Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread

[Tamara]

Well, on this forum we only have converts to Orthodoxy in Finland. In any event, the report compiled by the Brotherhood of St. Kosmas of Aitolia was penned by cradle Orthodox.

I noticed that too. He seems to be a Greek gentleman who even started a site on Facebook explaining the situation in Finland.

Well, let me just take one example from the Aamun Koitto debacle: the official magazine of an autonomous Church prints an issue containing an interview with five eminent Orthodox, four of which say that homosexual partnerships are to be celebrated in the Orthodox Church. Can you imagine this happening anywhere else in the Orthodox world?

You will have to just ignore some of the posters on this forum. They believe the Orthodox Church will bless gay unions at some point in time. Don't fall for their questioning or bullying tactics (ie: blaming converts). Ignore them. Many of us already do. Just keep reporting what you have seen or heard.

 

[ms.hoorah]

Well, on this forum we only have converts to Orthodoxy in Finland. In any event, the report compiled by the Brotherhood of St. Kosmas of Aitolia was penned by cradle Orthodox.

I noticed that too. He seems to be a Greek gentleman who even started a site on Facebook explaining the situation in Finland.

Well, let me just take one example from the Aamun Koitto debacle: the official magazine of an autonomous Church prints an issue containing an interview with five eminent Orthodox, four of which say that homosexual partnerships are to be celebrated in the Orthodox Church. Can you imagine this happening anywhere else in the Orthodox world?

You will have to just ignore some of the posters on this forum. They believe the Orthodox Church will bless gay unions at some point in time. Don't fall for their questioning or bullying tactics (ie: blaming converts). Ignore them. Many of us already do. Just keep reporting what you have seen or heard.

Stop the Gay Orthodox Cult must be the site.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=49700569468

I don’t subscribe to facebook so I cannot see the member list, but I heard that my Archbishop was a member of this site.  Many years Master!

 

[ozgeorge]

I noticed that too. He seems to be a Greek gentleman who even started a site on Facebook explaining the situation in Finland.

So this "Brotherhood" is just another lone crackpot with a keyboard.

 

[Irish Hermit]

You will have to just ignore some of the posters on this forum. They believe the Orthodox Church will bless gay unions at some point in time. Don't fall for their questioning or bullying tactics (ie: blaming converts). Ignore them. Many of us already do. Just keep reporting what you have seen or heard.

I agree that we should be alert to any lobbying on the Forum to advance the homosexual agenda.  With such a huge membership it is to be expected that we have a great diversity of views on the question.

One thing that should not be done is to assume that because there are no solid official statements from the bishops that the Finnish problem is a fantasy.  I would say that the bishops prefer to work quietly, without creating scandal in the public media; demanding that people present official statements from the bishops without which they have no case is simply a tactic to muzzle people.

However, if you look back through this thread you will find articles from Finland's neighbouring Russian Church which express deep concern about the situation which has developed in the Finnish Church with regard to homosexuality.

 

[CRCulver]

So this "Brotherhood" is just another lone crackpot with a keyboard.

No, the Brotherhood is a recognized group of Finnish Orthodox which were founded well before the recent events. The Greek fellow has just been trying to spread the findings of the Brotherhood to other Orthodox Churches.

 

[Asteriktos]

I noticed that too. He seems to be a Greek gentleman who even started a site on Facebook explaining the situation in Finland.

So this "Brotherhood" is just another lone crackpot with a keyboard.

If you're referring to the "Stop the Orthodox Gay Cult" thing, they actually have 99 people. And fwiw, they have an OCA bishop as a member, Bp. Melchisedek (Pleska).

 

[ozgeorge]

I noticed that too. He seems to be a Greek gentleman who even started a site on Facebook explaining the situation in Finland.

So this "Brotherhood" is just another lone crackpot with a keyboard.

If you're referring to the "Stop the Orthodox Gay Cult" thing, they actually have 99 people. And fwiw, they have an OCA bishop as a member, Bp. Melchisedek (Pleska).

No I'm not, I'm referring to the "Brotherhood of St. Cosmas Aitolos" in Finland.

 

[Irish Hermit]

So this "Brotherhood" is just another lone crackpot with a keyboard.

The Brotherood is far more than a "lone crackpot."  The Brotherhood's concerns are shared by much wider circles in the Church.

The Question About Homosexuals 20.3.2007

The Question About Homosexuals is Complicating Relationships Between the Orthodox in Russia and Finland

"Attitudes towards homosexuals is becoming the key issue of Orthodox church politics. The Russian media has presented the gay-liberal outlining of Finnish orthodox priests, which is strictly condemned by the Patriarchate of Moscow.

"According to Russian sources, the visibly positive attitude towards homosexuality in the Finnish Orthodox circles might expedite the Patriarchate of Moscow to take the decision to establish a Russian diocese in Finland..."

Read article at
http://sateenkaariseura.wordpress.com/articles-from-other-sites/the-question-about-homosexuals-2032007/

 

[ozgeorge]

So this "Brotherhood" is just another lone crackpot with a keyboard.

The Brotherood is far more than a "lone crackpot."   The Brotherhood's concerns are shared by much wider circles in the Church.

Any lone crackpot on the internet can call themselves a "Brotherhood", but it doesn't make them more than one person. There are may lone crackpots who start websites about Freemasons controlling the USA and just because their "concerns are shared by much wider circles in the Church", doesn't make them any less lone or any less crackpot. Calling yourself a "Brotherhood" doesn't make you one. Or perhaps I'm wrong Irish Hermit, perhaps you have access to the extensive member list of the "Brotherhood of St. Cosmas Aitolos"? Surely, if "they" want to show any credibility, they will say "who" they are and not simply publish things anonymously. That would give the impression that they are not a "Brotherhood" at all, but just a lone crackpot with a keyboard.

 

[Irish Hermit]

So this "Brotherhood" is just another lone crackpot with a keyboard.

The Brotherood is far more than a "lone crackpot."   The Brotherhood's concerns are shared by much wider circles in the Church.

Any lone crackpot on the internet can call themselves a "Brotherhood", but it doesn't make them more than one person.............. <snip> Calling yourself a "Brotherhood" doesn't make you one. Or perhaps I'm wrong Irish Hermit, perhaps you have access to the extensive member list of the "Brotherhood of St. Cosmas Aitolos"?

I don't really understand what you are wanting to say?  Are you saying that you have access to some membership list for this Brotherhood which shows it is just one person?

 

[Alveus Lacuna]

I'm sure he finds these reports fishy because they seem like small operations without any official synodal backing.

But it would also be noted that the efforts might irritate him because he personally supports homosexual unions in the Orthodox Church.  I don't say this to try and create conflict, but just to put his views on the table for those who aren't aware.  Forgive me if this is not proper for me to do.

 

[CRCulver]

Surely, if "they" want to show any credibility, they will say "who" they are and not simply publish things anonymously.

There are credits in the report.

The Brotherhood has received recognition by the Finnish Orthodox Church as a legitimate organization of lay Orthodox and they have published a number of books for the Finnish Orthodox community by a variety of authors. But hey, keep pretending it's merely some lone crackpot just because you don't like the message.

 

[ozgeorge]

I don't really understand what you are wanting to say? 

Exactly what I am saying. If a "group" wishes to issue a "report" the way the "Brotherhood" of St. Cosmas has, then surely, if "they" want to claim any credibility then "they" will say who the "persons" of the group were which complied and issued the report. What kind of idiot would believe a "report" without knowing who compiles and issues it?

 

[Irish Hermit]

If a "group" wishes to issue a "report" the way the "Brotherhood" of St. Cosmas has, then surely, if "they" want to claim any credibility then "they" will say who the "persons" of the group were which complied and issued the report. What kind of idiot would believe a "report" without knowing who compiles and issues it?

:laugh:  One could also ask:  what kind of idiot can read a report without noticing that it finishes with contact details for the Society's Chairman and Vice Chairman.  I imagine the contact details are provided so that people with enquiries may contact them.

Contacts of The Brotherhood of Saint Kosmas of Aitolia
Pyhän Kosmas Aitolialaisen Veljestö ry

Chairman Mr Hannu Pöyhönen
stomen.kalos@kolumbus.fi

and

Vice Chairman Mr Markus Paavola
marpaavo@yahoo.co.uk

For further information (mainly in Finnish), please see at internet www.kosmas.fi

 

[ozgeorge]

I am the Chairman of the Brotherhood of St. Tibulus.
I can't possibly be a lone crackpot with a keyboard because I am a Chairman of a Brotherhood.

 

[CRCulver]

I am the Chairman of the Brotherhood of St. Tibulus.
I can't possibly be a lone crackpot with a keyboard because I am a Chairman of a Brotherhood.

Since Ozgeorge continues to post comments whose only purpose is to impede discussion, I suggest this thread be closed.

 

[ozgeorge]

I am the Chairman of the Brotherhood of St. Tibulus.
I can't possibly be a lone crackpot with a keyboard because I am a Chairman of a Brotherhood.

Since Ozgeorge continues to post comments whose only purpose is to impede discussion, I suggest this thread be closed.

It should have been closed from the start since no one can present anything but gossip and a "report" from a lay nobody.

 

[Irish Hermit]

I am the Chairman of the Brotherhood of St. Tibulus.
I can't possibly be a lone crackpot with a keyboard because I am a Chairman of a Brotherhood.

Dear George,

People in the higher echelons of the Church see it a little more seriously.

Here is a statement from the priest who heads the Secretariat for Inter-Orthodox Relations of ROCOR.  PLease note that the response from Moscow also treats it seriously  ~ unless you think there is a contingent of crackpot Russian priests sitting at their keyboards and plotting how to destroy homosexuals in the Church of Finland.  ???

"When this Finnish aberration was discovered, the Secretariat for
Inter-Orthodox Relations of the ROCOR sent a formal note expressing
deep concern about this issue to the Department of External Relations
of the Moscow Patriarchate.

"A response was received, informing us that the MP had already been
informed of the Finnish situation by the local MP priest there, and
that an appropriate measures would be taken.

"(Of course, the Orthodox Church of Finland is an autonomous
Archbishopric under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate,
so that neither the Moscow Patriarchate nor ROCOR have any authority
over it).

"... Both the ROCOR and the MP have taken note of the situation with
regards to this "Rainbow" Conference in Finland, and are in communication
as to how to condemn it in the strongest possible way.


"With love in Christ,
"Prot. Alexander Lebedeff"

 

[ozgeorge]

I am the Chairman of the Brotherhood of St. Tibulus.
I can't possibly be a lone crackpot with a keyboard because I am a Chairman of a Brotherhood.

Dear George,

People in the higher echelons of the Church see it a little more seriously.

A Priest in ROCOR hardly qualifies as "the higher echelons of the Church".
Unless one is subject to grandiose delusions.

 

[Irish Hermit]

I am the Chairman of the Brotherhood of St. Tibulus.
I can't possibly be a lone crackpot with a keyboard because I am a Chairman of a Brotherhood.

Since Ozgeorge continues to post comments whose only purpose is to impede discussion, I suggest this thread be closed.

George is usually riding shotgun for the gay lobby and his purpose with these silly posts is probably to get this thread closed.  I suppose we could all do the same for topics when we want to impede sensible discussion.

This thread has been open for quite some time.  I don't believe it ought to be closed since the topic will certainly continue to throw up fresh information and reports.   

 

[Irish Hermit]

I am the Chairman of the Brotherhood of St. Tibulus.
I can't possibly be a lone crackpot with a keyboard because I am a Chairman of a Brotherhood.

Dear George,

People in the higher echelons of the Church see it a little more seriously.

A Priest in ROCOR hardly qualifies as "the higher echelons of the Church".
Unless one is subject to grandiose delusions.

He was one of the key negotiators for the union of Moscow and the Russian Church Abroad and enjoys great respect in both Churches.  His enquiry to Moscow about Finland and the homosexual issue would not have been made without approval from the Primate of the Russian Church Abroad.

 

[ozgeorge]

George is usually riding shotgun for the gay lobby

Is he now?
How wise you are.

his purpose with these silly posts is probably to get this thread closed.

Hell no. I'm having too much fun watching you guys.

the topic will certainly continue to throw up fresh information and reports.

No doubt it will- at least the kind of "reports" schismatic nutjobs would consider important.

 

[ozgeorge]

He was one of the key negotiators for the union of Moscow and the Russian Church Abroad

Which of the many Russian Churches Abroard was that? ROCOR-L? ROCOR-V? ROCIE? ......

 

[Irish Hermit]

George is usually riding shotgun for the gay lobby

Is he now?
How wise you are.

his purpose with these silly posts is probably to get this thread closed.

Hell no. I'm having too much fun watching you guys.

the topic will certainly continue to throw up fresh information and reports.

No doubt it will- at least the kind of "reports" schismatic nutjobs would consider important.

Will all the "schismatic nutjobs" in this thread stand up and take a bow.

 

[ozgeorge]

Will all the "schismatic nutjobs" in this thread stand up and take a bow.

Especially the ones who were in schism from those Sergianists in Moscow.

 

[Irish Hermit]

He was one of the key negotiators for the union of Moscow and the Russian Church Abroad

Which of the many Russian Churches Abroard was that?

I give you the credit of having a comprehensive knowledge of the Church and so this would seem a question designed merely to provoke.

The answer though is:  The Russian Church Abroad with which your Australian Greek Archbishop and your priest concelebrate and commune.  :-*

 

[ozgeorge]

Sadly, we haven't concelebrated with ROCOR.

 

[Irish Hermit]

Sadly, we haven't concelebrated with ROCOR.

You haven't?  Here in New Zealand it is quite normal for our clergy and the Greek clergy (including Metropolitan Amphilochios) to concelebrate.  Why isn't it happening in Oz?

 

[ozgeorge]

This is no way to speak to the Junior Vice President of the Brotherhood of St. Tibulus.

 

[Asteriktos]

It should have been closed from the start since no one can present anything but gossip and a "report" from a lay nobody.

Huh. And here I thought Orthodoxy embraced lay nobodies. I thought there was a history of lay nobodies in the Orthodox Church. So you are saying that a theologian is not one who truly prays, and one who truly prays is not a theologian? Apparently a theologian is someone that has "bishop" in front of their name, this title bestowing magical powers, with God depositing an encyclopedic knowledge into the cleric's head.

 

[ThePilgrim]

OzGeorge,

You seem oddly bent on disrupting the thread for no discernible purpose.  Your use of ad hominem attacks, misdirection, and childish behavior seem very strange, to say the least.

Is it true what another poster said, that you are in favor of gay unions within the Orthodox Church?  Is that the cause of such childishness?  If so, perhaps a substantive theological discussion on the teachings of the Church might be a better way to make progress in the issue, rather than such behavior.

In Christ,
John

 

[Tamara]

OzGeorge,

You seem oddly bent on disrupting the thread for no discernible purpose.  Your use of ad hominem attacks, misdirection, and childish behavior seem very strange, to say the least.

Is it true what another poster said, that you are in favor of gay unions within the Orthodox Church?  Is that the cause of such childishness?  If so, perhaps a substantive theological discussion on the teachings of the Church might be a better way to make progress in the issue, rather than such behavior.

In Christ,
John

If people would stop responding to him there would be no problem. He wants to disrupt and misdirect on this thread because he hates the message. There seem to be enough people on this thread who take the issues in Finland seriously to have a discussion.

 

[Asteriktos]

Welcome to the forum, ThePilgrim (John).

 

[ozgeorge]

He wants to disrupt and misdirect on this thread because he hates the message.

And of course, you love scandal don't you?

 

[ozgeorge]

OzGeorge,

You seem oddly bent on disrupting the thread for no discernible purpose.  Your use of ad hominem attacks, misdirection, and childish behavior seem very strange, to say the least.

Is it true what another poster said, that you are in favor of gay unions within the Orthodox Church?  Is that the cause of such childishness?  If so, perhaps a substantive theological discussion on the teachings of the Church might be a better way to make progress in the issue, rather than such behavior.

In Christ,
John

Welcome to the forum John. And thanks for the ad hominem.

 

[ThePilgrim]

That wasn't ad hominem, but thank you for your welcome

Ad hominem is implying that a person's arguments are invalid because of something about them as a person.

Now, will you please answer my question?  Are you, in fact, in favor of gay unions within the Orthodox Church?  Would you be willing to engage on a substantive discussion at the issue at hand?

The uncharitable assumptions about the Brotherhood of St. Kosmas, which fly in the face of the evidence, serve no purpose and would probably be best avoided.  For that matter, the stereotypes about converts are probably also unnecessary, especially since most of the original people raising these concerns are Russian, Greek, and Finnish cradle Orthodox Christians.

In Christ,
John

 

[augustin717]

If you're referring to the "Stop the Orthodox Gay Cult" thing, they actually have 99 people. And fwiw, they have an OCA bishop as a member, Bp. Melchisedek (Pleska)

.
I believe it is quite ridiculous that a bishop would have a Facebook account on the first place and even more ridiculous that he would adhere to online groups-no matter what those groups are about- and sign online petitions etc.
How does he participate there, as a bishop, or just as the citizen Pleska?

 

[SolEX01]

If you're referring to the "Stop the Orthodox Gay Cult" thing, they actually have 99 people. And fwiw, they have an OCA bishop as a member, Bp. Melchisedek (Pleska)

.
I believe it is quite ridiculous that a bishop would have a Facebook account on the first place and even more ridiculous that he would adhere to online groups-no matter what those groups are about- and sign online petitions etc.

Met. Jonah signed the Manhattan Declaration.  The OCA Hierarchs give the impression that they are "up to speed" with social networking sites like Facebook.

How does he participate there, as a bishop, or just as the citizen Pleska?

There is no such thing as citizen Pleska ... anything else would be digressing from this thread.  :angel:

What is the point of this thread anyway and what can we as lay people do about it, if anything at all?  ???

 

[observer]

LOL OzGeorgi is trolling.  The Rainbow rev is coming to Orthodoxy, don't doubt that!!

 

[Asteriktos]

I believe it is quite ridiculous that a bishop would have a Facebook account on the first place and even more ridiculous that he would adhere to online groups-no matter what those groups are about- and sign online petitions etc.
How does he participate there, as a bishop, or just as the citizen Pleska?

The times, they are a changin'  8)