Finland has actually said to unsettle you?
Perhaps it is because they know to where such a road leads? Many converts enter Orthodoxy because they see it as a way to 'retreat' from the errors of their own Traditions. Orthodoxy claiming to be 'the' Church of God gives them confidence that such moral errors will befall the Orthodox Church. When they encounter moral slippage... it concerns them and perhaps casts doubt on their belief that Orthodoxy can with stand modernity.
 

Irish Hermit

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ozgeorge said:
So your answer is: "No, I can't point out any statement by the Church of Finland to justify my reaction".
Would it be realistic to expect the Church of Finland to issue an overt statement that it is soft on the homosexual issue? 

I can imagine that would cause a percentage of its members to move into the Moscow parishes.
 

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Irish Hermit said:
Would it be realistic to expect the Church of Finland to issue an overt statement that it is soft on the homosexual issue? 
Yes, it would. From that text:
The Episcopal Synod states that the members of the clergy have committed themselves either to marital life or celibacy. It is the demand and ideal starting from the personal decision made by each member of the clergy. The teaching of the Church cannot be revised on the basis of signing any declaration. It is valuable that the Orthodox who have signed the declaration state this: ‘We aren’t creating any new practices into the life of the Church or draw parallels between homosexual partnership and marriage’.
 

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mike said:
Irish Hermit said:
Would it be realistic to expect the Church of Finland to issue an overt statement that it is soft on the homosexual issue? 
Yes, it would. From that text:
The Episcopal Synod states that the members of the clergy have committed themselves either to marital life or celibacy. It is the demand and ideal starting from the personal decision made by each member of the clergy. The teaching of the Church cannot be revised on the basis of signing any declaration. It is valuable that the Orthodox who have signed the declaration state this: ‘We aren’t creating any new practices into the life of the Church or draw parallels between homosexual partnership and marriage’.
Notice there is no condemnation of homosexual partnerships for the laity.  Merely a statement that they are not drawing parallels between partnership and marriage.  Cleverly phrased to leave the door open.  "He who has ears..."
 

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mike said:
... and are not creating any new practises into the life of Church.
Yes, that's true.  Homosexuality has been found to exist in the Church since the beginning.  The Church is no more immune to it than the rest of the human race.
 
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